[Class Rep] Dragonknight Feedback Thread

INe_Saninus

In pvp my Stam DK has felt strong for about the last 6-8 months.
There are some quality of life (or flavor) changes I would love to see though:

-add Major Expedition to wings. This is a no brainer. Wings adds a lot of flavor to the class and I just can't justify running it over Race Against Time currently.

-just give us a solid spamable please. Stone Fist sucks. I personally don't mind the aesthetic, but it feels horrible and is counter intuitive to the way a Stam DK is played.
*Why is there a cast time? Why is the first hit close range, but the 3 additional are ranged?
Brawlers can't use it because it's clunky and the dmg doesn't justify the hassle.
Some ranged bow build can't use it because the first hit has minimal range... (sigh)
Fix it for melee or make it all ranged and give us a solid stam morph for whip.

As far a PVE dps.
...I don't know, man. Lol.
I get that it can't be a top contender for stam dps because it is a top contender for tank, but the gap is just too big between Stam DK and all the other classes.
Everything unique we bring to the table can be supplied by the tank.
Anything added has pvp implications as well.
Stam whip. An execute. Claw buff. Fix Stone Fist.... some combination of all those. Anything to bridge that gap a bit.

Give us a reason to choose Stam DK for PVE dps.

*suggestion:
Add X% dmg per poison ability applied when using Stam Whip.
Say 4% off the top of my head.
Breath, claw, and a poison inject would add 12% dmg to a new spamable.
That would even the gap and give a solid and enjoyable game play loop focusing on dots and the poison dragon theme.
*Bonus- someone might slot poison inject on their bar again!

ArcVelarian

INe_Saninus wrote: »

As far a PVE dps.
...I don't know, man. Lol.
I get that it can't be a top contender for stam dps because it is a top contender for tank, but the gap is just too big between Stam DK and all the other classes.
Everything unique we bring to the table can be supplied by the tank.
Anything added has pvp implications as well.
Stam whip. An execute. Claw buff. Fix Stone Fist.... some combination of all those. Anything to bridge that gap a bit.

Give us a reason to choose Stam DK for PVE dps.

*suggestion:
Add X% dmg per poison ability applied when using Stam Whip.
Say 4% off the top of my head.
Breath, claw, and a poison inject would add 12% dmg to a new spamable.
That would even the gap and give a solid and enjoyable game play loop focusing on dots and the poison dragon theme.
*Bonus- someone might slot poison inject on their bar again!

MagDKs would throw a schmidt fit if one of their Whip Morphs was replaced with a Stamina Whip, even if all their other abilities had their costs lowered their and damage moderately buffed.

There are currently two ways to solve the problem for StamDks:

1. Buff Stone Giant's DPS by at least 15%.
2. Add a Stamina option as a third Whip Morph.

LightYagami

I've been playing magdk as my main over a long time, CP1000+, PvE flawless conquer (on VMA leaderboard a few times), PvP warlord (on Cyrodiil leaderboard a few times), solo's vet dungeons.

I always say that the COMBINED effect of the following problems makes magdk terribly bad in PvP:

1. Lack of burst (burst is very important in PvP, we all know)

2. Most DoT can be purged (can't even land all the slow DoT.

3. Lack of range (especially bad in open area)

4. Lack of mobility (unable to reach opponents or flee quickly. Don't forget they're basically a melee class)

5. No class execution (very difficult to kill opponents under the current high health high recovery meta)

6. Very high cost skills (you may use ultimates to recover resources but that means you are more difficult to control the time of using ultimate with other skills to burst people down)

7. Overly nerfed skills: wings, spike, cc, leap (basically makes magdks illegal to have any special advantages like all other classes have)

I don't think any other classes have ALL the above problems Together. It's fine to have one or two problems, but magdks have ALL the problems. The synergy of ALL the problems makes them bad in PvP.

I don't play group PvE often and I won't oppose that magdks may work as PvE tanks, but they're really bad apart from being PvE tanks.

If there's a class change token, I'll immediately change my magdk to another class.

If someone still complain magdks are too strong, Please, ZOS, Please let me swap the class with the person. I'll change it to any other classes happily.

Edit: typo "group" PvE

Hotdog_23

LightYagami wrote: »

I've been playing magdk as my main over a long time, CP1000+, PvE flawless conquer (on VMA leaderboard a few times), PvP warlord (on Cyrodiil leaderboard a few times), solo's vet dungeons.

I always say that the COMBINED effect of the following problems makes magdk terribly bad in PvP:

1. Lack of burst (burst is very important in PvP, we all know)

2. Most DoT can be purged (can't even land all the slow DoT.

3. Lack of range (especially bad in open area)

4. Lack of mobility (unable to reach opponents or flee quickly. Don't forget they're basically a melee class)

5. No class execution (very difficult to kill opponents under the current high health high recovery meta)

6. Very high cost skills (you may use ultimates to recover resources but that means you are more difficult to control the time of using ultimate with other skills to burst people down)

7. Overly nerfed skills: wings, spike, cc, leap (basically makes magdks illegal to have any special advantages like all other classes have)

I don't think any other classes have ALL the above problems Together. It's fine to have one or two problems, but magdks have ALL the problems. The synergy of ALL the problems makes them bad in PvP.

I don't play group PvE often and I won't oppose that magdks may work as PvE tanks, but they're really bad apart from being PvE tanks.

If there's a class change token, I'll immediately change my magdk to another class.

If someone still complain magdks are too strong, Please, ZOS, Please let me swap the class with the person. I'll change it to any other classes happily.

Edit: typo "group" PvE

Well said.

phantasmalD

LightYagami wrote: »

1. Lack of burst (burst is very important in PvP, we all know)

Petrify into Flame Lash is the burst combo, no? Weaving in some LAs and other skills.

LightYagami wrote: »

4. Lack of mobility (unable to reach opponents or flee quickly. Don't forget they're basically a melee class)

Compared to what? Some classes have even less. DKs have two gap closers, hard CCs, a high amount of snares and an immunity skill.
A class that truly has no mobility is Necromancers, all they is like one snare. DK is either third best or tied for second place. (The other top classes being Sorcerer with Streak and stuns and Nightblade with Shadow Image and Teleport Strike).

6. Very high cost skills (you may use ultimates to recover resources but that means you are more difficult to control the time of using ultimate with other skills to burst people down)

Skill costs are generally standardized across all skill lines, so DK skills aren't objectively more expensive. Most apparent when you compare something like Fiery Grip and Teleport Strike: they both cost 3780 magicka.

We just have rougher sustain; our class passives increase damage, duration or defense instead of giving max resources or cost reduction. Also, no active sustain skill (aka something like the Sorcerer's Dark Exchange).

Arguably the skill cost standards might not be properly balanced, but that's not a DK specific issue.

7. Overly nerfed skills: wings, spike, cc, leap (basically makes magdks illegal to have any special advantages like all other classes have)

Every class can list skills that were nerfed and gutted, not DK specific.
Honestly, while it was really sweet and funny when wings could reflect ultimates it was also ridiculously OP, so a nerf was warranted.
Also, when was Leap ever nerfed? Are you counting the height related targetting restriction as a nerf? Because that's the only thing I can think of. Other than that it only got buffed, like becoming undodgeable and having bigger range.

I'm not saying that DKs are perfectly balanced, but these points feel kind of disingenuous/incorrect to me.

Ultimately the one thing I 100% agree with is #2; DK tools are too easily counterplayable. Immobilization immunity potions make CCs kind of unusable and DoTs are too easy to get rid of and too slow for high HP, high sustain environment.

Sanguinor2

phantasmalD wrote: »

Petrify into Flame Lash is the burst combo, no? Weaving in some LAs and other skills.

Do you really want to call that a burst combo? Thats like saying dizzy is a burst combo. Sub assault/dizzy/db is a burst combo. Or curse/frag/wrath but calling petrify into flame lash a burst combo. I just cant.

Vevvev

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Petrify into Flame Lash is the burst combo, no? Weaving in some LAs and other skills.

Do you really want to call that a burst combo? Thats like saying dizzy is a burst combo. Sub assault/dizzy/db is a burst combo. Or curse/frag/wrath but calling petrify into flame lash a burst combo. I just cant.

Yeah, and then add onto the fact the Power Lash proc misses most of the time because after landing the first hit of Flame Lash on the stunned foe to proc off balance your target has already dodge rolled. You might get lucky they breaks free immediately and then you hit them while immobilized, but I've missed a few of those hits to because they dodge rolled so fast afterwards.

Ahk1lleez

I'd rather see DK get a delayed burst skill or give inhale and its morphs a significant damage buff and a stam morph (it could lose the heal) than a stam whip. I feel like this would bring it further in line than a stam whip would.

Luke_Flamesword

I saw different class lists for both PvE and PvP and dragonknights are never too high, in PvE they are often on the bottom. We can talk about strenght and weak points, but the fact is that dk stays behing in many aspects for long time and something should be done with it. It's just not fair how easy have sorcs to complete vMA and how much more effort dk's must put into it.

There shouldn't be better and worse classes - only different flavours

Don't nerf sorcs, just make every class as easy and powerfull as them.

phantasmalD

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Petrify into Flame Lash is the burst combo, no? Weaving in some LAs and other skills.

Do you really want to call that a burst combo? Thats like saying dizzy is a burst combo. Sub assault/dizzy/db is a burst combo. Or curse/frag/wrath but calling petrify into flame lash a burst combo. I just cant.

Alright, then Inferno\Chains\Flames\Embers\Petrify\Lash\Lash\Lash be the combo. If listing more than two skills is the requirement to be a combo.
I thought it's obvious that lash and petrify wouldn't be the only skills you use and I'm only listing the actual burst portion, but shrug.

> Sub assault/dizzy/db
Notice how two of these aren't even class skills. If we are considering non-class skills then obv DK has more tools as well.

> curse/frag/wrath
Two of these are purgeable prep-skills. If purging and preparing is a non-issue then DK should have plenty of tools to wear down their opponents.

Vevvev wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Petrify into Flame Lash is the burst combo, no? Weaving in some LAs and other skills.

Do you really want to call that a burst combo? Thats like saying dizzy is a burst combo. Sub assault/dizzy/db is a burst combo. Or curse/frag/wrath but calling petrify into flame lash a burst combo. I just cant.

Yeah, and then add onto the fact the Power Lash proc misses most of the time because after landing the first hit of Flame Lash on the stunned foe to proc off balance your target has already dodge rolled. You might get lucky they breaks free immediately and then you hit them while immobilized, but I've missed a few of those hits to because they dodge rolled so fast afterwards.

You can also dodge roll Sub assault. Or Frag. Dodge rolling is not a class specific counterplay.

Sanguinor2

phantasmalD wrote: »

Alright, then Inferno\Chains\Flames\Embers\Petrify\Lash\Lash\Lash be the combo. If listing more than two skills is the requirement to be a combo.
I thought it's obvious that lash and petrify wouldn't be the only skills you use and I'm only listing the actual burst portion, but shrug.

> Sub assault/dizzy/db
Notice how two of these aren't even class skills. If we are considering non-class skills then obv DK has more tools as well.

> curse/frag/wrath
Two of these are purgeable prep-skills. If purging and preparing is a non-issue then DK should have plenty of tools to wear down their opponents.

Here´s the difference tho: For dk if you petrify lash then you will only have the lash, dot ticks and 1 FoO hit at the same time which hardly compares in terms of damage to sub assault/medium weave/db going off at the same time after a preparatory dizzy for offbalance or frag/curse/wrath/potentially meteor too going off at the same time in the amount of burst achieved. Thats why I said that I would hardly call this a burst combo. Not because you didnt list more abilities.

phantasmalD

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Alright, then Inferno\Chains\Flames\Embers\Petrify\Lash\Lash\Lash be the combo. If listing more than two skills is the requirement to be a combo.
I thought it's obvious that lash and petrify wouldn't be the only skills you use and I'm only listing the actual burst portion, but shrug.

> Sub assault/dizzy/db
Notice how two of these aren't even class skills. If we are considering non-class skills then obv DK has more tools as well.

> curse/frag/wrath
Two of these are purgeable prep-skills. If purging and preparing is a non-issue then DK should have plenty of tools to wear down their opponents.

Here´s the difference tho: For dk if you petrify lash then you will only have the lash, dot ticks and 1 FoO hit at the same time which hardly compares in terms of damage to sub assault/medium weave/db going off at the same time after a preparatory dizzy for offbalance or frag/curse/wrath/potentially meteor too going off at the same time in the amount of burst achieved. Thats why I said that I would hardly call this a burst combo. Not because you didnt list more abilities.

Petrify is also a tick of damage, no?
Also what if you tack on Inhale as well? That'd be another tick of damage going of simultaneously.

Without seeing hard actual numbers I can't really tell how well it really compares.

Edit: Also. Meteor. Again, a universal skill (ultimate), not a class one, so you can tack it onto a DK burst combo as well for the same effect.

Sanguinor2

phantasmalD wrote: »

Petrify is also a tick of damage, no?
Also what if you tack on Inhale as well? That'd be another tick of damage going of simultaneously.

Without seeing hard actual numbers I can't really tell how well it really compares.

Edit: Also. Meteor. Again, a universal skill (ultimate), not a class one, so you can tack it onto a DK burst combo as well for the same effect.

Yes you could do that. However there are rather big differences. I put a simple julianos willpower shackle build into the build editor (without CP) the results are the following:
The DK spends 16k magicka opposed to 6.7k a sorc spends. The dk uses 6 gdcs opposed to the 3 of the sorc. The dk does around 28k damage opposed to the 38k damage of the sorc (and the sorc is being generous and not using a single dot or rune cage/streak damage which would push it to 41/42k depending on which stun is used).
The results: The dk spends double the time and nearly 3 times the resources to set up a much more complex burst combo only to hit for about 2/3rds of the damage the sorc does with a much easier and much cheaper burst combo while also having more sustain and mobility and healing and more defense against any build that utilizes projectiles (if bol is slotted instead of streak) (if matriach is used, matriarch would also increase the damage by another 1k).

yeyesil

Magdk with molten whip deals insane amount of damage. After you refresh your buffs, degen, flames of oblivion and ele drain, all you need to do is embers-2xengulfing flames-leap-flames of oblivion hit-3x stack molten whip=GG.
With this combo I can kill every class in a few seconds. While the dots are on your target, they will melt down and with this burst combo, you won't even need an execute.

But there are some disadvantages when compared to other classes. You need to wear 5x light to kill tanky stamina players otherwise you won't be able to kill your target and you will most probably die soon. If you wear light armor with offensive sets, you will have 16k-20k resist and you will get oneshot from any stamina classes or magsorcs so you need to block their burst. Magsorcs have the same potential of burst but they are very mobile thanks to streak/BoL. Stamina classes are strong enough to tank any damage while they can kill their opponents with oneshot. In addition you also need proc dots to melt your target before you do your burst combo otherwise you won't be able to kill strong players especially stamina ones.

I also think magicka dk needs some buff. Next patch with block cost increase from light armor, magdks will have harder times to kill the target in heavy or lack stamina sustain in light. I don't want to be dependent on proc dots to kill my target while stamina necros and wardens uses full wep damage builds in medium/heavy tanking every damage and still kill their target with 1 combo.

Sangwyne

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The purpose of this thread is to give you a place to post your current top two pain points with the Dragonknight.

1. Sustain. There was a recent poll on the forums about which class has the worst sustain, and Dragonknight alone had more votes than every other class combined, it's obvious to everyone this needs to be addressed. Many of Dragonknight's skills are really expensive, Ash Cloud being well over 5k, Obsidian shield being 4k despite having its shield value, length of major mending, and even the major mending buff itself nerfed over the years; with no % cost reduction skills and having to juggle their ultimate in order to still fall short of other classes in terms of resource recovery, it's long past time to look at addressing how much the skills cost as compared to what they are actually providing.

2. Healing. DKs are the worst healers in the game, both of others and themselves, bar none. Part of that is the aforementioned cost of skills, part of it is simply not having any good heals in general. Even as a tank, Green Dragon Blood falls short of other equivalent heals; it heals for 33% of missing health and gives two major buffs that we already obtain through potions, whereas Arctic Blast for instance heals 25% of max health instantly, 15% of max health over 5s, deals AOE DOT damage with 300% chance to apply Chilled, Minor Maim, Minor Brittle for 10% crit damage, and activate Glacial presence for another 10% crit damage, on top of also being an unblockable, AOE 4s stun. In order for just the initial heal on GDB to be equal to that of Arctic Blast, DKs need to be at 25% of their health (execute range), and do not get the additional 15% max hp HOT that Arctic Blast has or any of the other benefits; 33% missing health will never equal 40% max health.

These are the most egregious issues I currently see with DK; on top of being the worst Healer in the game, there is a strong argument to be made that it is also the worst DPS in the game, with Stam DK consistently coming in as one of the lowest DPS parses for trials. It's pretty much only brought as a DPS, if ever, for Stagger and buffs to help other classes deal damage, because it is utterly incapable of competing. And the reason that DK is brought as a tank is due more to needing its class-specific buffs or utility (Stagger, Engulfing, Chains, Obsidian) but not wanting to use it as a DPS than to its own durability, because as mentioned, Warden has a much better heal (along with Sorcerer), Nightblade more HP and mitigation through Mirage, Sorcerer more block mitigation, and Necro less damage taken through Spirit Guardian's 10% and their 15% DOT reduction.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

@Sangwyne
I couldn't have put it better myself

Togal

Improve sustain on dk, other classes have nice recovery or other means of sustain while dk feels like its lacking.

LightYagami

phantasmalD wrote: »

LightYagami wrote: »

1. Lack of burst (burst is very important in PvP, we all know)

Petrify into Flame Lash is the burst combo, no? Weaving in some LAs and other skills.

LightYagami wrote: »

4. Lack of mobility (unable to reach opponents or flee quickly. Don't forget they're basically a melee class)

Compared to what? Some classes have even less. DKs have two gap closers, hard CCs, a high amount of snares and an immunity skill.
A class that truly has no mobility is Necromancers, all they is like one snare. DK is either third best or tied for second place. (The other top classes being Sorcerer with Streak and stuns and Nightblade with Shadow Image and Teleport Strike).

6. Very high cost skills (you may use ultimates to recover resources but that means you are more difficult to control the time of using ultimate with other skills to burst people down)

Skill costs are generally standardized across all skill lines, so DK skills aren't objectively more expensive. Most apparent when you compare something like Fiery Grip and Teleport Strike: they both cost 3780 magicka.

We just have rougher sustain; our class passives increase damage, duration or defense instead of giving max resources or cost reduction. Also, no active sustain skill (aka something like the Sorcerer's Dark Exchange).

Arguably the skill cost standards might not be properly balanced, but that's not a DK specific issue.

7. Overly nerfed skills: wings, spike, cc, leap (basically makes magdks illegal to have any special advantages like all other classes have)

Every class can list skills that were nerfed and gutted, not DK specific.
Honestly, while it was really sweet and funny when wings could reflect ultimates it was also ridiculously OP, so a nerf was warranted.
Also, when was Leap ever nerfed? Are you counting the height related targetting restriction as a nerf? Because that's the only thing I can think of. Other than that it only got buffed, like becoming undodgeable and having bigger range.

I'm not saying that DKs are perfectly balanced, but these points feel kind of disingenuous/incorrect to me.

Ultimately the one thing I 100% agree with is #2; DK tools are too easily counterplayable. Immobilization immunity potions make CCs kind of unusable and DoTs are too easy to get rid of and too slow for high HP, high sustain environment.

Do you play magdk at PvP? If your mainis another class, can you please swap the class with me?

LightYagami

Some people still treating the leap as a gap closer or execution, they are comparing DK Ult to spammables of other classes and claim that DK is fine...

Some even don't know the nerfing... Interesting...

ZOS, please, please let magdk players swap class with those people complaining DKs are OP. I'll pay for 20,000 crowns happily, so that I can play a better class, and they can play the OP magdk, and you can earn money.

ArcVelarian

1. Sustain. DK sustain is some of the worst in the game. In particular it's terrible for StamDKs. Helping Hands is useless since Stone Giant isn't worth slotting, and Combustion doesn't proc enough/return enough resources to make any difference. Battle Roar is good, however, DKs don't generate Ultimate fast enough to make up for the frankly pathetic sustain that Helping Hands and Combustion offer.
2. Stone Giant. It does not do enough damage to be worth slotting, especially with the current functionality.

Vilixiti

As a magDK my two are:
1. MOBILITY.
2. Sustain. Our skills cost so much.

MerguezMan

As (rather) stamDK, I struggle with:

1) Sustain

Most other classes have a static regen of a stat where DK only has a % boost from dragon blood, which is not meaningful if your base regen is not high already. I have to heavy attack a LOT more (hence Molten armaments is fine for that), but that also means my DPS is lower, because slower in prolonged fights (this is only made worse when the game is stuck in combat).

I'd like to see a redesign of
- "Helping hands" passive to give a more consistent regen of stamina, like 120 stam per second for skill duration, or make it 1k stam return for ANY mag skill.
- Obsidian shield to be actually useful on its own. The shield is ridiculous, and the buff is useless if you don't cast a heal just after.
- Anything that would add stam healing or purge effects

2) Lack of damage

Most skills have issues in how they are applied - PvP has an obvious issue with purge counters that make all DK dots irrelevant, and on PVE side most class skills are underperfoming because they are only MAG aligned.

I'd like to see a redesign of
- Ash cloud to have a wider area and include a physical damage component, or at least, have the cloud move with the player
- Dragon wings to either have an active damage component or actually return damage to enemies
- Whip to benefit physical penetration

yeyesil

With the increasing stats and damage in flames of ambition patch, dotdks are now viable. Dots really hard now.

I dont see any sustain problem with stamdk. Helping hands and combustion passives work as intended. Dk doesnt need base regen buff as you need to use block more than other classes and passive regens are better for it.

Stamdk needs buff to reliable spammable instead of trash skill stonegiant. It either needs to be reworked or needs better spammable like old heroic slash. Stamdk lacks burst skill so we need to focus on pressure setups and dizzy isnt good for this playstyle. I dont think stamdk needs any other buffs. Healing is good and tankyness is good if you are good at block timing.

On the other hand magdk needs more buffs.

1. Sustain is one of the worst among all classes. Combustion passive should be reworked or cost of magdk skills should be reduced.

2. Tankyness is really bad. You need to abuse mist form or you need to stay in permablock but its not possible in this patch as your stamina will drain so fast. If you use full defensive sets and build you will not be able to kill your Target and this is the last problem.

3. Magdk damage depends on proc builds. You need high dot damage but magdk dots are really weak without procs or draugrkin. Burst with 3x moltenwhip and leap combo is far behind stamina classes. Btw if you stack 3x whip most probably your magicka will be lower than %50 or less.

Zer0_CooL

Im suggesting to:

• Give the delayed damage tic of inhale a damage bonus to enemies below 25%HP.
  
• Increase the speed of the reflected damage from the wings.
  
• Fix gapclosers in general. Even if that means players can teleport on keepwalls again (this LA/force shock spamming from Keepwalls is of no use anyway). Its just pintless to slot a skill that you must spam +4 times to land a hit.
  
• Fix firy breath. There defenitly is a hidden cast time on the animation.
  
• Increase the size of Ashcloud and its morphs
  

Sahidom

Revert the DoT damage changes and update the few skills for Stamina to be impactful and not a novelty skill meant to only look good on paper, as textbook and real life don't match up equally.

Thank you.

DreadDaedroth

Wings pretty much never see use putting aside situational events like tanking hard mode dungeons and trials. Restore them to pre Elsweyr.

INe_Saninus

Wings being buffed is the one thing that every single DK main can agree on, regardless if stam or mag.

Class needs flavor.

Canperial35

Considering the low duration of wings, I think it should be either %75 damage reduction or one of the morphs should be a stamina skill, I think the second one is the better option. Since the sustain is a problem on stamdk, people usually want to use Artaeum Takeaway Broth but they end up using Bewitched Sugar Skulls because the wings are all about magicka and magicka is generally being used for other damage shield and resist skills.

Elo106

Buff Wings, gib magicka Execute. Please & Thank U

ArcVelarian

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

Wings pretty much never see use putting aside situational events like tanking hard mode dungeons and trials. Restore them to pre Elsweyr.

And give it Minor Expedition to finally give DKs some mobility. As a bonus that would also help Tank mobility in PvE.