[Class Rep] Templar Feedback Thread

Minno

Drdeath20 wrote: »

This thread has existed for years. ZoS doesn’t care. I feel this needs to be said.

Every class has some sub optimal, poorly thought out skill. These skills are soo niche that it make’s me wonder if ZoS even has any idea how to play their own game. Then again the game has changed from its original design. When all is said and done nearly all PvE roles are homogenized by a few very useful world skills and armor sets.

Templars are just the winners in terms of having the most amount of sub-optimal skills, ultimates and passives in their class toolkits.

Just make another class, move on and accept that what could have been will never be.

It's not that they care, at this point in the game the direction shifted across 3 game design heads.

I will take any changes around a lore/thematic stance, but i know with Gilliam/Brian at the helm its going to be a more about function first form second. Not a bad thing just after all the MMO's ive played over the years and recently had deep dives on wow classic/new world, I realized the lack of a lore based decision basis can really suck the soul out of a game.

I think templar shows that in a way.

Minno

techyeshic wrote: »

There's a name I have not seen for a minute

Im back baby! Though im trying to make a fire staff magplar work ATM and they really made heavy attack on fire staff feel REALLY clunky. Not sure if that is the lag or there was an update that forced animations a bit.

mmtaniac

Only time templar feel good was patch Scalebreak(BIG DOT PATCH) maybe im wrong with patch name but this was best feeling patch for templar .

techyeshic

mmtaniac wrote: »

Only time templar feel good was patch Scalebreak(BIG DOT PATCH) maybe im wrong with patch name but this was best feeling patch for templar .

I'm not sure I would want that now with plague breaker around. Solo, fine. But keep fights would be nasty.

mmtaniac

techyeshic wrote: »

show previous quotes

mmtaniac wrote: »

Only time templar feel good was patch Scalebreak(BIG DOT PATCH) maybe im wrong with patch name but this was best feeling patch for templar .

I'm not sure I would want that now with plague breaker around. Solo, fine. But keep fights would be nasty.

Yup , right now buffing dot's will be disaster. Its ok as it is.
Im just tell how good templar feel at that time it was at begining of elsweyr how much patches ago.

ealdwin

mmtaniac wrote: »

show previous quotes

techyeshic wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Only time templar feel good was patch Scalebreak(BIG DOT PATCH) maybe im wrong with patch name but this was best feeling patch for templar .

I'm not sure I would want that now with plague breaker around. Solo, fine. But keep fights would be nasty.

Yup , right now buffing dot's will be disaster. Its ok as it is.
Im just tell how good templar feel at that time it was at begining of elsweyr how much patches ago.

If memory serves, while there have been some positive changes since then, there have also been a few significant ones that may contribute to what you're talking about:
- PL/POTL changed from copying group damage to solo damage
- POTL used to be one of the few sources of Minor Fracture, since then Fracture combined with Breach and Minor Breach has been made much more available
- Jabs animation and aiming has been messed with a few times since then
- Jabs also used to count as DoT damage & Direct Damage, allowing it to benefit from Thaumaturge
- Ritual of Retribution has also been tampered with
- Templar around that time also relied on more snares to keep people within their house. Snares overall have been lessened, especially Templar's. PVP has become more mobile and Templar hasn't been adjusted to keep up.
- Burning Light changes
- Javelin also used to have a longer range. It's a small one, but it hurt a bit

Minno

ealdwin wrote: »

show previous quotes

mmtaniac wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

mmtaniac wrote: »

Only time templar feel good was patch Scalebreak(BIG DOT PATCH) maybe im wrong with patch name but this was best feeling patch for templar .

I'm not sure I would want that now with plague breaker around. Solo, fine. But keep fights would be nasty.

Yup , right now buffing dot's will be disaster. Its ok as it is.
Im just tell how good templar feel at that time it was at begining of elsweyr how much patches ago.

If memory serves, while there have been some positive changes since then, there have also been a few significant ones that may contribute to what you're talking about:
- PL/POTL changed from copying group damage to solo damage
- POTL used to be one of the few sources of Minor Fracture, since then Fracture combined with Breach and Minor Breach has been made much more available
- Jabs animation and aiming has been messed with a few times since then
- Jabs also used to count as DoT damage & Direct Damage, allowing it to benefit from Thaumaturge
- Ritual of Retribution has also been tampered with
- Templar around that time also relied on more snares to keep people within their house. Snares overall have been lessened, especially Templar's. PVP has become more mobile and Templar hasn't been adjusted to keep up.
- Burning Light changes
- Javelin also used to have a longer range. It's a small one, but it hurt a bit

The burning light change was very negative for templar, the change was very obviously done to balance jabs but at huge nerf to other AS abilities. The rest you can actually make do with because in a way there is a bit of a cap for alot of those systems anyway (snares specifically) that made it frustratingly redundant. Probably why they nerfed the major/minor system altogether.

If you go back to the kit from 2014 or even beta, it was clear the devs wanted this to be a class where you stay in one place, but make it a huge pain for anyone to step into the area he or she is holding. We just didnt know how to play it back then, and I wish we had a private server of 2014 ESO (devs can you let us have that or does the 2014 data not exist?!) But then again the classes at launch were more along the design of DAoC than an elder scrolls game.

Either way I still have issues with the fact ESO and a few other mmos make changes based on a specific gamemode instead of a lore or thematic instance. Like if playerbase thought certain abilities were weak, I would have passed them through an "Elder Scrolls" lore filter, starting with deity associated with templars (stendarr and someone else, I can't remember from the class books in game), then followed up with the type of magic commonly used with the class.

There is even a book that suggests the mage build start to add schools of magic. And this is their wording on each magic tree (in bold are the trees and type of magic used in the templar tree):

Spoiler

For this reason, I propose that we adopt the Shad Astula disciplines, and reorganize the Mages Guild study program into the following schools of magic:

ALCHEMY: The study of the magical virtues of different forms of matter, their effects, combinations, and recombinations. To include the concoction of potions, elixirs, and magical draughts.

ALTERATION: The distortion of local reality through direct imposition of the mage's will. To include spells of paralysis, water breathing, water walking, lock opening, and personal elemental shields such as flame cloaks.

CONJURATION: The summoning and binding of spirits from Oblivion or Aetherius. To include soul trapping, spells that conjure Daedra or other creatures, spells to banish same, summoning of bound weapons and armor, as well as (for classification purposes) the forbidden necromantic arts of reanimation, conjuration, and manipulation of the undead.

DESTRUCTION: The splintering of material bonds by the direct application of force, typically elemental in nature. To include damaging spells of flame, frost, shock, and disintegration, as well as magic that drains essence or personal attributes.

ILLUSION: Altering perception in oneself or others. To include spells of light, invisibility, fear, frenzy, and silence, as well as magic that affects morale and obedience.

MYSTICISM: The class of spells used to alter the nature of magic itself. To include effects that dispel or absorb both spells and the magicka that feeds them, as well as telekinesis (which fits here as well as anywhere).

RESTORATION: The opposite of destruction, magic that resists damage or restores wholeness by reknitting the damaged material. To include wards, healing, curing of disease and poison, physical fortification, and the turning of undead (a forced purification effect).

THAUMATURGY: Magic that affects the will and personal state of mind. To include spells that calm or charm others, reflection of or resistance to magic, as well as levitation, which involves the personal rejection of gravity.

So for something like retooling sun shield, I would have removed the dmg component, and instead boosted the restorative aspect. Maybe in that instance blazing shield still gets 4% stronger based on nearby enemies, but it soaks dmg and then bursts into healing.

Or going back to eclipse, instead of making it a self buff heal that converts dmg (should have been sun shield), make both morphs a Thaumaturgic reflect that applies on a target, apply an Alternation paralysis or shield against magical attacks.

The possibilities are endless when you take a lore based filter first. The gameplay can come next, and sometimes in an MMO true balance is actually the opposite; certain things have to be terrible in order for things to be really powerful otherwise everything is the same, which isnt good for balance.

Stx

The game changes so drastically from patch to patch, things like radiant aura spreading minor magicka steal become instantly useless. Lots of skills become redundant with minor changes.. power of the light used to be great utility... until sundered status effect.

Soris

Minno wrote: »

If you go back to the kit from 2014 or even beta, it was clear the devs wanted this to be a class where you stay in one place, but make it a huge pain for anyone to step into the area he or she is holding. We just didnt know how to play it back then, and I wish we had a private server of 2014 ESO (devs can you let us have that or does the 2014 data not exist?!)

Man I would like to play 2014 version of templar and dk. Wish we had a privite server somewhere! And not surprisingly sorc and nb since then haven't changed much -powerwise, they get better in fact- but the templar and dk have changed a lot. They kept giving everything squeezed from us to the warden and necro and sold them for money. That sucks!

Minno

Stx wrote: »

The game changes so drastically from patch to patch, things like radiant aura spreading minor magicka steal become instantly useless. Lots of skills become redundant with minor changes.. power of the light used to be great utility... until sundered status effect.

It is why the buff system is a failure. It tries to quickly blanket change a standard set of rules but instead causes those types of issues.

Hotdog_23

Minno wrote: »

show previous quotes

techyeshic wrote: »

There's a name I have not seen for a minute

Im back baby! Though im trying to make a fire staff magplar work ATM and they really made heavy attack on fire staff feel REALLY clunky. Not sure if that is the lag or there was an update that forced animations a bit.

Really wish ice and fire staff would work the same as lightning staffs and be a channel.

Plus, on your list under the Spoiler you didn’t give anything for the Templar tank. We need some sort of lock down skill or snare in our toolkit somewhere.

Also be nice if POL was changed to major Breech from minor since it is not really needed in trial or dungeons. Even better if it healed also to help give Stamplar a little more staying power in PVP.

Stay safe and happy Holidays

Minno

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

There's a name I have not seen for a minute

Im back baby! Though im trying to make a fire staff magplar work ATM and they really made heavy attack on fire staff feel REALLY clunky. Not sure if that is the lag or there was an update that forced animations a bit.

Really wish ice and fire staff would work the same as lightning staffs and be a channel.

Plus, on your list under the Spoiler you didn’t give anything for the Templar tank. We need some sort of lock down skill or snare in our toolkit somewhere.

Also be nice if POL was changed to major Breech from minor since it is not really needed in trial or dungeons. Even better if it healed also to help give Stamplar a little more staying power in PVP.

Stay safe and happy Holidays

yea moslty because im pvp main and I don't see templar as a pure tank. From a designer perspective I think it's great design if you have a tri-role game to have classes that are locked out of one of the tri roles in favor of awesome kits for the other two. In this case I always see templar as a 2h swinging heavy armor wearing support dps/healer more so than a tank.

I also think I argued that eclipse should be better designed for unstable core and have it immobilze on the first step with no extra steps that snare or cc. I liked that Crown used to say he would play his templar as a tank healer and bring 3 DPS to a dungeon, which is something unique about templar tanks that despite lacking in pure tank abilities can take on the function of healer and tank at the same time.

But I am open to templar tanks getting things if the devs keep going tri-role unlocked for all classes as a design philosophy!

Minno

And I went back to jabs after watching my fire staff heavy attack take longer than a jabs channel to complete. And I saw that pvp templar build yesterday that uses a different skill loadout than I was used to playing in 2018. It actually plays more fluid; 2h/resto staff is a very potent combo for pvp templar now.

Tanis-Stormbinder

My pain point is not having Major Sorcery in our class skills or passives.

deleted221205-002626

Tanis-Stormbinder wrote: »

My pain point is not having Major Sorcery in our class skills or passives.

u get it with degeneraton, mages guild

Minno

sinnereso wrote: »

show previous quotes

Tanis-Stormbinder wrote: »

My pain point is not having Major Sorcery in our class skills or passives.

u get it with degeneraton, mages guild

alliance pots. and if you use dark convergence set you can replace vamps bane with shards and get back that AOE stun we always wanted

mmtaniac

Major Brutality and Sorcery ,those two buffs all class should have Necromancer too ,because without them you can't combine some weapons. On magicka is easier on stamina it requires specific weapon.

Minno

mmtaniac wrote: »

Major Brutality and Sorcery ,those two buffs all class should have Necromancer too ,because without them you can't combine some weapons. On magicka is easier on stamina it requires specific weapon.

I disagree. Now that they have it unlocked on balanced warrior, you can argue it is not as needed as much as before.

I would rather see the class get some juicy stand your ground defense based mechanics back to compensate for the major sorcery. You want classes to have access to different things. It actually creates good build diversity and in turn makes each playstyle vastly different. That is something you can't really see on metrics like DPS meters and such.

mmtaniac

Must have buffs or debuffs on class should be major breach or major brutality ,sorcery one of those.Class should have at least one. Templar not have any of those. I have only useless minor breach(useless thanks to new sunder debuff).
I have only 7k weapon damage but still it feel like nothing, because i can't use it without proper defense and healing on stamplar. Staying in place is guaranteed death on stamplar ,but healing while move not work too ,compared to other classes.

Soris

The answer is Sun Shield. An update to that skill can solve all of the defensive problems and being stuck on back bar of templar.

Now they made Living Dark pretty much how Blazing Sheild being widely used years ago. That's a very good start. But only a start. The heal over time is great but the effect itself looks awful.

If you make Sun Shield to give additional effects like any useful major/minor buff, or just raw additional shield value like how it was years ago and return enough damage back to attackers to make them stop attacking you for a split second, you will fix the issue and there won't be any buffs needed for defensive options.

mmtaniac

Living dark feel shi.... for me it's healing not defense , you can't mitigate damage you only heal damage you get. Cost too much on stamplar i can't invest that much in magicka regen ,because that way i lost too much in other things. Stamplar motif is complete disaster and tankplar too , only working specs on templar are healer and magicka . I don't care about pve. I like how healing and defense self feel on stam DK i use I Hardened Armor and Inguenous Shield with 30k hp + vigor and even without purge i can self heal easy + ult sometimes.

Soris

Living Dark starts to shine once you have over 6k spell damage. You can get 6k+ tooltip value with that much spell damage, which is great but even with this you still need another heal over time like restro staff mutagen(?) (forgot the new name) on top of extended ritual.

These make magplar tanky af but only with one specific build. You gotta use the restoration staff on your backbar. It's kinda okayish because it works very good but it really makes me feel severely pigeon-holed to play one specific build like this and honestly that's not so cool. Because once you unslot mutagen and unequip that staff, it doesn't performs well.

I think another option for defense is needed, which is again Sun Shield.. Because it is there already. It works great in PvE and once worked great in PvP too! For years that battle spirit debuff is making it useless, and it needs to be updated. That Sun Shield synergise perfectly well with other templar skills and it perfectly fits the style. "An unyielding holy knight who wields the power of gods, and once in trouble he/she calls upon gods' strenght to protect him/herself and banish foolish foes who dares to come close him/her."

Make that templar house great again!

Just update the skill for PvP. Battle Spirit is double dipping especially the Blazing Shield. Both the shield value and returned damage is 50% reduced by battle spirit. Once power of the light/purifying light used to be affected by battle spirit like this too and you guys fix the problem and now it works great thanks for that. But Sun Shield and morphs needs the same treatment too!

mmtaniac

House should be option for templar not must ,magicka version can work as house (you have damage healing) ,but stamina templar should be mobile version wchich skill work always while you move and heal you when you move.
Rune should heal while move when your main stat is stamina ,same with ritual healing ,heal you still after leaving circle. This way templar get option. Stay in circle as magicka ,run as stamina.

Zama666

gariondavey wrote: »

show previous quotes

Zama666 wrote: »

Any suggestions on running a hybrid Templar?

I get so much variety...just not a lot of damage...

Just play magplar in medium with a 2h or dw front bar. Very hybrid-esque but totally normal these days.

Alternatively, do stamplar but with an ice staff back bar

Hi @gariondavey

Appreciate the feedback...
So Attributes - all into Magicka?

rexagamemnon

Puncturing sweeps should proc major prophecy
As well as reduced cost

gariondavey

rexagamemnon wrote: »

Puncturing sweeps should proc major prophecy
As well as reduced cost

Yeah then jabs should heal

gariondavey

Zama666 wrote: »

show previous quotes

gariondavey wrote: »

Zama666 wrote: »

Any suggestions on running a hybrid Templar?

I get so much variety...just not a lot of damage...

Just play magplar in medium with a 2h or dw front bar. Very hybrid-esque but totally normal these days.

Alternatively, do stamplar but with an ice staff back bar

Hi @gariondavey

Appreciate the feedback...
So Attributes - all into Magicka?

You want like 29-30k hp in bgs, so get that and then points into magicka

Faint_One

1、temp tank still like a dummywood.Better with a soft control skill or health based burst heal

2、temp dps still stack in 4Skills for Highest Damage，but from stamplar change to magplar（blockade PL traps Jabs=122k）
too much damage in only 1 skill（about 43% added burning light because there is no spear）
positive is it EZ to do，negative is if you hard to weave jab or in some ranged position，you nearly lose all your damage.

mmtaniac

Faint_One wrote: »

1、temp tank still like a dummywood.Better with a soft control skill or health based burst heal

2、temp dps still stack in 4Skills for Highest Damage，but from stamplar change to magplar（blockade PL traps Jabs=122k）
too much damage in only 1 skill（about 43% added burning light because there is no spear）
positive is it EZ to do，negative is if you hard to weave jab or in some ranged position，you nearly lose all your damage.

Jabs is nice skill ,but having all damage in one skill new burning light require jabs too work compared to old burning light where you have 25% chance to proc it. Burning light need changes to work with all possible DIRECT DAMAGE SKILLS in game 1stack per 1 direct damage skill attack.
I cast 4times in row Carve i get burning light proc this should work something like that , this way templar will get some flavor and more build options ,right now i must JABS JAB JAB .

Fabi95

mmtaniac wrote: »

Jabs is nice skill ,but having all damage in one skill new burning light require jabs too work compared to old burning light where you have 25% chance to proc it. Burning light need changes to work with all possible DIRECT DAMAGE SKILLS in game 1stack per 1 direct damage skill attack.

I agree, the "Burning Light" passive is very outdated and essentially wastes a class passive slot. For example, Sorcerer has this extra damage integrated (among extra sustain!) into the "Crystal Fragments" skill. Plus it is still random chance there, which can benefit Sorcerers a lot with the burst damage potential.

Meanwhile Templar is forced to use Spear Shards, Crescent Sweep and the Puncturing Sweep / Biting Jabs to actually benefit from this passive. If you don't use this combination or any of the skills, the "Burning Light" passive goes to waste. That passive skill is among why Templar is so locked into having to use spear skills in order to stay competitive. This shouldn't be necessary.

Hybridizing sets and the "Balanced Warrior" passive update was a nice step into the right direction so far. Hopefully this keeps going, because 2021 was a nice start for Templar improvements. It's just still far from optimal yet, when looking at various other skills of the Templar line (which I mentioned in previous posts).