Meteor + Rune Cage/Petrify/Aspect of Terror Combination Needs to be Looked At

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

For me anything that streaks around and spams shields looks the same, there's virtually no difference in the playstyle employed.

Meanwhile a bowblade for example plays vastly different to the typical 2H/Bow Incap Relentless rollerblade by utilizing entirely different skill combinations and prioritizing kiting & stealth to spamming dodge rolls/surprise attacks.

My DW/Bow (DW/DW occasionally) melee build is also very different since it never uses Incap->Relentless & doesn't spam dodge roll (instead utilizing DW heavy attack weaves just to sustain with 1,2k stam regen).

I actually meet a lot of nbs in cyrodiil that try to snipe me or run bow/dw builds.
So your builds would actually be just a typical NB build if i were to approach the topic as shallow as you do with sorcs. Cloaks, snipes, has two knives and attacks from invisibility => typical nightblade.
There is virtually no difference in playstyle recognizeable for me on the receiving end.

But you don't only meet those NBs, do you? Because if you do you're playing a different Cyrodiil than I am.

The Cyrodiil I'm playing is filled with rollerblades rolling around 24/7 with a 2H Axe & they don't snipe, they use Poison Injection. They also don't use cloak for anything but running away or regaining stamina.

Sure, there are some zerg snipers as well (and very, very, very few people playing an actual good bow build), but that's already two very different playstyles you're facing.


With sorcs it's one playstyle you meet over and over again: spam shields & burst.


That's something ZOS needs to address.

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

They truly are.

Why do you think Youtube/Twitch are filled with magicka sorcs all playing more or less the same build, where as you'll really have to struggle to find even one person playing a bow build for example?

Players gravitate towards easy, that's why you see shield stackers, megatanks & infinite regen rollerblades everywhere.


Previous patch I would've said rollerblade was the easiest class in the game to play, but that honor has to go to sorcs now with the I-Win Cage existing & sending those infinite regen rollerblades to respawn at the nearest keep as well.

No. People gravitate towards playable.

I can assure you my bow build for example is very playable (even with Rune Cage harming it a lot currently, thank god the infinite CC immunity to Rune Cage/Fossilize bug carried over from PTS), yet it isn't meta.

Why? Because it isn't easy to play.

I have played it (admittedly an imo improved version). It´s not harder or easier to play than my sorc (maybe harder to stay alive this patch) and easier than nongank magblade. It just has a smaller margin of pvp scenarios where its effective.
People gravitate to universially playable builds not one that excell in niche scenarios.
Just because it´s less effective overall does not mean it´s harder to play.

If you think it's less effective than meta stamblade build then I doubt you're playing an "improved version" because the build I play gets more kills in a 1vX scenario than a meta rollerblade & it gets those kills twice as fast.

Best part? It's effective in every PvP scenario because you can actually pick your kills from stealth (and then hope you don't get Rune Caged before you can become invisible again).


The only caveat is that you can't make any mistakes at all while playing it (especially in 1vX). First mistake=dead.


So yes, it's harder to play unless you're only ganking some low levels riding between keeps. I think too many people only see these types of builds in 1v1 gank scenarios & don't consider the 1vX or XvX at all.

DDuke

cpuScientist wrote: »

Ok so then may I suggest not going tank build but maybe adding a touch of health? Just like EVERYONE is quite happy about sloads just anhilating sorcs going through shields and what not. And now we have to get heals and the like on our bar.

TWEAK your build up the pitiful rune cage damage is enough to just put you into execute either add health or resists. Maybe tri stat on some body pieces. Maybe ad d a few attribute into health. Maybe shuffle some cp around.

But truly all I can afford to do to the average nightblade is metoer cage, if I try to apply curse that fails. If I try to frag after they are alrwat in dodge to get out of that aoet and back in stealth with vigor before I can really do anything.

So tweak your builds just like sorcs are having to with sloads, avoid sorcs like Nightblades have to do with DK's wing's. Or best of all learn the proper escape when a metoer telegraph is launched.

Sorcs are not apex. We can't kill anyone slightly tanky. And to kill very squishy targets wr need to land a combo reliant upon a 170 cost ulti. With 5 GCD. Again meteor sorcs are potato farmers. Wr can burst down a potato really well and look awesome and upload that to YouTube. But if they are even approaching average. It turns into a duel, and wait till their or our friends show up and if you are a solo Sorc GL with this meteor crap. Ddddawnbreaker is still Superior for group play and we 2 or more people.

I have already min-max'd everything there is to min-max with a bow build, you cannot add more health if you want to actually get kills and the amount of health you'd need is in the ballpark of 4-5k more (to offset that "pitiful" Rune Cage damage to non-tank builds) which would mean 4-5k less stamina and 7-8% less damage (as well as worse sustain, since you don't have infinite regen on these builds). All because of one thing: Rune Cage.

If you think sorcs are having problems killing anyone slightly tanky, you should try other burst builds out there which are in a much worse spot. *** Tank builds are an universal problem and you see more of them every day thanks to changes like this Rune Cage that make non-tank builds unplayable. Hell, you're already telling me to get 4-5k more health on a build that didn't have to do so previous patch.

Btw you can always land Frag whether someone dodge or not by casting it after Rune Cage. Rune Cage has a delay before it goes off which makes the Frag land before opponent can CC break+dodge roll.

I wouldn't advise using Meteor against good NBs, not unless you have det pots. Meteor cue means you hit cloak & then you aren't targetable by sorc anymore, which means they can't do the Rune Cage combo as the NB simply blocks that Meteor while cloaked. You'll have better chances just normally bursting them with Cage combos (Curse->Wrath->LA+Cage->LA+Frag=dead unless tank).


Also, sorcs have always had heals on their bars; either Healing Ward off bar or Twilight Matriarch. It's nothing new this patch introduced.

DDuke

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

People saying "front-loaded burst is so much easier" act like it's some daunting task to cast curse and count to 3 in your head before you meteor and rune cage

If you have trouble landing Incap -> LA -> SA ani cancel-> Execute within 3 seconds, I think there's another problem that need resolving on your end rather than a Sorc. I don't even play Stamblade or mNB that often (but then I rarely play over 30 minutes unless there are friends inviting me to group) but I land that combo consistently within 3 seconds. And that is with high pings. Imagine that with low ping. Even faster. And very untelegraphed until they get hit. So... what's much easier to land? A combo like Stamden/Sorc you can see it coming miles away or combo that puts you in the first striker advantage?

What's easier to land is the combo you can guarantee to land with a skill like Rune Cage, not the combo that can be avoided. The combo that can be guaranteed to land is also the one dealing 50% more damage than the avoidable combos of stamblade for example.

The main issue is the amount of damage packed to the Rune Cage combos now that it gets a tooltip anywhere between 7-10k. After all, it used to go through block/dodge/cloak previous patch as well, but it didn't deal that extra damage.

It's kinda as if they added a patch note next patch that said: "Snipe now deals 60% more damage" or "Incap now deals 60% more damage", because that's how much extra burst sorcs got with that tooltip added in.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Oh and Asylum's Bow usage never changed Bowblades' distance. They are almost always away at their skills' max ranges. If they don't, they are going to be punished for running low resist and die to a single rotation of any class. This does not at all means it is tricky to land a combo. Sorc combo has lots of defensive measures you can take in between that it is called a potatomasher for a reason. Bowblades combo always comes in unexpected time because of Cloak and stealth. I wish Sorc could spam proc'd Frag at will like Snipe.

Um, I think it's reasonable to expect bow builds to try and stay at max range - that's kinda their M.O.?

I mean, what do you expect bow builds to do? In other games they're called "Rangers" or "Hunters" or "Archers", they aren't exactly known for running up to the enemy & whacking them in the face with those bows/crossbows/whatever.


In any case, the difference here is that the max range for Asylum Snipe builds is 15-20 meters where as it's 43m (51m near keep) for other bow builds so yes, distance is precisely what using it affects.

And yes, they do get punished if caught in the open as they aren't tank or dmg shield spamming builds, that's fine. You don't die to a "single rotation" though because every rotation out there can be dodge rolled/cloaked (until out of resources, which happens fast with these builds) - apart from Rune Cage combos.

If there are "defensive measures" I can take to avoid Rune Cage from one shotting me I'd like to hear about those, because last I checked a stamblade had no dmg shield or reflect that'd allow you to survive 20k+ burst damage that can't be dodged or blocked.


Also, you can spam Frag just like one can spam snipe, they're both cast time abilities until you get the Frag proc & it becomes instant cast. In fact, hardcast Frag even deals more damage than non-Asylum snipe if there's no Hawk Eye stacks for the sniper.

So by all means, go ahead if you think spamming snipe is effective: you have a sorc version of that playstyle right there.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

If you think it's less effective than meta stamblade build then I doubt you're playing an "improved version" because the build I play gets more kills in a 1vX scenario than a meta rollerblade & it gets those kills twice as fast.

Best part? It's effective in every PvP scenario because you can actually pick your kills from stealth (and then hope you don't get Rune Caged before you can become invisible again).


The only caveat is that you can't make any mistakes at all while playing it (especially in 1vX). First mistake=dead.


So yes, it's harder to play unless you're only ganking some low levels riding between keeps. I think too many people only see these types of builds in 1v1 gank scenarios & don't consider the 1vX or XvX at all.

I didn´t say it´s less effective than a meta stamblade build - you need to read what i write. I wrote is has a smaller margin of scenarios where it can be effective (and that´s mainly going away from a soloplay pov).

The problem isn´t making mistakes or not. The problem is that it literally takes one situationally aware player with a detect pot or mark to get you killed.
A small margin of error is fine. The problem is that for your build it´s outside of your control and an enemy player can decide: Now you die.
That´s what constitutes a bad build for me. It dies not only when you make a mistake but also when a competent enemy decides it´s time for you to die.

It´s also not effective in every pvp scenario as it´s a pure solo/nb grp build that does not work well in actual group environments at all.

And no it´s not harder to play. You can repeat that a hundred times if it makes you feel special - it´s not. It´s different but that does not constitute harder (ironically you list the reasons yourself - it´s way easier to get kills but harder to stay alive).

DDuke wrote: »

But you don't only meet those NBs, do you? Because if you do you're playing a different Cyrodiil than I am.

The Cyrodiil I'm playing is filled with rollerblades rolling around 24/7 with a 2H Axe & they don't snipe, they use Poison Injection. They also don't use cloak for anything but running away or regaining stamina.

Sure, there are some zerg snipers as well (and very, very, very few people playing an actual good bow build), but that's already two very different playstyles you're facing.


With sorcs it's one playstyle you meet over and over again: spam shields & burst.


That's something ZOS needs to address.

I meet petsorcs aswell - which play vastly different from your described "meta" sorc.

Nbs are generally a spectrum from pure snipe spammers
to snipe into incap (mostly with dw for some reason)
to pure rollerblades.
Any good nb will use cloak offensively to heavyattack with either bow/dw or stun with supriseattack. The potatos admittedly don´t but that can hardly be a point of reference can it?

Is it problematic that sorc has very few actual playstyle variations because the class is simply designed that way at the moment? Sure it is. People have been making suggestions to change that for years now.
Is it reasonable to blame the players for that and throw a tantrum insulting everyone playing the class?
Imo it´s not.

IlCanis_LupuslI

wot???? Sorc and damage??
can those 2 words even be used in the same sentence without breaking out in hysterical laughter ???
The mentioned burst combo literally only kills unshielded Sorcs/rolypoly stamblades, any1 else just laughs it off....

IlCanis_LupuslI

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

@Brutusmax1mus correction it´s a guaranteed kill vs any one wearing light armor (and is unshielded) or medium armor...
People in heavy armor dont really feel that combo tooo much tbh ive been hit by that combo a dozen times and it never gets pulls my health down more then 30-40%... and even if; Trollking saves my A** :-D

Jsmalls

DDuke wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Nope, as you can see I cloak right after getting the kill, before taking any real damage.

But Sorcs deserve every teabag because they are the „ez mode class“. Right. The cited statement above is very revealing - Rune Cage is OP because you can’t just use your Carte Blanche and escape from the middle of 20+ players so easily any longer.

Yes, they do and yes they are (now atleast).

There was nothing wrong with sorc in previous patch; in fact, they were already the "natural predators" of bow builds like mine and had a huge advantage against them - but they didn't get free kills and if I played well I could survive.

@DDuke

Spoken like a true Non MagSorc main.

MagSorcs simply put weren't killing anything above 25-28k health. It didn't matter if we were a better player, if that other person made a mistake, or 2 or 3. Our burst is capped, and we have no sustained damage to follow it up. We don't have class access to defiles or even debuffs for that matter. Our burst would cap at 12-15k if everything crit, was EASILY counterable then we'd have nothing to follow up with. We weren't even a threat in a 1v1 against players setup as such.

But yeah our class was perfectly fine...

What, you think everyone else had ways of bursting anyone above 25-28k health?

Considering mSorc had/has the best instant burst in the game (LA+Cage+LA+Frag+Curse+Wrath+Meteor), have you considered how other burst oriented builds might've felt like in previous patch?

Full sorc "tooltip burst" is 79 354 with a high damage build like 5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw

73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration

2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105

2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149

10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329

12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183

6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518

4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284


Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070

4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354

...where as NB Incap->Relentless combo is "capped" at 53 391 with similar max dmg zero sustain gear (5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena)

81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration

2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398

2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737

12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760

14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496

4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391

...and Asylum Bow build is around the same damage as Incap->Will.


See, 25k+ health tank builds aren't just a sorc problem, they're an universal problem for builds that are burst oriented. And no, you have even less sustained damage on a bowblade than on a sorc & medium armor high dmg melee stamblade also doesn't run DoTs apart from PI (you can't sustain DoT oriented playstyle) so that sustained dmg is limited to Heavy Attack(since it's the only way to sustain)->Surprise Attack spam, which is weaker than Force Pulse/Frags & Curses in terms of sustained damage.

Jsmalls wrote: »

And I seriously don't understand people's complaint about the worst 1vX defense mechanism in the game. I have my magDk friend ripping off my shields as fast as I can stack them. With 750 CP to delve into shattering blows with is a l2p issue at this point.

mDK has wings, lots of DoTs and damage shields of their own to pressure a mSorc and survive their damage, a medium armor stamina build is stuck spamming dodge roll & trying to burst through shield stacks, which is never happening because you're on defensive the entire fight and first Rune Cage kills you. Just from a 1v1 duel perspective of course, getting Xv1'd by sorcs is even worse since they disable dodge roll/cloak with Rune Cage and let everyone land their damage on you.

@DDuke

Are we going to ignore the fact that the Sorc's burst requires a 180 cost ult, and 5 GCD uninterrupted, versus the 70 cost ultimate and your 2 GCDs listed? Did you think we'd just not notice? Lol

And the statement was prepatch Sorcs so let's take away that Rune Cage tool tip and light attack scaling difference and it looks a lot weaker while still requiring a 180 cost ult and 5 GCD.

Then let's also discuss how a NBs burst sets up a major defile, and 25% increased damage, and a snare, for your spammable follow up. We don't even have a spammable follow up (LuL force pulse).

Other classes have more sustained damage (NOT ALL CLASSES). A magicka templar/mag dk/mag NB/ most stamina classes with spammable.

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

If you think it's less effective than meta stamblade build then I doubt you're playing an "improved version" because the build I play gets more kills in a 1vX scenario than a meta rollerblade & it gets those kills twice as fast.

Best part? It's effective in every PvP scenario because you can actually pick your kills from stealth (and then hope you don't get Rune Caged before you can become invisible again).


The only caveat is that you can't make any mistakes at all while playing it (especially in 1vX). First mistake=dead.


So yes, it's harder to play unless you're only ganking some low levels riding between keeps. I think too many people only see these types of builds in 1v1 gank scenarios & don't consider the 1vX or XvX at all.

I didn´t say it´s less effective than a meta stamblade build - you need to read what i write. I wrote is has a smaller margin of scenarios where it can be effective (and that´s mainly going away from a soloplay pov).

The problem isn´t making mistakes or not. The problem is that it literally takes one situationally aware player with a detect pot or mark to get you killed.
A small margin of error is fine. The problem is that for your build it´s outside of your control and an enemy player can decide: Now you die.
That´s what constitutes a bad build for me. It dies not only when you make a mistake but also when a competent enemy decides it´s time for you to die.

It´s also not effective in every pvp scenario as it´s a pure solo/nb grp build that does not work well in actual group environments at all.

And no it´s not harder to play. You can repeat that a hundred times if it makes you feel special - it´s not. It´s different but that does not constitute harder (ironically you list the reasons yourself - it´s way easier to get kills but harder to stay alive).

Nope, it doesn't die if you get marked or det potted lol.

If you get marked or det potted you still have dodge rolls (and Shadow Image) to fall back on, as well as 7 medium+Major Expedition to get the f out of Dodge with Shuffle to remove snares.

But that's where most people fail, which is exactly why I say that it isn't as easy to play as meta builds that have easier time spamming dodge rolls/shields/permablock and can survive burst easier.


The only thing that is a guaranteed death (from good *and* even bad players) is a Rune Cage combo.

Also, it isn't any easier for this build to get kills than it is for a meta rollerblade to Incap->Will some poor pug chasing them around a tower spamming light attacks.

Or for a sorc to Rune Cage & hit keys in correct order lmao.

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

But you don't only meet those NBs, do you? Because if you do you're playing a different Cyrodiil than I am.

The Cyrodiil I'm playing is filled with rollerblades rolling around 24/7 with a 2H Axe & they don't snipe, they use Poison Injection. They also don't use cloak for anything but running away or regaining stamina.

Sure, there are some zerg snipers as well (and very, very, very few people playing an actual good bow build), but that's already two very different playstyles you're facing.


With sorcs it's one playstyle you meet over and over again: spam shields & burst.


That's something ZOS needs to address.

I meet petsorcs aswell - which play vastly different from your described "meta" sorc.

Nbs are generally a spectrum from pure snipe spammers
to snipe into incap (mostly with dw for some reason)
to pure rollerblades.
Any good nb will use cloak offensively to heavyattack with either bow/dw or stun with supriseattack. The potatos admittedly don´t but that can hardly be a point of reference can it?

Is it problematic that sorc has very few actual playstyle variations because the class is simply designed that way at the moment? Sure it is. People have been making suggestions to change that for years now.
Is it reasonable to blame the players for that and throw a tantrum insulting everyone playing the class?
Imo it´s not.

Pet sorcs in open world? :thinking:

I think you spend too much time in Alik'r.


Also, I'm not blaming certain players for playing meta builds, I'm blaming them for defending them & coming up with excuses to justify skills that ruin the fun for others in game and then telling me my solution is to go play a similar meta cancer build as everyone else because they simply must have their OP Cage.

No, sorry - that doesn't fly with me.


If I had fun in PvP right now I'd be PvPing rather than spending time on forums. The main reason I don't is simple: Rune Cage.

Aedaryl

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

If you think it's less effective than meta stamblade build then I doubt you're playing an "improved version" because the build I play gets more kills in a 1vX scenario than a meta rollerblade & it gets those kills twice as fast.

Best part? It's effective in every PvP scenario because you can actually pick your kills from stealth (and then hope you don't get Rune Caged before you can become invisible again).


The only caveat is that you can't make any mistakes at all while playing it (especially in 1vX). First mistake=dead.


So yes, it's harder to play unless you're only ganking some low levels riding between keeps. I think too many people only see these types of builds in 1v1 gank scenarios & don't consider the 1vX or XvX at all.

I didn´t say it´s less effective than a meta stamblade build - you need to read what i write. I wrote is has a smaller margin of scenarios where it can be effective (and that´s mainly going away from a soloplay pov).

The problem isn´t making mistakes or not. The problem is that it literally takes one situationally aware player with a detect pot or mark to get you killed.
A small margin of error is fine. The problem is that for your build it´s outside of your control and an enemy player can decide: Now you die.
That´s what constitutes a bad build for me. It dies not only when you make a mistake but also when a competent enemy decides it´s time for you to die.

It´s also not effective in every pvp scenario as it´s a pure solo/nb grp build that does not work well in actual group environments at all.

And no it´s not harder to play. You can repeat that a hundred times if it makes you feel special - it´s not. It´s different but that does not constitute harder (ironically you list the reasons yourself - it´s way easier to get kills but harder to stay alive).

Nope, it doesn't die if you get marked or det potted lol.

If you get marked or det potted you still have dodge rolls (and Shadow Image) to fall back on, as well as 7 medium+Major Expedition to get the f out of Dodge with Shuffle to remove snares.

But that's where most people fail, which is exactly why I say that it isn't as easy to play as meta builds that have easier time spamming dodge rolls/shields/permablock and can survive burst easier.


The only thing that is a guaranteed death (from good *and* even bad players) is a Rune Cage combo.

Also, it isn't any easier for this build to get kills than it is for a meta rollerblade to Incap->Will some poor pug chasing them around a tower spamming light attacks.

Or for a sorc to Rune Cage & hit keys in correct order lmao.

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

But you don't only meet those NBs, do you? Because if you do you're playing a different Cyrodiil than I am.

The Cyrodiil I'm playing is filled with rollerblades rolling around 24/7 with a 2H Axe & they don't snipe, they use Poison Injection. They also don't use cloak for anything but running away or regaining stamina.

Sure, there are some zerg snipers as well (and very, very, very few people playing an actual good bow build), but that's already two very different playstyles you're facing.


With sorcs it's one playstyle you meet over and over again: spam shields & burst.


That's something ZOS needs to address.

I meet petsorcs aswell - which play vastly different from your described "meta" sorc.

Nbs are generally a spectrum from pure snipe spammers
to snipe into incap (mostly with dw for some reason)
to pure rollerblades.
Any good nb will use cloak offensively to heavyattack with either bow/dw or stun with supriseattack. The potatos admittedly don´t but that can hardly be a point of reference can it?

Is it problematic that sorc has very few actual playstyle variations because the class is simply designed that way at the moment? Sure it is. People have been making suggestions to change that for years now.
Is it reasonable to blame the players for that and throw a tantrum insulting everyone playing the class?
Imo it´s not.

Pet sorcs in open world? :thinking:

I think you spend too much time in Alik'r.


Also, I'm not blaming certain players for playing meta builds, I'm blaming them for defending them & coming up with excuses to justify skills that ruin the fun for others in game and then telling me my solution is to go play a similar meta cancer build as everyone else because they simply must have their OP Cage.

No, sorry - that doesn't fly with me.


If I had fun in PvP right now I'd be PvPing rather than spending time on forums. The main reason I don't is simple: Rune Cage.

You can be effective with a pet sorc in cyrodiil, I do it everydays, it's funny coming from someone playing non meta builds to laught at other people playing also non meta builds.

But here we are, why pet sorc shouldn't be as good as your bow build in cyrodiil ?

DDuke

Jsmalls wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Nope, as you can see I cloak right after getting the kill, before taking any real damage.

But Sorcs deserve every teabag because they are the „ez mode class“. Right. The cited statement above is very revealing - Rune Cage is OP because you can’t just use your Carte Blanche and escape from the middle of 20+ players so easily any longer.

Yes, they do and yes they are (now atleast).

There was nothing wrong with sorc in previous patch; in fact, they were already the "natural predators" of bow builds like mine and had a huge advantage against them - but they didn't get free kills and if I played well I could survive.

@DDuke

Spoken like a true Non MagSorc main.

MagSorcs simply put weren't killing anything above 25-28k health. It didn't matter if we were a better player, if that other person made a mistake, or 2 or 3. Our burst is capped, and we have no sustained damage to follow it up. We don't have class access to defiles or even debuffs for that matter. Our burst would cap at 12-15k if everything crit, was EASILY counterable then we'd have nothing to follow up with. We weren't even a threat in a 1v1 against players setup as such.

But yeah our class was perfectly fine...

What, you think everyone else had ways of bursting anyone above 25-28k health?

Considering mSorc had/has the best instant burst in the game (LA+Cage+LA+Frag+Curse+Wrath+Meteor), have you considered how other burst oriented builds might've felt like in previous patch?

Full sorc "tooltip burst" is 79 354 with a high damage build like 5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw

73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration

2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105

2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149

10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329

12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183

6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518

4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284


Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070

4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354

...where as NB Incap->Relentless combo is "capped" at 53 391 with similar max dmg zero sustain gear (5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena)

81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration

2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398

2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737

12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760

14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496

4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391

...and Asylum Bow build is around the same damage as Incap->Will.


See, 25k+ health tank builds aren't just a sorc problem, they're an universal problem for builds that are burst oriented. And no, you have even less sustained damage on a bowblade than on a sorc & medium armor high dmg melee stamblade also doesn't run DoTs apart from PI (you can't sustain DoT oriented playstyle) so that sustained dmg is limited to Heavy Attack(since it's the only way to sustain)->Surprise Attack spam, which is weaker than Force Pulse/Frags & Curses in terms of sustained damage.

Jsmalls wrote: »

And I seriously don't understand people's complaint about the worst 1vX defense mechanism in the game. I have my magDk friend ripping off my shields as fast as I can stack them. With 750 CP to delve into shattering blows with is a l2p issue at this point.

mDK has wings, lots of DoTs and damage shields of their own to pressure a mSorc and survive their damage, a medium armor stamina build is stuck spamming dodge roll & trying to burst through shield stacks, which is never happening because you're on defensive the entire fight and first Rune Cage kills you. Just from a 1v1 duel perspective of course, getting Xv1'd by sorcs is even worse since they disable dodge roll/cloak with Rune Cage and let everyone land their damage on you.

@DDuke

Are we going to ignore the fact that the Sorc's burst requires a 180 cost ult, and 5 GCD uninterrupted, versus the 70 cost ultimate and your 2 GCDs listed? Did you think we'd just not notice? Lol

And the statement was prepatch Sorcs so let's take away that Rune Cage tool tip and light attack scaling difference and it looks a lot weaker while still requiring a 180 cost ult and 5 GCD.

Then let's also discuss how a NBs burst sets up a major defile, and 25% increased damage, and a snare, for your spammable follow up. We don't even have a spammable follow up (LuL force pulse).

Other classes have more sustained damage (NOT ALL CLASSES). A magicka templar/mag dk/mag NB/ most stamina classes with spammable.

No, you shouldn't ignore it - that's why I added the ultimate separately.

If you take a look at the numbers, you'll see that sorc burst even without the ultimate is equivalent to NB Incap->Will (slightly more actually) with the pretty damn important caveat that it is 100% unavoidable.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of Incap either. I think it's a cheesy ultimate and does far too many things with one button click, imho it should only stun if you are below your opponent's health pool (like it used to work before) which would make NBs either have to use Cloak->SA/Concealed for stun or run Fear & spend one GCD doing no damage at all.


That said, Incap is dodgeable/blockable meaning there's always something you can do about it, which makes it less of an issue (especially for builds like my bow build which just stay out of melee range vs meta stamblades & dodge rolls after each gap closer to prevent Incap or Fear from hitting).


What I don't like is taking similar amount of burst to Incap->Will without any chance of avoiding it.

DDuke

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

If you think it's less effective than meta stamblade build then I doubt you're playing an "improved version" because the build I play gets more kills in a 1vX scenario than a meta rollerblade & it gets those kills twice as fast.

Best part? It's effective in every PvP scenario because you can actually pick your kills from stealth (and then hope you don't get Rune Caged before you can become invisible again).


The only caveat is that you can't make any mistakes at all while playing it (especially in 1vX). First mistake=dead.


So yes, it's harder to play unless you're only ganking some low levels riding between keeps. I think too many people only see these types of builds in 1v1 gank scenarios & don't consider the 1vX or XvX at all.

I didn´t say it´s less effective than a meta stamblade build - you need to read what i write. I wrote is has a smaller margin of scenarios where it can be effective (and that´s mainly going away from a soloplay pov).

The problem isn´t making mistakes or not. The problem is that it literally takes one situationally aware player with a detect pot or mark to get you killed.
A small margin of error is fine. The problem is that for your build it´s outside of your control and an enemy player can decide: Now you die.
That´s what constitutes a bad build for me. It dies not only when you make a mistake but also when a competent enemy decides it´s time for you to die.

It´s also not effective in every pvp scenario as it´s a pure solo/nb grp build that does not work well in actual group environments at all.

And no it´s not harder to play. You can repeat that a hundred times if it makes you feel special - it´s not. It´s different but that does not constitute harder (ironically you list the reasons yourself - it´s way easier to get kills but harder to stay alive).

Nope, it doesn't die if you get marked or det potted lol.

If you get marked or det potted you still have dodge rolls (and Shadow Image) to fall back on, as well as 7 medium+Major Expedition to get the f out of Dodge with Shuffle to remove snares.

But that's where most people fail, which is exactly why I say that it isn't as easy to play as meta builds that have easier time spamming dodge rolls/shields/permablock and can survive burst easier.


The only thing that is a guaranteed death (from good *and* even bad players) is a Rune Cage combo.

Also, it isn't any easier for this build to get kills than it is for a meta rollerblade to Incap->Will some poor pug chasing them around a tower spamming light attacks.

Or for a sorc to Rune Cage & hit keys in correct order lmao.

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

But you don't only meet those NBs, do you? Because if you do you're playing a different Cyrodiil than I am.

The Cyrodiil I'm playing is filled with rollerblades rolling around 24/7 with a 2H Axe & they don't snipe, they use Poison Injection. They also don't use cloak for anything but running away or regaining stamina.

Sure, there are some zerg snipers as well (and very, very, very few people playing an actual good bow build), but that's already two very different playstyles you're facing.


With sorcs it's one playstyle you meet over and over again: spam shields & burst.


That's something ZOS needs to address.

I meet petsorcs aswell - which play vastly different from your described "meta" sorc.

Nbs are generally a spectrum from pure snipe spammers
to snipe into incap (mostly with dw for some reason)
to pure rollerblades.
Any good nb will use cloak offensively to heavyattack with either bow/dw or stun with supriseattack. The potatos admittedly don´t but that can hardly be a point of reference can it?

Is it problematic that sorc has very few actual playstyle variations because the class is simply designed that way at the moment? Sure it is. People have been making suggestions to change that for years now.
Is it reasonable to blame the players for that and throw a tantrum insulting everyone playing the class?
Imo it´s not.

Pet sorcs in open world? :thinking:

I think you spend too much time in Alik'r.


Also, I'm not blaming certain players for playing meta builds, I'm blaming them for defending them & coming up with excuses to justify skills that ruin the fun for others in game and then telling me my solution is to go play a similar meta cancer build as everyone else because they simply must have their OP Cage.

No, sorry - that doesn't fly with me.


If I had fun in PvP right now I'd be PvPing rather than spending time on forums. The main reason I don't is simple: Rune Cage.

You can be effective with a pet sorc in cyrodiil, I do it everydays, it's funny coming from someone playing non meta builds to laught at other people playing also non meta builds.

But here we are, why pet sorc shouldn't be as good as your bow build in cyrodiil ?

It should, which is why I think they should make pets stick to your side better etc in Cyrodiil & in other ways improve on those builds' open world viability (note: without making them stronger in duels).

Would be nice if there was like a "Soul Link" type of ability (WoW players know what I mean) that'd allow you to use your pets as tanks & maybe not rely on dmg shield spam as main defense for example.


What I would never defend is something that lets you one shot those pet sorcs (but not the meta sorcs) through their dmg shields - that is the equivalent of what is going on here.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

The main reason I don't is simple: Rune Cage

@DDuke

I'm pretty sure you'd instead still be here and complain about another ability that hurts your non-meta build instead, even if RC was changed (which could be argued ofc, a range decrease, or moving the damage to frags would be choices). You just expect to be untouchable while being able to one shot others. Most times PvP doesn't work that way.

Well, I did write "main reason", there are other things that could be improved of course but Rune Cage is the one gamebreaking thing at the moment since it's the only guaranteed death for these builds.

I've complained about similar things in the past, like undodgeable Power Lash (which thank god became dodgeable again) & the game was actually pretty decent in Dragon Bones, I PvP'd quite a bit during that update.

Now we're in the "undodgeable Power Lash" situation again, except this time around it's 28m range & even more broken than the melee range undodgeable Power Lashes were


And no, I don't expect to be "untouchable" unless I play well. There's plenty of actually balanced abilities that still go through dodge roll and I have to cloak to mitigate (and if you break cloak then I'm in trouble).

That's how evasion based builds work in (MMO)RPGs: they evade damage, they don't tank it.


But sure, keep lecturing me about being untouchable & one shotting people while hiding behind 30k shield stacks+best mobility in game and having the highest burst in game. Burst that is also completely unavoidable.

Ragnaroek93

In my opinion Sloads, Defile and Bleeds are much worse than Rune Cage in this patch. Against Rune Cage I can at least build around with Impreg. Admittedly Impreg is overperforming and I'm not saying that it's good to force people into tank builds but at least there is an option to survive sorc burst. There isn't any option to build against Defile, Sloads and Bleeds (even a templar can barely get rid of these).

Just give med armor an option to be able to outheal pressure (especially unavoidable pressure) and it would already help a lot. I don't think that nerfing Rune Cage would help medium armor builds much in the end.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

If you think it's less effective than meta stamblade build then I doubt you're playing an "improved version" because the build I play gets more kills in a 1vX scenario than a meta rollerblade & it gets those kills twice as fast.

Best part? It's effective in every PvP scenario because you can actually pick your kills from stealth (and then hope you don't get Rune Caged before you can become invisible again).


The only caveat is that you can't make any mistakes at all while playing it (especially in 1vX). First mistake=dead.


So yes, it's harder to play unless you're only ganking some low levels riding between keeps. I think too many people only see these types of builds in 1v1 gank scenarios & don't consider the 1vX or XvX at all.

I didn´t say it´s less effective than a meta stamblade build - you need to read what i write. I wrote is has a smaller margin of scenarios where it can be effective (and that´s mainly going away from a soloplay pov).

The problem isn´t making mistakes or not. The problem is that it literally takes one situationally aware player with a detect pot or mark to get you killed.
A small margin of error is fine. The problem is that for your build it´s outside of your control and an enemy player can decide: Now you die.
That´s what constitutes a bad build for me. It dies not only when you make a mistake but also when a competent enemy decides it´s time for you to die.

It´s also not effective in every pvp scenario as it´s a pure solo/nb grp build that does not work well in actual group environments at all.

And no it´s not harder to play. You can repeat that a hundred times if it makes you feel special - it´s not. It´s different but that does not constitute harder (ironically you list the reasons yourself - it´s way easier to get kills but harder to stay alive).

Nope, it doesn't die if you get marked or det potted lol.

If you get marked or det potted you still have dodge rolls (and Shadow Image) to fall back on, as well as 7 medium+Major Expedition to get the f out of Dodge with Shuffle to remove snares.

But that's where most people fail, which is exactly why I say that it isn't as easy to play as meta builds that have easier time spamming dodge rolls/shields/permablock and can survive burst easier.


The only thing that is a guaranteed death (from good *and* even bad players) is a Rune Cage combo.

Also, it isn't any easier for this build to get kills than it is for a meta rollerblade to Incap->Will some poor pug chasing them around a tower spamming light attacks.

Or for a sorc to Rune Cage & hit keys in correct order lmao.

Sorc + cage is only problematic in 1v1. If you fight outnumbered against anything that is not superpotato you won´t be able to press the skills in correct order because you die when chaining 5 offensive skills aswell as getting cced on top.

When someones dedicated to chase you down you die. I´m still fairly sure of that (atleast last patch) - the new shadowimage might change things. But then it only takes two people now.
And nothing is hard about dodgeroll shuffle sprint behind los. Literally nothing.

Otherwise - i don´t get you. Three months ago you complain that the build isn´t survivable enough to duel with it when cloak gets hardcountered - and now you´re telling me how insanely survivable it is except for cage.

I guess you change your argument anyway it suits you.

Idk what else to say. Continue to believe that the build you play is somehow harder than others. Imo it´s not. Atleast i´ve played both the easymode and "hard"mode builds in open world to form that opinion.

DDuke

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

In my opinion Sloads, Defile and Bleeds are much worse than Rune Cage in this patch. Against Rune Cage I can at least build around with Impreg. Admittedly Impreg is overperforming and I'm not saying that it's good to force people into tank builds but at least there is an option to survive sorc burst. There isn't any option to build against Defile, Sloads and Bleeds (even a templar can barely get rid of these).

Just give med armor an option to be able to outheal pressure (especially unavoidable pressure) and it would already help a lot. I don't think that nerfing Rune Cage would help medium armor builds much in the end.

DoT builds are the reason I don't play DW/Bow or any other melee medium build at the moment, but they're less of a problem for a bow build in open world.

So far I've been sloaded precisely two times over the 10+ hours I've spent in Cyrodiil, that's because I don't stay visible long with my playstyle and when I'm visible I'm dodge rolling into sneak somewhere far away from melee builds.

Things like Soul Assault, jbeam and... Rune Cage are really the only things that can sometimes proc it before I get to cloak.


But yes, they're problematic for meta builds atm, which is why you see more posts about sloads & defiles than posts about Rune Cage, as very few people even play non-tank builds anymore in this meta.

Best thing you can do with sloads if it's procced is wait until there's 2s left & then dodge roll->cloak the moment it's gone and either escape or kill the sloadman if you think it's killable (and not a *** megatank build).

Obviously it's "a bit" harder for melee builds to cloak away though.

Jsmalls

@DDuke

Every magSorc agreed RC would be problematic in the PTS forum. No surprise there.

But let's not pretend that stamblades were in a worse spot than magSorcs last patch where you stated we were "balanced". 1v1 we were trash, but you never notice another class if they aren't 1v1ing you hence why you thought they were balanced.

No doubt RC is overpeforming on medium armor builds (something I've never had issues with last patch, 1v1s used to go back and forth based on player skill) and I have no real answer for you. The one clip I saw you show looked like a latency issue however. From experience if a NB cloaks after casting a RC they are untargetable for a GC until they reappear stunned. Timing a cloak like that isn't easy I can imagine, but that is my observation. Or maybe those instances were from latency.

Best advice in a 1v1 scenario is to CC the Sorc between the curse cast and curse explosion. That will interrupt their setup and they then have to choose to reapply shields and retry or leave themselves vulnerable to a 1 shot burst themselves.

Edit: LoL at best mobility. Between gap closers, then snares and roots that we can't purge, and sprinting speed of medium armor builds... Our mobility is not the best. I have Stam builds out run me streaking after them. And by the 3rd to 4th streak I have to give up or be OOM. Best mobility lolololololol not since Imperial City patch.

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, we've removed a few comments that were baiting and contained personal insults. This is a friendly reminder to stay on topic with the thread. Posts should contribute something to the conversation and users should not result to personal attacks to try and make their point. Thank you for your understanding.

DDuke

Jsmalls wrote: »

@DDuke

Every magSorc agreed RC would be problematic in the PTS forum. No surprise there.

But let's not pretend that stamblades were in a worse spot than magSorcs last patch where you stated we were "balanced". 1v1 we were trash, but you never notice another class if they aren't 1v1ing you hence why you thought they were balanced.

No doubt RC is overpeforming on medium armor builds (something I've never had issues with last patch, 1v1s used to go back and forth based on player skill) and I have no real answer for you. The one clip I saw you show looked like a latency issue however. From experience if a NB cloaks after casting a RC they are untargetable for a GC until they reappear stunned. Timing a cloak like that isn't easy I can imagine, but that is my observation. Or maybe those instances were from latency.

Best advice in a 1v1 scenario is to CC the Sorc between the curse cast and curse explosion. That will interrupt their setup and they then have to choose to reapply shields and retry or leave themselves vulnerable to a 1 shot burst themselves.

Where do you see me defending meta stamblades? I didn't play a meta stamblade last patch and no, I don't think they were/are balanced either.

Here's some of my views on stamblade you might find surprising:

1. Incap is too strong & shouldn't stun (or should be like before & stun only when you are below target in health %). It's doing too many things with one button & makes meta stamblades too easy to play by giving them what is essentially a two button burst combo while other classes have to use multiple skills for burst.
2. Cloak is either too strong (i.e. when opponents don't have counters) or too useless (i.e. after Piercing Mark, det pot). There should be faint visual cues (e.g. footprints) to show where a stealthed opponent is moving & "hardcounters" like Piercing Mark or det pot need to be changed to something less punishing.

I think one big thing that makes the usual rollerblade so damn easy to play is that your burst is the easiest thing in the world to pull off, just have to spam dodge rolls & cloaks until Relentless Incap is rdy & repeat.

I don't like those builds either, but they don't hurt my non-meta build like Rune Cage does, especially now that I can hit them with Bombard while they spam dodge rolls.


And nope, you become visible if Rune Cage hits you in cloak (atleast so far that's been my experience every time).

There's a small problem when it comes to CC'ing sorcs:

1. Bow doesn't have a ranged CC (ironically) with Scatter Shot having a pitiful 10m range. You can go for the Tactician stun but it's extremely clunky with bow medium weaves and costs you too much burst.
2. You're dead even without Curse (I usually try to cloak immediately if Curse is applied to prevent RC) on a non-tank build. LA+Rune Cage->LA+Frag->Wrath is enough to kill someone with 20k health (it wasn't last patch). I'm fine with being very vulnerable to such bursts when I can also avoid them by reacting quick. Like if I got hit by a Frag instead of Rune Cage I'd think "I need to react faster with dodge roll" & not "oh, I guess I should play a tank build like everyone else".

Rianai

@DDuke

You really want to tell me that you could always survive a Curse/Fury/Frag combo, but now can't survive Reach, Cage, Fury, which is much less dmg? Ever thought that the overall increased dmg (buffs to LA, more/better set pieces for some builds) might actually cause you more trouble than the Cage dmg itself? I mean, in your vid you went from 100% to 35% before any sorc skill dealt dmg, just because you got CCed. And that CC could have been Fear, Fozzilize, DB, Leap, ... too. A second player attacking you there (surprising it didn't happen) and you would have been dead long before Cage dmg happened. Anything undodgeable or cloak breaking could have messed you up there. Hard to belive you only died because of the dmg on Rune Cage, sry.

And you say, the whole Sorc combo is unavoidable. That's simply not true. Curse is (kinda) and Rune Cage is, but it is possible to avoid getting hit by both at the same time the same way you can avoid a Meteor -> Cage combo. And on their own those skills shouldn't kill you. The combo is easier to avoid than your snipe combo (or any frontloaded burst from stealth), because it doesn't happen instantly out of nowhere. Being dodgeable or not doesn't matter if there is no time to react.

Ofc if it doesn't even need a combo to kill you, because some light attacks are enough dmg, then yes, you've got a problem ...

DDuke

Rianai wrote: »

@DDuke

You really want to tell me that you could always survive a Curse/Fury/Frag combo, but now can't survive Reach, Cage, Fury, which is much less dmg? Ever thought that the overall increased dmg (buffs to LA, more/better set pieces for some builds) might actually cause you more trouble than the Cage dmg itself? I mean, in your vid you went from 100% to 35% before any sorc skill dealt dmg, just because you got CCed. And that CC could have been Fear, Fozzilize, DB, Leap, ... too. A second player attacking you there (surprising it didn't happen) and you would have been dead long before Cage dmg happened. Anything undodgeable or cloak breaking could have messed you up there. Hard to belive you only died because of the dmg on Rune Cage, sry.

No, that's the thing: I couldn't survive Curse Fury Frag combo if it hit me. That's 100% mea culpa if it did.

That's why you have dodge roll (and cloak) in the game, to act as a reactionary defense for players who enjoy a reactionary kind of gameplay rather than turtling up playing a tank build or spamming dmg shields.

I for one am not able to enjoy even in the slightest a playstyle that revolves around spamming abilities, I much prefer the tempo of builds that aren't actually capable of doing it due to limited sustain and have to improvise with their gameplay doing things like cloak->sneak (since you can't spam cloaks on low sustain) and are basically on a timer to kill their opponent (or escape). That's my idea of fun, not spamming skills on an unkillable megatank.


Also yes, it's mostly the damage from Cage that is different compared to previous patch. I now take anywhere between 3-6k (depending on build) damage from the Rune Cage breaking, where as the light attacks deal and extra 1k each compared to previous patch (means 2k more from Light Attacks since it's 2 weaves that hit you with RC combos).

Rianai wrote: »

And you say, the whole Sorc combo is unavoidable. That's simply not true. Curse is (kinda) and Rune Cage is, but it is possible to avoid getting hit by both at the same time the same way you can avoid a Meteor -> Cage combo. And on their own those skills shouldn't kill you. The combo is easier to avoid than your snipe combo (or any frontloaded burst from stealth), because it doesn't happen instantly out of nowhere. Being dodgeable or not doesn't matter if there is no time to react.

Ofc if it doesn't even need a combo to kill you, because some light attacks are enough dmg, then yes, you've got a problem ...

You don't need a full combo (Meteor etc) to kill a medium armor player anymore.

You don't even need the Curse to go off like you can see on that video.


And no, it's not easier to avoid than snipe combo because it's completely impossible to avoid it unless you're invisible to the sorc. Guess what you also avoid while invisible? Snipe.

But while that's not the only way to avoid Snipe combos (dmg shields, dodge rolls, Shuffle dodges, block) it is the only way to avoid a Rune Cage combo.

You can even prepare in advance vs any attempt at stealth burst by keeping shields up (you can see me canceling so many snipes on that short video clip alone) or dodge rolling when in open world (you have no idea how many rollerblades have avoided certain, well deserved death because of infinite dodge roll spam).

I've even had some people simply react to the combat music/snipe sound that happens when you shoot at them (yes, it's possible and no, it's not Miats v2.0 or anything).


No amount of preparation lets you survive a Rune Cage combo however, only playing a tank build does (or a build with dmg shields).


Here's a theoretical question:
Add 9-10k to the tooltip of Incap (i.e. atleast +50% damage increase), how well would you survive NB burst combos after that? Would it be balanced?

That'd be the equivalent of the Rune Cage change for NB.

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, since the thread has continued to derail due to baiting comments, we have decided to close the thread. Thank you for your understanding.