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[Class Rep] Werewolf Feedback Thread

  • Mr_Wolfe
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    No tab targeting on consoles. That was always a LTP issue though. You deal with a swarm of pets the same way you deal with a swarm of adds when you need to focus the boss. If a player can't do that, it's on them--but all those players whine on the forums. (And I suspect a few of them might be devs, given the sheer maliciousness of this latest update.)
  • FenrisWolf1136
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    Mr_Wolfe wrote: »
    No tab targeting on consoles. That was always a LTP issue though. You deal with a swarm of pets the same way you deal with a swarm of adds when you need to focus the boss. If a player can't do that, it's on them--but all those players whine on the forums. (And I suspect a few of them might be devs, given the sheer maliciousness of this latest update.)

    Press and hold R3... allows you to hard target. Not as convenient but still works. (For ps4 anyways. Not sure about xbox)
    Edited by FenrisWolf1136 on August 15, 2019 12:48AM
    PvE werewolf player since day 1. Working towards completing all end game content with a werewolf because it is a valid endgame playstyle. Cp 830+
  • Tommy_The_Gun
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    cmvet wrote: »
    Qbiken wrote: »
    Chrlynsch wrote: »
    @Nefas has chimed in a few times in the werewolf threads since pts started and new reps announced.

    But who knows how frequently the reps actually get to relay the information and feedback they have gathered.

    He appears to agree with the nerfs and hasn't played WW in years, so really he's the opposite of a WW class rep.

    you can ask any "pve-rep" and they´ll all say werewolf is overperforming to a certain degree, even though werewolf has never been used in any serious raiding scene.....

    Really sad that none of the reps (or devs) have little to no insight in neither the PvE or PvP perspective of werewolf, hence why the feedback and responses to werewolf get so skewed.

    If werewolves are currently over performing in PVE i guess I'm playing them wrong. Name me a PVE trial where a group is specifically looking for werewolves because they over perform compared to other classes. A werewolf dps is about 15-20k lower than current stam classes running in trials. You cant tank as a ww, and you can only heal yourself, so dps it is.

    If you are talking solo pve then I'm not sure how we "over perform". Yes we can be tank in VMA, yet ww scores are significantly less on the leaderboards. A Sorc ww is the highest dps, yet even in fast flawless runs my scores are 50k lower than other sorcs running vma. How are the other sorcs not "over performing"?

    Unfortunately, when it comes to class reps, most of them are blinded by "elitism". They only look at WW from a perspective of Target dummy & Blood Moon Set (light attack speed set). Even though WW is doing (like you have said) 15 - 20K less dmg, on average, often it is 2x times less than non-ww. And that is really sad. WW absolutely have to use specific sets to even come close to a "DPS threshold" to be considered "OK". Non other "classes" have to do so. They have plenty of easy to get gear available to them. Looking at things only from one side is never good. I mean ZOS did this, this patch (they made balance changes looking at the game from only one perspective). Just look at the reception of the patch. Pretty much everyone that is reasonable thinks it is one of the worst update (balance wise).

    Small bonus: Have you tried to do one-bar sorc DPS build, based on overload & Blood Moon Set (WW light attack speed set) ? The results may surprise you as you will be able to deal similar (or maybe higher) dps than WW using only one bar with no "classic" ulti. Sounds familiar right ? ;)
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on August 15, 2019 2:33PM
  • FenrisWolf1136
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    Mr_Wolfe wrote: »
    Mr_Wolfe wrote: »
    No tab targeting on consoles. That was always a LTP issue though. You deal with a swarm of pets the same way you deal with a swarm of adds when you need to focus the boss. If a player can't do that, it's on them--but all those players whine on the forums. (And I suspect a few of them might be devs, given the sheer maliciousness of this latest update.)

    Press and hold R3... allows you to hard target. Not as convenient but still works. (For ps4 anyways. Not sure about xbox)

    Yeah, I know about that and it does work on Xbox, but there's no way to cycle through targets the way you can on PC. They get all the training wheels nifty features. I'm curious if the non-targetable direwolves will still block right stick targeting, or if you'll be able to highlight/lock-on to werewolf players through them now.

    As for DPS, like I've said before I don't know how guys like Alcast got the numbers they claimed. The dev's are really missing the mark by continuing to treat werewolf like a class, when it's much more limited than that. Werewolves have an extremely narrow toolkit compared to any other build in the game and that needs to be taken into account when trying to balance them.

    I agree. Most of the cries for werewolf nerfs seem to come from those that don't play the builds or if they do, its not very long. We don't hit as hard, are severely limited, and lose 60% (rough estimate) of any dps in a second just by falling into human form. Yet we get called cheese because we don't have the skills for a 2 bar style rotation that hits 25k + under normal class builds and don't have near the range.

    Add to it no response or even a "hey we see this" from the devs this pts. Bugs that don't get fixed for years but new loot crates every season. Really instills confidence in the direction the game is heading.
    PvE werewolf player since day 1. Working towards completing all end game content with a werewolf because it is a valid endgame playstyle. Cp 830+
  • cmvet
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    I would like to see some improvements in our transformation degradation. I hate popping out of ww due to a "unusually long load time", or hell a normally long load screen in vMA when I grab a chest, or a random load screen in cyrodiil when I walk near a keep ect. They should just make the degradation stop while you are in load screens similar to how it does when you die and are waiting to be resurrected.
  • TiZzA93
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    Im a console player and im truly disappointed with this patch i love my WW character and it is in no way OP compared to every other dps spec. Ww is my lowest dps, my stamcro, magblade, stamsorc, magdk all hit alot higher. Pvp u just get focused by everyone so u have to build tankier but then u loose some damge, seems to me ww got nerfed because under 50 cyrodil/bgs.
  • ccfeeling
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    TiZzA93 wrote: »
    Im a console player and im truly disappointed with this patch i love my WW character and it is in no way OP compared to every other dps spec. Ww is my lowest dps, my stamcro, magblade, stamsorc, magdk all hit alot higher. Pvp u just get focused by everyone so u have to build tankier but then u loose some damge, seems to me ww got nerfed because under 50 cyrodil/bgs.

    Pvp > pve
    Adapt
  • Mr_Wolfe
    Mr_Wolfe
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    ccfeeling wrote: »
    Pvp > pve
    Adapt

    Disagree entirely. If I wanted a laggy circle jerk with no dialogue I'd go to a swinger's club. :p

    PVP is only a small fraction of the content in this game and a good portion of the user base isn't interested in it. It's never been the main draw of ESO and the devs' disproportionate focus on it is another of their many boggling decisions.
    Edited by Mr_Wolfe on August 17, 2019 7:10PM
  • Aznox
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    Mr_Wolfe wrote: »
    ccfeeling wrote: »
    Pvp > pve
    Adapt

    Disagree entirely. If I wanted a laggy circle jerk with no dialogue I'd go to a swinger's club. :p

    PVP is only a small fraction of the content in this game and a good portion of the user base isn't interested in it. It's never been the main draw of ESO and the devs' disproportionate focus on it is another of their many boggling decisions.

    As someone who spends 95+% of his playtime doing PvP activities, i really don't know where you get the feeling that devs have "a disproportionate focus on PvP".

    If i had to throw a wild guess, i'd say that PvP represents 20-30% of overall play time, and less that 10% of overall dev time.
    Aznox
    PC EU
    Khajiit Orc Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf
    Currently enjoys a bit of loneliness in Shor CP Imperial City
    Battleground regular and Dueling addict
    Theorycrafting enthusiast
    CP1000+ club
  • Jaraal
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    TiZzA93 wrote: »
    seems to me ww got nerfed because under 50 cyrodil/bgs.

    TBH I think it got nerfed because a few folks were claiming that WW turned vMA into "easy mode". Obviously they aren't going to adjust vMA, so I believe they actively nerf any situation players stumble upon that even hints at trivializing their pet arena project.

    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Mr_Wolfe
    Mr_Wolfe
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    Aznox wrote: »
    Mr_Wolfe wrote: »
    ccfeeling wrote: »
    Pvp > pve
    Adapt

    Disagree entirely. If I wanted a laggy circle jerk with no dialogue I'd go to a swinger's club. :p

    PVP is only a small fraction of the content in this game and a good portion of the user base isn't interested in it. It's never been the main draw of ESO and the devs' disproportionate focus on it is another of their many boggling decisions.

    As someone who spends 95+% of his playtime doing PvP activities, i really don't know where you get the feeling that devs have "a disproportionate focus on PvP".

    If i had to throw a wild guess, i'd say that PvP represents 20-30% of overall play time, and less that 10% of overall dev time.

    From the fact that complaints from PvPers drive the majority of balance changes in this game, while PvE related feedback is pointedly ignored. Changes are frequently made based on PvP feedback with no consideration for how those changes will affect PvE. Meanwhile, there are major, progress-halting bugs in PvE dungeons and questlines that have gone unfixed and largely un-adressed for years.
    Jaraal wrote: »
    TiZzA93 wrote: »
    seems to me ww got nerfed because under 50 cyrodil/bgs.

    TBH I think it got nerfed because a few folks were claiming that WW turned vMA into "easy mode". Obviously they aren't going to adjust vMA, so I believe they actively nerf any situation players stumble upon that even hints at trivializing their pet arena project.

    If only it had.

    I'll admit it's pure speculation as to why the devs made the changes they have. (Dementia, maybe?) But for my money there were a lot more posts and threads complaining about pack leaders in BG than there were people claiming WW made vet maelstrom too easy.
    Edited by Mr_Wolfe on August 18, 2019 2:03AM
  • cmvet
    cmvet
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    Mr_Wolfe wrote: »
    Aznox wrote: »
    Mr_Wolfe wrote: »
    ccfeeling wrote: »
    Pvp > pve
    Adapt

    Disagree entirely. If I wanted a laggy circle jerk with no dialogue I'd go to a swinger's club. :p

    PVP is only a small fraction of the content in this game and a good portion of the user base isn't interested in it. It's never been the main draw of ESO and the devs' disproportionate focus on it is another of their many boggling decisions.

    As someone who spends 95+% of his playtime doing PvP activities, i really don't know where you get the feeling that devs have "a disproportionate focus on PvP".

    If i had to throw a wild guess, i'd say that PvP represents 20-30% of overall play time, and less that 10% of overall dev time.

    From the fact that complaints from PvPers drive the majority of balance changes in this game, while PvE related feedback is pointedly ignored. Changes are frequently made based on PvP feedback with no consideration for how those changes will affect PvE. Meanwhile, there are major, progress-halting bugs in PvE dungeons and questlines that have gone unfixed and largely un-adressed for years.
    Jaraal wrote: »
    TiZzA93 wrote: »
    seems to me ww got nerfed because under 50 cyrodil/bgs.

    TBH I think it got nerfed because a few folks were claiming that WW turned vMA into "easy mode". Obviously they aren't going to adjust vMA, so I believe they actively nerf any situation players stumble upon that even hints at trivializing their pet arena project.

    If only it had.

    I'll admit it's pure speculation as to why the devs made the changes they have. (Dementia, maybe?) But for my money there were a lot more posts and threads complaining about pack leaders in BG than there were people claiming WW made vet maelstrom too easy.

    So I will be the first to admit that WW makes vMA very easy as I have made posts about it and shown videos on non-ideal builds doing it. You can take an unskilled player like myself, give me a 1 bar, tanky dps machine, and I can ignore a lot of vMA mechanics by turning it into a dps race. But, i guarantee these change were not because of 1 single PVE aspect of the game.

    A very big area where WW was dominant is <50 and non-cp Cyrodiil and in BG's, when dealing with people who don't know how to counter a WW. Where are a lot of new players PVPing? <50 and non-cp cyrodiil and BG's. What do new pvp players not like? Getting rolled by a tanky dps machine that they can not figure out a counter for. What is a WW in those areas? A Tanky DPS machine with minimal resource issues. Who does ZOS cater to and who cries the loudest? New players. Thus WW pummeling in this patch.
  • Mr_Wolfe
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    You have a good point about new players coming in and getting wrecked by werewolves in <50 BGs and no-cp cyrodiil, though I'd argue that's less about werewolves themselves and more about a difference in skill. In my experience, werewolf takes a lot of work to make viable, especially because it lacks the tools so many other classes have. Highly skilled players 'slumming it' are liable to wreck their competition no matter what they play. Not to mention that a lot of those angry posts were from single players in a PUG group who got matched up against a coordinated team.

    As for vet maelstrom, I've spent too much time swearing and punching my couch to this week to agree with you there. Just being a werewolf does not make vMA 'easy.' It's still frustratingly hard even for a werewolf with a pretty good build and literally years of practice. Again, if you're finding it easy, I'd say that has more to do with your skill as a player. I'd be curious to see what you're running though.
    Edited by Mr_Wolfe on August 18, 2019 5:02AM
  • cmvet
    cmvet
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    Mr_Wolfe wrote: »
    You have a good point about new players coming in and getting wrecked by werewolves in <50 BGs and no-cp cyrodiil, though I'd argue that's less about werewolves themselves and more about a difference in skill. In my experience, werewolf takes a lot of work to make viable, especially because it lacks the tools so many other classes have. Highly skilled players 'slumming it' are liable to wreck their competition no matter what they play. Not to mention that a lot of those angry posts were from single players in a PUG group who got matched up against a coordinated team.

    As for vet maelstrom, I've spent too much time swearing and punching my couch to this week to agree with you there. Just being a werewolf does not make vMA 'easy.' It's still frustratingly hard even for a werewolf with a pretty good build and literally years of practice. Again, if you're finding it easy, I'd say that has more to do with your skill as a player. I'd be curious to see what you're running though.

    Generally I run 2 dps sets and a tanky set. I use Chudan as my tanky set as it is just that good for a WW in vMA. I prefer relequen and Tzogvin as my dps sets, but have done it with hundings and viper (viper really is only like 1k dps less than bloodmoon or tzogvin), and I'm sure automaton would be good too.
    I prefer doing it on my woodelf dk because i do really like the extra 2 meter range (I am looking forward to that change in buildbreaker update) for my attacks but my highest point runs have been on my orc sorc. Usually can flawless around 560k (still much less than the good sorc builds out there). I've run an argonian warden (full run video), and a kahjit necro through pretty easy as well. You do still have to know some of the mechanics, and avoid the random lag, rng BS that pops up in vMA. During the event it was so laggy that stage 7 made my wife laugh because of the words flying out my mouth. Here is a few tips (short vid)I posted.
    Edited by cmvet on August 18, 2019 5:22AM
  • Mr_Wolfe
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    Thanks, appreciate the info!

    I've been running vMA on my argonian stamblade. He's been my main in both PvE and PvP for several years, and the only one of my characters who's even close to being ready to tackle vMA. So far the easiest time I've had was wearing Spriggan's, Automaton, and Iceheart, though I usually carry a few extra sets to swap around if I'm having trouble on a certain area. Unfortunately I don't have the right pieces to be able to run Chudan's with medium armor and still have a 5/1/1 setup.

    Don't think I've ever cleared without dying 15+ times, let alone getting flawless--though this last time I made it to the last stage with only a couple deaths before getting my vitality bonus wiped out by a really bad string of lag/desync issues.
  • cmvet
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    yeah, sometimes you will get a bad run or lag/desync. Try running viper or relequen instead of spriggan, and use the lover for the penetration if you need it. I now run shadow mundus when i use tzogvin's.

    When buildbreaker is released on ps4 I'll see how dpS and vma compare to current with exact same gear. I know I, like everyone else will have to change ulti morph to beserker for any decent PVE damage. I will miss the direwolves holding ago for me. It might make farming sewer bosses a bit more difficult as well.
    Edited by cmvet on August 18, 2019 6:22AM
  • Mr_Wolfe
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    I'm currently running Lover, though I don't actually have a full set of relequen. Got tired of farming it after the billionth PUG group or so. :/
  • Sharee
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    [nvm]
    Edited by Sharee on August 18, 2019 7:49AM
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