[Class Rep] Dragonknight Feedback Thread

IZZEFlameLash

Beffagorn wrote: »

Feedback about Stamdk PvP.

I feel these are the main Issues with the class:

Sustain.
Lack of Stamina Morphs
No way to cleanse ourselves of Dots/Debuffs.
Not appealing at all for any kind of group play.
Limited Kit.

Solutions:

Spiked Armor replaced by a new stamina based morph, Corrosive Shell.

Converts into a Stamina ability and deals Poison Damage. Cleanses up to 4 harmful effects from yourself. 3 seconds after the ability has been activated, you release a poison nova that deals small Poison Damage has an increased chance to apply the Poisoned status effect based on the amount of harmful effects removed. Costs 1000 Stamina.

The ability sinergizes well with the passives World in Ruin and Combustion. It directly affects 3 of weaknesses the class suffers from, and i think is in line with other similiar abilities in the game. The damage nova can also be lined up for bursts.

Choking Talons reworked into a new stamina based morph.

Converts into a Stamina Ability and deals Poison Damage. Applies minor maim. Costs 3200-3400 stamina.

A simple change that makes StamDKs more appealing in group play and expands our limited kit. shouldn't have any repercussion for PvE tanks.

Elder Dragon.

Now also increases Stamina and Magicka Recovery, by a smaller amount than Health Recovery. Increased range on instant melee attack component removed.

The range increase component never made sense to me. Neither Magdks nor Stamdks need it, imo. The increased Recovery is badly needed for both MagDKs and StamDKs

Your suggested change will take away the only source of Minor Maim for mDK and flatout a lot better than mDK with that cleanse suggestion. DK changes should be a general change so that both specs can benefit from them. Real problem with sDK is that it is stuck doing tank/spank more or less and tanking part has gotten progressively harder. Which is a general DK problem when it comes to PvP.

Beffagorn

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Your suggested change will take away the only source of Minor Maim for mDK and flatout a lot better than mDK with that cleanse suggestion. DK changes should be a general change so that both specs can benefit from them. Real problem with sDK is that it is stuck doing tank/spank more or less and tanking part has gotten progressively harder. Which is a general DK problem when it comes to PvP.

Then make Minor Maim baseline in Dark Talons.

Giving a cleanse to Stamdks is not going to make if "flatout better" than Magdks. When playing MagDK i have ways of dealing with dots, without needing a cleanse skill.

I can keep up wings for extended periods of time if needed, negating a lot of incoming projectile dots/debuffs. I can't use wings more than 2-3 times as StamDK, a single use of wings will also lock me from refreshing Spiked Armor or using Igneous Shield for Major Mending

I have a resto staff. I find Healing Ward + Mutagen to be enough to negate most DoT damage, and if things get difficult i have Panacea or Ferocious Leap shield. On my StamDK i only have Vigor and Rally. A Blood Craze alone completely negates both of them. When fighting a bleed build, Rally doesn't last long enough to make the burst heal component high enough. Even if it does, I'm probably going to die shortly after. My Stam Ultimates can't do anything about it either.

I have a much higher sustained damage, resulting in opponents having to play more defensively. Fossilize Also helps me burn through their resource pools quickly, forcing them into a position where they almost can't refresh their bleeds. Against certain builds, they literally can't keep up. As Stamdk, my sustained damage is basically non-existant. I'm forced in using Dizzying Swing, an incredibly easy skill to counter. Brawler / Claws is not even close to being enough to force an opponent to play defensively. Using a DW build means i have more sustained damage, but no way to heal myself other than Vigor and DoTs can't be kited.

When playing MagDK, dots/bleeds are the least of my concerns. My sustain is what makes me worried, not the fact i don't have a way to cleanse myself.

EDIT: Forgot to add it into the post. Burning Embers + Power Lash heal is also great to negate dots

Savos_Saren

Beffagorn wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Your suggested change will take away the only source of Minor Maim for mDK and flatout a lot better than mDK with that cleanse suggestion. DK changes should be a general change so that both specs can benefit from them. Real problem with sDK is that it is stuck doing tank/spank more or less and tanking part has gotten progressively harder. Which is a general DK problem when it comes to PvP.

Then make Minor Maim baseline in Dark Talons.

Giving a cleanse to Stamdks is not going to make if "flatout better" than Magdks. When playing MagDK i have ways of dealing with dots, without needing a cleanse skill.

I can keep up wings for extended periods of time if needed, negating a lot of incoming projectile dots/debuffs. I can't use wings more than 2-3 times as StamDK, a single use of wings will also lock me from refreshing Spiked Armor or using Igneous Shield for Major Mending

I have a resto staff. I find Healing Ward + Mutagen to be enough to negate most DoT damage, and if things get difficult i have Panacea or Ferocious Leap shield. On my StamDK i only have Vigor and Rally. A Blood Craze alone completely negates both of them. When fighting a bleed build, Rally doesn't last long enough to make the burst heal component high enough. Even if it does, I'm probably going to die shortly after. My Stam Ultimates can't do anything about it either.

I have a much higher sustained damage, resulting in opponents having to play more defensively. Fossilize Also helps me burn through their resource pools quickly, forcing them into a position where they almost can't refresh their bleeds. Against certain builds, they literally can't keep up. As Stamdk, my sustained damage is basically non-existant. I'm forced in using Dizzying Swing, an incredibly easy skill to counter. Brawler / Claws is not even close to being enough to force an opponent to play defensively. Using a DW build means i have more sustained damage, but no way to heal myself other than Vigor and DoTs can't be kited.

When playing MagDK, dots/bleeds are the least of my concerns. My sustain is what makes me worried, not the fact i don't have a way to cleanse myself.

EDIT: Forgot to add it into the post. Burning Embers + Power Lash heal is also great to negate dots

Cleansing 3-4 DOTs for 1000 stamina would be ridiculously OP. And, no- mDKs don’t have it easy when dealing with DOT (considering that we have to be in melee range to use most of our self heals) I agree with your suggestions of making an armor and a talon morph poison based.

John_Falstaff

Plenty of discussions here since the time @Quantum_V dropped in by our campfire.

I'm still interested in having easier time bringing my designated group buff to the common table without gimping my own damage in the process. That would be in line with other classes (well granted, sorcs also have it bad way like DKs).

Quantum_V

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Plenty of discussions here since the time @Quantum_V dropped in by our campfire.

I'm still interested in having easier time bringing my designated group buff to the common table without gimping my own damage in the process. That would be in line with other classes (well granted, sorcs also have it bad way like DKs).[/

Haha, don’t worry. I’ve been reading this thread daily. There’s definately a lot of good discussion here. Keep it up!

Beffagorn

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Cleansing 3-4 DOTs for 1000 stamina would be ridiculously OP. And, no- mDKs don’t have it easy when dealing with DOT (considering that we have to be in melee range to use most of our self heals) I agree with your suggestions of making an armor and a talon morph poison based.

Extended Ritual cleanses 5 effects instantly, has a sinergy that heals and cleanses allies of all harmful effects, heals you as long as you stand inside it, slows enemies inside it by 30% and gives Minor Mending. It costs 4320Magicka, reduced to 4140 via Restoring Spirit.

On my Stamplar i can use it 3 times in a row, almost 4 with only 3 Tristats enchants. Since Restoring Focus was made into a Stam morph with Murkmire. Being the only Magicka skill on my bars means i can use it multiple times without repercussions or fear of not having enough Magicka to do something else. I can still be 100% on the offensive AND ready to dodge roll or break free.

On the other hand, using my Corrosive Shell idea 3 times in a row has multiple repercussions. It's 3k less Stam i can use to break free, Roll dodge, sprint or deal damage with. A StamDK using it too many times is going to lose pressure on the target, resulting in the opponent having an uppder hand in the fight, in addition to not having enough Stamina to spend for vital actions and generally, to keep going. Want to make it more punishing? completely remove the little amount of dmg from the poison nova so it only has a chance of applying the Poisoned Status Effect. Still think it's not enough? Make it so it only removes DoT / Damaging effects and not Debuffs or increase the cost slightly. That concept was just that...a concept.

I agree that maybe in a CP scenario it would be OP, but that's another matter entirely. CPs are an horrible mechanic for both pve and pvp that just makes balancing something incredibly difficult or almost impossible.

Ragnarock41

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Beffagorn wrote: »

Feedback about Stamdk PvP.

I feel these are the main Issues with the class:

Sustain.
Lack of Stamina Morphs
No way to cleanse ourselves of Dots/Debuffs.
Not appealing at all for any kind of group play.
Limited Kit.

Solutions:

Spiked Armor replaced by a new stamina based morph, Corrosive Shell.

Converts into a Stamina ability and deals Poison Damage. Cleanses up to 4 harmful effects from yourself. 3 seconds after the ability has been activated, you release a poison nova that deals small Poison Damage has an increased chance to apply the Poisoned status effect based on the amount of harmful effects removed. Costs 1000 Stamina.

The ability sinergizes well with the passives World in Ruin and Combustion. It directly affects 3 of weaknesses the class suffers from, and i think is in line with other similiar abilities in the game. The damage nova can also be lined up for bursts.

Choking Talons reworked into a new stamina based morph.

Converts into a Stamina Ability and deals Poison Damage. Applies minor maim. Costs 3200-3400 stamina.

A simple change that makes StamDKs more appealing in group play and expands our limited kit. shouldn't have any repercussion for PvE tanks.

Elder Dragon.

Now also increases Stamina and Magicka Recovery, by a smaller amount than Health Recovery. Increased range on instant melee attack component removed.

The range increase component never made sense to me. Neither Magdks nor Stamdks need it, imo. The increased Recovery is badly needed for both MagDKs and StamDKs

Your suggested change will take away the only source of Minor Maim for mDK and flatout a lot better than mDK with that cleanse suggestion. DK changes should be a general change so that both specs can benefit from them. Real problem with sDK is that it is stuck doing tank/spank more or less and tanking part has gotten progressively harder. Which is a general DK problem when it comes to PvP.

Magicka Dk has:

2 morphs of talons,
2 morphs of whip,
2 morphs of inhale,
many class based heals,(embers, cauterize, etc)
2 morphs of spiked armor(again , no poison spikes cause ''muh benefits''? ),
two morphs of ground aoes,
two morphs of dragon blood.....
???
Profit.


I can't see the ''both specs benefit'' part yet? care to show me?

Oh wait, right... flames of oblivion. Shifting standart.

magic damage on a stamina character. Very, very beneficial and totally not magicka biased.

Edit: seriously though, will we ever get poison damage on some of those stuff?

IZZEFlameLash

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Beffagorn wrote: »

Feedback about Stamdk PvP.

I feel these are the main Issues with the class:

Sustain.
Lack of Stamina Morphs
No way to cleanse ourselves of Dots/Debuffs.
Not appealing at all for any kind of group play.
Limited Kit.

Solutions:

Spiked Armor replaced by a new stamina based morph, Corrosive Shell.

Converts into a Stamina ability and deals Poison Damage. Cleanses up to 4 harmful effects from yourself. 3 seconds after the ability has been activated, you release a poison nova that deals small Poison Damage has an increased chance to apply the Poisoned status effect based on the amount of harmful effects removed. Costs 1000 Stamina.

The ability sinergizes well with the passives World in Ruin and Combustion. It directly affects 3 of weaknesses the class suffers from, and i think is in line with other similiar abilities in the game. The damage nova can also be lined up for bursts.

Choking Talons reworked into a new stamina based morph.

Converts into a Stamina Ability and deals Poison Damage. Applies minor maim. Costs 3200-3400 stamina.

A simple change that makes StamDKs more appealing in group play and expands our limited kit. shouldn't have any repercussion for PvE tanks.

Elder Dragon.

Now also increases Stamina and Magicka Recovery, by a smaller amount than Health Recovery. Increased range on instant melee attack component removed.

The range increase component never made sense to me. Neither Magdks nor Stamdks need it, imo. The increased Recovery is badly needed for both MagDKs and StamDKs

Your suggested change will take away the only source of Minor Maim for mDK and flatout a lot better than mDK with that cleanse suggestion. DK changes should be a general change so that both specs can benefit from them. Real problem with sDK is that it is stuck doing tank/spank more or less and tanking part has gotten progressively harder. Which is a general DK problem when it comes to PvP.

Magicka Dk has:

2 morphs of talons,
2 morphs of whip,
2 morphs of inhale,
many class based heals,(embers, cauterize,
2 morphs of spiked armor(again , no poison spikes cause ''muh benefits''? ),
two morphs of ground aoes,
two morphs of dragon blood.....
???
Profit.


I can't see the ''both specs benefit'' part yet? care to show me?

Oh wait, right... flames of oblivion. Shifting standart.

magic damage on a stamina character. Very, very beneficial and totally not magicka biased.

Edit: seriously though, will we ever get poison damage on some of those stuff?

Magicka DK has

No access to Minor Heroism + Minor Maim. It has no Minor Maim source other than Talons.
Only 2 big heals in the arsenal and they require enemy to be hit and and one also require it not cleansed off.
Skill costs far exceeding that of StamDK.
Dragonblood that heals for almost nothing when defiled and is a waste of magicka.

But then, why are you trying to attack me again? All I am literally saying is that DK changes should carry both specs in mind instead of heavily making one spec of class overpowered by giving everything a DK of both specs need. I never understood your combative tone. I understand StamDKs could use more morphs but robbing one spec from already struggling class is not the way to go. That is why changes need to be accounted for both specs.

Ragnarock41

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Beffagorn wrote: »

Feedback about Stamdk PvP.

I feel these are the main Issues with the class:

Sustain.
Lack of Stamina Morphs
No way to cleanse ourselves of Dots/Debuffs.
Not appealing at all for any kind of group play.
Limited Kit.

Solutions:

Spiked Armor replaced by a new stamina based morph, Corrosive Shell.

Converts into a Stamina ability and deals Poison Damage. Cleanses up to 4 harmful effects from yourself. 3 seconds after the ability has been activated, you release a poison nova that deals small Poison Damage has an increased chance to apply the Poisoned status effect based on the amount of harmful effects removed. Costs 1000 Stamina.

The ability sinergizes well with the passives World in Ruin and Combustion. It directly affects 3 of weaknesses the class suffers from, and i think is in line with other similiar abilities in the game. The damage nova can also be lined up for bursts.

Choking Talons reworked into a new stamina based morph.

Converts into a Stamina Ability and deals Poison Damage. Applies minor maim. Costs 3200-3400 stamina.

A simple change that makes StamDKs more appealing in group play and expands our limited kit. shouldn't have any repercussion for PvE tanks.

Elder Dragon.

Now also increases Stamina and Magicka Recovery, by a smaller amount than Health Recovery. Increased range on instant melee attack component removed.

The range increase component never made sense to me. Neither Magdks nor Stamdks need it, imo. The increased Recovery is badly needed for both MagDKs and StamDKs

Your suggested change will take away the only source of Minor Maim for mDK and flatout a lot better than mDK with that cleanse suggestion. DK changes should be a general change so that both specs can benefit from them. Real problem with sDK is that it is stuck doing tank/spank more or less and tanking part has gotten progressively harder. Which is a general DK problem when it comes to PvP.

Magicka Dk has:

2 morphs of talons,
2 morphs of whip,
2 morphs of inhale,
many class based heals,(embers, cauterize,
2 morphs of spiked armor(again , no poison spikes cause ''muh benefits''? ),
two morphs of ground aoes,
two morphs of dragon blood.....
???
Profit.


I can't see the ''both specs benefit'' part yet? care to show me?

Oh wait, right... flames of oblivion. Shifting standart.

magic damage on a stamina character. Very, very beneficial and totally not magicka biased.

Edit: seriously though, will we ever get poison damage on some of those stuff?

Magicka DK has

No access to Minor Heroism + Minor Maim. It has no Minor Maim source other than Talons.
Only 2 big heals in the arsenal and they require enemy to be hit and and one also require it not cleansed off.
Skill costs far exceeding that of StamDK.
Dragonblood that heals for almost nothing when defiled and is a waste of magicka.

But then, why are you trying to attack me again? All I am literally saying is that DK changes should carry both specs in mind instead of heavily making one spec of class overpowered by giving everything a DK of both specs need. I never understood your combative tone. I understand StamDKs could use more morphs but robbing one spec from already struggling class is not the way to go. That is why changes need to be accounted for both specs.

I'm not ''attacking'' you. I'm coming to you with a solid point I believe , I don't have a reason to get personal with you, I will not gain anything from it.

I think your logic while saying ''Dks should get changes that benefit both stam and mag'' was flawed , which I will explain down here, but before that, you're directly comparing stamina to magicka in your argument which is also flawed aswell. Stamina classes all get lesser ability costs, thats a perk of playing stamina, not something special to Dk.

I believe my point is very obvious and clear when out of 30 morphs, stamina Dk only gets 2 that are truly meant for them. Obviously this is also the case for stamsorcs and stamplars, but they get some actual utility tools that are meant for them and built around their needs, unlike sDk that has to use the overpriced magicka tools meant for magicka Dks or tank Dks. Like igneous shield or green dragon blood.

Tools that are clearly meant for tank DKs.

or FoO and shifting standart, tools that are meant for magDks mainly.

Also FYI I couldn't care less about your precious talons right now dude.I'm not even the one asking for the talons change as you can see. Seriously, you're missing the point completely. Its not about talons, Its about the general direction of class favoring magicka way harder than stamina.

I only wanted to make a point. And that point is you can't expect to have everything and call it ''beneficial for both sides''.

Nser

@ZOS_Wrobel

SaintSubwayy

BxBourne wrote: »

1. We need to be able to execute.
So my solution/idea will be not to give us an execute ability per se but reward us by giving certain abilities the ability to execute. So for example if I manage to get your health down to execute range decrease the cost of certain abilities and or increase it's damage so I can finish off the opponent. And Or increase my ult generation or the damage my ult does the longer I stay alive in a fight. Therefore we get rewarded for doing things right and still keep the DK identity. It's way too hard to finish off a player as a mag dk you whether die fast or die after a 10 min fight, finishing is too tough. Look at all the assist a mag dk gets bg's that says it all.

2. Sustaining magic and health is tough.
I think we can improve sustaining on a dk by improving certain passives and that way we still keep our identity . Dk passives just don't reward us enough for the hard work to stay alive or finish the fight.

To you 2nd Point I can jsut say that the DK sustain in PVE is good as it is right now, not too strong but not as bad as sorcs.

Your first Point sounds nice, however they need to adress the IMO weakest passive in this game => Warmth

Seriously this passive is so weak, yes its nice to gain a slow, but it only lasts 3 second, and only applies via direct dmg from an ardent flame ability.

The new passive may look something like this:
When dealing Damage with an ardent Flame ability to an enemy below 25% health you deal up to 5/10% more damage.
When the enemy is a PLayer he will also be slowed for 70% for 4 Seconds.

Beffagorn

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Magicka DK has

No access to Minor Heroism + Minor Maim. It has no Minor Maim source other than Talons.
Only 2 big heals in the arsenal and they require enemy to be hit and and one also require it not cleansed off.
Skill costs far exceeding that of StamDK.
Dragonblood that heals for almost nothing when defiled and is a waste of magicka.

StamDKs do not have access to Minor Heroism or Minor Heroism+Minor Maim unless they slot in Carve or Heroic Slash.

Carve is garbage in most cases. High stamina cost, low instant damage, low dot damage. Brawler is a much better morph 99% of the time.

Most Stamdks do not slot in Heroic Slash because they use DW-2h bleed builds. or DW-bow bleed builds. It's the only way to make a Stamdk barely viable. Sure, you can use a 2h - SnB or DW - SnB build...but what is the point? That build is subpar when used on a Stamdk compared to any other class in the game. Just roll a Stamwarden if you want to use that build

MagDKs have access to Talons for Minor Maim, an excellent skill for ALL kinds of content in the game. From PvE Tanking to Cyrodil, to Battlegrounds. It's one of the most versatile skills in the entire game, across all classes.

Stamina skills have always costed less than Magicka abilities, since you also need it to roll, break free, block and sprint.

The entire point of Defile is to reduce healing. Every healing skill in the game heals for basically nothing or is greatly reduced when you have a Major Defile on you. It's not something special to MagDKs. Besides that, not every build can have access to Defile.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

All I am literally saying is that DK changes should carry both specs in mind instead of heavily making one spec of class overpowered by giving everything a DK of both specs need. I never understood your combative tone. I understand StamDKs could use more morphs but robbing one spec from already struggling class is not the way to go. That is why changes need to be accounted for both specs.

You say that changes should carry both specs in mind (BTW, the change to Elder Dragon in my earlier post touches directly on what i feel is Magdk main problem, Stam and Magicka recovery) Yet out of 30 morphs in the entire class, only 2 are Stamina morphs. One of which is bugged/clunky.

If you think MagDKs are a struggling class...Then you REALLY underestimate the strenght of Fossilize and Talons. Those 2 can negate multiple opponents almost entirely.

Nothing is being taken away from MagDKs. The class will still be able to perform their role perfectly fine (Even better with the change to Elder Dragon) without one Talon Morph and 1 Armor morph. On the other hand, StamDKs will get 2 morphs that lift the class from joke status to decent/good status.

Xvorg

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Beffagorn wrote: »

Feedback about Stamdk PvP.

I feel these are the main Issues with the class:

Sustain.
Lack of Stamina Morphs
No way to cleanse ourselves of Dots/Debuffs.
Not appealing at all for any kind of group play.
Limited Kit.

Solutions:

Spiked Armor replaced by a new stamina based morph, Corrosive Shell.

Converts into a Stamina ability and deals Poison Damage. Cleanses up to 4 harmful effects from yourself. 3 seconds after the ability has been activated, you release a poison nova that deals small Poison Damage has an increased chance to apply the Poisoned status effect based on the amount of harmful effects removed. Costs 1000 Stamina.

The ability sinergizes well with the passives World in Ruin and Combustion. It directly affects 3 of weaknesses the class suffers from, and i think is in line with other similiar abilities in the game. The damage nova can also be lined up for bursts.

Choking Talons reworked into a new stamina based morph.

Converts into a Stamina Ability and deals Poison Damage. Applies minor maim. Costs 3200-3400 stamina.

A simple change that makes StamDKs more appealing in group play and expands our limited kit. shouldn't have any repercussion for PvE tanks.

Elder Dragon.

Now also increases Stamina and Magicka Recovery, by a smaller amount than Health Recovery. Increased range on instant melee attack component removed.

The range increase component never made sense to me. Neither Magdks nor Stamdks need it, imo. The increased Recovery is badly needed for both MagDKs and StamDKs

Your suggested change will take away the only source of Minor Maim for mDK and flatout a lot better than mDK with that cleanse suggestion. DK changes should be a general change so that both specs can benefit from them. Real problem with sDK is that it is stuck doing tank/spank more or less and tanking part has gotten progressively harder. Which is a general DK problem when it comes to PvP.

Magicka Dk has:

2 morphs of talons,
2 morphs of whip,
2 morphs of inhale,
many class based heals,(embers, cauterize, etc)
2 morphs of spiked armor(again , no poison spikes cause ''muh benefits''? ),
two morphs of ground aoes,
two morphs of dragon blood.....
???
Profit.


I can't see the ''both specs benefit'' part yet? care to show me?

Oh wait, right... flames of oblivion. Shifting standart.

magic damage on a stamina character. Very, very beneficial and totally not magicka biased.

Edit: seriously though, will we ever get poison damage on some of those stuff?

Any of those skills makes mDK better than sDK?

mDK has no access to decent blocking except for the ice staff joke and lacks all those worderful sets sDK can use. So the thing is more or less the same, both specs are fuckingly ***

edit: we should avoid fighting each other, it is not a sDK vs mDK issue... the enemy is ZoS, not us.

IZZEFlameLash

Beffagorn wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Magicka DK has

No access to Minor Heroism + Minor Maim. It has no Minor Maim source other than Talons.
Only 2 big heals in the arsenal and they require enemy to be hit and and one also require it not cleansed off.
Skill costs far exceeding that of StamDK.
Dragonblood that heals for almost nothing when defiled and is a waste of magicka.

StamDKs do not have access to Minor Heroism or Minor Heroism+Minor Maim unless they slot in Carve or Heroic Slash.

Carve is garbage in most cases. High stamina cost, low instant damage, low dot damage. Brawler is a much better morph 99% of the time.

Most Stamdks do not slot in Heroic Slash because they use DW-2h bleed builds. or DW-bow bleed builds. It's the only way to make a Stamdk barely viable. Sure, you can use a 2h - SnB or DW - SnB build...but what is the point? That build is subpar when used on a Stamdk compared to any other class in the game. Just roll a Stamwarden if you want to use that build

MagDKs have access to Talons for Minor Maim, an excellent skill for ALL kinds of content in the game. From PvE Tanking to Cyrodil, to Battlegrounds. It's one of the most versatile skills in the entire game, across all classes.

Stamina skills have always costed less than Magicka abilities, since you also need it to roll, break free, block and sprint.

The entire point of Defile is to reduce healing. Every healing skill in the game heals for basically nothing or is greatly reduced when you have a Major Defile on you. It's not something special to MagDKs. Besides that, not every build can have access to Defile.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

All I am literally saying is that DK changes should carry both specs in mind instead of heavily making one spec of class overpowered by giving everything a DK of both specs need. I never understood your combative tone. I understand StamDKs could use more morphs but robbing one spec from already struggling class is not the way to go. That is why changes need to be accounted for both specs.

You say that changes should carry both specs in mind (BTW, the change to Elder Dragon in my earlier post touches directly on what i feel is Magdk main problem, Stam and Magicka recovery) Yet out of 30 morphs in the entire class, only 2 are Stamina morphs. One of which is bugged/clunky.

If you think MagDKs are a struggling class...Then you REALLY underestimate the strenght of Fossilize and Talons. Those 2 can negate multiple opponents almost entirely.

Nothing is being taken away from MagDKs. The class will still be able to perform their role perfectly fine (Even better with the change to Elder Dragon) without one Talon Morph and 1 Armor morph. On the other hand, StamDKs will get 2 morphs that lift the class from joke status to decent/good status.

Did I not make myself clear that it sucks to have 3 morphs only or so when I said 'I understand that it needs more morphs'? It sucks but your suggestion DOES take the only reliable source of Minor Maim for mDKs when mDK is basically funneled into using LA. MDK IS struggling. You know why? Because it is a DK. DK has been struggling for a while except for Stam for few patches before (mostly due to broken sets). This is precisely why we should be fighting for general DK changes.

Beffagorn

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Did I not make myself clear that it sucks to have 3 morphs only or so when I said 'I understand that it needs more morphs'? It sucks but your suggestion DOES take the only reliable source of Minor Maim for mDKs when mDK is basically funneled into using LA. MDK IS struggling. You know why? Because it is a DK. DK has been struggling for a while except for Stam for few patches before (mostly due to broken sets). This is precisely why we should be fighting for general DK changes.

Did i not make myself clear that if you really think magDKs NEED Minor Maim, it could just simply be added to baseline
Talons?

Beffagorn wrote: »

Then make Minor Maim baseline in Dark Talons.

Or instead, convert the other morph to Stam. Either way, someone is going to be pissed and accuse me about taking things away from them...Well guess what, if StamDK is to stop being a joke, MagDK has to lose a couple morphs simply due to the fact that the ENTIRE kit is Magicka

Personally, i've never felt "funneled into using LA" on my MagDK. I've been running full heavy 2Skoria - 5 Shacklebreaker 5
Burning Spellweave SnB - Ice Staff (For Ele Drain and to block) recently and i'm having great success with it. Bleeds are problematic, but it's to be expected when you're running HA and no Resto Staff.

You think MagDK is struggling, i think it's not (Certainly nowhere near as bad as you make it sound) but that's perfectly fine. But then you just say it is struggling "Because it is a DK".

You're not even presenting an argument. It would be better if you elaborate on why you feel MagDK is struggling, instead of writing statements that are completely void of any value.

kojou

I would like to see the magic return on burning status increased or the cooldown decreased. It is not giving very much magicka and Magicka DK sustain in PVE is still terrible.

Flame_of_Hades

DK is not struggling due to any weakness in its abilities, except the the lack of an execute.. (PVP perspective)

The real problem is that other classes take what dk can do, and they do it better.

Mag Templar --> tanks better, provides better group utility with purges/BoL

Stamina Templar --> better burst, better mobility

Mag NightBlade --> higher sustained damage, ranged, mobility is better. (prob weaker over all, due to nerfmire, but i haven't re-geared my mag blade in a while, so idk.)

Stam NightBlade --> Higher burst damage, mobility is better

Mag Sorcerer --> Execute. Execute. Execute. better mobility, better burst.

Stam Sorcerer --> not much here, after nerfmire, but i believe that sustain is still better due to dark deal,ish.

Stam Warden --> better a.o.e burst, better magicka heals (really zos, really?).

Mag Warden --> best heals, VERY high group utility with perma frost/northern storm/corrupting pollen.

Bleeds --> better dot damage than the dot/control class.. and half are passive...

What is dk left with? cc? have fun catching someone in your talons, due to the snare meta EVERYONE has a way to get immobilization off. fossilize is by far the best skill DK has, only matched by MAYBE burning embers, but NB fear is almost as good, and it is a.o.e.

I do not think that the devs really know where they want dk to go.

Putting group heals in the dk tool kit? almost useless.

Stand your ground has been nerfed into the ground, so that is out.

Bleeds give better Dot damage....

Giving wings a morph that removed snares was a good start, but only mag dk can really take advantage of it, and "hey, i removed the snares! now ill just sprint away! o wait..."

The buff to Cinder Storm/ Eruption was welcome, but i still NEVER see them used, except on my setup, which I don't see alot of people even attempt. (stacking as many HoTs as i can, using hist sap).

How to fix? Dk was built around dynamic ulti gen. This was undeniably broken early in the game, with dks having infinite resources due to getting the ability to almost spam ults, but without high ult gen, dk lacks the damage/sustain it NEEDS to get the kill. I propose that Eruption is changed so that the damage is reverted to pre-buff levels, but that it gives 1 ultimate for every enemy damaged, per tick.

That way, Dk does not have the same ulti gen as when dynamic ult gen was a thing, but they gain their ult faster than most classes, so they can get the damage and sustain they need in this movement and burst meta.

Adeshal

DK class became pretty hard to play after Battle Roar/Major Mendin nerf. In the old days DK was godly in PvP, because of classes’ easy access to almost permanent Major Mending buff and insane amounts of sustain from Battle Roar using Max Stats builds. Right now it's much harder to play DK then before, but I think that people are crying too much about that. I was always trying to avoid the official forum because most of you prefer CP campaigns which, for me, are way to easy and effortless. Sustain with proper CP distribution is insane and playing 1vX is soo childish. You SHOULD die when you're facing 2 good players, and you're solo... Taking gear into consideration I can add, that there is much more diversity in nonCP campaigns.

I will not talk about magicka DK (directly), because last time I played magicka was in 2014. In my opinion Stamina DK has access to:
*One of the best single target CC = Fossilize.
*Ultimate, which can counter every Heavy Armor build = Corrosive Armor.
*Great and cheap burst ultimate (with long animation tho) = Take Flight.
*Awesome anti-range ability with snare removal = Reflective Plate.
*Poisonus DoTs = Noxious Breath/Venomous Claw.
The major problem with the DK is, that this class is built around Battle Roar, to get your ultimate as soon as possible and use it to get your resources back. After the nerf it's pretty hard to compete with other classes, but with properly set up DK it still is a beast (Master DW + DKs DoTs)!
What could be done to make DK better again:
*Make stamina morph of Whip for better builds diversity.
*Flames of Oblivion should deal Poisonus Damage.
*Ash Cloud should be reworked, because it's rarely used in any content.

I really enjoy playing as DK and I never moved away from this class. The problem is that after the nerf it's hard to buff DK properly. Every major change could get DK above other classes like it was before. Let's be honest – this class was the beast DPS before the nerf. Awesome sustain with terrifying damage.

John_Falstaff

@Adeshal , I'm not PvP sort, but I think that the list above is a bit... idealized. Say, plate is a magicka skill, it costs 4k magicka (half of stamina DK's magicka pool) and lasts six seconds, I'm not sure what it's even doing in that list. ^^

Adeshal

With Primatic Defense glyphs you can increase your magicka pool pretty easly. I know that you can't spam Reflective Plate on stamina build, but with proper gameplay you can use it often enough, to make range characters (especially Crystal Frag/Snipe users) cry.

Beffagorn

Adeshal wrote: »

I will not talk about magicka DK (directly), because last time I played magicka was in 2014. In my opinion Stamina DK has access to:
*One of the best single target CC = Fossilize.
*Ultimate, which can counter every Heavy Armor build = Corrosive Armor.
*Great and cheap burst ultimate (with long animation tho) = Take Flight.
*Awesome anti-range ability with snare removal = Reflective Plate.
*Poisonus DoTs = Noxious Breath/Venomous Claw.
The major problem with the DK is, that this class is built around Battle Roar, to get your ultimate as soon as possible and use it to get your resources back. After the nerf it's pretty hard to compete with other classes, but with properly set up DK it still is a beast (Master DW + DKs DoTs)!
What could be done to make DK better again:
*Make stamina morph of Whip for better builds diversity.
*Flames of Oblivion should deal Poisonus Damage.
*Ash Cloud should be reworked, because it's rarely used in any content.

I really enjoy playing as DK and I never moved away from this class. The problem is that after the nerf it's hard to buff DK properly. Every major change could get DK above other classes like it was before. Let's be honest – this class was the beast DPS before the nerf. Awesome sustain with terrifying damage.

I'm also a No-CP player and i completely agree with you.

Fossilize by itself is a great skill, but a Stamdk can't exploit it to the fullest. Not enough sustained pressure to make it worthwile, no Power Lash, high Magicka cost. It works with Bleed DW builds, but that's because bleeds are overperforming.

Corrosive Armor is powerful, probably one of the best Ultimates ingame. But unless you're in a premade group, the high cost breaks the synergy with Battle Roar by not activating it enough, resulting in the ability to not be worth slotting. It's a good oh-shiet button, but Leap or Dawnbreaker are just too much more versatile.

Reflective plate. Its cost is too high for a Stamdk to use effectively. Use it 2 times and you're out of Magicka for Shield = no Major Mending.

Noxious breath is bugged (Or the cone too small) and the damage too low. If you really want Breach/Fracture, Piece Armor is superior in every way. SnB also gives you access to Reverb Bash, if you can slot it. Venomous Claw is super cheap but it barely tickles, procs Combustion, that's it. The only 2 Stamina Morphs...both terrible.

I don't think your solutions are going to work.

A Stamina whip morph is not going to solve anything. We do not have passives like Burning Light, Spear Wall, Shadow Barrier to make a stam whip strong. It would either be overperforming or bad.

Many MagDKs would rather die than lose FoB. Expert Hunter would be superior to it anyway. Crappy stealth reveal + Slayer Passive instead of passive crap damage and no slayer

I've found Ash Cloud to be decent in Battlegrounds, tried both morphs and they're okay. It's just too situational. The skill should just be replaced imo

Adeshal

Flames of Oblivion gives you both Major Critical buffs. Second morph (Cauterize) could be reworked to grants Major Savagery, so FoB could be pure magicka then.

I agree with high cost of Reflective Plate, but it's less than cost of Igneous Shield/Fragmented Shield. Problem's that stamina DK can use it only as counter ability, because he has no magicka to get high uptime on this ability. For Open World/Battlegrounds I prefer to use Reflection instead of Major Mending, but it depends on you.

SaintSubwayy

kojou wrote: »

I would like to see the magic return on burning status increased or the cooldown decreased. It is not giving very much magicka and Magicka DK sustain in PVE is still terrible.

No its not.
If you cannot sustain a magfk in pve then youre doing something wrong

FYI:
3mio dummy is doable with 5-6k magicka left

6mio dummy cant be sustained by any magicka class

If you cant sustain your mgdk is a raid well thats a problem of your groupsetup then (no worm, not enough synergies or bad eledrain uptime)

If you cant sustain solo, (no insult) you just dont deal enough dmg...srsly addgroups ndarly instarip if you throw blockade + eruption on them.

I think the only thing magdk need for PVE do deal more dmg to bring it in line with stam. Since ot uses a meele spot.
Kow magdk is arround 10k ST dmg behind stam, this gap needs to be closed.

Just tey a magsorc for once....then you wil see what bad sustain really is.
Not beeing able to kill a 3mio summy without HA and absorb enchat...well thats terrible

JasonWangTaiwan

Yeah DK are now being replaced by other class now,mag or stam.
In pvp I felt playing DK is really boring since other class create much more impact then you.
Feeling frustrated for the identity of dk and still got stupid “buff”.

kojou

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

I would like to see the magic return on burning status increased or the cooldown decreased. It is not giving very much magicka and Magicka DK sustain in PVE is still terrible.

No its not.
If you cannot sustain a magfk in pve then youre doing something wrong

FYI:
3mio dummy is doable with 5-6k magicka left

6mio dummy cant be sustained by any magicka class

If you cant sustain your mgdk is a raid well thats a problem of your groupsetup then (no worm, not enough synergies or bad eledrain uptime)

If you cant sustain solo, (no insult) you just dont deal enough dmg...srsly addgroups ndarly instarip if you throw blockade + eruption on them.

I think the only thing magdk need for PVE do deal more dmg to bring it in line with stam. Since ot uses a meele spot.
Kow magdk is arround 10k ST dmg behind stam, this gap needs to be closed.

Just tey a magsorc for once....then you wil see what bad sustain really is.
Not beeing able to kill a 3mio summy without HA and absorb enchat...well thats terrible

First of all if you want to leave your feedback about Sorc sustain do it in the Sorc channel it isn't relevant here. Sorc is ranged, Magicka DK isn't and its an apples and oranges comparison.

Second of all it is my opinion based on my assessment of the class post Murkmire. Your opinion may be different and that is fine, but it is my opinion and I am allowed to have it and just because you disagree with it doesn't make it wrong.

And thirdly, I didn't say that I don't know how to sustain a 3m/6m/raid etc parse (I can), but the extra heavy attacks and uses of Spell Symmetry lowers my overall DPS which to your point makes it so I can't compete well with Stamina builds that don't have to heavy attack as much or use Spell Symmetry. Even if they do heavy attack the heavy attack is so much quicker they don't lose nearly as much DPS.

So my opinion and conclusion remains that Magicka DK sustain is terrible and needs to be looked at.

Xvorg

Adeshal wrote: »

DK class became pretty hard to play after Battle Roar/Major Mendin nerf. In the old days DK was godly in PvP, because of classes’ easy access to almost permanent Major Mending buff and insane amounts of sustain from Battle Roar using Max Stats builds. Right now it's much harder to play DK then before, but I think that people are crying too much about that. I was always trying to avoid the official forum because most of you prefer CP campaigns which, for me, are way to easy and effortless. Sustain with proper CP distribution is insane and playing 1vX is soo childish. You SHOULD die when you're facing 2 good players, and you're solo... Taking gear into consideration I can add, that there is much more diversity in nonCP campaigns.

I will not talk about magicka DK (directly), because last time I played magicka was in 2014. In my opinion Stamina DK has access to:
*One of the best single target CC = Fossilize.
*Ultimate, which can counter every Heavy Armor build = Corrosive Armor.
*Great and cheap burst ultimate (with long animation tho) = Take Flight.
*Awesome anti-range ability with snare removal = Reflective Plate.
*Poisonus DoTs = Noxious Breath/Venomous Claw.
The major problem with the DK is, that this class is built around Battle Roar, to get your ultimate as soon as possible and use it to get your resources back. After the nerf it's pretty hard to compete with other classes, but with properly set up DK it still is a beast (Master DW + DKs DoTs)!
What could be done to make DK better again:
*Make stamina morph of Whip for better builds diversity.
*Flames of Oblivion should deal Poisonus Damage.
*Ash Cloud should be reworked, because it's rarely used in any content.

I really enjoy playing as DK and I never moved away from this class. The problem is that after the nerf it's hard to buff DK properly. Every major change could get DK above other classes like it was before. Let's be honest – this class was the beast DPS before the nerf. Awesome sustain with terrifying damage.

Foss: OK. Great skill but overnerfed by IDK why. It was OK when it was a 15 mts skill, it gave DK some utility in a group.

Corrosive armor: While the concept is great, the problem is that building towards penetration rends that skill useless. Even moar, 2H ulti is a high hitting ulti that ignores mitigation. Since sDKs do not have natural burst skills, your chances are spamming Dizz swing or snipe while using corrosive (You cannot pair it neither with leap nor with DBoS). Besides, despite the dmg you can do with corrosive, you cannot bypass battle spirit, so even with that, you are doing max 50% of the dmg you should.

Leap: One of the most unreliable ultis. You can avoid it just by walking away the dmg area. There are a couple of pages discussing that. I know, it looks cool and I love it, but by no mean it's better than DBoS

DoTs. Claw is weak, it should have a buff. Breath it's just bad. The dmg you do with it is peanuts compared to bleeds, it cannot be reliable fired, the cone dmg area it's not well defined

Regarding DoTs: there is nothing in the DK set that support DoTs, just some weak DoTs such as claw or breath. You will do it way better with a stamplar, that also has DoTs (their main spammable is a dot) + jabs proc twin blade and blunt or it used to do it last time I checked + burning light passive that adds extra dmg each 4 jabs; or a Stamblade which have extra crit dmg and the chance of minor savagery on any critical strike increasing it's crit chances even more. So, both spec, can use DoTs much better than sDK.
Don't buy what people say, DK is not the DoT class. If you don't believe me, just try those specs and you will see it for yourself.

Stamwhip: No, bad idea. Whip is currently bad on magDK. It used to be a great skill, but now it's just a meme of its former glory. Besides it doesn't support the DoT playing style because it is a burts skill, the only melee burst skill mDKs have access. sDK have access to some burst skills in the 2H, s/b and DW (one) lines. On top of that, no passive in the ardent flame line synergyzes with whip. Do you really want a sDK running around with a skill that is not even supported by the passives in its own line?

FoO: Currently deals flame dmg and escalates with the higher value of weapon/stam or spell/magicka. It won't do much more dmg than a 15% extra in CP campaigns, proven you put 100 points into elemental expert, though people usually just put 43 poits to get 10% extra dmg, wihich is nothing due to BS. I don't see how that change will help sDKs. You had a bad skill, and you will get the same bad skill, but green. It needs a major rework.

Ash Cloud is one of the best skills for DKs now. Eruption deal decent dmg after the changes this patch, while Cinder storm is a must in any DK healer build, it is an Illustrious Healing (the morph of Grand Healing) that last 15 secs instead of 4. If improving DK implies nerfing DK healers, then don't count on me.

DK as class needs a major rework, not some little tweaks and band aids. That major rework starts with rebuilding the concept behind the class. Is it a DoT class? Then its DoTs should be meaningful and not a thing you have to spam to get resources back. Is it the "Stay your ground class"? Then give DKs a castle and not a rock sustained on a stick, currently templar do have that castle , they get extra resources and mitigation just standing on rune, and minor protection just spamming jabs. Can DK have major expedition in a skill different fromn a gap closer? It's just stupid, why would you use a gap closer to get major expedition? To dance around the enemy or to run away from him?

To me DK is the knight of ESO, but currently is far from that concept and I doubt it will ever have it back again. I mean, why would a knight use poisons? That's more on the rogue archetype.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Tldr: is Stam DK better or worse after Murkmire?

Adeshal

He's on same position as he was before Murkmire. I play with DoT build (+Bleeding) on nonCP campaign and it's really strong concept. Problem's that Some builds will work on nonCP, other will be better for CP. It would be much easier to balance classes if CP would be disabled from PvP content.

Zekka

Talking strictly about PvP: both stamdk and stamsorc need a decent spammable, something they would have if ZOS finally listened and made wrecking blow an instant cast and lowered its damage to the level of surprise attack.
What would be better than a stamwhip is a big damage ability to make stamdks able to burst people and seal fights, stamdens have subterranean assault, stamplars have power of the light, stamblades have merciless resolve, stamdks have venomous claws a dot outshone by rending slashes...

The best way to do it would be to convert Obsidian Shards from the Earthen Heart skill line into a physical AoE damage ability, something like:

Earthquake (Stonefist morph)
[x] stamina
Radius: 5 meters
Pound the ground with draconic strength, earth erupts at the impact point after 3 seconds, dealing [x] physical damage to enemies in the area of effect. Damaged enemies are stunned for 2 seconds.

Cost should be at least 1k stam higher than Sub Assault due to the Helping Hands passive, damage around the same. It would bring back a bit of the "stand your ground" playstyle and it would finally give stamdks an ability to trigger the Moutain's Blessing passive that isn't Obsidian Shield.

Passive wise, make the damage increase part of World in Ruin affect physical damage and make Battle Roar work like Balorgh set, ressources return based on the amount of ultimate consumed and not used.

Sleep724

Seems too similar to sub assault and Zos doesn’t want high damage skills that stun anymore.