Meteor + Rune Cage/Petrify/Aspect of Terror Combination Needs to be Looked At

Waffennacht

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

montjie

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

Did you leave fear out by accident orrrrr........

Yup. I didn't even know fear was unblockable. I so rarely come across NIghtblades who use fear in open world (it's mostly from stealth).

I'll update the first post.

Ah k, Im having mixed feelings about this. Dont really like undodgeable, unblockable stuff but then again I use them on my dk's and magsorc too because I kinda have to.

What would you propose as a change to these abilities then?

raasdal wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

First, i assumed this was a serious necro.

How about making a build that does not get destroyed by litterally the OLDEST universal ultimate burst combo in the game?

If you cant take a single Meteor to the face, then you need to look at your own build, and how much you rely on Dodge / Block to mitigate damage.

Making such a build was pretty simple before patch, but after you add 9-10k tooltip dmg to that (i.e. the Summerset Rune Cage changes) it becomes a matter of having to play a tank build to survive the burst.

In retrospect, the Rune Cage now dealing 9-10k tooltip dmg is the same as if they had added a patch note for NB that said: "Incap now deals 60% more damage" - that's how much extra burst the sorc combo got from Rune Cage change alone (more light attack dmg adds even more to it).


Such burst wouldn't be a problem if it actually required some skill to land and/or could be countered somehow by classes without access to Shimmering Shield/Wings (to prevent Frag/light attack portion of burst)/Ritual (to get rid of Curse/Wrath) - at the moment it just converts medium armor stamblades/sorcs into free AP.

Correct me if i am wrong, but all they did was make the damage of rune cage up front, instead of delayed untill stun ends? So in effect, the total damage is the same as before patch.

Pre summerset the damage wouldnt go through if the target broke free iirc, only if the full duration of the stun ran its course

DDuke

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

Aedaryl

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

Of course you take a 100% damage build non viable and non sustainable to test it.

True rune cage number is around 8k. A 9-10k tooltip is on a 1000% damage build.

I'm not saying rune cage is fine, we are both agree it should deal instant damage, but again, stop exagerating numbers.

Rune cage should have the damage doubled and be a DoT over 8s.

Brutusmax1mus

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

I'm saying if you get 100 to 0 by this combo you're not running a sustainable build based on combat using resistance and high impen, and are likely in a build based on permablocking, pure dmg, or built for zerging. I'm also saying that this combo is op.

Talking cp campaigns, i don't play my sorc in bgs.

Nerftheforums

leb91han wrote: »

Nope its not op its just fine. Mag sorc using rune cage + meteor will only kill mag sorcs or stam/mag nb : The only classes he coukd kill even before this combo Tbh Meteor + rune do very low damage to all other 7 classes. They dont feel the combo. Even if u time it well with curse+frag+finisher (which is something very hard coz i can rarely Time it coz i most of the times get interupted) plz stop with those nerf sorcs plz..... sorc is bad, good players dont feel sorc dmg . Sorc is super easy to kill every one focuses sorcs as first target coz they drop like a charm. 2 good players will obliterate sorcs in rhe matter of seconds .U wanna nerf something ? Go nerf immortal magplars who keep spaming purges and mistform which should be called “godform” where 10 players take 5 mins to kill him. Or infinity block magdks + godform + wings reflecting ur *** back at ur face . Or nerf stam wardens the immortal stamina class. Leave sorcs alone we took enough nerfs our dmg is crap only can kill any noobs or mag sorcs mag/stam nb coz they r squishy. Any heavy build Don’t dream. I play pc eu server is full of players with 25-28k hp. With that amount they are probably in heavy armor curse 4k frag 4k meteor 5k thats a total of 13k dmg burst its nothing they dont feel it . The game is broken those guys have more health and more mitigation they don’t take high dmg and poor light/medium armors have lower health and take more dmg what a stupid joke.

You have some issues: not full cp, terrible build or l2p issues. My frag has a 16k tootltip non-procced, my meteor 20k, my curse 14k...Idk how the hell you get those low numbers, but you should really investigate in your issues man. My frags hit between 5k to 8k depending on the target. I am using shackel, lich 3 will power on front bar and 1 domi, nothing special.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

I'm saying if you get 100 to 0 by this combo you're not running a sustainable build based on combat using resistance and high impen, and are likely in a build based on permablocking, pure dmg, or built for zerging. I'm also saying that this combo is op.

Talking cp campaigns, i don't play my sorc in bgs.

Nobody is saying that this combo is a big issue when u are full health (even tho in an outnumbered situation it still is), the problem is when u are around 80% health, or 20-22k health, depending on your resistances. 4k of that health just vanish because of mage's wrath, if you get a crit on the frag or meteor (not difficult since reaching more than 40% crit on a sorc requires only to use spell power pots or inner light), the kill is guaranteed against anything that does not have 30k resistances.

DDuke

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

I'm saying if you get 100 to 0 by this combo you're not running a sustainable build based on combat using resistance and high impen, and are likely in a build based on permablocking, pure dmg, or built for zerging. I'm also saying that this combo is op.

Talking cp campaigns, i don't play my sorc in bgs.

But that's the thing, I can be in 7 impen 7 tri-stat glyphs and still get one shot by the combo from a sorc that isn't even max dmg build. This is from PTS:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU

Only way to get tankier on medium armor would be using Protective Jewelry and/or tank sets like Impregnable (though on the 2nd clip my stamblade friend is wearing Impreg) or Brass - but now we're starting to talk about the very kind of low damage tank build that isn't really appealing to play for many people.

Brutusmax1mus

Nerftheforums wrote: »

leb91han wrote: »

Nope its not op its just fine. Mag sorc using rune cage + meteor will only kill mag sorcs or stam/mag nb : The only classes he coukd kill even before this combo Tbh Meteor + rune do very low damage to all other 7 classes. They dont feel the combo. Even if u time it well with curse+frag+finisher (which is something very hard coz i can rarely Time it coz i most of the times get interupted) plz stop with those nerf sorcs plz..... sorc is bad, good players dont feel sorc dmg . Sorc is super easy to kill every one focuses sorcs as first target coz they drop like a charm. 2 good players will obliterate sorcs in rhe matter of seconds .U wanna nerf something ? Go nerf immortal magplars who keep spaming purges and mistform which should be called “godform” where 10 players take 5 mins to kill him. Or infinity block magdks + godform + wings reflecting ur *** back at ur face . Or nerf stam wardens the immortal stamina class. Leave sorcs alone we took enough nerfs our dmg is crap only can kill any noobs or mag sorcs mag/stam nb coz they r squishy. Any heavy build Don’t dream. I play pc eu server is full of players with 25-28k hp. With that amount they are probably in heavy armor curse 4k frag 4k meteor 5k thats a total of 13k dmg burst its nothing they dont feel it . The game is broken those guys have more health and more mitigation they don’t take high dmg and poor light/medium armors have lower health and take more dmg what a stupid joke.

You have some issues: not full cp, terrible build or l2p issues. My frag has a 16k tootltip non-procced, my meteor 20k, my curse 14k...Idk how the hell you get those low numbers, but you should really investigate in your issues man. My frags hit between 5k to 8k depending on the target. I am using shackel, lich 3 will power on front bar and 1 domi, nothing special.

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

I'm saying if you get 100 to 0 by this combo you're not running a sustainable build based on combat using resistance and high impen, and are likely in a build based on permablocking, pure dmg, or built for zerging. I'm also saying that this combo is op.

Talking cp campaigns, i don't play my sorc in bgs.

Nobody is saying that this combo is a big issue when u are full health (even tho in an outnumbered situation it still is), the problem is when u are around 80% health, or 20-22k health, depending on your resistances. 4k of that health just vanish because of mage's wrath, if you get a crit on the frag or meteor (not difficult since reaching more than 40% crit on a sorc requires only to use spell power pots or inner light), the kill is guaranteed against anything that does not have 30k resistances.

I know, i have said many times the combo is over powered. I love it though lol.

Waffennacht

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

I'm saying if you get 100 to 0 by this combo you're not running a sustainable build based on combat using resistance and high impen, and are likely in a build based on permablocking, pure dmg, or built for zerging. I'm also saying that this combo is op.

Talking cp campaigns, i don't play my sorc in bgs.

But that's the thing, I can be in 7 impen 7 tri-stat glyphs and still get one shot by the combo from a sorc that isn't even max dmg build. This is from PTS:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU

Only way to get tankier on medium armor would be using Protective Jewelry and/or tank sets like Impregnable (though on the 2nd clip my stamblade friend is wearing Impreg) or Brass - but now we're starting to talk about the very kind of low damage tank build that isn't really appealing to play for many people.

You're thinking wrong direction.

Against builds that can 100-0 you, you use an immovable pot and 100-0 them.

You do not try to out defense them, it's not gonna work unless you are like permablocker rock type thing.

Also why duels are absolutely sh for balance. In a BGs you gotta be able to kill like 4 more peeps, not just 1 via an expensive ult and a hard CC, meaning even if he 100-0s a player, he can't really survive the others.

Oh and mNB with Merc or a mDK with petrify and Leap/meteor have been doing this for far longer than mSorc

Ishammael

Waffennacht wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

I'm saying if you get 100 to 0 by this combo you're not running a sustainable build based on combat using resistance and high impen, and are likely in a build based on permablocking, pure dmg, or built for zerging. I'm also saying that this combo is op.

Talking cp campaigns, i don't play my sorc in bgs.

But that's the thing, I can be in 7 impen 7 tri-stat glyphs and still get one shot by the combo from a sorc that isn't even max dmg build. This is from PTS:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU

Only way to get tankier on medium armor would be using Protective Jewelry and/or tank sets like Impregnable (though on the 2nd clip my stamblade friend is wearing Impreg) or Brass - but now we're starting to talk about the very kind of low damage tank build that isn't really appealing to play for many people.

You're thinking wrong direction.

Against builds that can 100-0 you, you use an immovable pot and 100-0 them.

You do not try to out defense them, it's not gonna work unless you are like permablocker rock type thing.

Also why duels are absolutely sh for balance. In a BGs you gotta be able to kill like 4 more peeps, not just 1 via an expensive ult and a hard CC, meaning even if he 100-0s a player, he can't really survive the others.

Oh and mNB with Merc or a mDK with petrify and Leap/meteor have been doing this for far longer than mSorc

You're wrong.
The fossilize meteor combo is nowhere near curse+fury+cage+meteor. The output from the sorc is probably 2x, with the added advantage that a sorc can spec further into dmg than a dk since they have mobility.

Waffennacht

Ishammael wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

I'm saying if you get 100 to 0 by this combo you're not running a sustainable build based on combat using resistance and high impen, and are likely in a build based on permablocking, pure dmg, or built for zerging. I'm also saying that this combo is op.

Talking cp campaigns, i don't play my sorc in bgs.

But that's the thing, I can be in 7 impen 7 tri-stat glyphs and still get one shot by the combo from a sorc that isn't even max dmg build. This is from PTS:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU

Only way to get tankier on medium armor would be using Protective Jewelry and/or tank sets like Impregnable (though on the 2nd clip my stamblade friend is wearing Impreg) or Brass - but now we're starting to talk about the very kind of low damage tank build that isn't really appealing to play for many people.

You're thinking wrong direction.

Against builds that can 100-0 you, you use an immovable pot and 100-0 them.

You do not try to out defense them, it's not gonna work unless you are like permablocker rock type thing.

Also why duels are absolutely sh for balance. In a BGs you gotta be able to kill like 4 more peeps, not just 1 via an expensive ult and a hard CC, meaning even if he 100-0s a player, he can't really survive the others.

Oh and mNB with Merc or a mDK with petrify and Leap/meteor have been doing this for far longer than mSorc

You're wrong.
The fossilize meteor combo is nowhere near curse+fury+cage+meteor. The output from the sorc is probably 2x, with the added advantage that a sorc can spec further into dmg than a dk since they have mobility.

20k or 40k, dead is dead.

My point is, 100-0 is nothing new at all (I guess I didn't include the 9k+ whip that usually preceeds the Leap)

While I do agree the Sorc combo is better than the mDK, all 3 classes (F you Templars and Wardens) can 100-0 an opponent via unblockable undodgeable hard CCs

I feel like stamina's undodgeable spin2win should be mentioned as well.

Looks to me, unavoidable dmg is the new meta

Ragnarock41

oxygen_thief wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

oxygen_thief wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Rolling does nothing to avoid a cage. It can not be dodged.

then my cage is broken because i cant stun targets with cc immunity or we are playing different games

Rolling does not give CC immunity.

You can not stun a target with CC immunity, but that has nothing to do with rolling.

but it grants 3 sec of immunity doesnt it?

no it does not. you are mistaken friend. I can petrify my foes in the middle of their dodge roll just fine, as long as they do not have CC immunity.

Lexxypwns

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

To be honest, outside of stamblade the meta since like Morrowind has been to wear one or multiple defensive sets or heavy armor

Aedaryl

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

I'm saying if you get 100 to 0 by this combo you're not running a sustainable build based on combat using resistance and high impen, and are likely in a build based on permablocking, pure dmg, or built for zerging. I'm also saying that this combo is op.

Talking cp campaigns, i don't play my sorc in bgs.

But that's the thing, I can be in 7 impen 7 tri-stat glyphs and still get one shot by the combo from a sorc that isn't even max dmg build. This is from PTS:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU

Only way to get tankier on medium armor would be using Protective Jewelry and/or tank sets like Impregnable (though on the 2nd clip my stamblade friend is wearing Impreg) or Brass - but now we're starting to talk about the very kind of low damage tank build that isn't really appealing to play for many people.

This is a full spell damage build, we can see it by the fact you runned 10k stam and u run elemental drain for sustain. 10k stam is not viable.

Also, when mura is dead at the end of your clip we can see you have an out of fight regen (meaning higher than combat regen) of 38 303 - 37 021 = 1282.

ak_pvp

I argued that cage on a sorc was OP when it was first implemented, since the burst that a sorc could setup had no place also being unblock/dodgable. But conceded that it did need a way to hit since they nerfed frags.

The damage itself isn't much, but it makes it worth using over reach, and as such, the strong stun shows.

Minalan

DDuke wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

First, i assumed this was a serious necro.

How about making a build that does not get destroyed by litterally the OLDEST universal ultimate burst combo in the game?

If you cant take a single Meteor to the face, then you need to look at your own build, and how much you rely on Dodge / Block to mitigate damage.

Making such a build was pretty simple before patch, but after you add 9-10k tooltip dmg to that (i.e. the Summerset Rune Cage changes) it becomes a matter of having to play a tank build to survive the burst.

In retrospect, the Rune Cage now dealing 9-10k tooltip dmg is the same as if they had added a patch note for NB that said: "Incap now deals 60% more damage" - that's how much extra burst the sorc combo got from Rune Cage change alone (more light attack dmg adds even more to it).


Such burst wouldn't be a problem if it actually required some skill to land and/or could be countered somehow by classes without access to Shimmering Shield/Wings (to prevent Frag/light attack portion of burst)/Ritual (to get rid of Curse/Wrath) - at the moment it just converts medium armor stamblades/sorcs into free AP.

Here we go again with the 9-10K tooltip narrative.

Come on man.

amir412

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

This is the most absurd combination in the game. The ONLY counter to the Meteor + [unblockable stun skill] combination is immovable. Why in the world would you add unblockable skills to this game, ZOS?

You went ahead and gave the absolute best burst timing ultimate in the game (meteor) skills that guarantee it will hit for max damage unless immovable is active. This combination was annoying at first, but now it's running rampant in Xbox NA and any time immovable isn't active, you are susceptible to full damage from meteor.

Why? cuz perma block abusers.
I'm fine with that, and im not even using that combo myself.

Betsararie

OP's never heard of #breakfree or #resourcemanagement.

They exist, OP. You add some more resistances to your tank if it's that much of an issue for you.

Ishammael

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

I'm saying if you get 100 to 0 by this combo you're not running a sustainable build based on combat using resistance and high impen, and are likely in a build based on permablocking, pure dmg, or built for zerging. I'm also saying that this combo is op.

Talking cp campaigns, i don't play my sorc in bgs.

But that's the thing, I can be in 7 impen 7 tri-stat glyphs and still get one shot by the combo from a sorc that isn't even max dmg build. This is from PTS:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU

Only way to get tankier on medium armor would be using Protective Jewelry and/or tank sets like Impregnable (though on the 2nd clip my stamblade friend is wearing Impreg) or Brass - but now we're starting to talk about the very kind of low damage tank build that isn't really appealing to play for many people.

You're thinking wrong direction.

Against builds that can 100-0 you, you use an immovable pot and 100-0 them.

You do not try to out defense them, it's not gonna work unless you are like permablocker rock type thing.

Also why duels are absolutely sh for balance. In a BGs you gotta be able to kill like 4 more peeps, not just 1 via an expensive ult and a hard CC, meaning even if he 100-0s a player, he can't really survive the others.

Oh and mNB with Merc or a mDK with petrify and Leap/meteor have been doing this for far longer than mSorc

You're wrong.
The fossilize meteor combo is nowhere near curse+fury+cage+meteor. The output from the sorc is probably 2x, with the added advantage that a sorc can spec further into dmg than a dk since they have mobility.

20k or 40k, dead is dead.

My point is, 100-0 is nothing new at all (I guess I didn't include the 9k+ whip that usually preceeds the Leap)

While I do agree the Sorc combo is better than the mDK, all 3 classes (F you Templars and Wardens) can 100-0 an opponent via unblockable undodgeable hard CCs

I feel like stamina's undodgeable spin2win should be mentioned as well.

Looks to me, unavoidable dmg is the new meta

That's the thing, 20k isn't dead. 40k almost always is. I know what you're trying to say about dead is dead, but these unblockable combos are not the same.

tannips

Learn to read your opponent. Break free when you get cc'd/feared/whatever. I know it's not always a guarantee as people time meteor so you don't have time to react to the cc, but there's nothing to really look at. It's a good combo. Build for more tankiness if you find yourself dying to it on the regular. It's really not that different from using a stun and using any other offensive ult.

Cathexis

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

No. Then we should nerf NBs too. Why is NB fear an AOE unblockable hard cc comboed with ults that guarantee ults will hit for max damage unless immovable is active. The only counter to this is immovable. Anytime immovable isn't active, you are susceptive to full damage from meteor/incap. This is the game's most absurd combination. So, no.

CC's in general in this game are a tricky situation, and a bit over the top. On the one hand I do see the need for CC, and to remove CC stuns etc (as a general idea) would diminish elements of the game. I agree that so much hinges on having something like immovable up as much as possible and to that end it is frustrating because you are constantly having to sustain it and often it is an inconvenient skill to sustain because of costs and relatively short CC immunity. Stacked onto gap closer snares, generally it all seems too much. I've always thought that any combo like this that can't be counter-played is over the top, but we have long since moved past the days where you could evade the vast majority of things with skilled play without hinging on something like cloak or a super stacked unkillable tank build.

Fear in general has persisted as one of the longest standing annoyances in and of itself simply because of it takes so long to break. In general, I think CCs and stuns need to be more easily counterplayed, in terms of cost to break and the immunity that follows (in that breaking anything should constitute a general immunity rather than a player specific immunity, as this prevents multiple players from repeatedly stacking you with CC, a large part of the problem) and also that global unavoidable gap closer snaring was the worst thing that ever happened to this game. In general I think that the former of those two would remedy at least some of the problem with this combo.

DDuke

Waffennacht wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

I'm saying if you get 100 to 0 by this combo you're not running a sustainable build based on combat using resistance and high impen, and are likely in a build based on permablocking, pure dmg, or built for zerging. I'm also saying that this combo is op.

Talking cp campaigns, i don't play my sorc in bgs.

But that's the thing, I can be in 7 impen 7 tri-stat glyphs and still get one shot by the combo from a sorc that isn't even max dmg build. This is from PTS:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU

Only way to get tankier on medium armor would be using Protective Jewelry and/or tank sets like Impregnable (though on the 2nd clip my stamblade friend is wearing Impreg) or Brass - but now we're starting to talk about the very kind of low damage tank build that isn't really appealing to play for many people.

You're thinking wrong direction.

Against builds that can 100-0 you, you use an immovable pot and 100-0 them.

You do not try to out defense them, it's not gonna work unless you are like permablocker rock type thing.

Also why duels are absolutely sh for balance. In a BGs you gotta be able to kill like 4 more peeps, not just 1 via an expensive ult and a hard CC, meaning even if he 100-0s a player, he can't really survive the others.

Oh and mNB with Merc or a mDK with petrify and Leap/meteor have been doing this for far longer than mSorc

Slight problem: you don't 100>0 a sorc unless they screw up big time & forget to shield. And that's in a 1v1 situations.


And yeah, you're right - that's just a duel.

It's worse in open world when I'm in a 1vX situation and those sorcs can freely line up their burst as I try to use my main defensive mechanics (dodge roll/cloak) to survive the little zerg after me.


mNB doesn't have undodgeable/unblockable 28m CC, my counterplay to them is staying at range to avoid Incap & dodge rolling after every Lotus Fan.

mDK doesn't have undodgeable/unblockable 28m CC, my counterplay to them is staying at range to avoid Petrify & dodge rolling away if I do get hit by it (and hope they don't Leap, which has a strong chance of killing me esp. with Skoria proc).


Above two are balanced (and also far less damage btw).

Lexxypwns wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

To be honest, outside of stamblade the meta since like Morrowind has been to wear one or multiple defensive sets or heavy armor

Sure, and that's also the reason I'm unable to enjoy any other stamina build at the moment (I've tried all of them in dozens of different non-tank medium armor setups).

Words can't convey how much the current meta disgusts me.

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

I'm saying if you get 100 to 0 by this combo you're not running a sustainable build based on combat using resistance and high impen, and are likely in a build based on permablocking, pure dmg, or built for zerging. I'm also saying that this combo is op.

Talking cp campaigns, i don't play my sorc in bgs.

But that's the thing, I can be in 7 impen 7 tri-stat glyphs and still get one shot by the combo from a sorc that isn't even max dmg build. This is from PTS:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU

Only way to get tankier on medium armor would be using Protective Jewelry and/or tank sets like Impregnable (though on the 2nd clip my stamblade friend is wearing Impreg) or Brass - but now we're starting to talk about the very kind of low damage tank build that isn't really appealing to play for many people.

This is a full spell damage build, we can see it by the fact you runned 10k stam and u run elemental drain for sustain. 10k stam is not viable.

Also, when mura is dead at the end of your clip we can see you have an out of fight regen (meaning higher than combat regen) of 38 303 - 37 021 = 1282.

I don't know why you keep spamming that.

Of course it's a full damage build. Spoiler alert: all my builds are full damage. My mDK, magplar builds have the same regen, my Caluurion gankblade has the same regen, my alchemist pigeon cannon warden has the same regen etc etc, I could go on.

Sorc is no special snowflake exception that would mystically require more regen than any other class in the game. If anything it's the complete opposite, since magplars/mDKs/Wardens actually have to tank a lot more damage & spam their defensive skills more to survive (while having no ways to avoid that damage entirely).

I've told you this before, I don't really enjoy repeating myself.

Waffennacht

@DDuke my statement was completely in reference to duels. If I'm my sorc I'll just rtfa from all 3 OW lol.

I do think the sorc combo is better and I think it was done on purpose. I really do believe "balance" in this game is a round robin of whom is gonna be top.

I don't think there's ever been a goal of equality amongst the classes

Arkangeloski

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

This is the most absurd combination in the game. The ONLY counter to the Meteor + [unblockable stun skill] combination is immovable. Why in the world would you add unblockable skills to this game, ZOS?

You went ahead and gave the absolute best burst timing ultimate in the game (meteor) skills that guarantee it will hit for max damage unless immovable is active. This combination was annoying at first, but now it's running rampant in Xbox NA and any time immovable isn't active, you are susceptible to full damage from meteor.

Cc break rune p cc immunity dodgeroll out of meteor since u won't get knocked down, heal heal heal lol

Waffennacht

Arkangeloski wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

This is the most absurd combination in the game. The ONLY counter to the Meteor + [unblockable stun skill] combination is immovable. Why in the world would you add unblockable skills to this game, ZOS?

You went ahead and gave the absolute best burst timing ultimate in the game (meteor) skills that guarantee it will hit for max damage unless immovable is active. This combination was annoying at first, but now it's running rampant in Xbox NA and any time immovable isn't active, you are susceptible to full damage from meteor.

Cc break rune p cc immunity dodgeroll out of meteor since u won't get knocked down, heal heal heal lol

If you can CC break and Dodge roll prior to the comet landing, they timed it wrong

And if you don't die right then with the curse and wrath, they just played the whole darn thing wrong

Emma_Overload

I'm still waiting for my 7.5K Rune Cage to be upgraded to @DDuke 's 10K version...

GrumpyDuckling

tannips wrote: »

Learn to read your opponent. Break free when you get cc'd/feared/whatever. I know it's not always a guarantee as people time meteor so you don't have time to react to the cc, but there's nothing to really look at. It's a good combo. Build for more tankiness if you find yourself dying to it on the regular. It's really not that different from using a stun and using any other offensive ult.

It is totally different than most other offensive ults.

The opponent can cast meteor first, and stun second, meaning they have the luxury of a guaranteed stun at the exact moment before the meteor hits. They don't have that luxury with another ultimate because most of the time they have to use stun first, then activate the ult second, which gives me enough time to break free from the stun.

Lord-Otto

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

tannips wrote: »

Learn to read your opponent. Break free when you get cc'd/feared/whatever. I know it's not always a guarantee as people time meteor so you don't have time to react to the cc, but there's nothing to really look at. It's a good combo. Build for more tankiness if you find yourself dying to it on the regular. It's really not that different from using a stun and using any other offensive ult.

It is totally different than most other offensive ults.

The opponent can cast meteor first, and stun second, meaning they have the luxury of a guaranteed stun at the exact moment before the meteor hits. They don't have that luxury with another ultimate because most of the time they have to use stun first, then activate the ult second, which gives me enough time to break free from the stun.

No. Many ultimates deal high, instant damage and also stun. It's why so many sorcs use Dawnbreaker, a PHYSICAL ult.
Meteor bears the crux of being a bad finisher and a bad burster if you don't have a good unblockable stun.
And a non-damage-dealing stun like Cage lowers burst potential. Sorcs could feel that after Frag stun removal, so getting more damage into the burst was a good idea. Taping it onto an unavoidable skill like Cage is a very unsatisfying solution, however, and competes with Oblivion damage for bad design. Nevertheless, more damage was needed.

Ragnaroek93

I just saw the OP plays on Xbox. Have fun when the patch goes live and sorcs get damage on Runecage, doubled light attack damage, new spammable and 5-5-2 setup

Beardimus

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

Spot on. And actually decent players survive it. Also the NB ultimate is cheap too.

It's funny how people say Sorca are unstoppable of they land their 4 best skills and an ultimate.....i mean......yeah they gunna be right haha. No ultimate and Sorc burst utterly sucks at present (pre patch)

Lord-Otto wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

tannips wrote: »

Learn to read your opponent. Break free when you get cc'd/feared/whatever. I know it's not always a guarantee as people time meteor so you don't have time to react to the cc, but there's nothing to really look at. It's a good combo. Build for more tankiness if you find yourself dying to it on the regular. It's really not that different from using a stun and using any other offensive ult.

It is totally different than most other offensive ults.

The opponent can cast meteor first, and stun second, meaning they have the luxury of a guaranteed stun at the exact moment before the meteor hits. They don't have that luxury with another ultimate because most of the time they have to use stun first, then activate the ult second, which gives me enough time to break free from the stun.

No. Many ultimates deal high, instant damage and also stun. It's why so many sorcs use Dawnbreaker, a PHYSICAL ult.
Meteor bears the crux of being a bad finisher and a bad burster if you don't have a good unblockable stun.
And a non-damage-dealing stun like Cage lowers burst potential. Sorcs could feel that after Frag stun removal, so getting more damage into the burst was a good idea. Taping it onto an unavoidable skill like Cage is a very unsatisfying solution, however, and competes with Oblivion damage for bad design. Nevertheless, more damage was needed.

Spot on too. We needed something but reverting the frag damage would have been nicer than forcing cage on us with its clunky animation.