[Class Rep] Templar Feedback Thread

NobleX35

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Where do you get 6/8 seconds. The buff only lasts for 3 seconds. Unless youre doing nothing but spamming jabs...the uptime is going to be pretty low.

Like I said:

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Put Spear Shards halfway through your rotation, separated from Sweeps by 1-2 other abilities, and you'll get 8% mitigation on everything with a really good uptime, at least 6 out of every 8 seconds.

You get 3 secs after any Aedric Spear ability cast. Just an off-the-cuff example:

DOT1 -> DOT2 -> Shards -> DOT3 -> HA -> Sweeps/Jabs

The 3 sec from Shards would cover you while applying DOT3 and the HA, then the 3 sec from Sweeps/Jabs would cover you while reapplying DOTs 1 and 2.

(Yes, Stamplars use Shards in PvE. It's low damage but good for other reasons outlined above already: Magicka dump, Burning Light procs, the synergy, and enabling passives, which now include the Spear Wall buff.)

You're only looking at this from a PvE dps perspective, and again this will not likely protect you when you actually need protecting.

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

If anything these changes effect us the most. I run nothing but speed pots on my stamplar

Then it affects "PvP Stamplars who are reliant on speed pots", not Templars in general or even Stamplars in general. My original statement that this patch is generally good for Templars isn't a statement about every single possible Templar build in the universe. It couldn't possibly be. I'm talking about most Templars. It's true for PvE Magplars, PvE Healers, PvE Stamplars, PvP Magplars, PvP Healers, and even the PvP Stamplars who were not reliant on speed pots. It's also good for Tankplars who can now get Minor Protection from Sun Shield and stam recovery from Rune. Pretty much everyone except your particular Stamplar build, I guess. I mean, sorry the generalization doesn't apply to you, but it's still generally true.

I don't want to keep arguing with you, but I disagree completely. I listed several examples and several scenarios where the majority of the changes are not "buffs," at least not for stamplars. There are definitely more changes that will benefit magplars, but overall the class just became more homogenized. Coming from a Stamplar perspective...I don't think the majority of changes will benefit stamplars either in pve or pvp. The only change that was good overall for stamplars, was that our sustain will be better. Nearly every other aspect of the class got nerfed.

radarsu

I generally agree with @NobleX35 predictions. We received a decent PvE buff, yet nothing for PvP. At least we didn't get nerfed like other classes.

Minno

radarsu wrote: »

I generally agree with @NobleX35 predictions. We received a decent PvE buff, yet nothing for PvP. At least we didn't get nerfed like other classes.

Restoring rune, while losing uptime on minor protection and lost vitality, bolsters your stamina Regen to help keep you from being perma cc'ed.

On live Templar doesn't have a stamina mechanic to avoid "Stam death" during combat, for both specs.

There are still painpoints, one of which is back since they nerfed speed pots; mobilty.

GC0

radarsu wrote: »

I generally agree with @NobleX35 predictions. We received a decent PvE buff, yet nothing for PvP. At least we didn't get nerfed like other classes.

Templars did get nerfed though. New evasion in PvP is going to hurt Templar lol.

Minno

GC0 wrote: »

radarsu wrote: »

I generally agree with @NobleX35 predictions. We received a decent PvE buff, yet nothing for PvP. At least we didn't get nerfed like other classes.

Templars did get nerfed though. New evasion in PvP is going to hurt Templar lol.

And magplar can't run the new evasion as easily either, without dropping sustain and or dmg for a tank set.
Stamplar could with medium armor, but it would feel like you are cannibalizing because your jabs/dawnbreaker is reduced by 25% but you are safer from other jabs/dawnbreakers lol.

technohic

Unstable Core is getting more play because it at least does damage even if the target CC breaks or is immune. Total dark should be made to where it does healing in the same way. Maybe it provides a HOT for the duration either way?

Diundriel

Make one of the shard Morphs or both stun again

Checkmath

Diundriel wrote: »

Make one of the shard Morphs or both stun again

I do not think shards is the right skill for this anymore. One is a sustain supporter, the other a dps skill. Both even will get their damage increased significantly. A month ago the devs talked about focused charge not having a minimal distance anymore, that would have been the right skill in my opinion. But it looks like this amazing idea got neglected during the PTS.

Solariken

Checkmath wrote: »

Diundriel wrote: »

Make one of the shard Morphs or both stun again

I do not think shards is the right skill for this anymore. One is a sustain supporter, the other a dps skill. Both even will get their damage increased significantly. A month ago the devs talked about focused charge not having a minimal distance anymore, that would have been the right skill in my opinion. But it looks like this amazing idea got neglected during the PTS.

Agreed, Templar has 2 excellent stuns with jav and Toppling. The min range removal on Toppling would really round out the kit.

eserras7b16_ESO

Hello.

I think we've got a huge problem now with the new Evasion. Jabs builds are dead because they might've been used in PvP now that you can turn, the damage increased a bit and so on, but people will run Evasion and that will counter us so hard. And in PvE other builds shine best since melee gameplay is being punished.

On the Magplar, I would really like to see Jabs back. It made my templar feel unique. Right now it feels like a "sorcerer" with blazing spear and purifying light instead of the sorcerer dots...

That's my main concern regarding templar right now. Must agree that on the tanking & stamplar department things look much better than they used to though!

eserras7b16_ESO

Checkmath wrote: »

Diundriel wrote: »

Make one of the shard Morphs or both stun again

I do not think shards is the right skill for this anymore. One is a sustain supporter, the other a dps skill. Both even will get their damage increased significantly. A month ago the devs talked about focused charge not having a minimal distance anymore, that would have been the right skill in my opinion. But it looks like this amazing idea got neglected during the PTS.

And this one, is such a nice idea. I am using charge to stun myself and if it wouldn't have minimal range it would be just perfect.

Vajrak

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

Hello.

I think we've got a huge problem now with the new Evasion. Jabs builds are dead because they might've been used in PvP now that you can turn, the damage increased a bit and so on, but people will run Evasion and that will counter us so hard. And in PvE other builds shine best since melee gameplay is being punished.

On the Magplar, I would really like to see Jabs back. It made my templar feel unique. Right now it feels like a "sorcerer" with blazing spear and purifying light instead of the sorcerer dots...

That's my main concern regarding templar right now. Must agree that on the tanking & stamplar department things look much better than they used to though!

The burning light procs are your friend. Also consider that Jabs is also giving you Minor Protection along with the heal from it, so it still holds a nice unique spot --- yes, lower damage if they are running evasion....but also receiving less damage while self-healing for using it. Is a decently fair trade.

winterbornb14_ESO

Why did you destroy Blazing shield damage in PvE due to PvP feedback its the only DPS for Health based tanks?

Revert Blazing shield damage back 2 Nerfs ago for PvE.......I don't give a *** about PvP since this is Elderscrolls not PUBG.

Shield needs to be based off max health otherwise you KILL the only health based tank build in the game.

Or do you like pissing of customers?

Jabbs_Giggity

I have not been on the PTS yet, but from everything I am reading and hearing, Stamplar was hit BAD! Nerf to expedition leaves the Stamplar nearly immobile, while change to evasion makes running jabs hit like a wet noodle...basically ZOS is forcing us to run the 2h meta with dizzy swing as our spammable...so not cool...
Magplar received decent buffs, but to get someone in that execute range will be difficult if not playing strictly from range. Won't really know until patch drops and can test. All of the changes to Templar sound great on paper, but actually running in PVP seems we will lose out on so much utility and burst...

Jeremy

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The purpose of this thread is to give you a place to post your current top two pain points with the Templar. Our new Class Representatives will be keeping a close eye on this thread, and will utilize it to gather additional feedback for the notes they’re currently compiling for their first meeting with the Dev Team next week. Please be sure and keep your post clear and succinct, and focus more on what is currently frustrating you rather than potential solutions. Thanks!

The nonsensical change to breath of life targeting, which now requires a target to be in front of you.

This makes it's difficult for a Templar healer to quickly heal players when they are scattered about dodging attacks and killing adds. It also doesn't compliment the use of Cleansing Ritual, which requires you to center yourself amidst the party meaning ranged damaged dealers are likely to be standing behind you, not in front.

The crappiness of a Templar's healing in none-cp PvP. All it does effectively is waste your magicka as you die that I can tell.

Vajrak

I was against the changes to Cleansing Ritual to begin with, despite having a timer, it was a much more efficient heal than Breath of Life ever was. Now it's absolute trash even for emergency usage. It used to be very easy to position it because you could place yourself between the ranged and utilize the LOS (Line of Sight) heals on the Tank without issue.

Blazing Shield still does respectable damage if you build towards it, and as it stands it is the only on-cast shield that gets an actual usefulness out of Bastion CP points. I'm still working it out, but I was able to get it to put out a reasonable enough 8-11k DPS.

Checkmath

Vajrak wrote: »

I was against the changes to Cleansing Ritual to begin with, despite having a timer, it was a much more efficient heal than Breath of Life ever was. Now it's absolute trash even for emergency usage. It used to be very easy to position it because you could place yourself between the ranged and utilize the LOS (Line of Sight) heals on the Tank without issue.

Blazing Shield still does respectable damage if you build towards it, and as it stands it is the only on-cast shield that gets an actual usefulness out of Bastion CP points. I'm still working it out, but I was able to get it to put out a reasonable enough 8-11k DPS.

What shield size did you get?

D0PAMINE

Sweeps has a weird delay at the end and im having issues weaving in a LA while using it. My damage is much better, but combat feels a bit slower.

datgladiatah

I think my biggest issue with the evasion changes was that sweeps was basically the only aoe spammable and it already was hard to aim/didn't do much damage. Is there any reason to keep that reduced damage per added target in pvp? Or should it be considered an aoe for the purpose of damage reduction if the aoe is already reduced after 1 target?

Vajrak

Checkmath wrote: »

What shield size did you get?

Stats: 29.1k HP
Magicka: 28.2k
Recovery (without Focus): 2115
My current shield (Blazing Shield) on a relatively low hp build (29.1k) is
Base (no targets):10,938
Fully surrounded(AoE area filled):13,038

Damage Output just now was 28.9k, with a 35.3k high (Craglorn Tomb, easiest place to get the full surround), 6.6k of that from Radiant, 6.5 Blazing Spear, 7.3k Sweeps, 2.9k Burning Light procs (which the shield can proc, as it is an aedric spear skill).

Radiant Ward would obviously be a little higher, but wouldn't proc as much damage for the extra 2% per target.

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Sweeps has a weird delay at the end and im having issues weaving in a LA while using it. My damage is much better, but combat feels a bit slower.

May be with your weave method -- try holding down the key for it, then tap, and release at the end of the animation. Since light attacks are executed on-click and skills are executed on-release, this makes a cleaner weave and removes that delay/lag issue.

datgladiatah wrote: »

I think my biggest issue with the evasion changes was that sweeps was basically the only aoe spammable and it already was hard to aim/didn't do much damage. Is there any reason to keep that reduced damage per added target in pvp? Or should it be considered an aoe for the purpose of damage reduction if the aoe is already reduced after 1 target?

It's a mixed bag here -- the AoE reduction does hurt, as it also reduces your healing, but Burning Light is a direct damage/non-reflect proc that you get 4 chances per sweep to get off.

Destyran

My two things with magical Templar I find the class absolutely fine except
1. We need mobility because speed pots really turn up a magplar.
2. We need a class version of mist form.

Solariken

Hey guys I'm wondering when we can start talking about what a disease magplar has become in BG's and discussing practical ways to fix it. Is it still too soon?

I don't want to be dogpiled by forumplars by speaking the truth, but we officially have a pretty serious problem on our hands.

SugaComa

Solariken wrote: »

Hey guys I'm wondering when we can start talking about what a disease magplar has become in BG's and discussing practical ways to fix it. Is it still too soon?

I don't want to be dogpiled by forumplars by speaking the truth, but we officially have a pretty serious problem on our hands.

Explain your self ...

Currently ... It's bleed build such as DKs and wardens and night blades that are plaguing battle grounds for me

I see very few magplar in relation to the number of magic build and the number of magic builds is far out weighed by stam builds

Minno

[

Solariken wrote: »

Hey guys I'm wondering when we can start talking about what a disease magplar has become in BG's and discussing practical ways to fix it. Is it still too soon?

I don't want to be dogpiled by forumplars by speaking the truth, but we officially have a pretty serious problem on our hands.

Lol they just got to a level where they are competitive (again).

Minno

SugaComa wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Hey guys I'm wondering when we can start talking about what a disease magplar has become in BG's and discussing practical ways to fix it. Is it still too soon?

I don't want to be dogpiled by forumplars by speaking the truth, but we officially have a pretty serious problem on our hands.

Explain your self ...

Currently ... It's bleed build such as DKs and wardens and night blades that are plaguing battle grounds for me

I see very few magplar in relation to the number of magic build and the number of magic builds is far out weighed by stam builds

There are some brutal setups in BGs, Templar is just coming back into competitiveness since dark brotherhood/thieves guild and that's what you are seeing.

Solariken

Minno wrote: »

[

Solariken wrote: »

Hey guys I'm wondering when we can start talking about what a disease magplar has become in BG's and discussing practical ways to fix it. Is it still too soon?

I don't want to be dogpiled by forumplars by speaking the truth, but we officially have a pretty serious problem on our hands.

Lol they just got to a level where they are competitive (again).

"Competitive" lol yeah ok.

Magplar is in an excellent place offensively now. Like, really excellent.

Defensively and in group play though, they are a scourge. Granted it's not specifically the magplar kit that is problematic per se, but the array of synergistic elements that come together to form the disgusting soup.

Have you seen the jerkplar BG 4-stacks yet? It's about to be the next big scandal.

Minno

Solariken wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

[

Solariken wrote: »

Hey guys I'm wondering when we can start talking about what a disease magplar has become in BG's and discussing practical ways to fix it. Is it still too soon?

I don't want to be dogpiled by forumplars by speaking the truth, but we officially have a pretty serious problem on our hands.

Lol they just got to a level where they are competitive (again).

"Competitive" lol yeah ok.

Magplar is in an excellent place offensively now. Like, really excellent.

Defensively and in group play though, they are a scourge. Granted it's not specifically the magplar kit that is problematic per se, but the array of synergistic elements that come together to form the disgusting soup.

Have you seen the jerkplar BG 4-stacks yet? It's about to be the next big scandal.

I haven't because all i saw were enchant mancers, stamdens and nightblades with Templar pocket healers lol.


If 4 temps can now go head to head against a warden team, then I'd considered the gamea little more balanced lol.

But none of this is cause to strip the everyday Templar that solos a BG his or her ability to defend against an organized team. Unless of course someone wants toput out a video of them going 40/0/30 against othermeta setups.

xaraan

I know I'm beating a dead horse and my magplar and stamplar both feel pretty good right now, but some others might know how they stack up vs other classes better. The dead horse I'm here to beat is Templar tanking.

They are feeling solid (ish) now. Much better than they were, thank you.

BUT, still not on the level of other class tanks. They really should get a morph of say - Breath of Life that is a health based self heal. I think this would make people choose between a selfish heal and share heal in not just pve, but pvp. And it would give us a reliable heal in pve. There is almost no way to heal myself unless I blow stam on (a weak tank spec) Vigor or a ton of magicka on clapheal if I throw out a breath when anyone in the group has taken damage - the heal will go to them and the very limited amount of magicka I have will be down the drain.

The problems with Templar tanking don't really become apparent in regular content runs, even vet dungeons, until you get to Hard Modes of the new vet dungeons and hard modes of the newer trials. Especially if you aren't running it with a top teir group where burns are quick and heals are fluid. In truly challenging situations I've used my various tanks for the same team runs and seen a huge gap in overall tankiness between classes and not having any sort of self heal really kills it for templar tanks.

There are several tools tanks of different classes can bring to the table for a group that make the classes stand apart as tanks. So there is no reason every class shouldn't have at least the same basic toolset for the job - some sort of shield (which they do and every other tank class has in some form- even if NBs is arguable) a good way to buff their armor - which every class does. And a solid health based, somewhat bursty self heal. Sorc has the best one by far now that pets can't be killed (expensive though), DK is right behind them. Warden is pretty good, but not as strong if you need a lot of help quickly. NB's is pretty weak, needs to lose the 'over time' component IMO or be changed to be like Wardens where you get most of it up front and the rest in a few more ticks. And Templar has nothing. When you view them as a tank spec, the class people think of when they think healing, has the worst abilities for saving themselves. Selfless I guess, but when you can't save yourself as the tank and die, then everyone else often does anyway.

In the end, I think all the classes are getting closer to getting balanced for the PvE tanking role. Many offer something beneficial that others do not. (Though I do think NB tanks might need some work in this group utility area). But there are basic tools all tanks should have and a decent self heal is one of the big ones IMO and Templars deserve to have one too. Not to mention you guys seem to have spent a long time trying to make one morph of Breath more useful, this would do it.

Checkmath

xaraan wrote: »

I know I'm beating a dead horse and my magplar and stamplar both feel pretty good right now, but some others might know how they stack up vs other classes better. The dead horse I'm here to beat is Templar tanking.

They are feeling solid (ish) now. Much better than they were, thank you.

BUT, still not on the level of other class tanks. They really should get a morph of say - Breath of Life that is a health based self heal. I think this would make people choose between a selfish heal and share heal in not just pve, but pvp. And it would give us a reliable heal in pve. There is almost no way to heal myself unless I blow stam on (a weak tank spec) Vigor or a ton of magicka on clapheal if I throw out a breath when anyone in the group has taken damage - the heal will go to them and the very limited amount of magicka I have will be down the drain.

The problems with Templar tanking don't really become apparent in regular content runs, even vet dungeons, until you get to Hard Modes of the new vet dungeons and hard modes of the newer trials. Especially if you aren't running it with a top teir group where burns are quick and heals are fluid. In truly challenging situations I've used my various tanks for the same team runs and seen a huge gap in overall tankiness between classes and not having any sort of self heal really kills it for templar tanks.

There are several tools tanks of different classes can bring to the table for a group that make the classes stand apart as tanks. So there is no reason every class shouldn't have at least the same basic toolset for the job - some sort of shield (which they do and every other tank class has in some form- even if NBs is arguable) a good way to buff their armor - which every class does. And a solid health based, somewhat bursty self heal. Sorc has the best one by far now that pets can't be killed (expensive though), DK is right behind them. Warden is pretty good, but not as strong if you need a lot of help quickly. NB's is pretty weak, needs to lose the 'over time' component IMO or be changed to be like Wardens where you get most of it up front and the rest in a few more ticks. And Templar has nothing. When you view them as a tank spec, the class people think of when they think healing, has the worst abilities for saving themselves. Selfless I guess, but when you can't save yourself as the tank and die, then everyone else often does anyway.

In the end, I think all the classes are getting closer to getting balanced for the PvE tanking role. Many offer something beneficial that others do not. (Though I do think NB tanks might need some work in this group utility area). But there are basic tools all tanks should have and a decent self heal is one of the big ones IMO and Templars deserve to have one too. Not to mention you guys seem to have spent a long time trying to make one morph of Breath more useful, this would do it.

I see the problem, you got there. but I also see problems to implement it without taking something away,which is very important somewhere else. Both skills breath of life and honor the dead are really strong currently and a lot of healers do not want to give up breath of life, meanwhile all PvP magplars love their honor the dead. In the restoring light skill tree there are around 2 skills, which could Need adjustements: the other Morph of repentance and the clapper (one of the Morph could surely Change and nobody would miss it). There are a lot of ideas around what to do with this skills like adding Major sorcery to the magicka repentance, a stamina heal over time or delayed burst heal from the clapper.

But actually I am not sure, if templar tanks really need a health based heal. I think they rather need some crowd control ability. I know this sounds a bit dumb, but behind a damage shield like sun shield or bone shield a tank should not have to use any selfheal. This is the job of the healers.

Solariken wrote: »

Hey guys I'm wondering when we can start talking about what a disease magplar has become in BG's and discussing practical ways to fix it. Is it still too soon?

I don't want to be dogpiled by forumplars by speaking the truth, but we officially have a pretty serious problem on our hands.

Stacking 4 times the same spec into a bg group is in pretty most cases a plague. You are right, 4 magplars together will be pretty immortal through the immense healing and cleansing, but this is actual the templars strength. I do not think, that this Needs to be looked at, since it only has limited benefits. mgplars also have weaknesses, which will make it hard to compete for them in specific bg modes like capture the relict.

But I do not see the pint, when we compare such a Group to 4 stamina chars like stamdens or stamsorcs, all running shalks, dawbreaker and spin to win.

Checkmath

I would like the necro this thread, since the next meeting will be in the beginning of december.

You know how the game works: Provide your 2 biggest pain points with the class, best with a small explanation.

I am happy to read again, what you are coming up with.