[Class Rep] Dragonknight Feedback Thread

ke.sardenb14_ESO

@yeyesil
Something to consider is that Stamina DK morphs are cheaper because Stamina morph across all classes are cheaper then the magic alternatives. They are cheaper because dodges and sprints cost stamina, and not only does block cost stamina, but blocking stops recovery.
Also rather then execute skill that is executely mag, I would probably give the class a whole, that functions as the opposite amplitude for fire and poison damage, that way every thing would effectively ramp up as the fight progress, i.e. the whip would increase, while not buffing the stamDKs burst, even though they have to lean on weapons to get burst.

ArcVelarian

Sustain: Abysmal for both Stamina DKs and Magicka DKs.

Damage: Stam DKs are the worst DPS in the game (if you get killed by one in PvP then you should really rethink your build and play style). Mag DK is mostly being held back by sustain.

Tanking: The only reason to bring a DK along in PvE is their group buffs. Except for Templar, every other class is outperforming DKs as Tanks. This is ridiculous considering they're meant to be THE tanking class.

Healing: Class heals for DK are weak, expensive, and borderline useless.

Xvorg

yeyesil wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

I Played Stam DK for 1.5 years from 2016 on and am playing it again since 2021 now. I am a pvper. I have played every class on stam except NB. Back in the day stam DK had such a worse sustain that is was very bad. That has been adressed in some buffs since. My oppinion/suggestions:

- Stam DK still need a bit sustain buff. (Compare eg Templar with getting 480 Stam or mag recovery by 1 skill, Rune Fokus)
- Compared to Mag DK, Which can heal automatically by a lot of skills, stam DK needs a bit more heal. Eg by a skill that does damage and heals you for a bit also.
- I agree with what many here already said, that Stam DK should have its identity towards a hybrid class to utilize both stam and mag. The mag part needs to be adjusted a bit for the stam dk, so it can be utilized better by the stam DK.

Thank you!

I play both stam and magicka dk for 4-5 years and your suggestions are completely wrong.

-Stamdk has one of the best stamina sustain in this game with combustion passive, low skill costs(%25 cost reduction to poison abilities), low cost and best burst ulti (leap) with resource return.

But you are pigeonholed into playing the poison archetype, which is not quite appealing to some DKs. Some DKs prefer good old bursty style and that playing style is quite underwhelming

-Stamdk can use its magicka for %80-90 uptime major mending and low cost burst heal cauterize. You can have 25k+vigor tooltip with tanky builds.

But that leaves out of the equation some other important magicka skills, like foss or talons. Cauterize on the other hand is a coin flip in duo or group playing. It is far from being a reliable heal.

On the other hand, magicka dk's sustain is one the worst in this game because of high costs of skills. The burst healing skill(coag blood) cannot be spammed and cauterize doesnt heal much unlike stamdk. Dots may not be enough to kill a stamina class and magdk has no execute damage. Without execute or any defile debuff, dots can be outhealed easily by stamina classes.

There should be no problem if you cater to a similar strategy used with stam DK, which is playing the strengths of the class. That means magDK should not use dots (because they are underwhelming) and instead it should go for the high burst molten whip. But again, not all mDKs want to play that playing style (some mDKs would be happy enough to use inhale ate least once again in their rotations, but it won't happen)

The real problem with DKs has been described several times in this very same thread. It has some few useful tools, while the rest are just a waste of a skill point (including active and passive skills). Sadly those useful skills pigeon hole your playing style too much it is clone wars again.

BejaProphet

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Sustain: Abysmal for both Stamina DKs and Magicka DKs.

Damage: Stam DKs are the worst DPS in the game (if you get killed by one in PvP then you should really rethink your build and play style). Mag DK is mostly being held back by sustain.

Tanking: The only reason to bring a DK along in PvE is their group buffs. Except for Templar, every other class is outperforming DKs as Tanks. This is ridiculous considering they're meant to be THE tanking class.

Healing: Class heals for DK are weak, expensive, and borderline useless.

@ArcVelarian i’d love to hear you explain how every class but Templar out performs DK as tank. How so? Specifics please, so that I can weigh what you say.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

There is a solid argument to be made that the DK tank can use some upgrades. They have expensive mag abilities, and it would be nice if helping hands allow you to get mag back from casting stamina abilities, and this would improve stone giants utility, since no one likes for a spammable.
But the DK is probably considered the best tank, it is okay at everything, and terrible at nothing. Even the mag issue I mentioned above, can be solved by slotting balance. You could argue only the warden is as versatile, but the DK still has better snares/pulls. Also, a single warden healer can provide everything a warden tank could, while it is unlikely a stam DK will be invited to the party, DK healers are only a legend, and MagDK could not sustain stagger.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

@Xvorg
You hit the nail on the head, the issues with the DK dps is global. At the end of the day, the DK has zero passives effecting burst damage, and until that changes mDK and sDK will underperform.

INe_Saninus

I main a Stam DK. CP 1440+. Right around 2 years game time.

Other than leap (and fossilize if you can afford it), why choose a Stam DK in PvP?

From armor abilities/gap closers/spamables/mobility options/purifies/passives... every single class brings more than a DK. Every single ability you can choose is outclassed by almost every other class.

-Armor abilities? Stamden, Stamsorc, and even Stamplars are better.
-Mobility? Stamsorc, Stamblade, and Stamden.
-Spamable? Stamblade and Stamplar are the clear winners here.
-Semi spamables? Stamden, Stamcro, Stamsorc all have great options to fight against... our what?! Noxious Breath? Venomous Claw?! We don't even really have one. The two given are as close as we get.
-Gag closers...? Stamblade, Stamplar, and Stamsorc.

-Oh! We got dots?! Nope. Templar, Warden, Necro, and any slightly organized group say NOPE. No dots for you.

I think the class needs almost a complete rework from top to bottom.

Leave Leap. Keep Fossilize.

Make us tanky. The tankiest class.
If I have to wait 14 seconds for my SINGLE TARGET dot to start hurting on the off chance that it hasn't been purified, can I at least live to see it?
Question: why are my dots purifiable at all?! That's what we're supposed to do.
I can't purify a Subterranean peeling back my hairline!

Our base abilities have potential.
Wings, chains, whip, poopfist....
But they are all so underwhelming and ill conceived that you're better off just equipping skills from other skill lines.
-Major Expedition? That's on our... gap closer?!
-50% less projectile dmg? That's on... our wings?! What?!
-Poopfist has... stagger?! Wtf is stagger?!

There are hundreds of ideas in this thread to fix these issues.
-Major Expedition on wings.
-Stam Whip.
-Unpurgable class dots (with a little more dmg).
-Stam whip w/ escalating dmg per dot.
-Making Poopfist not awkward and rewarding to use.
-Delayed burst (how many skills could be easily changed to offer this?)

Just do any of them.
Seriously. Anything would help at this point.
Do all of them.
We still won't be better than Wardens.

Just. Do. Something.

Please.

ArcVelarian

These are the kinds of specific changes necessary to bring DK back up to par:

1. Buff Stone Giant's damage by at least 20% and remove the cast time.
2. Combustion should be providing Magicka and Stamina resource restoration per DoT tick in addition to flat regen.
3. Lava Whip (and both morphs) need to scale off of highest offensive stats.
4. Inferno (and both morphs) should really be activating every 1 or 2 seconds as opposed to 5 seconds.
5. Dragon Blood should scale based on max health and not missing health.
6. Inhale needs a significant damage buff and a Stamina Morph.
7. Iron Skin should be doubled (to 20%) if not tripled (to 30%).
8. Burning Heart should increase healing received by 20% while a Draconic Power ability is active.
9. Draconic Power abilities need to have their costs reduced in general.
10. Scaled Armor should provide 3300 Physical Resistance in addition to 3300 Spell Resistance. It's silly this isn't already the case.
11. Ash Cloud (and both morphs) should have its radius increased to 8 meters and Cinder Storm should heal for significantly more.
12. Mountain's Blessing should generate 6 Ultimate every 3 seconds.

BejaProphet

ArcVelarian wrote: »

These are the kinds of specific changes necessary to bring DK back up to par:

1. Buff Stone Giant's damage by at least 20% and remove the cast time.
2. Combustion should be providing Magicka and Stamina resource restoration per DoT tick in addition to flat regen.
3. Lava Whip (and both morphs) need to scale off of highest offensive stats.
4. Inferno (and both morphs) should really be activating every 1 or 2 seconds as opposed to 5 seconds.
5. Dragon Blood should scale based on max health and not missing health.
6. Inhale needs a significant damage buff and a Stamina Morph.
7. Iron Skin should be doubled (to 20%) if not tripled (to 30%).
8. Burning Heart should increase healing received by 20% while a Draconic Power ability is active.
9. Draconic Power abilities need to have their costs reduced in general.
10. Scaled Armor should provide 3300 Physical Resistance in addition to 3300 Spell Resistance. It's silly this isn't already the case.
11. Ash Cloud (and both morphs) should have its radius increased to 8 meters and Cinder Storm should heal for significantly more.
12. Mountain's Blessing should generate 6 Ultimate every 3 seconds.

You, sir, swing for the fences when you swing!

ArcVelarian

BejaProphet wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

These are the kinds of specific changes necessary to bring DK back up to par:

1. Buff Stone Giant's damage by at least 20% and remove the cast time.
2. Combustion should be providing Magicka and Stamina resource restoration per DoT tick in addition to flat regen.
3. Lava Whip (and both morphs) need to scale off of highest offensive stats.
4. Inferno (and both morphs) should really be activating every 1 or 2 seconds as opposed to 5 seconds.
5. Dragon Blood should scale based on max health and not missing health.
6. Inhale needs a significant damage buff and a Stamina Morph.
7. Iron Skin should be doubled (to 20%) if not tripled (to 30%).
8. Burning Heart should increase healing received by 20% while a Draconic Power ability is active.
9. Draconic Power abilities need to have their costs reduced in general.
10. Scaled Armor should provide 3300 Physical Resistance in addition to 3300 Spell Resistance. It's silly this isn't already the case.
11. Ash Cloud (and both morphs) should have its radius increased to 8 meters and Cinder Storm should heal for significantly more.
12. Mountain's Blessing should generate 6 Ultimate every 3 seconds.

You, sir, swing for the fences when you swing!

It would take a home run to rescue the Class.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

My wish list

passives
-Change helping hands so that casting a stam ability refund mag, and a mag eh ability refunds stam, and place them on separate timers(this would do x for tanks)
-Change scaled armor to 3300 physical and spell resistance.
-Change combustion so that resource returns is higher, either making it 1000 per apply, or 250-300 per status tick, this can be higher for mag. Leave damage where it is.
-Change the damage tip from searing heat to buffing poison/fire dots(not just class) by 15-25%, leave duration increases the same and exclusive to class abilities.
-Change world in ruin completely so that all poison and fire (dot and direct) increases by 1% for every 10% of missing health. leave stamina cost the same.
-Change battle Roar to return 25-35 resources, pre-ultimate spent rather then ultimate cost.

Skills
-Change inferno and all of its morphs to have major savagery.
-Change Noxious Breath morph so that I apply a unique class debuff. This would ensure stam DK could have a place in trails.
-Switch fiery grip to draconic power and Inhale to ardent flame.
-Change Inhale and base morphs to all have interrupt.
-Change deep breath to insta-cast cleave hit, that either heals less or not at. Make the ability competitive with wrecking blow damage wise.
-increase heal on draw essence to 200%, make initial hit fire damage, and increase final hit damage
-remove cast from stonefist, and it's morphs, and lower damage from spam standard.
-increase shield granted by Obsidian shield and all its morphs by 25-50%
-increase shield granted by harden armor to be competitive.
-convert violtile armor damage to flame, and let it scale with max health
-change green dragons blood to give minor endurance rather then major.
-Change standards to cause fire or poison damage based on max resources.(this is a stretch)

Veg

MAKE THIS HAPPEN

Ippokrates

Veg wrote: »

MAKE THIS HAPPEN

Also change magic to flame would be nice.

notyuu

Just spitballing an idea for a DK skill as they could use a little love.

Rupture
Purge/consume all the damage over time effects on your target and casue them to immedtly take 50% of the remaining over time damage in a single attack (i.e. say they are burning with 8K remaining over 4 seconds, rupture makes them instnatly take 4K)

morph 1: becomes a 50% scaling execute

Morph 2: Increases the damage of the rupture "burst"

SaintSubwayy

Well as a DK Main since the beginning and my recent return to it, it still seems that DKs get the short end of the stick.
While overall Damage has once again risen due to powercreep and some changes, it seems that MagDK is still lacking behind.

Keep in Mind I'm only looking at the PVE side of MagDK in this Post!!

Yes MagDK became somewhat usefull and desired due to the implementation of Z'ens its now a viable choice for endgame PVE, as the buff******.
While beeing viable is great, somehow it still feels a bit underwhelming.

I did a few parses on the Dummy, and find 2 Skills are particularly lacking in regards to their DPS, which both could use some love.

Burning Embers & Engulfing Flames

Both of those skills havily rely on your ardent flame passives Searing heat and to a degree World in ruins to be viable at all. (Which TBH is a Joke in itself )



So lets adress both skills separately and bring some Ideas for buffs.


Burning Embers:

While this morph has been a staple on MagDks since release its power seems still a bit low. Even Zaan managed to pull more DPS in my tries an thats including the critluck on my Embers Dot. While the overall Dmg of Embers (including direct dmg on cast) reached higher then Zaan Its still below the Burning Statuseffect, which is kinda laughable.
A statuseffect is dealing more DPS than a Singletarget DOT

We also need to take into consideration, that Burning Embers also Heals for 75% of the DMG done. This is nice, however the heal cannot crit (fair enough, it would be beyond broken if it could doubledipp with crits).

Possible Solution:
Increase the DOTdmg of this skill by approx 50%, and lower the Healing effect to 50% of the dmg dealt.
This will result in the same healing done and increases the DMG to be on a better level in terms of MagDK viabilty.
75% of 15000 Dmg Dealt = 11250 Healing
50% of (15000x1,5)-> 22500 Dmg Dealt = 11250 Healing


Engulfing Flames

This Skill has been a MagDK staple since release aswell, since it boosts you own DMG Dealt.
While the Adjustment, to make the % boost for flamedmg to be tied to the offensive Stats of the MagDk was a great change for MagDK DD's. It hasent completly lost the ability to be used by the tank if no MagDK DD is in the group. It is still the easiest way to buff your groups Flameskills and Lightattacks, and therefore a must have in any Raid.

While the Main reason to Slot this skill is to buff your groups Dmg, the DMG it brings is on the lower side.

Possible Solution:
Engulfing Flames needs to keep its value as a Buff skill, there's no question about that. However the DOTdmg is so lackluster, that a 60% DMG Buff doesnt seem to be unreasonable.


Conclusion
Both those changes combined would add an additional 3,5k - 4k DPS (based on the Numbers in my Parse) depending on CP's, Critluck etc. which would be a start into the right direction. Maybe not enough to bring DK to the DPS lvl it would deserve for beeing meele but atleast it would close the Gap a bit more.

Elo106

@ZOS_Kevin can you please find out if there are any plans regarding DKs, or if ZOS thinks DKs are doing fine?

DKs constantly place last in forum polls (which class do you fear the most in cyro, best sustain etc) and there are countless threads about DKs being bad/needing a buff.

Yet the last patch notes dont reflect that. Please and thank you.

TwinLamps

Not sure why this thread exists.
Clearly, DK is not a priority for devs.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

I hate to say it, but it seems like it is true

TwinLamps wrote: »

Not sure why this thread exists.
Clearly, DK is not a priority for devs.

That or the class rep is the only one fine with it

MrMazurski

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

I hate to say it, but it seems like it is true

TwinLamps wrote: »

Not sure why this thread exists.
Clearly, DK is not a priority for devs.

That or the class rep is the only one fine with it

I don't think this project is even alive. It is such an empty shell for me. Zero information, feedback, there was no from it.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

MrMazurski wrote: »

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

I hate to say it, but it seems like it is true

TwinLamps wrote: »

Not sure why this thread exists.
Clearly, DK is not a priority for devs.

That or the class rep is the only one fine with it

I don't think this project is even alive. It is such an empty shell for me. Zero information, feedback, there was no from it.

Reps that that stream have mentioned the meetings still happen. They probably just stopped looking at the forums.

MrMazurski

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

I hate to say it, but it seems like it is true

TwinLamps wrote: »

Not sure why this thread exists.
Clearly, DK is not a priority for devs.

That or the class rep is the only one fine with it

I don't think this project is even alive. It is such an empty shell for me. Zero information, feedback, there was no from it.

Reps that that stream have mentioned the meetings still happen. They probably just stopped looking at the forums.

I asked my brother and he said the whole project had been dead for a good year

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The purpose of this thread is to give you a place to post your current top two pain points with the Dragonknight. Our new Class Representatives will be keeping a close eye on this thread, and will utilize it to gather additional feedback for the notes they’re currently compiling for their first meeting with the Dev Team next week. Please be sure and keep your post clear and succinct, and focus more on what is currently frustrating you rather than potential solutions. Thanks!

1. Zero changes
2. Pretending everything is ok with DK

ArcVelarian

Is the Class Rep program even still going? Because it sure as hell looks like the Devs aren't taking any player feedback into account. The lack of acknowledgement is extremely disheartening.

WaltherCarraway

Quantum, the DK class representative, has already retired from the game.

ArcVelarian

WaltherCarraway wrote: »

Quantum, the DK class representative, has already retired from the game.

That figures.

DreadDaedroth

Dks still going around with clipped wings,
Bring back to how they were before Elsweyr.

BronzeCaiman

1. Make DK healers actually useful in trials, my idea was maybe add 15% LA damage on a Molten Weapons morph, but require 35k magicka to hit the full LA buff value. Or you can make them have a team shield that scales off max magicka.

2. The stamina whip has been requested since launch.

Nirntrotter

At this point I'd welcome any and all attention. DD DK just feels so bad to play compared to the others.

ArcVelarian

Nirntrotter wrote: »

At this point I'd welcome any and all attention. DD DK just feels so bad to play compared to the others.

As I've said repeatedly, it's mostly DK's abysmal sustain that's the issue (which is amplified on Mag DK). Overhaul Combustion to provide magicka and stamina regen when DK abilities deal any damage and that would greatly help.

vesselwiththepestle

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The purpose of this thread is to give you a place to post your current top two pain points with the Dragonknight. Our new Class Representatives will be keeping a close eye on this thread, and will utilize it to gather additional feedback for the notes they’re currently compiling for their first meeting with the Dev Team next week. Please be sure and keep your post clear and succinct, and focus more on what is currently frustrating you rather than potential solutions. Thanks!

1. DPS are too low.
2. The behavior of the class spammable, mainly every fourth cast has a cast time, which hinders me of bar swap animation cancel out of it. Over the course of a fight I can't keep track when I will get the cast time and I am not allowed to bar swap instantly, thus me ending in casting the wrong skills because I assumed I did a bar swap when I didn't. This might seem like a minor point, but I cast the spammable all the time in every fight, that's why it's called a spammable, and this change even lead me to play Mag DK for a year instead of my beloved Stam DK. Please, I beg of you, find a solution to this pain point.

Cor_

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Nirntrotter wrote: »

At this point I'd welcome any and all attention. DD DK just feels so bad to play compared to the others.

As I've said repeatedly, it's mostly DK's abysmal sustain that's the issue (which is amplified on Mag DK). Overhaul Combustion to provide magicka and stamina regen when DK abilities deal any damage and that would greatly help.

I think the biggest issue is that when you spec into proccing burning, your sustain is reallly good but your damage is hampered, but if you don't spec into it, you will hardly notice it. You lose pretty much either way. As opposed to other classes that get % regen increases or flat returns from skills (like netch or rune).

I'm not sure how performant a solution this would be, but you could replace combustion so that every flame dot tick returns X magicka (say 100?). Speaking from a pvp perspective, this helps DKs in outnumbered situtations. The more players you are fighting, the more flame dot ticks you can apply (burning talons/engulfing/eruption/wall of elements) and so your sustain is better.

With my number of 100 returned, if you burning talons 6 people, you will get back 600 magicka per second. Meaning you will recover 2400 magicka over the 4 seconds, approx 2/3 of the cost of talons. But, if you were to be fighting only 1 person, you would get 100 per second, so 400 over the entire duration which is roughly 1/9 of the cost of talons.

If you threw on engulfing on 6 people at the same time, you would get an additional 600 magicka every 2 seconds (because engulfing ticks every 2 seconds from what I remember). Meaning that over the entire DoT duration (14 seconds/7 ticks), you get 4200 magicka. So net positive but you are fighting 6 people, so you are probably using that magicka to heal and defend But again, fighting 1 person, you only get 100 every 2 seconds, so 700 over the entire duration (1/4 of the cost approx).

This fits into the theme of DK as you are incentivizied to build around dots as they help your sustain. It allows you to play offensive against multiple enemies without exhausting yourself, allowing you to have magicka left to heal when you need to. However, it doesn't skew 1v1 fights in your favor more than the current combustion passive.

The problems I could forsee are interactions with sets like Elf Bane where applying burning talons on 6 people now turns 5400 magicka over the 9 second DoT duration. Another problem is when you are fighting many enemies in Aoe trash pulls in PvE or large group combat in PvP. Abilities such as eruption/wall of elements might over perform and return too much magicka. However, in pvp I would argue that you can simply walk out of the aoe to stop the magicka return. Regardless, it would be interesting to see a comparison between the normal combustion and this combustion in large AoE situations. They might come out to roughly the same value.