[Class Rep] Dragonknight Feedback Thread

Aedaryl · June 2018

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Current state of Dragonknight

Please learn to play, really.

outside of the ''worst healing'', everything on that list, checks out for stamDk.

(I think this chart is mostly bad cause it does not split stamina and magicka, It compares both apples and oranges, which is the wrong way to do things.)

Also I believe you're just triggered cause it says sorcs have good survivability. Which is true.

You don't have to worry about defiles, executes,status effects,crits.. none of that. And like it or not you can streak out of any fight you don't like.

And to all the people asking for flame abilities on stamDK, if you want fire theme, go play a Magicka Dk.

This picture is extremely false.

First, you can't make that board with 5 lines.

There is a magicka and stamina playstyle for each class.

I will do it right.

Magicka DK : Great healing (Power lash, cauterize, burning embers) / Great in heavy / good in lightresistance (superior block management with helping hand, battle roar) / Great damage in light or good in heavy (lot of dots, strong spammable) / Good sustain (magdk can sustain with 500 mag recovery and 2 infused reduce cost)) / Worst mobility.

Stamina DK : Good healing (Major mending)/ Best resistance (Best block managment from helping hand and battle roar)/ Worst damage (nothing special)/ Great sustain (heavies + helping hand + battle roar)/ good mobility (sprint + major expedition + Snare immune and removal)

Magicka Sorcerer : Worst healing (healing ward only)/ Good resistance (3 shields)/ Good damage (best delayed burst, but no pressure or defile)/ Worst sustain (the only class hwo need a entire dedicated sustain set + high costs) / Mediocre mobility (anything stamina have best mobility cuz Major expedition + sprint > streak and stam also have snare removal + immunity).

Stamina Sorcerer : Good healing (surge but no passive)/ Average resistance (nothing special but sill stamina) / Great damage (passives + hurricane)/ Good sustain (dark deal + heavies + passives) / Best mobility (Srpint + major and minor expedition + streak + snare removal and immunity).

Magicka NB : Good healing (HoTs + healing ward)/ Great resistance (cloak + shadow Image + minor main)/ Greater damage (amazing burst + strong pressure + defile)/ good sustain (siphonings + low cost on skills + passive)/ mediorcre mobility (major expediton + shadow Image).

Stamina NB : average healing (siphonings but no passive) / Great resistance (Cloak + shadow Image + rolldodge + major evasion) / Best damage (Great burst + great pressure + defile)/ Great sustain (heavies + siphoning + cloak + passives)/ Great mobility (major expedition + sprint + snare immunity and removal + cloak + shadow Image)

Magicka Templar : Best healing /good resistance (passives + purge)/ Average damage (if u touch the target...) / Great sustain (minor magicka steal + HoTD + Channeled focus) / Bad mobility (Purge only)

Stamina Templar : Average healing(nothing special)/ Average resistance (purge) / great damage (PoTL + Jabs) / Terrible sustain (nothing for infight sustain) / Good mobility (snare reomval and immunity + purge + sprint and major expedition)

Magicka Warden : Greater healing / good resistance (shimmering shield) / Terrible damage / Good sustain (netch) /Average mobility (major expedition + port to an ally).

Stamina Warden : Greater healing (burst heal/panic ultimate heal) / Greater resistance (shimmering shield) / Great damage (shalks) / Good sustain (netch)/ Good mobilty (major expedition + sprint)

Fair enough ,that is a better list , but I still think its wrong on some parts. Like for example, warden actually has better damage mitigation(I know, I've played both classes in no-cp and cp, stamden survives a lot longer, has access to both minor and major protection, plus they got this amazing ability called shimmering shield.) , and Dk does not have natural major expedition. No the empowering chains does not count.
chains are horrible, they cost a lot and stamDK magicka sustain is terrible due to wasting 3k on resist buffs and 4k on major mending.(add another 3700 if you want to use wings. So yeah. good luck sustaining that.)

If you meant that stamDK mobility is good cause of potions, you gotta realize everybody has access to those potions. You're literally telling me that a stamDK is more mobile than a magsorc, cause we can run pots, which is bullcrap.

And stamina sorcerer actually sustains A LOT better than a Dk, in a real fight that especially. This has been mentioned too many times already. Unless both targets are blocking, Dk has the second worst stamina sustain of all classes.(Only beats stamplar).

This is already proven by the fact that Dks just recently got a buff to their healing+ their sustain. Why? because our healing and sustain is not as great as people think.

Other than that I agree. We've got some good things going for us, but when you factor everything , stamDK ends up lacking on a lot of areas.

lingering + speed potions are META, everyone hwo is stamina use it (maybe some rollerblade don't). When you discuss balance, you also need to consider the buff the potion give you, since it's BiS (for years now).

And yes, a stam Dk because he is 99% running major expedition + speed potion have better mobility than a magsorc.

Because sprint + major expedition is better than streak.

Because sprint is cheaper.

Because Sprint + speed stamina character can literally chase streaking magsorc

Because Sprint doesn't mean you sacrifise 2 skills for having less mobility than free sprint (U need streak and dark conversion as a magsorc)

Because Stamina have access to snare removal and immunity, something magsorc don't have.

So yeah, magicka sorcerer is the 6 on the mobility ladder. Because anything stam HAVE major expedition so they are more mobile by definition.

I mean that's why everyone dies less on a Magsorc than on a stamdk, especially because they don't get zerged, or streak and scroll carrying got prohibited, must be something about sprinting being better.

Stop lying to yourself, the "mobility" you get with sprinting and major expedition isn't good, it's no way cheap because you don't get any regen while sprinting aswell as no damage mitigation like BoL which means you have to stop sprinting more often than not.

l2p.

That's all.

I can chase sorcerer on heavy armor with sprint + major expedition.

The reason why you die more on stamina DK than on magicka sorc is because you think you have less mobility.

If each time you would streak away with your sorc, you sprint away, you seeing you having similar mobility.

As a DK, you don't think to run. But you can, and you should. It's a question of playstyle, if you think your not mobile and you need to "stand your ground", then you will die outnumbered. If you see the ennemies comming and decide to run away for spread them just like a sorc would do, it will work.

Sprint is cheap when you look at streak expodential cost.

You can chase streaking sorc with your heavy armor DK if you want. If u run medium (with fortified or impreg of course) it will be even more easier.

When I play as a sorc with stam Dk friend, if we decide to retreate at the same time, we will be togever at the same time.

Stop clogging the thread with your crap. IF you want to argue that DK Stam or Mag is OP/ has best mobility please create a new thread and discuss there, this one is about dragonknight issues, not my x is worse than y so y doesn't deserve a buff

l2read

I didn't stam DK or Mag dk is OP and I didn't say they have the best mobility.

I just answer what people said, if DK stop spreading misinformation, I wouldn't be here to correct them.

Also, I never said dk don't need buff.

kiss

Anti_Virus · June 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Current state of Dragonknight

Please learn to play, really.

outside of the ''worst healing'', everything on that list, checks out for stamDk.

(I think this chart is mostly bad cause it does not split stamina and magicka, It compares both apples and oranges, which is the wrong way to do things.)

Also I believe you're just triggered cause it says sorcs have good survivability. Which is true.

You don't have to worry about defiles, executes,status effects,crits.. none of that. And like it or not you can streak out of any fight you don't like.

And to all the people asking for flame abilities on stamDK, if you want fire theme, go play a Magicka Dk.

This picture is extremely false.

First, you can't make that board with 5 lines.

There is a magicka and stamina playstyle for each class.

I will do it right.

Magicka DK : Great healing (Power lash, cauterize, burning embers) / Great in heavy / good in lightresistance (superior block management with helping hand, battle roar) / Great damage in light or good in heavy (lot of dots, strong spammable) / Good sustain (magdk can sustain with 500 mag recovery and 2 infused reduce cost)) / Worst mobility.

Stamina DK : Good healing (Major mending)/ Best resistance (Best block managment from helping hand and battle roar)/ Worst damage (nothing special)/ Great sustain (heavies + helping hand + battle roar)/ good mobility (sprint + major expedition + Snare immune and removal)

Magicka Sorcerer : Worst healing (healing ward only)/ Good resistance (3 shields)/ Good damage (best delayed burst, but no pressure or defile)/ Worst sustain (the only class hwo need a entire dedicated sustain set + high costs) / Mediocre mobility (anything stamina have best mobility cuz Major expedition + sprint > streak and stam also have snare removal + immunity).

Stamina Sorcerer : Good healing (surge but no passive)/ Average resistance (nothing special but sill stamina) / Great damage (passives + hurricane)/ Good sustain (dark deal + heavies + passives) / Best mobility (Srpint + major and minor expedition + streak + snare removal and immunity).

Magicka NB : Good healing (HoTs + healing ward)/ Great resistance (cloak + shadow Image + minor main)/ Greater damage (amazing burst + strong pressure + defile)/ good sustain (siphonings + low cost on skills + passive)/ mediorcre mobility (major expediton + shadow Image).

Stamina NB : average healing (siphonings but no passive) / Great resistance (Cloak + shadow Image + rolldodge + major evasion) / Best damage (Great burst + great pressure + defile)/ Great sustain (heavies + siphoning + cloak + passives)/ Great mobility (major expedition + sprint + snare immunity and removal + cloak + shadow Image)

Magicka Templar : Best healing /good resistance (passives + purge)/ Average damage (if u touch the target...) / Great sustain (minor magicka steal + HoTD + Channeled focus) / Bad mobility (Purge only)

Stamina Templar : Average healing(nothing special)/ Average resistance (purge) / great damage (PoTL + Jabs) / Terrible sustain (nothing for infight sustain) / Good mobility (snare reomval and immunity + purge + sprint and major expedition)

Magicka Warden : Greater healing / good resistance (shimmering shield) / Terrible damage / Good sustain (netch) /Average mobility (major expedition + port to an ally).

Stamina Warden : Greater healing (burst heal/panic ultimate heal) / Greater resistance (shimmering shield) / Great damage (shalks) / Good sustain (netch)/ Good mobilty (major expedition + sprint)

Fair enough ,that is a better list , but I still think its wrong on some parts. Like for example, warden actually has better damage mitigation(I know, I've played both classes in no-cp and cp, stamden survives a lot longer, has access to both minor and major protection, plus they got this amazing ability called shimmering shield.) , and Dk does not have natural major expedition. No the empowering chains does not count.
chains are horrible, they cost a lot and stamDK magicka sustain is terrible due to wasting 3k on resist buffs and 4k on major mending.(add another 3700 if you want to use wings. So yeah. good luck sustaining that.)

If you meant that stamDK mobility is good cause of potions, you gotta realize everybody has access to those potions. You're literally telling me that a stamDK is more mobile than a magsorc, cause we can run pots, which is bullcrap.

And stamina sorcerer actually sustains A LOT better than a Dk, in a real fight that especially. This has been mentioned too many times already. Unless both targets are blocking, Dk has the second worst stamina sustain of all classes.(Only beats stamplar).

This is already proven by the fact that Dks just recently got a buff to their healing+ their sustain. Why? because our healing and sustain is not as great as people think.

Other than that I agree. We've got some good things going for us, but when you factor everything , stamDK ends up lacking on a lot of areas.

lingering + speed potions are META, everyone hwo is stamina use it (maybe some rollerblade don't). When you discuss balance, you also need to consider the buff the potion give you, since it's BiS (for years now).

And yes, a stam Dk because he is 99% running major expedition + speed potion have better mobility than a magsorc.

Because sprint + major expedition is better than streak.

Because sprint is cheaper.

Because Sprint + speed stamina character can literally chase streaking magsorc

Because Sprint doesn't mean you sacrifise 2 skills for having less mobility than free sprint (U need streak and dark conversion as a magsorc)

Because Stamina have access to snare removal and immunity, something magsorc don't have.

So yeah, magicka sorcerer is the 6 on the mobility ladder. Because anything stam HAVE major expedition so they are more mobile by definition.

I mean that's why everyone dies less on a Magsorc than on a stamdk, especially because they don't get zerged, or streak and scroll carrying got prohibited, must be something about sprinting being better.

Stop lying to yourself, the "mobility" you get with sprinting and major expedition isn't good, it's no way cheap because you don't get any regen while sprinting aswell as no damage mitigation like BoL which means you have to stop sprinting more often than not.

l2p.

That's all.

I can chase sorcerer on heavy armor with sprint + major expedition.

The reason why you die more on stamina DK than on magicka sorc is because you think you have less mobility.

If each time you would streak away with your sorc, you sprint away, you seeing you having similar mobility.

As a DK, you don't think to run. But you can, and you should. It's a question of playstyle, if you think your not mobile and you need to "stand your ground", then you will die outnumbered. If you see the ennemies comming and decide to run away for spread them just like a sorc would do, it will work.

Sprint is cheap when you look at streak expodential cost.

You can chase streaking sorc with your heavy armor DK if you want. If u run medium (with fortified or impreg of course) it will be even more easier.

When I play as a sorc with stam Dk friend, if we decide to retreate at the same time, we will be togever at the same time.

Stop clogging the thread with your crap. IF you want to argue that DK Stam or Mag is OP/ has best mobility please create a new thread and discuss there, this one is about dragonknight issues, not my x is worse than y so y doesn't deserve a buff

l2read

I didn't stam DK or Mag dk is OP and I didn't say they have the best mobility.

I just answer what people said, if DK stop spreading misinformation, I wouldn't be here to correct them.

Also, I never said dk don't need buff.

kiss

well that clears things up, thanks for the clarification

Savos_Saren · June 2018

Can we please get back on topic? Two main pain points and/or suggestions to improve the class?

Aedaryl · June 2018

My 2 paint points :

-The lack of stam dk identity. Maybe add more poison morph ?

-Wings being only a snare removal and not given immunity. It's stupid, it should give at least 2s snare immunity.

kojou · June 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

1. Reduce the ultimate cost for Standard of Might.

2. Make the Burning Embers heal a HoT.

Duuuude I would kill to have embers on my sDk, Its like a mini rally that costs much less than rally. How can you not love embers?

I like it, but I would rather the heal worked as a HoT instead of a burst heal.

I could also be happy with:

2. Extend the range of Burning Embers to 7m

ak_pvp · June 2018

Nearly all the feedback methods have devolved into chaos between classes lel. I know its pain points only but here is my "how 2 fix" input. DK was a stand ur ground class, and IMO it should still be, but since other classes have got a lot of DKs fun stuff, CCs, chains, AoEs, etc, and stand your ground was nerfed, a few things are needed.

QOL: Lets the currently quite dodgy abilities hit better

Claw+morphs 8m.
Fiery breath+morphs function like 2h LA. Where it hits a single target guaranteed, then those around them too. Way too finicky atm.
Powerlash procs on immobilized enemies, no offbalancing lash needed, that way helps whilst maintaining the dodgability and the 3 gcd set up that can be prevented at each step. (immunity, evade set up lash, and evade power, multiple methods each) Still works on offbalanced enemies for PvE, the CD keeps this balanced.
Powelash again, but the stun function. Instead of the base lash setting people offbalanced when immobilized, and power lash stunning, the power lash sets people offbalanced and doesn't stun. Little less easy to offbalance everyone, but it makes more sense, and the stun is quite frankly negative to DKs.
EDIT: Powerlash once more: Both these concerns could actually be fixed by making DK hard CCs automatically apply offbalance, allowing for guaranteed lash when a stun is available, but not when an more common root is, and it synergised well with stamina DK and truth set.

StamDK:

Deep breath turned to stam, heals and increases the damage of your next attack by 5% per enemy succ'd. Both morphs have a slightly stronger heal.
Spiked armour+hardened becomes fire. Volatile armour damage becomes poison, scales of highest stat, still costs mag because its utility.
Burning talons costs and scales of stam. Now deals poison damage.
#Stamwhip.
Possible change of FOO damage type depending on stats.

Healing:

Eruption+morphs: Grants major evasion, good for stand ur ground DK, which is currently dead unless you go no damage, and for a unique friendly healer buff, at the very least the heal morph should get it.
Cauterize PBAoE, purges 1 effect every 5s for anyone in the circle. Gives DKs a unique group heal different to vigor as it travels, and gives a group support.

Most important IMO: DK defense was gutted with block nerfs, heavy is weak due to the bleed/sload meta and wings is well... wings.

Wings: 3/4s uptime. 3 projectiles per person. Bird reflectable. Cripple unreflectable. Status effects reflectable. Plate: Snare removal 3/4s. (FM/mist is so much better than current, anything less than 3s is useless) Base+plate becomes a deflect, functionally like warden's absorb. Fire scales maintains its reflect.

Weaker 1v1, harder to maintain, and less hard counter vs Magblade. Better outnumbered. Offensive and defensive morphs so it can't be considered too strong on both fronts. The snare removal fits DKs resistive nature and the reflects allowing them to shrug off a few attacks, but not to the old OP level. Gives a good class defining (dragon wings, dragon knight) defense like purge, cloak, shimmering, and streak.

@ZOS_Wrobel Please and thanks.

Also, possible #stamwhip for molten. Possible embers heal reduction to 50% (Don't want it to be too mindless spam, let it run its course for good heal, overheals at max)

Ragnarock41 · June 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Nearly all the feedback methods have devolved into chaos between classes lel. I know its pain points only but here is my "how 2 fix" input. DK was a stand ur ground class, and IMO it should still be, but since other classes have got a lot of DKs fun stuff, CCs, chains, AoEs, etc, and stand your ground was nerfed, a few things are needed.

QOL: Won't be gamebreaking, just lets the currently quite dodgy abilities hit better
Claw+morphs 8m.

Fiery breath+morphs function like 2h LA. Where it hits a single target guaranteed, then those around them too. Way too finicky atm.

Powerlash procs on immobilized enemies, no offbalancing lash needed, that way helps whilst maintaining the dodgability and the 3 gcd set up that can be prevented at each step (immunity, evade set up lash, and evade power, multiple methods each) Still works on offbalanced enemies for PvE and borrowing a lash of your friend, the CD keeps this balanced. Instead of the base lash setting people offbalanced when immobilized, and power lash stunning, the power lash sets people offbalanced and doesn't stun. Little less easy to offbalance everyone, but it makes more sense, and the stun is quite frankly negative to DKs.

StamDK:
Deep breath turned to stam, heals and increases the damage of your next attack by 5% per enemy succ'd. Both morphs have a slightly stronger heal.

Spiked armour+hardened becomes fire. Volatile armour damage becomes poison, scales of highest stat, still costs mag because its utility.

Burning talons costs and scales of stam. Now deals poison damage.

Healing:
Eruption+morphs: Grants major evasion, good for stand ur ground DK, which is currently dead unless you go no damage, and for a unique friendly healer buff, at the very least the heal morph should get it.

Cauterize PBAoE, purges 1 effect every 5s for anyone in the circle. Gives DKs a unique group heal different to vigor as it travels, and gives a group support.

Most important IMO: DK defense was gutted with block nerfs, heavy is weak due to the bleed/sload meta and wings is well... wings.

Wings: 3/4s uptime. 3 projectiles per person. Bird reflectable. Cripple unreflectable. Status effects reflectable. Plate: Snare removal 3/4s. (FM/mist is so much better than current, anything less than 3s is useless) Base+plate becomes a deflect, functionally like warden's absorb. Fire scales maintains its reflect.

Weaker 1v1, harder to maintain, and less hard counter vs Magblade. Better outnumbered. Offensive and defensive morphs. The snare removal fits DKs resistive nature and the reflectr allowing them to shrug off a few attacks, but not to the old OP level. Gives a good class defining (dragon wings, dragon knight) defense like purge, cloak, shimmering, and streak.

@ZOS_Wrobel Please and thanks.

Also, possible #stamwhip for molten.

I really like these suggestions. I also would love to have deep breath or inhale as a poison ability. Much more fitting than stonefist for sure.(Though I wouldn't say no to stonefist becoming stam, if the ability was reworked into something completely different. But I'm also worried that the helping hands passive might be problematic, stam ability returning stam on use sounds a little broken to me, but what do I know right?)

Supernatural · June 2018

Not sure if it already mentioned, but what I would like to see is a rework to the morphs of the Inferno ability. In my opinion, there should a stamina and a magicka morph, with Flames of Oblivion being the magicka morph, and then change Cauterize (nobody ever uses this ability - its healing is something more than underwhelming) to a stamina morph. And then I'd add a twist. Instead of providing the major savagery/prophecy buff one the bar that ability is slotted, I'd have the buff being granted upon ability activation, similar to Biting Jabs. This would help both Stamina and Magicka DK in PvP, as both classes mostly play in heavy armor, and thus have much lower critical strike chance when compared to medium and light armor. So, recap:

Flames of Oblivion does flame damage, and provides major prophecy upon activation for 15 seconds,
And Cauterize reworked into a stamina morph (poison damage), which will provide major savagery for 15 seconds.

ak_pvp · June 2018

Supernatural wrote: »

Not sure if it already mentioned, but what I would like to see is a rework to the morphs of the Inferno ability. In my opinion, there should a stamina and a magicka morph, with Flames of Oblivion being the magicka morph, and then change Cauterize (nobody ever uses this ability - its healing is something more than underwhelming) to a stamina morph. And then I'd add a twist. Instead of providing the major savagery/prophecy buff one the bar that ability is slotted, I'd have the buff being granted upon ability activation, similar to Biting Jabs. This would help both Stamina and Magicka DK in PvP, as both classes mostly play in heavy armor, and thus have much lower critical strike chance when compared to medium and light armor. So, recap:
Flames of Oblivion does flame damage, and provides major prophecy upon activation for 15 seconds,

And Cauterize reworked into a stamina morph (poison damage), which will provide major savagery for 15 seconds.

Don't touch my bby cauterize. Its so good in CP PvP. A 4/5k burst heal every 5s for 2k mag. And grants crit on a bar. Sexy asf.

Ragnarock41 · June 2018

kojou wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

1. Reduce the ultimate cost for Standard of Might.

2. Make the Burning Embers heal a HoT.

Duuuude I would kill to have embers on my sDk, Its like a mini rally that costs much less than rally. How can you not love embers?

I like it, but I would rather the heal worked as a HoT instead of a burst heal.

I could also be happy with:

2. Extend the range of Burning Embers to 7m

Well, either way it does not bother me. The only thing I don't like about venomous claws is how bleeds outperform them without any sacrifice. As for range increase, I'm not sure how it will help the class since the difference would be minimal.

JinMori · June 2018

DK could still use some sustain, just a bit more. but i think that's it at least for pve, but honestly i would just rather see many of the changes in morrowind reverted, did not like them one bit.

kojou · June 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

1. Reduce the ultimate cost for Standard of Might.

2. Make the Burning Embers heal a HoT.

Duuuude I would kill to have embers on my sDk, Its like a mini rally that costs much less than rally. How can you not love embers?

I like it, but I would rather the heal worked as a HoT instead of a burst heal.

I could also be happy with:

2. Extend the range of Burning Embers to 7m

Well, either way it does not bother me. The only thing I don't like about venomous claws is how bleeds outperform them without any sacrifice. As for range increase, I'm not sure how it will help the class since the difference would be minimal.

QoL change... 7m means easier to apply in PvP and in PvE I can hang back a little farther to see mechanics.

InFernalEntity · June 2018

1. Sustain in general is poor. Especially for mag DK but for stam too. Due to the thing where resistance prevents inflicting burning/poisoned (Don't know if that's still a thing?) but changes to combustion aren't consistent/aren't enough.

Would suggest a longer cooldown + changing it to restore when dealing posion/fire damage.

Alternatively a larger resource return for inflicting poison/burning.

2. Lacking in Stam Morphs.

No Talons Morph?
No Whip Morph?
No Stonefist Morph?
No Poison Mist Morph for Ash Cloud?
No decent stam heal.

Ocelot9x · June 2018

@ak_pvp Nice suggestions! (bout stamina dk,the only paste I've read)

I really like the change to deep breath with damage scaling.

IMHO what SDK lacks is a counter to this meta (bleeds,defile,sloads).
Giving green dragon blood a 2 negative effect purge would be a nice thing.
Also group utility,dk are so damn useless when small scaling.
It brings nothing to the table. More group utility would be nice. Stamina chocking talon is a good start

Aerem · June 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

QOL:
[*] Deep breath turned to stam, heals and increases the damage of your next attack by 5% per enemy succ'd. Both morphs have a slightly stronger heal.

This would be massively OP, hit 6 people with Deep Breath, have a 30% empowered leap or DB. Yikes.

BohnT · June 2018

1. Snare+root immunity on wings for 2 seconds
2. poison damage deep breath that applies poison on the second hit + poison whip that deals additional damage against poisoned enemies.

This would give magdk much needed mobility which is one of the last points it's lacking.

The second suggestion would give stamdk a new damage combination that interacts with passives like combustion aswell as a nice synergy with a poison whip and a stamina deep breath

Ragnarock41 · June 2018

Aerem wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

QOL:
[*] Deep breath turned to stam, heals and increases the damage of your next attack by 5% per enemy succ'd. Both morphs have a slightly stronger heal.

This would be massively OP, hit 6 people with Deep Breath, have a 30% empowered leap or DB. Yikes.

Empowered leaps existed last patch for both mDK and sDK. And no It wasn't really broken.

HankTwo · June 2018

Hello all,

Stamina DK main here. I will talk about PvP, but I also have PvE tanking and DPS experience. The main problem I see with stam DK in PvP is that the 'stand your ground' playstyle seems much weaker than other playstyles.

A big pain point for me at the moment is that there is no earthen heart skill that synergizes well with the stam DK, while the passives of the skill line do so. Yes, there is fragmented shield, but I did some tests and green dragon blood seems like the better skill to boost your healing (with vigor + forward momentum).

In my opinion a great way to improve stam DK gameplay would be to make cinder storm scale with magicka or stamina - whichever is higher - the same way as flames of oblivion. The base skill (ash cloud) should also get an increased radius (7m maybe) but a nerf to the movement speed reduction to 60% to be in line with other snares.
This would give us an area where we can stand our ground by improved healing and reducing enemy movement speed.

My second big pain point is that blocking feels kinda weak at the moment. I play a stam DK in heavy armor with a sturdy shield and a block cost reduction glyph and still roll dodge often seems like the better way to reduce incoming damage (compared to block) with all the bleed and oblivion damage sources flying around in Cyrodiil.

To improve this, I would like to see a passive in the heavy armor skill line, that further reduces the block movement speed penalty (like battlefield mobility from SnB skill line). Additionally, I think a DK passive that would give a percentage of the stamina cost used for block back as magicka would be awesome. This would increase the sustain and would make block more desirable while at the same time wont make 'permablock' builds OP because the further you would reduce your block cost, the less magicka you would get per block.

Additionally, I have some very specific pain points I don't want to leave out:

- Templars eclipse skill (total dark) activates when damage is returned by DK's spiked armor skill. This basically doubles the effectiveness of total dark against DKs. The same is true for spiked bone shield, defensive posture and reflective scale (I tested this). However it is the worst for DKs because spiked armor is a class defining buff and lasts for 20 seconds. Please make reflected damage count as indirect damage (which it should be anyway).
- Noxious breath often doesn't hit enemy players in PvP, even when they are directly in front of you. An increase of the cone width directly at the caster would solve this.
- Dizzying swing, which is the main damage skill of many stam DKs, will stop its animation and cancel out when the target player walks into you. This can be abused by players with expedition buffs active (especially stam sorcs). Is this intended?

Finally, I don't want to see that stam DK gets additional expedition buffs. In my opinion that won't fit the playstyle at all.

ak_pvp · June 2018

Aerem wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

QOL:
[*] Deep breath turned to stam, heals and increases the damage of your next attack by 5% per enemy succ'd. Both morphs have a slightly stronger heal.

This would be massively OP, hit 6 people with Deep Breath, have a 30% empowered leap or DB. Yikes.

Not really, as ragna said, not much more than old empower, whilst requiring a lot of enemies. Instead of dealing direct damage, it'd instead be a brawlery buff, where it makes you stronger, maybe even slap 2s 5% mitigation on it, like a beserker mode, it won't be cheap, and would more be a way to set up a strong hit of damage without being interrupted.

BohnT wrote: »

1. Snare+root immunity on wings for 2 seconds
2. poison damage deep breath that applies poison on the second hit + poison whip that deals additional damage against poisoned enemies.

This would give magdk much needed mobility which is one of the last points it's lacking.

The second suggestion would give stamdk a new damage combination that interacts with passives like combustion aswell as a nice synergy with a poison whip and a stamina deep breath

Honestly, 2s immunity won't make it worth, 3 would be barely and 4 the sweet spot. I know it was compared to shuffle on heavy being good enough, but shuffle was super cheap due to unchained, and provided a long lasting good defense. Wings is 4K, and its current state its defense is... So a longer removal would be useful and be decent for a class skill.

Anything less than 3s and I won't even consider dropping FM. Its too good with the current level of snares, 2.5k stam for 8s and a small hot. (All adds up I suppose)

Aerem · June 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Aerem wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

QOL:
[*] Deep breath turned to stam, heals and increases the damage of your next attack by 5% per enemy succ'd. Both morphs have a slightly stronger heal.

This would be massively OP, hit 6 people with Deep Breath, have a 30% empowered leap or DB. Yikes.

Empowered leaps existed last patch for both mDK and sDK. And no It wasn't really broken.

Sure but, it was 10% for StamDK with a 2h heavy and 20% for Mdk with entropy/chains, but ferocious leap also has a lower tooltip than take flight, I am just concerned about tripling the "empower" for stam dks, because then it gets into the stamden combos of shalk/DB dead, except here its Deep Breath/Leap dead.

I am all for a stam morph of Deep Breath though, I think that would be awesome, I just hesitate with the empower.

@ak_pvp

NBrookus · June 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

StamDK:
Deep breath turned to stam, heals and increases the damage of your next attack by 5% per enemy succ'd. Both morphs have a slightly stronger heal.

Burning talons costs and scales of stam. Now deals poison damage.

MagDK needs a little stand your ground buff too. Both morphs getting a defense or damage bonus would be good. But if only one, I'd rather stam take the other morph.

You also asked for the damage morph of talons converted to stam. While stam has THREE melee weapons to choose damage skills from, Mag DK has ZERO melee weapon skills for damage.

JumpmanLane · June 2018

StamDK is in a very bad place. But Magdk? I unno with every other specific class other than StamDK you really can’t say one class is better than another to justify buffs or nerfs. It’s all about builds.

A guy with a great build with any class (other than StamDK but maybe even StamDK) can go into Cyrodill and WRECK PEOPLE.

Anti_Virus · June 2018

NBrookus wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

StamDK:
Deep breath turned to stam, heals and increases the damage of your next attack by 5% per enemy succ'd. Both morphs have a slightly stronger heal.

Burning talons costs and scales of stam. Now deals poison damage.

MagDK needs a little stand your ground buff too. Both morphs getting a defense or damage bonus would be good. But if only one, I'd rather stam take the other morph.

You also asked for the damage morph of talons converted to stam. While stam has THREE melee weapons to choose damage skills from, Mag DK has ZERO melee weapon skills for damage.

You keep making this argument which has no merit or substance and is very weak, so what? The stamina variant of the class still doesn't feel like a dk which is a pain point. BooHoo you only have destro staff as a magicka weapon but then again you don't, you too can utilized sword and shield/dual wield like every other mag build.

now let's say you had more options to choose from other than destruction staff what will it accomplish? mag dk is already really powerful in pvp and pve.

instead of hoarding class skills that you will Never use just to be in spite, why don't you suggest more magicka weapon skill lines?

NBrookus · June 2018

Anti_Virus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

StamDK:
Deep breath turned to stam, heals and increases the damage of your next attack by 5% per enemy succ'd. Both morphs have a slightly stronger heal.

Burning talons costs and scales of stam. Now deals poison damage.

MagDK needs a little stand your ground buff too. Both morphs getting a defense or damage bonus would be good. But if only one, I'd rather stam take the other morph.

You also asked for the damage morph of talons converted to stam. While stam has THREE melee weapons to choose damage skills from, Mag DK has ZERO melee weapon skills for damage.

You keep making this argument which has no merit or substance and is very weak, so what? The stamina variant of the class still doesn't feel like a dk which is a pain point. BooHoo you only have destro staff as a magicka weapon but then again you don't, you too can utilized sword and shield/dual wield like every other mag build.

now let's say you had more options to choose from other than destruction staff what will it accomplish? mag dk is already really powerful in pvp and pve.

instead of hoarding class skills that you will Never use just to be in spite, why don't you suggest more magicka weapon skill lines?

Who said anything about spite or hoarding? I was a stam DK before any other class I have, so I have sympathy that most stam DKs want more stam class morphs. All I am saying is don't gut magDK's damage options to get there since that's all we've got. Draw Essence or Choking Talons are better morph options for stam. The mag return on Draw Essence is easily acquired elsewhere and there's two magicka armor sources of Minor Maim.

I have asked for other magicka weapons, several times. As have others. Still waiting. That doesn't change the fact that neither S&B nor DW currently have any magicka skills or do magic/elemental damage for any of the magicka classes.

Anti_Virus · June 2018

NBrookus wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

StamDK:
Deep breath turned to stam, heals and increases the damage of your next attack by 5% per enemy succ'd. Both morphs have a slightly stronger heal.

Burning talons costs and scales of stam. Now deals poison damage.

MagDK needs a little stand your ground buff too. Both morphs getting a defense or damage bonus would be good. But if only one, I'd rather stam take the other morph.

You also asked for the damage morph of talons converted to stam. While stam has THREE melee weapons to choose damage skills from, Mag DK has ZERO melee weapon skills for damage.

You keep making this argument which has no merit or substance and is very weak, so what? The stamina variant of the class still doesn't feel like a dk which is a pain point. BooHoo you only have destro staff as a magicka weapon but then again you don't, you too can utilized sword and shield/dual wield like every other mag build.

now let's say you had more options to choose from other than destruction staff what will it accomplish? mag dk is already really powerful in pvp and pve.

instead of hoarding class skills that you will Never use just to be in spite, why don't you suggest more magicka weapon skill lines?

Who said anything about spite or hoarding? I was a stam DK before any other class I have, so I have sympathy that most stam DKs want more stam class morphs. All I am saying is don't gut magDK's damage options to get there since that's all we've got. Draw Essence or Choking Talons are better morph options for stam. The mag return on Draw Essence is easily acquired elsewhere and there's two magicka armor sources of Minor Maim.

I have asked for other magicka weapons, several times. As have others. Still waiting. That doesn't change the fact that neither S&B nor DW currently have any magicka skills or do magic/elemental damage for any of the magicka classes.

I made a suggestion on the front page for both morphs of talons to have minor maim, for inhale to have the interrupt and for flame whip to have the weapon/spell damage as a baseline effect. Then one morph deals flame and the other poison.

that way mag dks still retain the mechanic of the skill while stam dks can have more class identity through poison theme skills.

you might have an issue with this suggestion though because to you that might be "gutting" magDK, but it's the best I could come up with.

Osubaker33 · June 2018

From a PVE MagDk persepective

1. Would really like to see the range on Burning Embers increased to at a minimum 8m. Ideally 10m. Would make it a lot easier to hit pve mobs in fights with a lot of movement. Would also enable its usage for those that want a ranged magdk and are not using whip.

2. Inhale and morphs - this needs to be reworked. Clunky garbage skill IMO.

Ragnarock41 · June 2018

Aerem wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Aerem wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

QOL:
[*] Deep breath turned to stam, heals and increases the damage of your next attack by 5% per enemy succ'd. Both morphs have a slightly stronger heal.

This would be massively OP, hit 6 people with Deep Breath, have a 30% empowered leap or DB. Yikes.

Empowered leaps existed last patch for both mDK and sDK. And no It wasn't really broken.

Sure but, it was 10% for StamDK with a 2h heavy and 20% for Mdk with entropy/chains, but ferocious leap also has a lower tooltip than take flight, I am just concerned about tripling the "empower" for stam dks, because then it gets into the stamden combos of shalk/DB dead, except here its Deep Breath/Leap dead.

I am all for a stam morph of Deep Breath though, I think that would be awesome, I just hesitate with the empower.

@ak_pvp

I was actually talking about wrecking blow empower buff. As rare as it was, it actually boosted take flight by %20. It was a good way to make up for the lack of group utility stamDK offers, since a hard hitting AoE ult is always useful in any small scale group.(which is now dominated by stamdens for AoE, stamblade for single target damage.)

Also Ferocious hits just as hard as take flight, The only difference is that ferocious leap(Which is meant for magDKs) does fire damage+has a shield(fire damage = %20 extra vs vampires btw) and TF does physical, so on a stamDk obviously you're gonna see better tooltip on TF , due to your stats and CP.

(Now this kinda made me remember that one dude who kept insisting on using Ferocious on his stamDK, his leaps were hitting barely 3-4k... don't be that guy people. Pick the morph that scales from your damage type.)

And we're talking about a potential situation where you're perfectly tagging 6 players with deep breath ,and also hitting a perfect leap afterwards. Deep breath , by design has a very obvious visual que and a delay mechanic before its burst. Its not like shalks where you can just count to 3 and then ambush people and blast them off before they can even react. Its kind of different.

ak_pvp · June 2018

NBrookus wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

StamDK:
Deep breath turned to stam, heals and increases the damage of your next attack by 5% per enemy succ'd. Both morphs have a slightly stronger heal.

Burning talons costs and scales of stam. Now deals poison damage.

MagDK needs a little stand your ground buff too. Both morphs getting a defense or damage bonus would be good. But if only one, I'd rather stam take the other morph.

You also asked for the damage morph of talons converted to stam. While stam has THREE melee weapons to choose damage skills from, Mag DK has ZERO melee weapon skills for damage.

You keep making this argument which has no merit or substance and is very weak, so what? The stamina variant of the class still doesn't feel like a dk which is a pain point. BooHoo you only have destro staff as a magicka weapon but then again you don't, you too can utilized sword and shield/dual wield like every other mag build.

now let's say you had more options to choose from other than destruction staff what will it accomplish? mag dk is already really powerful in pvp and pve.

instead of hoarding class skills that you will Never use just to be in spite, why don't you suggest more magicka weapon skill lines?

Who said anything about spite or hoarding? I was a stam DK before any other class I have, so I have sympathy that most stam DKs want more stam class morphs. All I am saying is don't gut magDK's damage options to get there since that's all we've got. Draw Essence or Choking Talons are better morph options for stam. The mag return on Draw Essence is easily acquired elsewhere and there's two magicka armor sources of Minor Maim.

I have asked for other magicka weapons, several times. As have others. Still waiting. That doesn't change the fact that neither S&B nor DW currently have any magicka skills or do magic/elemental damage for any of the magicka classes.

Choking has to be mag as it is a tank skill in PvE, and IMO the superior morph, I do wish it dealt fire damage but no dot.

Mag has enough dots.

WhiteNoiseMaker · June 2018

I don't mean to be a stick-in-the-mud, but we keep digressing off the intent of the thread:

To list and detail pain points of the Dragon Knight class, not to propose home brew fixes, or rant about Stam-DK arguments that have taken over countless threads. Just list the grievances, don't argue, don't rant, be concise and objective about what's bothering you when you play this class. :-)

For my part, here's what I think...

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_Wrobel
@Quantum_V

My main "pain points" are actually somewhat mitigated lately by the recent changes in Summerset, but I still would like to elaborate on what frustrates me.

DK suffers from a distinct identity crisis. In the past it was an aggressive and often over-powered main-battle-tank, in that it had stand-up endurance, sustain, great protection, and the ability to break enemies down through its class abilities. That time was brief and curtailed severely after the first balance passes ESO went through. Now it has can't seem to do anything well at all. The new healing changes are a good start, but are too new to really feel like a comfortable suit yet.

So what's there for DK?

Well, both stam/mag DK have been emasculated in the damage department, losing the off-balance and Power Lash uniqueness it used to possess. There's almost nothing outstanding about the damage class abilities, and the passives feel woefully outdated (because they were truly meant for a game that has long since evolved into something new) , the 'pain' here is that there's nothing to be proud of if playing a DK in damage role, because all the best abilities and synergistic advantages are found out of class. Sure a skilled player can make the DK work, but the effort, time, and gold spent would have resulted in better results with another class.

I have listed most of my pain points about tanking as a DK in the Tanking feedback thread. But I will reiterate, the META is not rewarding, fulfilling, or even fun to play for the DK in the Tank role so long as it remains a slave to the META revolving around damage-dealing. As I have mentioned, it's currently demoralizing and humiliating. In fact, the popular and widely confirmed perception is that the DK has lost its place in terms of buffs when Warden came along, the only jewel left in the DK crown is/was Relentless Grip (chains), and now that there are other options, I am no longer certain of that place of preeminence.

I think the most painful thing is that in terms of lore, flavor, and playstyle, this class has so much rich potential, that the diehards amongst us want to really keep it going, but the viability is just not there. It is like supporting a B-team at this point, we're loyal and want to see it make it back to the major leagues, but it hurts to see it misused and mismanaged every new season that a balance pass or DLC comes into play. There's a lot of bitterness which is why you see every DK forum thread devolve into the Stam/Mag rants and infighting. Players are eating themselves for lack of any sustenance that would bring a sense of nourishment to the 'brand identity' of the class.

Take a look back at the first ideal of the class as presented within our own lore pages in ESO:

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Legacy_of_the_Dragonguard
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dragon_Knights#Dragon_Knights

The fall from grace has from what we read to what we play now, is heartbreaking.

Maulkin · June 2018

There's many good suggestions in here. Many reasonable repeating requests like:
- Stam Whip (since Molten Ship is useless anyway)
- Evasion on Eruption/Cinder Storm
- 8m distance for Claws and morphs

I personally think giving Scales snare immunity without other changes to it, would be majorly overloading the skill. It's already very strong against particular class/builds. Shuts off a ton of incoming damage and CC. I'm not against Mag classes getting snare immunity but not on their most powerful skills already. I think not adding it to Channelled Acceleration was a missed opportunity to be honest.

Generally the problems that I see are:
- StamDK below par in PvP and needs help. Though very strong in PvE Tank and DPS roles.
- MagDK not really desirable in PvE. Strong melee DPS but its one useful group buff is already provided by the tank and has sustain issues
- MagDK needs some QoL improvements in PvP, but not major buffing.

My ideas would revolve around the reworking of 3 skills: Noxious Breath, Venomous Claw and Molten Weapons.

- Venomous Claw. I would add Major Fracture leaving the rest unchanged.

This is mostly a QoL improvement. It removes the need for Stam DK to run Ransack or Englulfing Flames which is very clunky. Opens a slot up for the use of a Stam Whip or Crushining Weapons (Psijic spammable) or Heroic Slash in PvP. It brings it more on par with Burning Embers which has a strong secondary effect, or Surprise Attack.

- Noxious Breath. Remove the DoT component (only instant dmg) and remove Major Fracture. Turn it into a double debuff skill for PvE tanking purposes.

Noxious Breath: Reduce the target's Weapon/Spell Damage by {x} (like a Crushing Weapon enchant) and induce a vulnerability to poison increasing the damage they receive from poison attacks by {y} percent.

Maybe make the poison a specific minor/major debuff that doesn't stack with Morg Tong set. Or something along those lines.

It's immediately useless for PvP where it's already a very clunky skill to run, but it becomes a must debuff for Tanks. And If DK Tanks in PvE have to run this skill, then they won't be running Engulfing Flames. Which means a MagDK melee DPS is desirable for increasing the group's total flame dmg against the boss. The DPS loss for Stam Builds will be covered with the next change mentioned below

- Molten Weapons. Both morphs lose the Major Brutality/Sorcery, it's a useless buff for PvP and PvE. Drastic changes for both morphs to become a PvE DPS relevant skills for Mag and Stam DKs

Base Morph: Reduce the charge time for heavy attacks by 15%. Imbues light/attacks with {x} points of Flame Damage
Poisoned Weapons. Reduces the cost by 15% (still costs magicka, it's a buff skill) but instead of Flame Damage it deals Poison Damage
Molten Armaments. Charge time for heavy attacks is decreased by a further 15% (total 30%) and resources returned from fully charged heavy attacks is increased by 15%

Poisoned Weapons becomes essentially a stamina DoT in PvE covering the DPS loss from Noxious Breath. Also helps with sustain when weaving heavies.
Molten Armaments will likely replace Trap on the DPS bar of MagDKs. It won't be a significant DPS increase in a burst fight compared to Trap (tuned to be on par) but in longer fights it becomes a great sustain skill by allowing MagDKs to weave heavy attacks to good effect without suffering a DPS loss from the long charge time (and also would have to do it less often due to the higher return)