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[Class Rep] Dragonknight Feedback Thread
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Bodycounter✭✭✭✭The three biggest problems with the Dragonknight for me are:
1. Several abilities should work like Soul Trap in a way that their damage type changes and scales off your maximum ressources. Abilities that need this Soul Trap treatment are Dragonknight Standard, Lava Whip, Inferno, Volatile Armor (morph only), Burning Talons (morph only), Coagulating Blood (morph only) and Ash Cloud.
2. Most of the Passives of the Dragonknight are outdated and do not keep up with the modern design of the game. There is not a single passive for healers for example. Warmth is just meh, Searing Heat should be a flat damage and duration increase for all damage of time effects, World in Ruin should increase all Flame and Poison damage while decreasing their cost.
3. There are only two unique buffs left to the Dragonknight: Minor Brutality and Stagger. Both are done by the tank so there is no need for a Dragonknight damage dealer or healer. Necromancers on the other hand can be stacked without hurting your group.3 -
yeyesil✭✭Ok, but why is literally every class far, far better at healing? And templars definitely used to complain about PvE tanking, and for good reason. Probably not so much now that it's been addressed. So why can't DK healing and damage and sustain be addressed too?
What do you mean, pvp or pve healing? If we talk about pvp, dk has one of the best healing in this game. If we talk about pve healing then we dont even need to argue because dk is not a pve healer class but still the class has one of the best heals. It only doesn't have enough utility skills for a pve group thats why organized groups dont prefer dk healers and most pve raids prefer dk tank so they can utililize dk passives via tanks.Show me these mythical 100k+ DPS Stam DKs that also buff groups with stagger. Show me. Because right now, and for several patches actually, Stam DK is the absolute worst DPS in trials even when taking an actual spammable and not the heaping pile of steaming garbage calling itself Stone Giant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEJVl_cDAiE
Here there are 3 different build with 97k, 99k and 100k dps. Some players can also pull 101k dps with master dw setup.
We need to focus on real problems that need to be fixed so giving objective feedback is crucial to fix the class, not to make it OP like in old days or the playstyle you want. I've played the class since the beginning and yes it's not as powerful as the old days but quite balanced now.
We just need better magdk sustain, less costs of magicka skills and finally as it's a dot class, we can get a dot based execute so that noone can complain about it.
For stamdk we can get a better spammable skill with a better animation that suits better with dk playstyle.
For both mag and stam dk, we need the old wings as it's the identity skill of the class that noone can use at the moment. Other spell absorb and reflect skills are far better than wings now.
3 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭My top two pain points are the absurd COST of their abilities (they have the worst sustain of all pve magicka classes) and the lack of competitive power after dots were nerfed so badly. I speak of pve of course. In pvp I stopped playing one long ago when my wings were neutered into an unrecognizable state and classes in general became far less fun in general.Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna6 -
Jodynn✭✭✭✭✭
✭My main problem is sustain for both pvp and pve, damage, and lack of interest or insight.
The only sustain passives we have are for burning and ultimate use.
Ult if you hold onto you are screwed (except pvp for healthy recovery but your mag sucks terribly). A nice Dragonknight passive would be give us magicka/stamina recovery for how much ult we have, to balance out this problem.
Burning EVEN with charged I don't have enough sustain EVEN with parse food and 7k health less than my sorc friend (we both khajiit) who can spam frags all day and never run out of sustain ( I don't want cast time whip please don't mistake that )
Now let's look at burning itself. Burning is great, but sustain and more damage only on burning isn't enough to spec into it, but we still have to because a charged weapon is the closest thing we're going to get to sustain. Now, I love burning, but it needs something more, if burning is applied then ALL fire should do more damage FOR us, don't change engulfing, keep it group utility, but give us this IN addition to what it normally does.
Point is, it's not good enough even when I build for it.
Next pain point, Zen's, and buff sets to begin with, gives nothing special to the user, so you are a buffer, not a dps, it will never be comparable to someone wearing Siroria, AND it has a line of magicka recovery, great for healers, not dps. For me it's not fun knowing I'm handicapped, not my playstyle, not my personality.
Lastly, the lack of insight and understanding of class direction, I think a common theme is melee, dots, and fire.
I feel like a half baked melee class, yeah the ability to use dual wield now is great, but what we're sorely lacking is sustain and an execute, our passives suck really bad.
Few ways of solving this..
Give us access to a way to make bleeding/physical/magic into fire damage that isn't overencumbering(a one slot toggle like vamp skill make igneous useful or just a toggle you don't slot think first passive of destruction line some slotted some didn't), this would give access to two skill line abilities in pve and three in pvp (I could use shield bash probably if I really wanted). Round about way but then I would get access to more skills. (I'll also finally quit complaining about barbed trap.. mostly)
Another way and more easy way is probably add onto one of our passives to reduce the cost of fire damage skills.
Mentioned passives suck right? Every time I play another class I get that feeling of power slotting animal companions, any sorc skill, assassination because it gives me a boost.. but we get.. health recovery.... cool.. for backbar pvp but... dps wise... surely you see the point?
Give us a passive that turns dots into an execute, not overpowered, fits the class theme of fire and dots, and we NEED an execute to compete.
Seething fury for whip should be all fire or all Dragonknight abilities, including whip itself.
I have many more things that would make this class more fun for me I will post sometime in, but the class isn't just about me, it's about everyone who identifies with it, and of course the other roles other than magDK. The points above would help with your current model of sustain, give power back to magDK, and fit our theme.
Edited by Jodynn on April 22, 2021 11:44AMJodynn PC NA
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.4 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭BejaProphet wrote: »@yeyesil pve templars absolutely complain about tanking. For the record.
This is like the main templar thread2 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭As the person that dug this thread out of the abyss a few months ago, I can see exactly why ZoS has not done anything with the stam DK at this point.
Every other post is about how mDK players not only want buffs, but think stamina deserves none, outside of a stam whip.
As I mentioned above, sDk and mDk pull from the same sustain tools as well as the same damage tools.
What does this mean:
1. Combustion and Battle Roar are the only methods for resources return for either resource. World in ruin cuts cost for stamina, but unless you are running exclusively bow/bow, this only impacts claws and breath, which are 2 ability out of the 10 on your bar.
2. Searing heat is the only DPS buff for either resource, and it only effects class abilities. World in ruin at least adds more damage to the mDK tool kit, also buffing relevant abilities destro staff abilities.
There is an argument for cost reduction for mDK, but please keep in mind the class currently is the poorest stamina DPS alternative at the moment, and if the flame whip is currently not enough to boost the mDK dps to standard, a poison whip will do no better for sDK.3 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »As the person that dug this thread out of the abyss a few months ago, I can see exactly why ZoS has not done anything with the stam DK at this point.
Every other post is about how mDK players not only want buffs, but think stamina deserves none, outside of a stam whip.
As I mentioned above, sDk and mDk pull from the same sustain tools as well as the same damage tools.
What does this mean:
1. Combustion and Battle Roar are the only methods for resources return for either resource. World in ruin cuts cost for stamina, but unless you are running exclusively bow/bow, this only impacts claws and breath, which are 2 ability out of the 10 on your bar.
2. Searing heat is the only DPS buff for either resource, and it only effects class abilities. World in ruin at least adds more damage to the mDK tool kit, also buffing relevant abilities destro staff abilities.
There is an argument for cost reduction for mDK, but please keep in mind the class currently is the poorest stamina DPS alternative at the moment, and if the flame whip is currently not enough to boost the mDK dps to standard, a poison whip will do no better for sDK.
Poison whip is a meme at this point... I wish everyone would just let it go.
Dragon Knight is and should be a DoT class, and what spammable you use should not really be important anyway IMO, because the bulk of DPS *should* come from sustaining your DoT rotation.
I personally don't have a lot of sustain issues with my Magicka DK, but that is because she is a Breton and I also run Perfected False God's... so in a way I guess I do have a sustain problem, but I found a work around.
I actually like the fact that DK does not have an execute, but I think that should be figured into the overall DPS better. For example if we had an added mechanic similar to the Z'en's Redress 5 Piece bonus as a passive. "Enemies with the Touch of Z'en take an additional 1% more damage for each damage over time effect you've placed on them, up to 5%."
Maybe we could even have the opposite of Bloodthirsty as a passive where we start at full power at 100% health and have it decrease as we get closer to 0...
There are lots of options here, but I would prefer them to be tied to sustaining our DoT rotation as opposed to adding a execute to my skill bar.
Playing since beta...1 -
LightYagami✭✭✭✭✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »As the person that dug this thread out of the abyss a few months ago, I can see exactly why ZoS has not done anything with the stam DK at this point.
Every other post is about how mDK players not only want buffs, but think stamina deserves none, outside of a stam whip.
As I mentioned above, sDk and mDk pull from the same sustain tools as well as the same damage tools.
What does this mean:
1. Combustion and Battle Roar are the only methods for resources return for either resource. World in ruin cuts cost for stamina, but unless you are running exclusively bow/bow, this only impacts claws and breath, which are 2 ability out of the 10 on your bar.
2. Searing heat is the only DPS buff for either resource, and it only effects class abilities. World in ruin at least adds more damage to the mDK tool kit, also buffing relevant abilities destro staff abilities.
There is an argument for cost reduction for mDK, but please keep in mind the class currently is the poorest stamina DPS alternative at the moment, and if the flame whip is currently not enough to boost the mDK dps to standard, a poison whip will do no better for sDK.
Poison whip is a meme at this point... I wish everyone would just let it go.
Dragon Knight is and should be a DoT class, and what spammable you use should not really be important anyway IMO, because the bulk of DPS *should* come from sustaining your DoT rotation.
I personally don't have a lot of sustain issues with my Magicka DK, but that is because she is a Breton and I also run Perfected False God's... so in a way I guess I do have a sustain problem, but I found a work around.
I actually like the fact that DK does not have an execute, but I think that should be figured into the overall DPS better. For example if we had an added mechanic similar to the Z'en's Redress 5 Piece bonus as a passive. "Enemies with the Touch of Z'en take an additional 1% more damage for each damage over time effect you've placed on them, up to 5%."
Maybe we could even have the opposite of Bloodthirsty as a passive where we start at full power at 100% health and have it decrease as we get closer to 0...
There are lots of options here, but I would prefer them to be tied to sustaining our DoT rotation as opposed to adding a execute to my skill bar.
You like no execution!??????
It seems you're a PvEer right? (you mentioned that you use false god which is a typical PvE set)
Execution in PvE may not be very essential bit it's very important in PvP.
Please come and play PvP versus good players for a few months with your Magdk and share your feelings about unable to use execution.
DoT isn't good in PvP either because other players can purge your DoT meaning that you can't even let all the DoTs land on your opponents, they just basically stop your DoT.
I switched from PvE to PvP. My magdk is a PvE flawless conquerer and PvP warlord. (The toon has been on VMA and Cyrodiil leaderboards a few times). I also solo'd vet group dungeons with my magdk. I guess I have some basic understanding about magdk in PvE and PvP.
PvE and PvP are basically two different games. One of the reasons why magdk is so bad in PvP is that ZOS focused main on PvE only.
With enough effort and experience, we can still make magdks work in PvP. Sometimes I can 1 v 1 kill high ranked good PvP classes like stamsorc Grand Overlord too, but it's really difficult.No improvement on Cyrodill servers -> no ESO plus renewal.4 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭@kojou
As someone that plays Redguard for his sDK, I can emphasize with you on a deep emotional level. One for finding the work around for sustain, but also because I know in PvE, the DK has a loaded bar space problem no other class has. That's why recommended the ramping up execute damage, particularly because the sorc already has damage that is higher the higher a targets health.2 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭@LightYagami
I agree with you, but for the opposite reasons. The DKs performance in PvE is held back by it overperforming in PvP. I say this because people that play against the DK, and some that excel with it can't tell the difference from you class out living another player and you actually DPSing someone down. For that reason the DK has a ton of survival passives and hardly any DPS passives, and ZoS doesn't no what to do with the class because any DPS teak that would finally make the class a contender in PvE, would make the tanky class even harder to fight.1 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LightYagami wrote: »ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »As the person that dug this thread out of the abyss a few months ago, I can see exactly why ZoS has not done anything with the stam DK at this point.
Every other post is about how mDK players not only want buffs, but think stamina deserves none, outside of a stam whip.
As I mentioned above, sDk and mDk pull from the same sustain tools as well as the same damage tools.
What does this mean:
1. Combustion and Battle Roar are the only methods for resources return for either resource. World in ruin cuts cost for stamina, but unless you are running exclusively bow/bow, this only impacts claws and breath, which are 2 ability out of the 10 on your bar.
2. Searing heat is the only DPS buff for either resource, and it only effects class abilities. World in ruin at least adds more damage to the mDK tool kit, also buffing relevant abilities destro staff abilities.
There is an argument for cost reduction for mDK, but please keep in mind the class currently is the poorest stamina DPS alternative at the moment, and if the flame whip is currently not enough to boost the mDK dps to standard, a poison whip will do no better for sDK.
Poison whip is a meme at this point... I wish everyone would just let it go.
Dragon Knight is and should be a DoT class, and what spammable you use should not really be important anyway IMO, because the bulk of DPS *should* come from sustaining your DoT rotation.
I personally don't have a lot of sustain issues with my Magicka DK, but that is because she is a Breton and I also run Perfected False God's... so in a way I guess I do have a sustain problem, but I found a work around.
I actually like the fact that DK does not have an execute, but I think that should be figured into the overall DPS better. For example if we had an added mechanic similar to the Z'en's Redress 5 Piece bonus as a passive. "Enemies with the Touch of Z'en take an additional 1% more damage for each damage over time effect you've placed on them, up to 5%."
Maybe we could even have the opposite of Bloodthirsty as a passive where we start at full power at 100% health and have it decrease as we get closer to 0...
There are lots of options here, but I would prefer them to be tied to sustaining our DoT rotation as opposed to adding a execute to my skill bar.
You like no execution!??????
It seems you're a PvEer right? (you mentioned that you use false god which is a typical PvE set)
Execution in PvE may not be very essential bit it's very important in PvP.
Please come and play PvP versus good players for a few months with your Magdk and share your feelings about unable to use execution.
DoT isn't good in PvP either because other players can purge your DoT meaning that you can't even let all the DoTs land on your opponents, they just basically stop your DoT.
I switched from PvE to PvP. My magdk is a PvE flawless conquerer and PvP warlord. (The toon has been on VMA and Cyrodiil leaderboards a few times). I also solo'd vet group dungeons with my magdk. I guess I have some basic understanding about magdk in PvE and PvP.
PvE and PvP are basically two different games. One of the reasons why magdk is so bad in PvP is that ZOS focused main on PvE only.
With enough effort and experience, we can still make magdks work in PvP. Sometimes I can 1 v 1 kill high ranked good PvP classes like stamsorc Grand Overlord too, but it's really difficult.
I have done both PvE and PvP on Magicka and Stamina DK. I respect your opinion, but I still disagree with you regarding an execute on the DK.
The challenge with the DK in my opinion is that the damage ramps up more slowly. I agree that this is a problem in PvP since players with purge can negate your damage, but purge is expensive, so if you make the other player use an expensive purge to remove your much cheaper DoT then you are still wining the game of attrition. Which is how I think playing a DK should be. It should be about negating damage with your mitigation and healing while keeping DoT pressure and a well timed ultimate for the kill. There are other classes with much more burst and even have executes if that is what you are in to.
My point is improvements around the DK should center around the class' fighting style and not around changing it into something else. We don't need what would essentially be a Nightblade that uses fire/poison and doesn't have cloak, we need a DK that is good at what DKs do.
Playing since beta...1 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭LightYagami wrote: »ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »As the person that dug this thread out of the abyss a few months ago, I can see exactly why ZoS has not done anything with the stam DK at this point.
Every other post is about how mDK players not only want buffs, but think stamina deserves none, outside of a stam whip.
As I mentioned above, sDk and mDk pull from the same sustain tools as well as the same damage tools.
What does this mean:
1. Combustion and Battle Roar are the only methods for resources return for either resource. World in ruin cuts cost for stamina, but unless you are running exclusively bow/bow, this only impacts claws and breath, which are 2 ability out of the 10 on your bar.
2. Searing heat is the only DPS buff for either resource, and it only effects class abilities. World in ruin at least adds more damage to the mDK tool kit, also buffing relevant abilities destro staff abilities.
There is an argument for cost reduction for mDK, but please keep in mind the class currently is the poorest stamina DPS alternative at the moment, and if the flame whip is currently not enough to boost the mDK dps to standard, a poison whip will do no better for sDK.
Poison whip is a meme at this point... I wish everyone would just let it go.
Dragon Knight is and should be a DoT class, and what spammable you use should not really be important anyway IMO, because the bulk of DPS *should* come from sustaining your DoT rotation.
I personally don't have a lot of sustain issues with my Magicka DK, but that is because she is a Breton and I also run Perfected False God's... so in a way I guess I do have a sustain problem, but I found a work around.
I actually like the fact that DK does not have an execute, but I think that should be figured into the overall DPS better. For example if we had an added mechanic similar to the Z'en's Redress 5 Piece bonus as a passive. "Enemies with the Touch of Z'en take an additional 1% more damage for each damage over time effect you've placed on them, up to 5%."
Maybe we could even have the opposite of Bloodthirsty as a passive where we start at full power at 100% health and have it decrease as we get closer to 0...
There are lots of options here, but I would prefer them to be tied to sustaining our DoT rotation as opposed to adding a execute to my skill bar.
You like no execution!??????
It seems you're a PvEer right? (you mentioned that you use false god which is a typical PvE set)
Execution in PvE may not be very essential bit it's very important in PvP.
Please come and play PvP versus good players for a few months with your Magdk and share your feelings about unable to use execution.
DoT isn't good in PvP either because other players can purge your DoT meaning that you can't even let all the DoTs land on your opponents, they just basically stop your DoT.
I switched from PvE to PvP. My magdk is a PvE flawless conquerer and PvP warlord. (The toon has been on VMA and Cyrodiil leaderboards a few times). I also solo'd vet group dungeons with my magdk. I guess I have some basic understanding about magdk in PvE and PvP.
PvE and PvP are basically two different games. One of the reasons why magdk is so bad in PvP is that ZOS focused main on PvE only.
With enough effort and experience, we can still make magdks work in PvP. Sometimes I can 1 v 1 kill high ranked good PvP classes like stamsorc Grand Overlord too, but it's really difficult.
I have done both PvE and PvP on Magicka and Stamina DK. I respect your opinion, but I still disagree with you regarding an execute on the DK.
The challenge with the DK in my opinion is that the damage ramps up more slowly. I agree that this is a problem in PvP since players with purge can negate your damage, but purge is expensive, so if you make the other player use an expensive purge to remove your much cheaper DoT then you are still wining the game of attrition. Which is how I think playing a DK should be. It should be about negating damage with your mitigation and healing while keeping DoT pressure and a well timed ultimate for the kill. There are other classes with much more burst and even have executes if that is what you are in to.
My point is improvements around the DK should center around the class' fighting style and not around changing it into something else. We don't need what would essentially be a Nightblade that uses fire/poison and doesn't have cloak, we need a DK that is good at what DKs do.
Uh, the actual "Purge" skill may be expensive, but two classes have free (Warden) or cheap (Necromancer) purges, and a third has a purge attached to an expensive skill they're probably already using (Templar).Edited by the1andonlyskwex on April 24, 2021 9:16PM4 -
Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Nice, thank you. Gave you an awesome for proving me wrong. Little surprised to see Stam DK was actually capable of pulling those numbers, but I guess the Vateshran daggers are just that strong. Still, the issue remains that with the absolute best gear, he was timing buffs and DOTs like a machine, with 0.99 LA/s, and still only barely capable of parsing 100.4k DPS even with the daggers as they are now, whereas every other Stamina build is parsing much, much higher without even breaking a sweat. In some cases others were 5-15% higher on parses where I can clearly see they are letting buffs and DOTs fall off.
DK shouldn't have to work so much harder just to still achieve less DPS than every other class. Nor should their healing be so abysmal. Nor should we give up a passive and our ultimate just to still have less sustain than everyone else. And there's absolutely no reason that GDB shouldn't just scale off maximum health like every other %HP heal in the game. DK needs a rework, or at the very least some attention. It's been left to die at this point.
Alright sure, it's a burst heal. It's just so bad that a HOT, that's also an armor buff, that's also a sustain buff, that costs a quarter of GDB, heals for more in 4s (out of a 25s duration) than this "burst heal" does when you're already half dead. (4x4.5%>0.33x50%) My feelings don't factor into it, I'm not even calling Focus busted, there's no "false impression" here, GDB is just bad. There's no defending it.BejaProphet wrote: »@Sangwyne
I’m not saying you have no point to make. But you are spinning the numbers that (while accurate) leave a false impression.
1. Something is a burst heal or heal over time. I will call GDB what it is, a burst heal. The fact that the skill hurts your feelings doesn’t change its function.
I used the same exact context you provided, a 45k HP toon. The point is that the rune will prevent you from ever even getting to execute range, while also granting sustain, armor, and costing a quarter of what GDB costs. GDB doesn't heal for squat until you are in execute range, which means you are already dead in PvP, you just don't know it yet.BejaProphet wrote: »2. You saying something scales off max health does not change its function. Yes, the Templars rune is awesome for all the reasons you state. But when you are talking about a list of burst heals, and then drop in the Templars rune without qualification, that horribly misrepresents it. You complain that GDB isn’t going to save you when you are in execute range. Well...rune DANG sure isn’t either. So you talk about rune as 100%+ max health heal and being so amazing, then you talk about GDB in terms of a specific moment and context which you find it ill suited for. You neglect to mention that rune is going to do even WORSE than GDB in that same moment.
Why not point out that in PvP, when a Templar is in execute range and casts rune, it’s going to be nothing but a 1k heal over time? That doesn’t help. So you just talk about the big % number in PvE as if the whole heal was dumped on them.BejaProphet wrote: »3. Finally, you talk about Rune in the most grandiose numbers possible, the entire bulk % in PvE, as if the duration of delivery isn’t worth noting. Then all your numbers for GDB at the end are what you get when it’s BATTLE SPIRIT nerfed in PvP. That’s not a fair comparison.
You are playing games with data, to make your case seem larger.
Make your case. If DK’s are broken, fine. You may have a good point. Just make it honestly.
Grandiose numbers? I was comparing the skills as a whole. Playing games with data? Data doesn't lie. If the numbers look bad, maybe it's because they are. So alright, here's my case: GDB sucks. Please buff it. And DK while we're at it.Edited by Sangwyne on April 24, 2021 11:46PM1 -
LightYagami✭✭✭✭✭LightYagami wrote: »ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »As the person that dug this thread out of the abyss a few months ago, I can see exactly why ZoS has not done anything with the stam DK at this point.
Every other post is about how mDK players not only want buffs, but think stamina deserves none, outside of a stam whip.
As I mentioned above, sDk and mDk pull from the same sustain tools as well as the same damage tools.
What does this mean:
1. Combustion and Battle Roar are the only methods for resources return for either resource. World in ruin cuts cost for stamina, but unless you are running exclusively bow/bow, this only impacts claws and breath, which are 2 ability out of the 10 on your bar.
2. Searing heat is the only DPS buff for either resource, and it only effects class abilities. World in ruin at least adds more damage to the mDK tool kit, also buffing relevant abilities destro staff abilities.
There is an argument for cost reduction for mDK, but please keep in mind the class currently is the poorest stamina DPS alternative at the moment, and if the flame whip is currently not enough to boost the mDK dps to standard, a poison whip will do no better for sDK.
Poison whip is a meme at this point... I wish everyone would just let it go.
Dragon Knight is and should be a DoT class, and what spammable you use should not really be important anyway IMO, because the bulk of DPS *should* come from sustaining your DoT rotation.
I personally don't have a lot of sustain issues with my Magicka DK, but that is because she is a Breton and I also run Perfected False God's... so in a way I guess I do have a sustain problem, but I found a work around.
I actually like the fact that DK does not have an execute, but I think that should be figured into the overall DPS better. For example if we had an added mechanic similar to the Z'en's Redress 5 Piece bonus as a passive. "Enemies with the Touch of Z'en take an additional 1% more damage for each damage over time effect you've placed on them, up to 5%."
Maybe we could even have the opposite of Bloodthirsty as a passive where we start at full power at 100% health and have it decrease as we get closer to 0...
There are lots of options here, but I would prefer them to be tied to sustaining our DoT rotation as opposed to adding a execute to my skill bar.
You like no execution!??????
It seems you're a PvEer right? (you mentioned that you use false god which is a typical PvE set)
Execution in PvE may not be very essential bit it's very important in PvP.
Please come and play PvP versus good players for a few months with your Magdk and share your feelings about unable to use execution.
DoT isn't good in PvP either because other players can purge your DoT meaning that you can't even let all the DoTs land on your opponents, they just basically stop your DoT.
I switched from PvE to PvP. My magdk is a PvE flawless conquerer and PvP warlord. (The toon has been on VMA and Cyrodiil leaderboards a few times). I also solo'd vet group dungeons with my magdk. I guess I have some basic understanding about magdk in PvE and PvP.
PvE and PvP are basically two different games. One of the reasons why magdk is so bad in PvP is that ZOS focused main on PvE only.
With enough effort and experience, we can still make magdks work in PvP. Sometimes I can 1 v 1 kill high ranked good PvP classes like stamsorc Grand Overlord too, but it's really difficult.
I have done both PvE and PvP on Magicka and Stamina DK. I respect your opinion, but I still disagree with you regarding an execute on the DK.
The challenge with the DK in my opinion is that the damage ramps up more slowly. I agree that this is a problem in PvP since players with purge can negate your damage, but purge is expensive, so if you make the other player use an expensive purge to remove your much cheaper DoT then you are still wining the game of attrition. Which is how I think playing a DK should be. It should be about negating damage with your mitigation and healing while keeping DoT pressure and a well timed ultimate for the kill. There are other classes with much more burst and even have executes if that is what you are in to.
My point is improvements around the DK should center around the class' fighting style and not around changing it into something else. We don't need what would essentially be a Nightblade that uses fire/poison and doesn't have cloak, we need a DK that is good at what DKs do.
What's your experience in Magdk PvP? How intense do play PvP in recent patches? Which grade? PvP leaderboard player? You said that you use flase god gears on your magdk. Honestly are you really a PvPer?
The DoT pressure PvP build workED a few patches ago before the slaughter of DoT damage.
If still you play PvP nowadays, you should have known that majority of players are using stamina 2 handed for execution. Stamina toons are much better than magicka toons in PvP (maybe except magsorcs).
With the nerf on light armor and heavy armor, mag toons are facing new challenges in PvP, especially considering magdks are melee range (a magicka toon fighting 2 handed stamina players in close proximity).Edited by LightYagami on April 25, 2021 2:02AMNo improvement on Cyrodill servers -> no ESO plus renewal.0 -
LightYagami✭✭✭✭✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »@LightYagami
I agree with you, but for the opposite reasons. The DKs performance in PvE is held back by it overperforming in PvP. I say this because people that play against the DK, and some that excel with it can't tell the difference from you class out living another player and you actually DPSing someone down. For that reason the DK has a ton of survival passives and hardly any DPS passives, and ZoS doesn't no what to do with the class because any DPS teak that would finally make the class a contender in PvE, would make the tanky class even harder to fight.
Magdks? Overperforming in PvP ?
How often do you see magdk skills on your death recap? How often do you see magdks in high MMR Battlegrounds?Edited by LightYagami on April 25, 2021 1:27AMNo improvement on Cyrodill servers -> no ESO plus renewal.3 -
LightYagami✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »LightYagami wrote: »ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »As the person that dug this thread out of the abyss a few months ago, I can see exactly why ZoS has not done anything with the stam DK at this point.
Every other post is about how mDK players not only want buffs, but think stamina deserves none, outside of a stam whip.
As I mentioned above, sDk and mDk pull from the same sustain tools as well as the same damage tools.
What does this mean:
1. Combustion and Battle Roar are the only methods for resources return for either resource. World in ruin cuts cost for stamina, but unless you are running exclusively bow/bow, this only impacts claws and breath, which are 2 ability out of the 10 on your bar.
2. Searing heat is the only DPS buff for either resource, and it only effects class abilities. World in ruin at least adds more damage to the mDK tool kit, also buffing relevant abilities destro staff abilities.
There is an argument for cost reduction for mDK, but please keep in mind the class currently is the poorest stamina DPS alternative at the moment, and if the flame whip is currently not enough to boost the mDK dps to standard, a poison whip will do no better for sDK.
Poison whip is a meme at this point... I wish everyone would just let it go.
Dragon Knight is and should be a DoT class, and what spammable you use should not really be important anyway IMO, because the bulk of DPS *should* come from sustaining your DoT rotation.
I personally don't have a lot of sustain issues with my Magicka DK, but that is because she is a Breton and I also run Perfected False God's... so in a way I guess I do have a sustain problem, but I found a work around.
I actually like the fact that DK does not have an execute, but I think that should be figured into the overall DPS better. For example if we had an added mechanic similar to the Z'en's Redress 5 Piece bonus as a passive. "Enemies with the Touch of Z'en take an additional 1% more damage for each damage over time effect you've placed on them, up to 5%."
Maybe we could even have the opposite of Bloodthirsty as a passive where we start at full power at 100% health and have it decrease as we get closer to 0...
There are lots of options here, but I would prefer them to be tied to sustaining our DoT rotation as opposed to adding a execute to my skill bar.
You like no execution!??????
It seems you're a PvEer right? (you mentioned that you use false god which is a typical PvE set)
Execution in PvE may not be very essential bit it's very important in PvP.
Please come and play PvP versus good players for a few months with your Magdk and share your feelings about unable to use execution.
DoT isn't good in PvP either because other players can purge your DoT meaning that you can't even let all the DoTs land on your opponents, they just basically stop your DoT.
I switched from PvE to PvP. My magdk is a PvE flawless conquerer and PvP warlord. (The toon has been on VMA and Cyrodiil leaderboards a few times). I also solo'd vet group dungeons with my magdk. I guess I have some basic understanding about magdk in PvE and PvP.
PvE and PvP are basically two different games. One of the reasons why magdk is so bad in PvP is that ZOS focused main on PvE only.
With enough effort and experience, we can still make magdks work in PvP. Sometimes I can 1 v 1 kill high ranked good PvP classes like stamsorc Grand Overlord too, but it's really difficult.
I have done both PvE and PvP on Magicka and Stamina DK. I respect your opinion, but I still disagree with you regarding an execute on the DK.
The challenge with the DK in my opinion is that the damage ramps up more slowly. I agree that this is a problem in PvP since players with purge can negate your damage, but purge is expensive, so if you make the other player use an expensive purge to remove your much cheaper DoT then you are still wining the game of attrition. Which is how I think playing a DK should be. It should be about negating damage with your mitigation and healing while keeping DoT pressure and a well timed ultimate for the kill. There are other classes with much more burst and even have executes if that is what you are in to.
My point is improvements around the DK should center around the class' fighting style and not around changing it into something else. We don't need what would essentially be a Nightblade that uses fire/poison and doesn't have cloak, we need a DK that is good at what DKs do.
Uh, the actual "Purge" skill may be expensive, but two classes have free (Warden) or cheap (Necromancer) purges, and a third has a purge attached to an expensive skill they're probably already using (Templar).
That's true. Any people with basic magdk PvP experience will notice that it's extremely difficult for magdks to fight those purge classes.
Don't forget Templars can AOE purge FIVE DoTs although it's more expensive (still much better than the purge from alliance war skill line which can only purge 3 DoTs.)
Wardens have the netch not only providing free purge, but also free buff, free regeneration.Edited by LightYagami on April 25, 2021 1:38AMNo improvement on Cyrodill servers -> no ESO plus renewal.3 -
WaltherCarraway✭✭✭✭✭Entrophy, Engulf, Embers, Talons, Destro 4.* purge in one click
Very balanced n deffy needs rework/buff.
Edit:
* 5GCD DoTs // effect purge by skill that takes 1GCDEdited by WaltherCarraway on April 25, 2021 1:57AMBack from my last hiatus. 2021 a new start.3 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭LightYagami wrote: »ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »@LightYagami
I agree with you, but for the opposite reasons. The DKs performance in PvE is held back by it overperforming in PvP. I say this because people that play against the DK, and some that excel with it can't tell the difference from you class out living another player and you actually DPSing someone down. For that reason the DK has a ton of survival passives and hardly any DPS passives, and ZoS doesn't no what to do with the class because any DPS teak that would finally make the class a contender in PvE, would make the tanky class even harder to fight.
Magdks? Overperforming in PvP ?
How often do you see magdk skills on your death recap? How often do you see magdks in high MMR Battlegrounds?
It depends on the build, but I've had an average amount on both accounts. But they wouldn't win by bursting down because that is not how the DK is built, they win by basically out surviving the enemy, which provides very little benefit in PvE outside of tanking and solo arenas, and that is my point.Edited by ke.sardenb14_ESO on April 26, 2021 3:28AM0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I have over a year of /played time on my DK. During that time of done mostly with PVE tanking with smaller PVP stuff, such as BGS and IC, thrown in.
First and foremost, DK has been feeling less and less important over time. It seems like more PVE groups want to use a different tank class that offers better group buffs and that is sort of interesting to me. Begrudgingly, a PVE group will bring along a DK for the unique flame damage buff offered from Engulfing Flames. This has gone from being a tank role to more of a DPS role since it is somewhat involved to get the full 10% buff offered by the skill. Begrudgingly, a PVE group will bring along a DK for the unique stagger buff. This is not a fun skill to use. I'm glad that my character hasn't become totally obsolete in terms of the buffs that it can use to support a group, but this particular skill pretty much needs to be cast every 4th global cooldown in order to keep up without too much issue. And if the stagger does fall off, it is extremely punishing to put back up in terms of global cooldown use. This is yet to even mention that the first cast of the skill totally unnecessarily drops block.
Nothing else is terribly important from a PVE perspective. Igneous Shield is nice, I guess, but is more of a skill to use when there isn't much else to do. I rarely feel like team mates actually need the shield. Minor Brutality would be fine, but the meta isn't usually stamina based so it is not a super relevant passive.
I don't even feel like DKs are the best at holding their ground even. There is Iron Skin and Burning Heart, but some Sunspire groups showed me how much that matters when someone can just use a nightblade skill to mitigate damage. Or modern content shows me that people will be getting guard anyhow if they really need it. Or there is even the Bani's set if survivability is hypothetically that bad for some reason.
This is all to say that DK is like a gimmick and one trick pony now.
In PVP the major issue I have found to be is sustain and lack of interesting powerful abilities. Sustain is just garbage. Helping hands is just not enough of a passive boost and requires active skill use to grant. Battle Roar is nice, but shoe horns DKs into certain ways of playing. If you see an opening to use your ultimate ability, then that can end up *** you on sustain later. If you want to use a potion for a passive effect like immovability, then that can also *** you on sustain later. DK had to constantly be alternating between using an ultimate and using a potion for sustain to be just okay. By playing in such a way, there ends up being a lot of missed opportunities and "guess I shouldn't have used my ulitmate or potion" moments. It's wrong to gate sustain behind ultimate use. Cut that *** out.
Secondly is the problem DKs having of being a stand their ground class. Without very specific building, DKs will melt against a few other people. And even with that specific building DKs will simply get worn down by players of equal skill. They do not have any way to escape a scenario and recoup the way that Sorcerer or Nightblade get too. DK's speed ability is gated behind a *** skill and otherwise one has to build for it. DKs also just aren't as good at standing their ground as Templars or especially Necros. Templars get a purge and pretty substantial heal compared to Dragon Blood (which is a total joke). Necros ultimate ability so far outpaces the DK molten armor that is just makes molten armor look like a total joke in comparison. Big difference in power level.
Finally, I don't mind that some classes get to purge DK abilities since some counterplay is okay to exist, but what exactly does DK counter? Not much. The most effective way I've found of fighting in PVP with my DK is to just try and burst people down with proc sets. That speaks more to the power of the sets rather than power of the class.
Also as a side note, since DK are the classic tanking option, it has always been completely ass to switch in between PVE and PVP content. It's always a pain that is costly. Attributes switch, Champion point switch, and now even skill switch if I want to use the typically used in PVP stam version of Fiery Breath. It *** hurts to go in between types of contents. This causes me to try and only play in no CP. I use Pierce Armor instead of the stam breath morph. That morph would probably be more powerful... I just bite the bullet on attributes...Don't tank
"In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel7 -
Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
✭Personofsecrets wrote: »I have over a year of /played time on my DK. During that time of done mostly with PVE tanking with smaller PVP stuff, such as BGS and IC, thrown in.
First and foremost, DK has been feeling less and less important over time. It seems like more PVE groups want to use a different tank class that offers better group buffs and that is sort of interesting to me.
This is all to say that DK is like a gimmick and one trick pony now.
You should comment more around here, your analysis was spot-on. Pretty much hit the nail right on the head; DK has fallen off a cliff. When the class consistently pulls the least damage and healing in the game, there's really only one role you can take it on, which leads to people thinking it's durable because they keep seeing it on tank. No. That's the only role it can find room on because it's the only role where it can somewhat conceal its multiple glaring weaknesses. DK is now the only class without a heal scaling off max health; there's no reason GDB needs to be the only %missing HP heal in the game.
We have more votes for the worst sustain in the game than every other class combined:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1
We have more votes for the worst healing in the game than every other class combined:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/571267/what-is-the-worst-healing-class-2021
We have the worst damage in the game. It's so bad, Alcast lists DK under the worst damage category in his tier list, twice, when there's only 3 spots in the entire category! The category might as well just say "DK lmao".
https://alcasthq.com/eso-dps-tier-list-best-damage-classes/ (updated for Blackwood)
We are tied with Templar for the worst PvP class in the game. Except Templar just got buffed.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/568150/pvp-tierlist-for-flames-of-ambition/p1
(Sniker's tier list, dozens of experienced PvP players come together each patch to form their lists)
We are the worst solo class in the game, likely due to the worst healing, sustain and damage.
youtube.com/watch?v=C_AcbWZZtwc (luckyghost, 2nd most popular ESO streamer behind Alcast), starting at 1:41
https://www.hacktheminotaur.com/eso-guides/best-solo-class-in-eso-2020 (91k subs)
[snip]
[Edited to remove Inappropriate Content and Profanity]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 26, 2021 1:03PM6 -
LightYagami✭✭✭✭✭.ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »LightYagami wrote: »ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »@LightYagami
I agree with you, but for the opposite reasons. The DKs performance in PvE is held back by it overperforming in PvP. I say this because people that play against the DK, and some that excel with it can't tell the difference from you class out living another player and you actually DPSing someone down. For that reason the DK has a ton of survival passives and hardly any DPS passives, and ZoS doesn't no what to do with the class because any DPS teak that would finally make the class a contender in PvE, would make the tanky class even harder to fight.
Magdks? Overperforming in PvP ?
How often do you see magdk skills on your death recap? How often do you see magdks in high MMR Battlegrounds?
It depends on the build, but I've had an average amount on both accounts. But they wouldn't win by bursting down because that is not how the DK is built, they win by basically out surviving the enemy, which provides very little benefit in PvE outside of tanking and solo arenas, and that is my point.
Let's back to objective numbers...
How often do you see magdk skills on your death recap? How often do you see magdks in high MMR Battlegrounds?
I play magdks often. My flawless conquerer magdk grand warlord had been on VMA leaderboard and Cyrodiil leaderboard a few times. I can 1 v x against stamina toons, sometimes 1v1 won five star stamsorc.
I guess I have BASIC knowledge about magdk. I tried both long fight and burst builds and I can handled both well, but this class is still one one the weakest in PvP. (I also play other classes sometimes) That's my point.Edited by LightYagami on April 26, 2021 11:45AMNo improvement on Cyrodill servers -> no ESO plus renewal.1 -
LightYagami✭✭✭✭✭If there are players thinking that magdks are overperforming or overpowered in PvP, can you please answer yourself the following question honestly:
IF, just if, if the game allows only one toon per account, will you pick magdk as the only toon in PvP?No improvement on Cyrodill servers -> no ESO plus renewal.1 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LightYagami wrote: »LightYagami wrote: »ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »As the person that dug this thread out of the abyss a few months ago, I can see exactly why ZoS has not done anything with the stam DK at this point.
Every other post is about how mDK players not only want buffs, but think stamina deserves none, outside of a stam whip.
As I mentioned above, sDk and mDk pull from the same sustain tools as well as the same damage tools.
What does this mean:
1. Combustion and Battle Roar are the only methods for resources return for either resource. World in ruin cuts cost for stamina, but unless you are running exclusively bow/bow, this only impacts claws and breath, which are 2 ability out of the 10 on your bar.
2. Searing heat is the only DPS buff for either resource, and it only effects class abilities. World in ruin at least adds more damage to the mDK tool kit, also buffing relevant abilities destro staff abilities.
There is an argument for cost reduction for mDK, but please keep in mind the class currently is the poorest stamina DPS alternative at the moment, and if the flame whip is currently not enough to boost the mDK dps to standard, a poison whip will do no better for sDK.
Poison whip is a meme at this point... I wish everyone would just let it go.
Dragon Knight is and should be a DoT class, and what spammable you use should not really be important anyway IMO, because the bulk of DPS *should* come from sustaining your DoT rotation.
I personally don't have a lot of sustain issues with my Magicka DK, but that is because she is a Breton and I also run Perfected False God's... so in a way I guess I do have a sustain problem, but I found a work around.
I actually like the fact that DK does not have an execute, but I think that should be figured into the overall DPS better. For example if we had an added mechanic similar to the Z'en's Redress 5 Piece bonus as a passive. "Enemies with the Touch of Z'en take an additional 1% more damage for each damage over time effect you've placed on them, up to 5%."
Maybe we could even have the opposite of Bloodthirsty as a passive where we start at full power at 100% health and have it decrease as we get closer to 0...
There are lots of options here, but I would prefer them to be tied to sustaining our DoT rotation as opposed to adding a execute to my skill bar.
You like no execution!??????
It seems you're a PvEer right? (you mentioned that you use false god which is a typical PvE set)
Execution in PvE may not be very essential bit it's very important in PvP.
Please come and play PvP versus good players for a few months with your Magdk and share your feelings about unable to use execution.
DoT isn't good in PvP either because other players can purge your DoT meaning that you can't even let all the DoTs land on your opponents, they just basically stop your DoT.
I switched from PvE to PvP. My magdk is a PvE flawless conquerer and PvP warlord. (The toon has been on VMA and Cyrodiil leaderboards a few times). I also solo'd vet group dungeons with my magdk. I guess I have some basic understanding about magdk in PvE and PvP.
PvE and PvP are basically two different games. One of the reasons why magdk is so bad in PvP is that ZOS focused main on PvE only.
With enough effort and experience, we can still make magdks work in PvP. Sometimes I can 1 v 1 kill high ranked good PvP classes like stamsorc Grand Overlord too, but it's really difficult.
I have done both PvE and PvP on Magicka and Stamina DK. I respect your opinion, but I still disagree with you regarding an execute on the DK.
The challenge with the DK in my opinion is that the damage ramps up more slowly. I agree that this is a problem in PvP since players with purge can negate your damage, but purge is expensive, so if you make the other player use an expensive purge to remove your much cheaper DoT then you are still wining the game of attrition. Which is how I think playing a DK should be. It should be about negating damage with your mitigation and healing while keeping DoT pressure and a well timed ultimate for the kill. There are other classes with much more burst and even have executes if that is what you are in to.
My point is improvements around the DK should center around the class' fighting style and not around changing it into something else. We don't need what would essentially be a Nightblade that uses fire/poison and doesn't have cloak, we need a DK that is good at what DKs do.
What's your experience in Magdk PvP? How intense do play PvP in recent patches? Which grade? PvP leaderboard player? You said that you use flase god gears on your magdk. Honestly are you really a PvPer?
The DoT pressure PvP build workED a few patches ago before the slaughter of DoT damage.
If still you play PvP nowadays, you should have known that majority of players are using stamina 2 handed for execution. Stamina toons are much better than magicka toons in PvP (maybe except magsorcs).
With the nerf on light armor and heavy armor, mag toons are facing new challenges in PvP, especially considering magdks are melee range (a magicka toon fighting 2 handed stamina players in close proximity).
[snip] We are talking about the overall strategy of how a DK should fight, not specific numbers etc. I have played the game since beta, have lots of achievements, and have an opinion about Dragon Knight. My opinion is just as valuable as yours and I couldn't care less about your achievements.
Secondly, why couldn't I use Perfected False Gods in PvP (other than when proc sets are disabled)? It gives a lot of cost reduction and sustain, and would be fine depending on how you build for it, although I never said I used Perfected False Gods in PvP (I play both), you just assumed that for some reason.
I am in agreement with you on your other points, but I still don't think the answer should be giving DK a class execute. I would rather the combat team fix DoT damage on a DK so that a DoT pressure build works better.
[Edited to remove Inappropriate Content]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 26, 2021 2:17PMPlaying since beta...1 -
LightYagami✭✭✭✭✭LightYagami wrote: »LightYagami wrote: »ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »As the person that dug this thread out of the abyss a few months ago, I can see exactly why ZoS has not done anything with the stam DK at this point.
Every other post is about how mDK players not only want buffs, but think stamina deserves none, outside of a stam whip.
As I mentioned above, sDk and mDk pull from the same sustain tools as well as the same damage tools.
What does this mean:
1. Combustion and Battle Roar are the only methods for resources return for either resource. World in ruin cuts cost for stamina, but unless you are running exclusively bow/bow, this only impacts claws and breath, which are 2 ability out of the 10 on your bar.
2. Searing heat is the only DPS buff for either resource, and it only effects class abilities. World in ruin at least adds more damage to the mDK tool kit, also buffing relevant abilities destro staff abilities.
There is an argument for cost reduction for mDK, but please keep in mind the class currently is the poorest stamina DPS alternative at the moment, and if the flame whip is currently not enough to boost the mDK dps to standard, a poison whip will do no better for sDK.
Poison whip is a meme at this point... I wish everyone would just let it go.
Dragon Knight is and should be a DoT class, and what spammable you use should not really be important anyway IMO, because the bulk of DPS *should* come from sustaining your DoT rotation.
I personally don't have a lot of sustain issues with my Magicka DK, but that is because she is a Breton and I also run Perfected False God's... so in a way I guess I do have a sustain problem, but I found a work around.
I actually like the fact that DK does not have an execute, but I think that should be figured into the overall DPS better. For example if we had an added mechanic similar to the Z'en's Redress 5 Piece bonus as a passive. "Enemies with the Touch of Z'en take an additional 1% more damage for each damage over time effect you've placed on them, up to 5%."
Maybe we could even have the opposite of Bloodthirsty as a passive where we start at full power at 100% health and have it decrease as we get closer to 0...
There are lots of options here, but I would prefer them to be tied to sustaining our DoT rotation as opposed to adding a execute to my skill bar.
You like no execution!??????
It seems you're a PvEer right? (you mentioned that you use false god which is a typical PvE set)
Execution in PvE may not be very essential bit it's very important in PvP.
Please come and play PvP versus good players for a few months with your Magdk and share your feelings about unable to use execution.
DoT isn't good in PvP either because other players can purge your DoT meaning that you can't even let all the DoTs land on your opponents, they just basically stop your DoT.
I switched from PvE to PvP. My magdk is a PvE flawless conquerer and PvP warlord. (The toon has been on VMA and Cyrodiil leaderboards a few times). I also solo'd vet group dungeons with my magdk. I guess I have some basic understanding about magdk in PvE and PvP.
PvE and PvP are basically two different games. One of the reasons why magdk is so bad in PvP is that ZOS focused main on PvE only.
With enough effort and experience, we can still make magdks work in PvP. Sometimes I can 1 v 1 kill high ranked good PvP classes like stamsorc Grand Overlord too, but it's really difficult.
I have done both PvE and PvP on Magicka and Stamina DK. I respect your opinion, but I still disagree with you regarding an execute on the DK.
The challenge with the DK in my opinion is that the damage ramps up more slowly. I agree that this is a problem in PvP since players with purge can negate your damage, but purge is expensive, so if you make the other player use an expensive purge to remove your much cheaper DoT then you are still wining the game of attrition. Which is how I think playing a DK should be. It should be about negating damage with your mitigation and healing while keeping DoT pressure and a well timed ultimate for the kill. There are other classes with much more burst and even have executes if that is what you are in to.
My point is improvements around the DK should center around the class' fighting style and not around changing it into something else. We don't need what would essentially be a Nightblade that uses fire/poison and doesn't have cloak, we need a DK that is good at what DKs do.
What's your experience in Magdk PvP? How intense do play PvP in recent patches? Which grade? PvP leaderboard player? You said that you use flase god gears on your magdk. Honestly are you really a PvPer?
The DoT pressure PvP build workED a few patches ago before the slaughter of DoT damage.
If still you play PvP nowadays, you should have known that majority of players are using stamina 2 handed for execution. Stamina toons are much better than magicka toons in PvP (maybe except magsorcs).
With the nerf on light armor and heavy armor, mag toons are facing new challenges in PvP, especially considering magdks are melee range (a magicka toon fighting 2 handed stamina players in close proximity).
So first of all, I am not going to lay my epeen on the table because it is irreverent to the discussion. We are talking about the overall strategy of how a DK should fight, not specific numbers etc. I have played the game since beta, have lots of achievements, and have an opinion about Dragon Knight. My opinion is just as valuable as yours and I couldn't care less about your achievements.
Secondly, why couldn't I use Perfected False Gods in PvP (other than when proc sets are disabled)? It gives a lot of cost reduction and sustain, and would be fine depending on how you build for it, although I never said I used Perfected False Gods in PvP (I play both), you just assumed that for some reason.
I am in agreement with you on your other points, but I still don't think the answer should be giving DK a class execute. I would rather the combat team fix DoT damage on a DK so that a DoT pressure build works better.
"irrelevant"? no - it's relevant about one's BASIC knowledge about magdk.
Simply playing the game for a long time doesn't equivalent to having basic understanding about a class.
As a multiple-time leaderboard flawless conqueror at VMA and Cyrodiil 1 v x magdk grand warlord, I am sure I have BASIC understanding about magdk.
Please continue to use your PERFECTED false god in PvP as you wish. can't wait to see you in PvP. That's all.
No improvement on Cyrodill servers -> no ESO plus renewal.0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »I have over a year of /played time on my DK. During that time of done mostly with PVE tanking with smaller PVP stuff, such as BGS and IC, thrown in.
First and foremost, DK has been feeling less and less important over time. It seems like more PVE groups want to use a different tank class that offers better group buffs and that is sort of interesting to me.
This is all to say that DK is like a gimmick and one trick pony now.
You should comment more around here, your analysis was spot-on. Pretty much hit the nail right on the head; DK has fallen off a cliff. When the class consistently pulls the least damage and healing in the game, there's really only one role you can take it on, which leads to people thinking it's durable because they keep seeing it on tank. No. That's the only role it can find room on because it's the only role where it can somewhat conceal its multiple glaring weaknesses. DK is now the only class without a heal scaling off max health; there's no reason GDB needs to be the only %missing HP heal in the game.
We have more votes for the worst sustain in the game than every other class combined:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1
We have more votes for the worst healing in the game than every other class combined:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/571267/what-is-the-worst-healing-class-2021
We have the worst damage in the game. It's so bad, Alcast lists DK under the worst damage category in his tier list, twice, when there's only 3 spots in the entire category! The category might as well just say "DK lmao".
https://alcasthq.com/eso-dps-tier-list-best-damage-classes/ (updated for Blackwood)
We are tied with Templar for the worst PvP class in the game. Except Templar just got buffed.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/568150/pvp-tierlist-for-flames-of-ambition/p1
(Sniker's tier list, dozens of experienced PvP players come together each patch to form their lists)
We are the worst solo class in the game, likely due to the worst healing, sustain and damage.
youtube.com/watch?v=C_AcbWZZtwc (luckyghost, 2nd most popular ESO streamer behind Alcast), starting at 1:41
https://www.hacktheminotaur.com/eso-guides/best-solo-class-in-eso-2020 (91k subs)
[snip]
[Edited to remove Inappropriate Content and Profanity]
The thing I could add is just about skill use. DK actually used to feel okay with the skills that I would slot. I think that cinderstorm used to give dodge chance. Now that skill is just really over costed. Standard used to cost much less and that is pertinent with regards to how DKs get resources. Leap still feels good, but some functionality has definitely been taken away. Chains used to be alot more versatile with regards to where someone could be pulled from too. Many more "can't do that" type of errors than their used to be with leap and chains. Wings used to actually make DK feel powerful, but of course a skill that so easily counters reckless play from not paying attention opponents can't be allowed, right (rhetorical)? The dots are nice, but both the new classes have no issue cleansing multiple effects. Talons was changed at some point to prevent people from getting locked in place without an ability to regular attacks as badly - that used to feel strong to do that.
The only DK "gotcha" skill that is left is probably Fossilize and how long until that is deemed too unfun? DK probably is the class to use the least number of it's class skills.Don't tank
"In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LightYagami wrote: »LightYagami wrote: »LightYagami wrote: »ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »As the person that dug this thread out of the abyss a few months ago, I can see exactly why ZoS has not done anything with the stam DK at this point.
Every other post is about how mDK players not only want buffs, but think stamina deserves none, outside of a stam whip.
As I mentioned above, sDk and mDk pull from the same sustain tools as well as the same damage tools.
What does this mean:
1. Combustion and Battle Roar are the only methods for resources return for either resource. World in ruin cuts cost for stamina, but unless you are running exclusively bow/bow, this only impacts claws and breath, which are 2 ability out of the 10 on your bar.
2. Searing heat is the only DPS buff for either resource, and it only effects class abilities. World in ruin at least adds more damage to the mDK tool kit, also buffing relevant abilities destro staff abilities.
There is an argument for cost reduction for mDK, but please keep in mind the class currently is the poorest stamina DPS alternative at the moment, and if the flame whip is currently not enough to boost the mDK dps to standard, a poison whip will do no better for sDK.
Poison whip is a meme at this point... I wish everyone would just let it go.
Dragon Knight is and should be a DoT class, and what spammable you use should not really be important anyway IMO, because the bulk of DPS *should* come from sustaining your DoT rotation.
I personally don't have a lot of sustain issues with my Magicka DK, but that is because she is a Breton and I also run Perfected False God's... so in a way I guess I do have a sustain problem, but I found a work around.
I actually like the fact that DK does not have an execute, but I think that should be figured into the overall DPS better. For example if we had an added mechanic similar to the Z'en's Redress 5 Piece bonus as a passive. "Enemies with the Touch of Z'en take an additional 1% more damage for each damage over time effect you've placed on them, up to 5%."
Maybe we could even have the opposite of Bloodthirsty as a passive where we start at full power at 100% health and have it decrease as we get closer to 0...
There are lots of options here, but I would prefer them to be tied to sustaining our DoT rotation as opposed to adding a execute to my skill bar.
You like no execution!??????
It seems you're a PvEer right? (you mentioned that you use false god which is a typical PvE set)
Execution in PvE may not be very essential bit it's very important in PvP.
Please come and play PvP versus good players for a few months with your Magdk and share your feelings about unable to use execution.
DoT isn't good in PvP either because other players can purge your DoT meaning that you can't even let all the DoTs land on your opponents, they just basically stop your DoT.
I switched from PvE to PvP. My magdk is a PvE flawless conquerer and PvP warlord. (The toon has been on VMA and Cyrodiil leaderboards a few times). I also solo'd vet group dungeons with my magdk. I guess I have some basic understanding about magdk in PvE and PvP.
PvE and PvP are basically two different games. One of the reasons why magdk is so bad in PvP is that ZOS focused main on PvE only.
With enough effort and experience, we can still make magdks work in PvP. Sometimes I can 1 v 1 kill high ranked good PvP classes like stamsorc Grand Overlord too, but it's really difficult.
I have done both PvE and PvP on Magicka and Stamina DK. I respect your opinion, but I still disagree with you regarding an execute on the DK.
The challenge with the DK in my opinion is that the damage ramps up more slowly. I agree that this is a problem in PvP since players with purge can negate your damage, but purge is expensive, so if you make the other player use an expensive purge to remove your much cheaper DoT then you are still wining the game of attrition. Which is how I think playing a DK should be. It should be about negating damage with your mitigation and healing while keeping DoT pressure and a well timed ultimate for the kill. There are other classes with much more burst and even have executes if that is what you are in to.
My point is improvements around the DK should center around the class' fighting style and not around changing it into something else. We don't need what would essentially be a Nightblade that uses fire/poison and doesn't have cloak, we need a DK that is good at what DKs do.
What's your experience in Magdk PvP? How intense do play PvP in recent patches? Which grade? PvP leaderboard player? You said that you use flase god gears on your magdk. Honestly are you really a PvPer?
The DoT pressure PvP build workED a few patches ago before the slaughter of DoT damage.
If still you play PvP nowadays, you should have known that majority of players are using stamina 2 handed for execution. Stamina toons are much better than magicka toons in PvP (maybe except magsorcs).
With the nerf on light armor and heavy armor, mag toons are facing new challenges in PvP, especially considering magdks are melee range (a magicka toon fighting 2 handed stamina players in close proximity).
So first of all, I am not going to lay my epeen on the table because it is irreverent to the discussion. We are talking about the overall strategy of how a DK should fight, not specific numbers etc. I have played the game since beta, have lots of achievements, and have an opinion about Dragon Knight. My opinion is just as valuable as yours and I couldn't care less about your achievements.
Secondly, why couldn't I use Perfected False Gods in PvP (other than when proc sets are disabled)? It gives a lot of cost reduction and sustain, and would be fine depending on how you build for it, although I never said I used Perfected False Gods in PvP (I play both), you just assumed that for some reason.
I am in agreement with you on your other points, but I still don't think the answer should be giving DK a class execute. I would rather the combat team fix DoT damage on a DK so that a DoT pressure build works better.
"irrelevant"? no - it's relevant about one's BASIC knowledge about magdk.
Simply playing the game for a long time doesn't equivalent to having basic understanding about a class.
As a multiple-time leaderboard flawless conqueror at VMA and Cyrodiil 1 v x magdk grand warlord, I am sure I have BASIC understanding about magdk.
Please continue to use your PERFECTED false god in PvP as you wish. can't wait to see you in PvP. That's all.
Can mag DK even 1 v X now with the change to mist?Don't tank
"In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel0 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LightYagami wrote: »LightYagami wrote: »LightYagami wrote: »ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »As the person that dug this thread out of the abyss a few months ago, I can see exactly why ZoS has not done anything with the stam DK at this point.
Every other post is about how mDK players not only want buffs, but think stamina deserves none, outside of a stam whip.
As I mentioned above, sDk and mDk pull from the same sustain tools as well as the same damage tools.
What does this mean:
1. Combustion and Battle Roar are the only methods for resources return for either resource. World in ruin cuts cost for stamina, but unless you are running exclusively bow/bow, this only impacts claws and breath, which are 2 ability out of the 10 on your bar.
2. Searing heat is the only DPS buff for either resource, and it only effects class abilities. World in ruin at least adds more damage to the mDK tool kit, also buffing relevant abilities destro staff abilities.
There is an argument for cost reduction for mDK, but please keep in mind the class currently is the poorest stamina DPS alternative at the moment, and if the flame whip is currently not enough to boost the mDK dps to standard, a poison whip will do no better for sDK.
Poison whip is a meme at this point... I wish everyone would just let it go.
Dragon Knight is and should be a DoT class, and what spammable you use should not really be important anyway IMO, because the bulk of DPS *should* come from sustaining your DoT rotation.
I personally don't have a lot of sustain issues with my Magicka DK, but that is because she is a Breton and I also run Perfected False God's... so in a way I guess I do have a sustain problem, but I found a work around.
I actually like the fact that DK does not have an execute, but I think that should be figured into the overall DPS better. For example if we had an added mechanic similar to the Z'en's Redress 5 Piece bonus as a passive. "Enemies with the Touch of Z'en take an additional 1% more damage for each damage over time effect you've placed on them, up to 5%."
Maybe we could even have the opposite of Bloodthirsty as a passive where we start at full power at 100% health and have it decrease as we get closer to 0...
There are lots of options here, but I would prefer them to be tied to sustaining our DoT rotation as opposed to adding a execute to my skill bar.
You like no execution!??????
It seems you're a PvEer right? (you mentioned that you use false god which is a typical PvE set)
Execution in PvE may not be very essential bit it's very important in PvP.
Please come and play PvP versus good players for a few months with your Magdk and share your feelings about unable to use execution.
DoT isn't good in PvP either because other players can purge your DoT meaning that you can't even let all the DoTs land on your opponents, they just basically stop your DoT.
I switched from PvE to PvP. My magdk is a PvE flawless conquerer and PvP warlord. (The toon has been on VMA and Cyrodiil leaderboards a few times). I also solo'd vet group dungeons with my magdk. I guess I have some basic understanding about magdk in PvE and PvP.
PvE and PvP are basically two different games. One of the reasons why magdk is so bad in PvP is that ZOS focused main on PvE only.
With enough effort and experience, we can still make magdks work in PvP. Sometimes I can 1 v 1 kill high ranked good PvP classes like stamsorc Grand Overlord too, but it's really difficult.
I have done both PvE and PvP on Magicka and Stamina DK. I respect your opinion, but I still disagree with you regarding an execute on the DK.
The challenge with the DK in my opinion is that the damage ramps up more slowly. I agree that this is a problem in PvP since players with purge can negate your damage, but purge is expensive, so if you make the other player use an expensive purge to remove your much cheaper DoT then you are still wining the game of attrition. Which is how I think playing a DK should be. It should be about negating damage with your mitigation and healing while keeping DoT pressure and a well timed ultimate for the kill. There are other classes with much more burst and even have executes if that is what you are in to.
My point is improvements around the DK should center around the class' fighting style and not around changing it into something else. We don't need what would essentially be a Nightblade that uses fire/poison and doesn't have cloak, we need a DK that is good at what DKs do.
What's your experience in Magdk PvP? How intense do play PvP in recent patches? Which grade? PvP leaderboard player? You said that you use flase god gears on your magdk. Honestly are you really a PvPer?
The DoT pressure PvP build workED a few patches ago before the slaughter of DoT damage.
If still you play PvP nowadays, you should have known that majority of players are using stamina 2 handed for execution. Stamina toons are much better than magicka toons in PvP (maybe except magsorcs).
With the nerf on light armor and heavy armor, mag toons are facing new challenges in PvP, especially considering magdks are melee range (a magicka toon fighting 2 handed stamina players in close proximity).
So first of all, I am not going to lay my epeen on the table because it is irreverent to the discussion. We are talking about the overall strategy of how a DK should fight, not specific numbers etc. I have played the game since beta, have lots of achievements, and have an opinion about Dragon Knight. My opinion is just as valuable as yours and I couldn't care less about your achievements.
Secondly, why couldn't I use Perfected False Gods in PvP (other than when proc sets are disabled)? It gives a lot of cost reduction and sustain, and would be fine depending on how you build for it, although I never said I used Perfected False Gods in PvP (I play both), you just assumed that for some reason.
I am in agreement with you on your other points, but I still don't think the answer should be giving DK a class execute. I would rather the combat team fix DoT damage on a DK so that a DoT pressure build works better.
"irrelevant"? no - it's relevant about one's BASIC knowledge about magdk.
Simply playing the game for a long time doesn't equivalent to having basic understanding about a class.
As a multiple-time leaderboard flawless conqueror at VMA and Cyrodiil 1 v x magdk grand warlord, I am sure I have BASIC understanding about magdk.
Please continue to use your PERFECTED false god in PvP as you wish. can't wait to see you in PvP. That's all.
I have got on the leader board multiple times with my Magicka DK as well... it's old content. No big deal. There are a lot harder things you could do in PvE that would make me give you more respect than VMA.
Grand Warlord just takes time and as you said "Simply playing the game for a long time doesn't equivalent to having basic understanding about a class." I would argue that it isn't a representation of skill either. Just that you spent time gaining AP.
I will give you the fact that you are likely a better PvPer than me, but again that doesn't mean that your opinion is any more valid than mine.
Playing since beta...2 -
LightYagami✭✭✭✭✭LightYagami wrote: »LightYagami wrote: »LightYagami wrote: »ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »As the person that dug this thread out of the abyss a few months ago, I can see exactly why ZoS has not done anything with the stam DK at this point.
Every other post is about how mDK players not only want buffs, but think stamina deserves none, outside of a stam whip.
As I mentioned above, sDk and mDk pull from the same sustain tools as well as the same damage tools.
What does this mean:
1. Combustion and Battle Roar are the only methods for resources return for either resource. World in ruin cuts cost for stamina, but unless you are running exclusively bow/bow, this only impacts claws and breath, which are 2 ability out of the 10 on your bar.
2. Searing heat is the only DPS buff for either resource, and it only effects class abilities. World in ruin at least adds more damage to the mDK tool kit, also buffing relevant abilities destro staff abilities.
There is an argument for cost reduction for mDK, but please keep in mind the class currently is the poorest stamina DPS alternative at the moment, and if the flame whip is currently not enough to boost the mDK dps to standard, a poison whip will do no better for sDK.
Poison whip is a meme at this point... I wish everyone would just let it go.
Dragon Knight is and should be a DoT class, and what spammable you use should not really be important anyway IMO, because the bulk of DPS *should* come from sustaining your DoT rotation.
I personally don't have a lot of sustain issues with my Magicka DK, but that is because she is a Breton and I also run Perfected False God's... so in a way I guess I do have a sustain problem, but I found a work around.
I actually like the fact that DK does not have an execute, but I think that should be figured into the overall DPS better. For example if we had an added mechanic similar to the Z'en's Redress 5 Piece bonus as a passive. "Enemies with the Touch of Z'en take an additional 1% more damage for each damage over time effect you've placed on them, up to 5%."
Maybe we could even have the opposite of Bloodthirsty as a passive where we start at full power at 100% health and have it decrease as we get closer to 0...
There are lots of options here, but I would prefer them to be tied to sustaining our DoT rotation as opposed to adding a execute to my skill bar.
You like no execution!??????
It seems you're a PvEer right? (you mentioned that you use false god which is a typical PvE set)
Execution in PvE may not be very essential bit it's very important in PvP.
Please come and play PvP versus good players for a few months with your Magdk and share your feelings about unable to use execution.
DoT isn't good in PvP either because other players can purge your DoT meaning that you can't even let all the DoTs land on your opponents, they just basically stop your DoT.
I switched from PvE to PvP. My magdk is a PvE flawless conquerer and PvP warlord. (The toon has been on VMA and Cyrodiil leaderboards a few times). I also solo'd vet group dungeons with my magdk. I guess I have some basic understanding about magdk in PvE and PvP.
PvE and PvP are basically two different games. One of the reasons why magdk is so bad in PvP is that ZOS focused main on PvE only.
With enough effort and experience, we can still make magdks work in PvP. Sometimes I can 1 v 1 kill high ranked good PvP classes like stamsorc Grand Overlord too, but it's really difficult.
I have done both PvE and PvP on Magicka and Stamina DK. I respect your opinion, but I still disagree with you regarding an execute on the DK.
The challenge with the DK in my opinion is that the damage ramps up more slowly. I agree that this is a problem in PvP since players with purge can negate your damage, but purge is expensive, so if you make the other player use an expensive purge to remove your much cheaper DoT then you are still wining the game of attrition. Which is how I think playing a DK should be. It should be about negating damage with your mitigation and healing while keeping DoT pressure and a well timed ultimate for the kill. There are other classes with much more burst and even have executes if that is what you are in to.
My point is improvements around the DK should center around the class' fighting style and not around changing it into something else. We don't need what would essentially be a Nightblade that uses fire/poison and doesn't have cloak, we need a DK that is good at what DKs do.
What's your experience in Magdk PvP? How intense do play PvP in recent patches? Which grade? PvP leaderboard player? You said that you use flase god gears on your magdk. Honestly are you really a PvPer?
The DoT pressure PvP build workED a few patches ago before the slaughter of DoT damage.
If still you play PvP nowadays, you should have known that majority of players are using stamina 2 handed for execution. Stamina toons are much better than magicka toons in PvP (maybe except magsorcs).
With the nerf on light armor and heavy armor, mag toons are facing new challenges in PvP, especially considering magdks are melee range (a magicka toon fighting 2 handed stamina players in close proximity).
So first of all, I am not going to lay my epeen on the table because it is irreverent to the discussion. We are talking about the overall strategy of how a DK should fight, not specific numbers etc. I have played the game since beta, have lots of achievements, and have an opinion about Dragon Knight. My opinion is just as valuable as yours and I couldn't care less about your achievements.
Secondly, why couldn't I use Perfected False Gods in PvP (other than when proc sets are disabled)? It gives a lot of cost reduction and sustain, and would be fine depending on how you build for it, although I never said I used Perfected False Gods in PvP (I play both), you just assumed that for some reason.
I am in agreement with you on your other points, but I still don't think the answer should be giving DK a class execute. I would rather the combat team fix DoT damage on a DK so that a DoT pressure build works better.
"irrelevant"? no - it's relevant about one's BASIC knowledge about magdk.
Simply playing the game for a long time doesn't equivalent to having basic understanding about a class.
As a multiple-time leaderboard flawless conqueror at VMA and Cyrodiil 1 v x magdk grand warlord, I am sure I have BASIC understanding about magdk.
Please continue to use your PERFECTED false god in PvP as you wish. can't wait to see you in PvP. That's all.
I have got on the leader board multiple times with my Magicka DK as well... it's old content. No big deal. There are a lot harder things you could do in PvE that would make me give you more respect than VMA.
Grand Warlord just takes time and as you said "Simply playing the game for a long time doesn't equivalent to having basic understanding about a class." I would argue that it isn't a representation of skill either. Just that you spent time gaining AP.
I will give you the fact that you are likely a better PvPer than me, but again that doesn't mean that your opinion is any more valid than mine.
Just keep rolling your PERFECTED flase god gears in PvP, PLEASE.No improvement on Cyrodill servers -> no ESO plus renewal.0 -
LightYagami✭✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »LightYagami wrote: »LightYagami wrote: »LightYagami wrote: »ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »As the person that dug this thread out of the abyss a few months ago, I can see exactly why ZoS has not done anything with the stam DK at this point.
Every other post is about how mDK players not only want buffs, but think stamina deserves none, outside of a stam whip.
As I mentioned above, sDk and mDk pull from the same sustain tools as well as the same damage tools.
What does this mean:
1. Combustion and Battle Roar are the only methods for resources return for either resource. World in ruin cuts cost for stamina, but unless you are running exclusively bow/bow, this only impacts claws and breath, which are 2 ability out of the 10 on your bar.
2. Searing heat is the only DPS buff for either resource, and it only effects class abilities. World in ruin at least adds more damage to the mDK tool kit, also buffing relevant abilities destro staff abilities.
There is an argument for cost reduction for mDK, but please keep in mind the class currently is the poorest stamina DPS alternative at the moment, and if the flame whip is currently not enough to boost the mDK dps to standard, a poison whip will do no better for sDK.
Poison whip is a meme at this point... I wish everyone would just let it go.
Dragon Knight is and should be a DoT class, and what spammable you use should not really be important anyway IMO, because the bulk of DPS *should* come from sustaining your DoT rotation.
I personally don't have a lot of sustain issues with my Magicka DK, but that is because she is a Breton and I also run Perfected False God's... so in a way I guess I do have a sustain problem, but I found a work around.
I actually like the fact that DK does not have an execute, but I think that should be figured into the overall DPS better. For example if we had an added mechanic similar to the Z'en's Redress 5 Piece bonus as a passive. "Enemies with the Touch of Z'en take an additional 1% more damage for each damage over time effect you've placed on them, up to 5%."
Maybe we could even have the opposite of Bloodthirsty as a passive where we start at full power at 100% health and have it decrease as we get closer to 0...
There are lots of options here, but I would prefer them to be tied to sustaining our DoT rotation as opposed to adding a execute to my skill bar.
You like no execution!??????
It seems you're a PvEer right? (you mentioned that you use false god which is a typical PvE set)
Execution in PvE may not be very essential bit it's very important in PvP.
Please come and play PvP versus good players for a few months with your Magdk and share your feelings about unable to use execution.
DoT isn't good in PvP either because other players can purge your DoT meaning that you can't even let all the DoTs land on your opponents, they just basically stop your DoT.
I switched from PvE to PvP. My magdk is a PvE flawless conquerer and PvP warlord. (The toon has been on VMA and Cyrodiil leaderboards a few times). I also solo'd vet group dungeons with my magdk. I guess I have some basic understanding about magdk in PvE and PvP.
PvE and PvP are basically two different games. One of the reasons why magdk is so bad in PvP is that ZOS focused main on PvE only.
With enough effort and experience, we can still make magdks work in PvP. Sometimes I can 1 v 1 kill high ranked good PvP classes like stamsorc Grand Overlord too, but it's really difficult.
I have done both PvE and PvP on Magicka and Stamina DK. I respect your opinion, but I still disagree with you regarding an execute on the DK.
The challenge with the DK in my opinion is that the damage ramps up more slowly. I agree that this is a problem in PvP since players with purge can negate your damage, but purge is expensive, so if you make the other player use an expensive purge to remove your much cheaper DoT then you are still wining the game of attrition. Which is how I think playing a DK should be. It should be about negating damage with your mitigation and healing while keeping DoT pressure and a well timed ultimate for the kill. There are other classes with much more burst and even have executes if that is what you are in to.
My point is improvements around the DK should center around the class' fighting style and not around changing it into something else. We don't need what would essentially be a Nightblade that uses fire/poison and doesn't have cloak, we need a DK that is good at what DKs do.
What's your experience in Magdk PvP? How intense do play PvP in recent patches? Which grade? PvP leaderboard player? You said that you use flase god gears on your magdk. Honestly are you really a PvPer?
The DoT pressure PvP build workED a few patches ago before the slaughter of DoT damage.
If still you play PvP nowadays, you should have known that majority of players are using stamina 2 handed for execution. Stamina toons are much better than magicka toons in PvP (maybe except magsorcs).
With the nerf on light armor and heavy armor, mag toons are facing new challenges in PvP, especially considering magdks are melee range (a magicka toon fighting 2 handed stamina players in close proximity).
So first of all, I am not going to lay my epeen on the table because it is irreverent to the discussion. We are talking about the overall strategy of how a DK should fight, not specific numbers etc. I have played the game since beta, have lots of achievements, and have an opinion about Dragon Knight. My opinion is just as valuable as yours and I couldn't care less about your achievements.
Secondly, why couldn't I use Perfected False Gods in PvP (other than when proc sets are disabled)? It gives a lot of cost reduction and sustain, and would be fine depending on how you build for it, although I never said I used Perfected False Gods in PvP (I play both), you just assumed that for some reason.
I am in agreement with you on your other points, but I still don't think the answer should be giving DK a class execute. I would rather the combat team fix DoT damage on a DK so that a DoT pressure build works better.
"irrelevant"? no - it's relevant about one's BASIC knowledge about magdk.
Simply playing the game for a long time doesn't equivalent to having basic understanding about a class.
As a multiple-time leaderboard flawless conqueror at VMA and Cyrodiil 1 v x magdk grand warlord, I am sure I have BASIC understanding about magdk.
Please continue to use your PERFECTED false god in PvP as you wish. can't wait to see you in PvP. That's all.
Can mag DK even 1 v X now with the change to mist?
I can share my experience a bit...
I'm using 4H2L1M now. As magdks, we need extra stamina. I have 23-24k stamina on that magcika toon. We have to roll dodge and block a lot. I use well fitted and divine traits.
Usually if I encounter a long range enemy, I'll either roll to the person quickly or lure the person to a smaller area. Magdks are much better in small areas. Keep melee range.
During 1 v x, my own method is to quickly identify who's the most obvious glass cannon (you can spot them easily by applying AOE and see who hurt the most). Stun and kill that one immediately. Keep roll dodging and mind your stamina.
Someone on this thread said magdks don't need execution but I think they NEED execution. Every experienced PvPer knows how important and how difficult it is to eliminate the last portion of their enemies' health. As magdks have no execution, we need to rely on leap but there are a few other problems for example, unlike real spammable execution, leap is an ult and we can't spam it, AND, its damage won't rank up when the enemies' health goes down.
Obviously you should avoid using flase god or other dungeon / pve gears. Remember that you're wasting gear bonus. There are much better gear options in PvP.
I tried to re-make my magdk into stamdk too but I feel lost of identity (most class skills of DKs are magicka based). I somehow treat magdk as a hybrid... At least it works for myself, not sure about other players...
I guess comparing to many other classes, magdk is much more difficult to train... The learning curve if magdk is really tough. If you've paid attention to magdk player base in PvP, you'll notice that currently most magdks are either new players / low ranking alts, or star ranking veterans... Most people gave up magdk during the learning process and switched to better classes (probably like stamdens or stamsorcs)..Edited by LightYagami on April 27, 2021 1:15AMNo improvement on Cyrodill servers -> no ESO plus renewal.0 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭LightYagami wrote: »If there are players thinking that magdks are overperforming or overpowered in PvP, can you please answer yourself the following question honestly:
IF, just if, if the game allows only one toon per account, will you pick magdk as the only toon in PvP?
No because I personally think magic DPS in general is boring, but that is a personal preference.
I won't argue or throw stones(pun) because I just want DK as a whole, stam and mag, in PvP and PvE. Without at the very least an execute, the class will continue to underperform in all facets of the game.0