[Class Rep] Dragonknight Feedback Thread

ak_pvp

WhiteNoiseMaker wrote: »

I don't mean to be a stick-in-the-mud, but we keep digressing off the intent of the thread:

To list and detail pain points of the Dragon Knight class, not to propose home brew fixes, or rant about Stam-DK arguments that have taken over countless threads. Just list the grievances, don't argue, don't rant, be concise and objective about what's bothering you when you play this class. :-)

For my part, here's what I think...

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_Wrobel
@Quantum_V

My main "pain points" are actually somewhat mitigated lately by the recent changes in Summerset, but I still would like to elaborate on what frustrates me.

DK suffers from a distinct identity crisis. In the past it was an aggressive and often over-powered main-battle-tank, in that it had stand-up endurance, sustain, great protection, and the ability to break enemies down through its class abilities. That time was brief and curtailed severely after the first balance passes ESO went through. Now it has can't seem to do anything well at all. The new healing changes are a good start, but are too new to really feel like a comfortable suit yet.

So what's there for DK?

Well, both stam/mag DK have been emasculated in the damage department, losing the off-balance and Power Lash uniqueness it used to possess. There's almost nothing outstanding about the damage class abilities, and the passives feel woefully outdated (because they were truly meant for a game that has long since evolved into something new) , the 'pain' here is that there's nothing to be proud of if playing a DK in damage role, because all the best abilities and synergistic advantages are found out of class. Sure a skilled player can make the DK work, but the effort, time, and gold spent would have resulted in better results with another class.

I have listed most of my pain points about tanking as a DK in the Tanking feedback thread. But I will reiterate, the META is not rewarding, fulfilling, or even fun to play for the DK in the Tank role so long as it remains a slave to the META revolving around damage-dealing. As I have mentioned, it's currently demoralizing and humiliating. In fact, the popular and widely confirmed perception is that the DK has lost its place in terms of buffs when Warden came along, the only jewel left in the DK crown is/was Relentless Grip (chains), and now that there are other options, I am no longer certain of that place of preeminence.

I think the most painful thing is that in terms of lore, flavor, and playstyle, this class has so much rich potential, that the diehards amongst us want to really keep it going, but the viability is just not there. It is like supporting a B-team at this point, we're loyal and want to see it make it back to the major leagues, but it hurts to see it misused and mismanaged every new season that a balance pass or DLC comes into play. There's a lot of bitterness which is why you see every DK forum thread devolve into the Stam/Mag rants and infighting. Players are eating themselves for lack of any sustenance that would bring a sense of nourishment to the 'brand identity' of the class.

Take a look back at the first ideal of the class as presented within our own lore pages in ESO:

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Legacy_of_the_Dragonguard
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dragon_Knights#Dragon_Knights

The fall from grace has from what we read to what we play now, is heartbreaking.

Basically this.

A sorc can CC better, a warden and template heal/tank comparatively or better, wings is outclassed by everything, mobility is worst, sustain is low but not worst, any steam class can pressure better, most classes can burst better.

It's mediocre overall, and incredibly sacrificial to do so.

the_Beard

I've been seeing a lot of feedback for eruption granting evasion (like it used to). What if this were added to the other morph, cinder storm, but the eruption morph received a different treatment?

Keep in mind, the below feedback is purely from a pve perspective. I think magdk currently needs more help in that department than it does in pvp, because most raids STILL do not want a magdk in group taking a melee position.

In its current form, eruption is pretty weak compared to the other damage dealing abilities DK has. It may have a long timer (18s), but its damage is pretty weak if you compare it to other abilities such as liquid lightning or endless hail. Gilliam mentioned this quite some time ago, and I think it would help bring magdk up a bit higher in dps for pve, which it needs to compete with the likes of stamblade for a melee spot. And with buffing the damage to eruption, it wouldn't make magDK over the top powerful in pvp because the general population in cyrodiil isn't going to be dumb enough to stand in an eruption ground dot. At 4k magicka per cast, I really feel like the damage morph of this skill should be doing more than it currently is.

Another idea I heard from others is what if it returned magicka (or max resource I suppose) at the end of its duration, similar to siphoning from nightblade. Sustain is still an issue for magdk in pve, as you cannot get through a 3mil target dummy without either being fed orbs, using witchmothers and starting your rotation at the end of a pot cooldown and using your ult during your second rotation, or by using spell symmetry a few times during the parse.

Edit: Also adding some ideas for stamdk pve. Currently stamdk is dead in the water for any end-game raid group. A stamdk wearing sunderflame simply cannot outparse a stamplar, and aside from granting aoe fracture via noxious, there is no reason for a competitive raid group to bring a stamdk over a stamplar that does more damage.

Due to the nerf to heavy attacks, and the recent buff to light attacks, doing the old meta heavy attack rotation on a stamdk yields very poor dps. And even though they can do decent dps with a light attack rotation utilizing the new crushing weapon from psijic skill line, the sustain is VERY poor.

What if noxious breath and/or venomous claw were both granted a slight damage boost, and returned stamina upon the dot expiration to help in the sustain department? That could also help with some of the pvp issues stamdk deal with as well.

Swimguy

Aerem wrote: »

PVP MAGDK:

1. Outdated Passives: elder dragon, World in ruin, iron skin, battle roar
2. outdated skills: molten armaments, standard, wings, magma armor, stone fist, ash cloud

honestly the same for stam dk too. But battle roar is fun and why I play DK

TrollHunter73

I've been playing this game since release on Xbox... I have over 250 hours played on my Nord-Dragonknight (Stamina based) Tank. The changes made in the Summerset patch have completely gimped my character in PvP, and made him nearly unnecessary in most PvE content. Before Summerset was released I looked forward to playing every day. I'm seriously considering quitting now. I'm really hoping something is done to fix the issues plaguing this class.

JumpmanLane

TrollHunter73 wrote: »

I've been playing this game since release on Xbox... I have over 250 hours played on my Nord-Dragonknight (Stamina based) Tank. The changes made in the Summerset patch have completely gimped my character in PvP, and made him nearly unnecessary in most PvE content. Before Summerset was released I looked forward to playing every day. I'm seriously considering quitting now. I'm really hoping something is done to fix the issues plaguing this class.

I totally feel your pain. I basically shelved my StamDK for PvP and rolled a magdk. In PvE my StamDK holds up pretty good though to not play it at all.

I could Sload my StamDK up. Slap on Skoria or Zaan and cheese my way through Cyrodill. DW/Bow and proc Sloads, bleed and snipe/bow tard my way to tier 3 rewards but not my idea of fun. Oh well...

Lord_Eomer

My favourite tank class for PVE. Some improvement can help especially DK most passive bonus comes from Slotting or using Skill.

They need some passive that grant bonus without slotting or using skill.

ak_pvp

Elder dragon: When you lose HP, you gain 10/20 spell damage for 5s stacking up to a maximum of 10 times. Fits the stand ur ground brawler style.

BP_Sparty

I want to add a suggestion for the stand your ground brawler build.

Can Magma shell lose the shield granted to allies and instead have major heroism to sell ( and possible allies)?

What I personally want is for the base skill to give minor heroism while slotted and magma shell to get major heroism and corrosive can keep the penetration. That way it is a buff to both mag and stamdk whose original identity is to be the "Tank" and this could make it the tank again and would help with sustain via battle roar for both mag and stam

WaltherCarraway

[Edited out profanity]

kts

PVE MagDK DPS

Be nice to see magDK get a buff in the ranged department. Seriously when was the last time you saw a ranged magDK in a vet trial. I get that we're a brawler "all up in your face" melee distance class alongside magplars but just look at magblade for instance, they're probably the most diverse class as of now that can play both ranged and melee exceptionally well.

Melee spots are almost always taken by stamina builds who pull much higher so that leaves magDK to go ranged but then those spots are taken by magsorc/magblades because we're mediocre in that area too.

Aedaryl

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Current state of Dragonknight

Please learn to play, really.

@Aedaryl
Yep, you have no idea what and who are you talking about.

From what I've seen that your brain is too small to understand the insight behind this picture plus i don't need somone who has DK only as crafter to ask me L2P

lol, wanabe-MLG soyboy

You really neeed to l2p.

The easiest way to see it is when you compare classes whitout taking the respective magicka and stamina version

Adenoma

@ak_pvp , I love that elder dragon reboot. I'd scale it even more aggressively - make it a diet version of fury for both magicka and stamina. It'd be a more PvP-focused change for a passive that'd have a lower impact in PvE where there's less regular incoming damage. Really reinforces the stand-your-ground playstyle too.

D0ntevenL1ft

Savos_Saren wrote: »

All right. Getting back on point here.

Stamina DK suggestions:

-Make Deep Breath poison damage (so it can benefit from World in Ruin passive)

This, it would give the DK a Sub assault similar ability except without the speed, regen, and ulti generation of a warden.

Add a small empowering buff for each amount of person hit and you got yourself a competitive class again.

the_Beard

Adding one more comment here in terms of MagDK dps output in a competitive end-game pve trials group. I main'd magDK for years, way back when they were very strong, pre-homestead (and during) pulling single target numbers above 50k on rakkhat (which was very high back then). I think we're making steps in the right direction as MagDK can hit decent numbers again, but some people argue that the dps output is currently fine, and it's a l2p issue. While I sort of agree that it doesn't need a massive buff, I also disagree because no one in their right mind is going to take a magDK in a trial over a stamblade doing 70k+ single target.

MagDK simply cannot hit those kinds of numbers. The L2P argument does not work here. There are NO magDKs hitting those numbers, anywhere that I'm aware of. In terms of magicka dps they're not in a bad spot, but they're not going to out-damage a stamblade wearing relequen/yokeda/selene (or even relequen/wm). I myself have re-rolled to stamblade as it is simply the current meta for top dps. It took me only a short amount of time to farm my gear and learn how to play the class, to immediately out-dps my long-time played magDK. The same can also be said for stamDK right now.

Do stamDK and magDK do terrible dps? No, not at all. The inherent problem is that they cannot compete with stamblade/magblade. And so most/all raid groups interested in pushing score want as many stamblade/magblade possible in their dps roster. The reason I mention magblade here is because they can be ranged and still pull high numbers, while still letting 3-4 stamblades take the melee spots. In order for these types of groups to want a magDK in their group, it needs to be possible (with a good player and good rotation) to pull comparable numbers to stamblade, while still giving group utility via things like engulfing flames, which I've heard many tanks say they wished they could drop from their skillbar to let a magdk handle.

Quantum_V

Hey all!

We surely appreciate all the feedback being given. We're taking careful notes of everything. Yet, lets please try to stay to the point as much as we can.

Thanks!

Toc de Malsvi

Pain point, Igneous Weapons. It only affects 6 people, it costs half my magicka pool, the players that could use it are missing so many light attacks that it isn't changing much, the other players just don't need it. I want major brut but this skill is not good.

Savos_Saren

@Quantum_V

When's the next Class Representative meeting with the Devs?

VonSwaego

Two main “pain points”? Easy.

1. Cost of DK skills to high.
2. Sustain.
Think I see an opportunity for two birds with one stone here....

Renegade1O

On my mag dk I have a ton of healing via Burning Embers, cauterize, and power lash. On my stam dk I have barely half the healing of my mag. I never understood why Green Dragon Blood was never a stamina morph when it is clearly designed to benefit stamina classes. That would help a lot.

We also need a stam equivalent of power Lash. Stam DK's have to rely heavily on weapon skills for burst because they have none via class skills.

kts

Increase the range of engulfing flames into a ranged ability so magDK's can be somewhat viable at long range and still provide support to the group.

Quantum_V

Savos_Saren wrote: »

@Quantum_V

When's the next Class Representative meeting with the Devs?

Hey @Savos_Saren !

Our next meeting will be during the PTS cycle. It will most likely be oriented to PTS changes.

BohnT

Quantum_V wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

@Quantum_V

When's the next Class Representative meeting with the Devs?

Hey @Savos_Saren !

Our next meeting will be during the PTS cycle. It will most likely be oriented to PTS changes.

Is it possible that weapon skills, guild lines etc are touched in a future Meeting?

PS : you got any special information when the pts will be released?

Quantum_V

BohnT wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

@Quantum_V

When's the next Class Representative meeting with the Devs?

Hey @Savos_Saren !

Our next meeting will be during the PTS cycle. It will most likely be oriented to PTS changes.

Is it possible that weapon skills, guild lines etc are touched in a future Meeting?

PS : you got any special information when the pts will be released?

Hey @BohnT !

Yeah, absolutely. Factors that aren't necessarily restricted to the class skills spectrum can still affect balance overall. Some weapon skill lines might favor, or not, determined classes based on their effects and the overall sync with those classes. Due to that we can surely bring topics that exceed classes into future meetings.

As far as the PTS, we do not know - judging by the pace of things it shouldn't be too far.

BohnT

Quantum_V wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

@Quantum_V

When's the next Class Representative meeting with the Devs?

Hey @Savos_Saren !

Our next meeting will be during the PTS cycle. It will most likely be oriented to PTS changes.

Is it possible that weapon skills, guild lines etc are touched in a future Meeting?

PS : you got any special information when the pts will be released?

Hey @BohnT !

Yeah, absolutely. Factors that aren't necessarily restricted to the class skills spectrum can still affect balance overall. Some weapon skill lines might favor, or not, determined classes based on their effects and the overall sync with classes. Due to that we can surely bring that into future meetings.

As far as the PTS, we do not know - judging by the pace of things it shouldn't be too far.

Thank you very much for your answer

the_Beard

Thanks for the update quantum

What are people's thoughts with Molten Armaments? With the recent changes to heavy attack (reduced damage with summerset patch), and the meta now once again being light attacks, which received a massive buff to encourage light attacks in a dps rotation, it only makes sense to take a look at molten armements.

As it now stands, there currently is no reason to use this skill anymore. Both magicka and stamina dps use pots for the weapon/spell damage boost, so the base morph and the igneous morph are still useless. And now the molten morph is useless because we are encouraged to use light attacks for more dps, and to only use heavy attacks to help return resources.

I wonder if it would be beneficial to change this skill to focus on light attacks rather than heavy attacks, or if that would be too much of a buff. Either way, something should be changed here as well.

Farscape76

I know its been written many times but I have to put in my request for a stamina spammable. It would be nice not to rely on weapon skills or guild skills for that. Stamwhip seems to make the most sense but at this point just give us something.

InBedWithMySelf

Zenimax online studios, deep down we all love you, and we love this game, please take a moment to consider this:

I want to briefly focus on what's important.

Dragon-knights will never function, at-least in pvp (they're fine in pve) because of battle spirit, mostly.

Make the heal from dragon's blood not interact with the healing de-buff. It's a health based ability, therefore it will never function otherwise. (Coaglating blood is weird, I'm not sure what to say about that morph, but it's pretty weak).

Dragon scales: ... what ever, there are bigger problems than the 4 projectile limit.

Cinder-storm is an earthen heart ability, just like the rest of the Earthen-Heart skill line, and yet it gives no utility. Change the healing to a 15% dodge chance when standing inside cinder storm, you can leave the slow effect in there, and suddenly you have a functional cinder-storm.(Also make the cinder-storm morph automatically cast on top of you, like it used to a long time ago), leave the eruption morph as it is.

I don't want to make this too long to read. If you make these two changes, Dragon-knights will start functioning properly, the changes will make a large difference. None of the mentioned changes will affect pve in an unfair manner, and will give Dragon-knights the natural tanky-ness they're suppose to have, and deserve.

Sincerely yours, InBedWithMySelf
Have a good day.

Joxer61

VonSwaego wrote: »

Two main “pain points”? Easy.

1. Cost of DK skills to high.
2. Sustain.
Think I see an opportunity for two birds with one stone here....

Ditto.....

Still_Mind

A couple more thoughts.

I feel that DKs need at least some of the following:

Unnerfed and expanded damage return mechanics. I really liked the Eye for an Eye mechanic for Retribution (I think) Paladins in WoW, which returned a portion of critical damage taken to the attacker. Reckoning-crits taken accumulate stacks that, upon reaching a certain count (say, 5), give a strong buff to your next attack, or activate a skill a la Grim Focus.

Get stronger by getting attacked/debuffed. DKs don't have a lot of ways of dealing with snares, defiles and other debuffs. Why not embrace them? Slap on a passive that increases healing, or decreases damage taken, or reduces costs of skills for each debuff present on the Dragon Knight.

Xvorg

Guys, I am SICK of poison dmg suggestions. It was never a good idea to start with and it will never be a good idea unless ZoS brings a complete weapon line based on poison dmg (melee) or makes the poison status something way more useful that a couple of ticks (disease dmg gives minor defile, frost minor maim and shock minor vulner, not to mention bleeds that go through mitigation). Burning status is better than the poison status, and burning is crap. So ZoS gave DKs not only the worst passives in the game, but also the 2 worst dmg elements that bring nothing to the table. Maybe they have done sometghing with combustion, related to regain resources when the status is up, but with a 5 secs CD is little what they can help.

So, what would I do to make those statuses useful for DKs? I would simple make them a little bit stronger (50%), while reworking WiR: Poison and dmg status increase their dmg up to a 300% while effecting enemies under the 50% health

That's WORLD IN RUIN, that's a dot, that's the execute DKs should have... and that makes the charged trait a desirable trait for DKs