Meteor + Rune Cage/Petrify/Aspect of Terror Combination Needs to be Looked At

Minalan

Grimick wrote: »

Sorcs are powerful this patch, there is no doubt about that. I'm not totally convinced that they are at the top of the food chain quite yet in open world, but time will tell. This is the very beginning of a new patch and a lot will change in the coming weeks as people improve their builds.

That being said, I haven't really experienced the "horror" that is the rune prison/ meteor. I play a stamblade, but as long as my hots are up it really hasn't been an issue. I haven't died 1v1 to a sorc yet, or at least not to that combo.

Unblockable CC's are an important part of counter play to block oriented builds. Combined with things like meteor, that can be nasty against a squishy build, but the damage is low enough to heal through and fully mitigatable. Running heavy armor, or even enough impen with heals, is generally enough to survive most open world encounters.

The biggest issue with rune cage is the inconsistent lag time when breaking the CC. I think if breaking it was a little smoother then people wouldn't die nearly as much.

^^^ We all think the same thing about fear, I can’t count the times I’ve spent mashing the break key with full stamina while my toon runs around screaming...

thankyourat

Minalan wrote: »

Grimick wrote: »

Sorcs are powerful this patch, there is no doubt about that. I'm not totally convinced that they are at the top of the food chain quite yet in open world, but time will tell. This is the very beginning of a new patch and a lot will change in the coming weeks as people improve their builds.

That being said, I haven't really experienced the "horror" that is the rune prison/ meteor. I play a stamblade, but as long as my hots are up it really hasn't been an issue. I haven't died 1v1 to a sorc yet, or at least not to that combo.

Unblockable CC's are an important part of counter play to block oriented builds. Combined with things like meteor, that can be nasty against a squishy build, but the damage is low enough to heal through and fully mitigatable. Running heavy armor, or even enough impen with heals, is generally enough to survive most open world encounters.

The biggest issue with rune cage is the inconsistent lag time when breaking the CC. I think if breaking it was a little smoother then people wouldn't die nearly as much.

^^^ We all think the same thing about fear, I can’t count the times I’ve spent mashing the break key with full stamina while my toon runs around screaming...

I actually think they fixed the fear cc bug. I haven't been stuck in fear at all during dragon bones. The templar javelin is a different story I've been triple CC'd by that

DDuke

Minalan wrote: »

Grimick wrote: »

Sorcs are powerful this patch, there is no doubt about that. I'm not totally convinced that they are at the top of the food chain quite yet in open world, but time will tell. This is the very beginning of a new patch and a lot will change in the coming weeks as people improve their builds.

That being said, I haven't really experienced the "horror" that is the rune prison/ meteor. I play a stamblade, but as long as my hots are up it really hasn't been an issue. I haven't died 1v1 to a sorc yet, or at least not to that combo.

Unblockable CC's are an important part of counter play to block oriented builds. Combined with things like meteor, that can be nasty against a squishy build, but the damage is low enough to heal through and fully mitigatable. Running heavy armor, or even enough impen with heals, is generally enough to survive most open world encounters.

The biggest issue with rune cage is the inconsistent lag time when breaking the CC. I think if breaking it was a little smoother then people wouldn't die nearly as much.

^^^ We all think the same thing about fear, I can’t count the times I’ve spent mashing the break key with full stamina while my toon runs around screaming...

It's better to live in fear than die in a cage.
(sorry, couldn't resist)

Atleast the former wastes burst momentum by dealing no damage to the target & causing GCD for the NB. I haven't had fear slotted for a looong time, it's always far better to just use Incap or Cloak->SA for stun. Also very easily countered by simply not being within 6m of the NB...

Nicko_Lps

When the game went live, DK nerfs were pleasing the masses.
Nowadays we need DK+Sorc nerfs to please the masses.

NyassaV

ZOS is too embarrsed to revert the Frags nerf so they give rune-cage (undodgabe and unblockable) some nice burst to fix the issue of sorc lacking damage but at the same time not feeling silly about that frags nerf a year ago that no one asked for

Feanor

Nope, as you can see I cloak right after getting the kill, before taking any real damage.

But Sorcs deserve every teabag because they are the „ez mode class“. Right. The cited statement above is very revealing - Rune Cage is OP because you can’t just use your Carte Blanche and escape from the middle of 20+ players so easily any longer.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

Nope, as you can see I cloak right after getting the kill, before taking any real damage.

But Sorcs deserve every teabag because they are the „ez mode class“. Right. The cited statement above is very revealing - Rune Cage is OP because you can’t just use your Carte Blanche and escape from the middle of 20+ players so easily any longer.

Yes, they do and yes they are (now atleast).

There was nothing wrong with sorc in previous patch; in fact, they were already the "natural predators" of bow builds like mine and had a huge advantage against them - but they didn't get free kills and if I played well I could survive.

If I didn't, I'd die (no, there's no "carte blanche" for anything) due to bad movement in cloak, getting revealed by the 20m range det pot or streak & running out of stam spamming dodge roll to not get instagibbed. And that's vs one sorc, when you have a zerg around you it becomes increasingly difficult (and/or if you aggro keep guards & they prevent you from sneaking before you run out of magicka after 2-3 cloaks).

Difficult is good. Impossible isn't, which is what surviving RC combo on a non-tank boils down to right now.


Atleast I can still eventually get the 4375658d "CC immunity" bug that prevents Rune Cages & Fossilizes from working for opponents after dying to either of them several times, but I'd rather just report this bug because DKs don't deserve any nerfs.

I won't though, if that bug is the only thing that allows me to enjoy PvP.

Rianai

DDuke wrote: »

Not really an exaggeration when it's true - there's no average pug out there that can kill a "good" player being carried by a mindless shield spam/megatank build, no matter how many mistakes that "good" player makes.

That's what most builds these days aim towards, zero risk playstyles that still get kills thanks to cheesy spam oriented game mechanics.

Please tell me those 16 different sources of bleeds then

Players aim towards "zero risk playstyles" because "skill" alone isn't something you can rely on in this game. And that's not something new nor solely because of magsorcs. Oneshots from stealth are probably even more a reason for players to play those builds. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of unavoidable mechanics, spammy gameplay and endless fights myself. I just don't think, magsorcs stand out when it comes to unfair and unfun gameplay (from the perspective of the sorc's opponent).

DDuke wrote: »

Lightning Heavy Attack targeting you doesn't break cloak, the splash damage does (there was no friendly player next to me).

Lightning heavies often break my cloak without any other players nearby (Might have changed with Summerset though? Haven't played much since the update).

DDuke wrote: »

Problems arise when you can't dodge mechanics anymore (e.g. Rune Cage).

Also, initial hit from Fury (which was already applied to me) & LA can both be dodged: the only undodgeable things in sorc toolkit are Rune Cage, Curse & Boundless Storm (if someone even runs it). This means I can only blame myself if I die to that after CC breaking from 35%, I should've reacted faster while sorc had GCDs and I didn't.

This is not the case in the video, I react asap (though taken a bit by surprise by getting CC'd when I was supposed to be cloaked) & I'm still dead from 100>0 despite even cloaking after the first kill. It's not even an isolated incident, but more like a common occurrence ever since they made that skill deal damage.

Fury is applied during your break free and before dodge. There is no time for the sorc to apply it inbetween all the other skills (unless a second sorc was attacking you too, but you said that wasn't the case), nor is it shown among your debuffs, but you can clearly see the sorc casting it the moment before you die.

DDuke wrote: »

Who's exaggerating now? Hardly anyone uses cloak for anything but escaping/stam regen, especially now that Ambush breaks it after this patch. Most don't even know how to properly combo skills from it.

Just as I wouldn't call someone using Igneous Shield a "dmg shield build" I wouldn't call a build using cloak for regen/escaping a "stealth build" - that sounds more like a regular meta rollerblade to me.

If Ingenius Shield would be used mainly for the shield and the shield would be actually useful, then yes, it could be considered a shield build. If cloak is mainly used for stealth - and stealth is exactly what allows the regen/reset, not the crit or the resistance buffs from the shadow barrier passive - it is a stealth build. Just because a magsorc is the best at (and most reliant on) shieldstacking, doesn't mean other classes which stack dampen/harness + healing ward can't be considered shield stacking builds. And likewise, just because your build relies more on stealth than other builds, doesn't mean those can't be stealth builds too.

Feanor

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Nope, as you can see I cloak right after getting the kill, before taking any real damage.

But Sorcs deserve every teabag because they are the „ez mode class“. Right. The cited statement above is very revealing - Rune Cage is OP because you can’t just use your Carte Blanche and escape from the middle of 20+ players so easily any longer.

Yes, they do and yes they are (now atleast).

There was nothing wrong with sorc in previous patch; in fact, they were already the "natural predators" of bow builds like mine and had a huge advantage against them - but they didn't get free kills and if I played well I could survive.

If I didn't, I'd die (no, there's no "carte blanche" for anything) due to bad movement in cloak, getting revealed by the 20m range det pot or streak & running out of stam spamming dodge roll to not get instagibbed. And that's vs one sorc, when you have a zerg around you it becomes increasingly difficult (and/or if you aggro keep guards & they prevent you from sneaking before you run out of magicka after 2-3 cloaks).

Difficult is good. Impossible isn't, which is what surviving RC combo on a non-tank boils down to right now.


Atleast I can still eventually get the 4375658d "CC immunity" bug that prevents Rune Cages & Fossilizes from working for opponents after dying to either of them several times, but I'd rather just report this bug because DKs don't deserve any nerfs.

I won't though, if that bug is the only thing that allows me to enjoy PvP.

Please. You wanna tell me you died to Sorc burst 1v1 pre Summerset? I get Rune Cage is frustrating now - but Sorcs certainly weren’t „just fine“ after Morrowind, CWC and DrB.

As for the carte blanche, you said yourself you shouldn’t have died there because you cloaked after the kill. If that’s not a bail out card despite being in the middle of a zerg I don’t know. But maybe I‘m just misunderstanding your argument here.

bardx86

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

They truly are.

Why do you think Youtube/Twitch are filled with magicka sorcs all playing more or less the same build, where as you'll really have to struggle to find even one person playing a bow build for example?

Players gravitate towards easy, that's why you see shield stackers, megatanks & infinite regen rollerblades everywhere.


Previous patch I would've said rollerblade was the easiest class in the game to play, but that honor has to go to sorcs now with the I-Win Cage existing & sending those infinite regen rollerblades to respawn at the nearest keep as well.

No. People gravitate towards playable.

I can assure you my bow build for example is very playable (even with Rune Cage harming it a lot currently, thank god the infinite CC immunity to Rune Cage/Fossilize bug carried over from PTS), yet it isn't meta.

Why? Because it isn't easy to play.

I can say the same about my DW/Bow medium armor stamblade, though that's a bit less playable atm than the bow build since it not only dies to Rune Cage, but gets more easily sloaded as well since it spends more time outside cloak/sneak.


Still, you see people slotting heavy armor or Impregnable/Brass/whatever tank set they can find because it's the easy way to do things and then stacking regen because, again, it's the easy way to do things.


But yes, in a way you might be right: soon these builds will no longer be even playable because no one cares about them when abilities like Rune Cage get mega buffs and they get hardcountered by more and more things when they didn't deserve "hardcounters" in the first place with their limited sustain (which already serves as a "hardcounter").


And after all, why should anyone care about them? Everyone plays a meta tank build or shield stacker after all.

Derra wrote: »

Sorcs playing the same build is just a giant strawman argument which is in no way related to easy/hard to play.
It´s like me saying you´re a typical nb bc you cloak and sneak.

But even if the class got patched easy - you can´t blame the people playing it for it. Most sorcs you meet have been playing the class for ages.

I said "more or less".

For me anything that streaks around and spams shields looks the same, there's virtually no difference in the playstyle employed.


Meanwhile a bowblade for example plays vastly different to the typical 2H/Bow Incap Relentless rollerblade by utilizing entirely different skill combinations and prioritizing kiting & stealth to spamming dodge rolls/surprise attacks.

My DW/Bow (DW/DW occasionally) melee build is also very different since it never uses Incap->Relentless & doesn't spam dodge roll (instead utilizing DW heavy attack weaves just to sustain with 1,2k stam regen).

The kill combo is also vastly different with it requiring Cloak->DW Heavy+SA->Incap(Selene Proc) for one shot.


Can you say the same about sorc? For me to look at sorc differently you'd have to be doing something like a melee heavy armor build with Boundless Storm etc, or I guess overload gank build is also different enough from the usual shield spam sorc.

Rest? Pretty much the same build as far as I'm concerned.

Derra wrote: »

As for your other part - it´s irrelevant how many players are around. If you instagib one out of 5 the fight happened between you and that player. You might or might not be disadvantaged against the other 4 left - depending on their situational awareness.
But you killed the first one from an advantaged position - which is textbook example of a gank.

No, textbook example is this:

TOP DEFINITION
Ganking
It is a word commonly used in online video games, usualy used in an MMORPG. Ganking is the process in which a group of charecters gang up on one or more players that do not have a chance to defend themselves, Or when one high level player does the same action to a player way below his or her own level

If I have better gear than my opponent or I outnumber them, then I'm ganking.

Attacking from stealth isn't "ganking", it's what stealth builds do in all MMOs. Whether people die to that attack or not isn't a factor - after all there are one shots everywhere in ESO with the most deadly ones of them happening out in the open with Rune Cages & Meteors (or even without the Meteor).

Could I have some of what you are smoking? losing a lot of credibility here man. You call sorcs easy mode and your build hard? Seriously? You press 2 attack buttons from stealth with almost no counter play from the opponent and then cloak. How hard is that? As Minalan likes to say GTFO.

DDuke

Rianai wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Not really an exaggeration when it's true - there's no average pug out there that can kill a "good" player being carried by a mindless shield spam/megatank build, no matter how many mistakes that "good" player makes.

That's what most builds these days aim towards, zero risk playstyles that still get kills thanks to cheesy spam oriented game mechanics.

Please tell me those 16 different sources of bleeds then

Players aim towards "zero risk playstyles" because "skill" alone isn't something you can rely on in this game. And that's not something new nor solely because of magsorcs. Oneshots from stealth are probably even more a reason for players to play those builds. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of unavoidable mechanics, spammy gameplay and endless fights myself. I just don't think, magsorcs stand out when it comes to unfair and unfun gameplay (from the perspective of the sorc's opponent).

Oh please. Obviously if I write "16 bleeds" it's a form of humor.

I'm not a new player or someone who wouldn't know the most bleeds you can have at a time on a player is 7 (Blood Craze, Brawler, DW & 2H bleeds, Twin Sisters, Pillars of Nirn & vMSA 2H) though the more realistic number is 2-3 (+sloads & PI).

It's still more than you can outheal on a medium armor dodge roller anyway.

And yes, mag sorc absolutely stands out right now if you play a build reliant on dodge rolls/cloaks.


It might not if you play another tank build (or shield stacker) and aren't getting one shot every time Rune Cage is cast.


There are very, very few people "one shotting" others from stealth right now and I can count with my fingers the names that are actually any good/successful at it.

Those builds are not the reason people play zero risk tank builds. How could they when they aren't even meta?

And "skill" alone has been enough for me to survive on (with just Vigor & Cloak mind you) every meta except the undodgeable Power Lashes & now the undodgeable Rune Cage bursts. You may notice a theme there.

If I don't survive some fights, it was entirely my own fault for not managing my resources better, not bailing when opponent wasn't burstable or simply for reacting too slow.

Those are acceptable conclusions & help me get better just by recognizing failures & working hard to fix them.


What doesn't help me get better is being forced into the same zero risk easymode playstyle most people play by having burst in the game that I cannot avoid or react to.

Rianai wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lightning Heavy Attack targeting you doesn't break cloak, the splash damage does (there was no friendly player next to me).

Lightning heavies often break my cloak without any other players nearby (Might have changed with Summerset though? Haven't played much since the update).

Well, haven't had that happen for multiple patches now. Though it's entirely possible that some instances I've interpreted as det pot cheese have been Lightning Heavy Attacks instead - I wouldn't rule out that possibility.

Rianai wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Problems arise when you can't dodge mechanics anymore (e.g. Rune Cage).

Also, initial hit from Fury (which was already applied to me) & LA can both be dodged: the only undodgeable things in sorc toolkit are Rune Cage, Curse & Boundless Storm (if someone even runs it). This means I can only blame myself if I die to that after CC breaking from 35%, I should've reacted faster while sorc had GCDs and I didn't.

This is not the case in the video, I react asap (though taken a bit by surprise by getting CC'd when I was supposed to be cloaked) & I'm still dead from 100>0 despite even cloaking after the first kill. It's not even an isolated incident, but more like a common occurrence ever since they made that skill deal damage.

Fury is applied during your break free and before dodge. There is no time for the sorc to apply it inbetween all the other skills (unless a second sorc was attacking you too, but you said that wasn't the case), nor is it shown among your debuffs, but you can clearly see the sorc casting it the moment before you die.

Yes, it's applied right as I CC break - but it wouldn't take me from 35->20% (it's only half the damage of Rune Cage). Previous patch I'd also always survive with just a bit of health from the Rune Cage combo not involving Meteor.

Meteor is actually funnily enough easier to deal with as it means Cloak->Block Meteor in cloak->dodge roll out of AoE & back in business as I'm cloaked when the sorc would actually want to Rune Cage me.

This patch just pushes even the regular Rune Cage combo to the range where CC breaking the RC consistently causes a dip into the execute range.

Rianai wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Who's exaggerating now? Hardly anyone uses cloak for anything but escaping/stam regen, especially now that Ambush breaks it after this patch. Most don't even know how to properly combo skills from it.

Just as I wouldn't call someone using Igneous Shield a "dmg shield build" I wouldn't call a build using cloak for regen/escaping a "stealth build" - that sounds more like a regular meta rollerblade to me.

If Ingenius Shield would be used mainly for the shield and the shield would be actually useful, then yes, it could be considered a shield build. If cloak is mainly used for stealth - and stealth is exactly what allows the regen/reset, not the crit or the resistance buffs from the shadow barrier passive - it is a stealth build. Just because a magsorc is the best at (and most reliant on) shieldstacking, doesn't mean other classes which stack dampen/harness + healing ward can't be considered shield stacking builds. And likewise, just because your build relies more on stealth than other builds, doesn't mean those can't be stealth builds too.

They don't build around stealth, their kill potential doesn't depend on it - it's there to supplement the main benefit of those builds: dodge roll. Just like Igneous Shield would be there for buffing DKs healing and not for the shield itself.

And yes, I'd consider my mDK who uses Healing Ward a "dmg shield build" for example, since that's the main defense of the build. I barely block, I rarely dodge, I just Healing Ward.

Just like it goes for rollerblade: dodge dodge dodge dodge dodge dodge cloak dodge dodge dodge dodge Incap Will cloak cloak dodge dodge dodge dodge dodge and so on.

An actual stealth build is more like: sneak asylum snipe cloak cloak sneak asylum snipe dodge roll cloak sneak and so on.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Nope, as you can see I cloak right after getting the kill, before taking any real damage.

But Sorcs deserve every teabag because they are the „ez mode class“. Right. The cited statement above is very revealing - Rune Cage is OP because you can’t just use your Carte Blanche and escape from the middle of 20+ players so easily any longer.

Yes, they do and yes they are (now atleast).

There was nothing wrong with sorc in previous patch; in fact, they were already the "natural predators" of bow builds like mine and had a huge advantage against them - but they didn't get free kills and if I played well I could survive.

If I didn't, I'd die (no, there's no "carte blanche" for anything) due to bad movement in cloak, getting revealed by the 20m range det pot or streak & running out of stam spamming dodge roll to not get instagibbed. And that's vs one sorc, when you have a zerg around you it becomes increasingly difficult (and/or if you aggro keep guards & they prevent you from sneaking before you run out of magicka after 2-3 cloaks).

Difficult is good. Impossible isn't, which is what surviving RC combo on a non-tank boils down to right now.


Atleast I can still eventually get the 4375658d "CC immunity" bug that prevents Rune Cages & Fossilizes from working for opponents after dying to either of them several times, but I'd rather just report this bug because DKs don't deserve any nerfs.

I won't though, if that bug is the only thing that allows me to enjoy PvP.

Please. You wanna tell me you died to Sorc burst 1v1 pre Summerset? I get Rune Cage is frustrating now - but Sorcs certainly weren’t „just fine“ after Morrowind, CWC and DrB.

As for the carte blanche, you said yourself you shouldn’t have died there because you cloaked after the kill. If that’s not a bail out card despite being in the middle of a zerg I don’t know. But maybe I‘m just misunderstanding your argument here.

...yes? I don't play a tank build, sorcs never had trouble killing me.

Or do you think my bowblade survives long vs them? It's just a matter of time before you're out of stam & magicka from spamming dodge rolls on a high damage build, if you fail to escape before then (or surprise them with a Ballista+burst to maybe get through shields) you're dead. It's not really a problem for sorc with det pots slotted and/or Streak to make that happen, but atleast I always had a chance of escaping before this new Rune Cage.


After cloaking in middle of a zerg, you also have to avoid their AoEs/Radiant Magelights & then position yourself for another kill & do it again as they're looking for you. It's not easy and certainly not "carte blanche" even without I-Win buttons like Rune Cage, otherwise more people would be doing it.

DDuke

bardx86 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

They truly are.

Why do you think Youtube/Twitch are filled with magicka sorcs all playing more or less the same build, where as you'll really have to struggle to find even one person playing a bow build for example?

Players gravitate towards easy, that's why you see shield stackers, megatanks & infinite regen rollerblades everywhere.


Previous patch I would've said rollerblade was the easiest class in the game to play, but that honor has to go to sorcs now with the I-Win Cage existing & sending those infinite regen rollerblades to respawn at the nearest keep as well.

No. People gravitate towards playable.

I can assure you my bow build for example is very playable (even with Rune Cage harming it a lot currently, thank god the infinite CC immunity to Rune Cage/Fossilize bug carried over from PTS), yet it isn't meta.

Why? Because it isn't easy to play.

I can say the same about my DW/Bow medium armor stamblade, though that's a bit less playable atm than the bow build since it not only dies to Rune Cage, but gets more easily sloaded as well since it spends more time outside cloak/sneak.


Still, you see people slotting heavy armor or Impregnable/Brass/whatever tank set they can find because it's the easy way to do things and then stacking regen because, again, it's the easy way to do things.


But yes, in a way you might be right: soon these builds will no longer be even playable because no one cares about them when abilities like Rune Cage get mega buffs and they get hardcountered by more and more things when they didn't deserve "hardcounters" in the first place with their limited sustain (which already serves as a "hardcounter").


And after all, why should anyone care about them? Everyone plays a meta tank build or shield stacker after all.

Derra wrote: »

Sorcs playing the same build is just a giant strawman argument which is in no way related to easy/hard to play.
It´s like me saying you´re a typical nb bc you cloak and sneak.

But even if the class got patched easy - you can´t blame the people playing it for it. Most sorcs you meet have been playing the class for ages.

I said "more or less".

For me anything that streaks around and spams shields looks the same, there's virtually no difference in the playstyle employed.


Meanwhile a bowblade for example plays vastly different to the typical 2H/Bow Incap Relentless rollerblade by utilizing entirely different skill combinations and prioritizing kiting & stealth to spamming dodge rolls/surprise attacks.

My DW/Bow (DW/DW occasionally) melee build is also very different since it never uses Incap->Relentless & doesn't spam dodge roll (instead utilizing DW heavy attack weaves just to sustain with 1,2k stam regen).

The kill combo is also vastly different with it requiring Cloak->DW Heavy+SA->Incap(Selene Proc) for one shot.


Can you say the same about sorc? For me to look at sorc differently you'd have to be doing something like a melee heavy armor build with Boundless Storm etc, or I guess overload gank build is also different enough from the usual shield spam sorc.

Rest? Pretty much the same build as far as I'm concerned.

Derra wrote: »

As for your other part - it´s irrelevant how many players are around. If you instagib one out of 5 the fight happened between you and that player. You might or might not be disadvantaged against the other 4 left - depending on their situational awareness.
But you killed the first one from an advantaged position - which is textbook example of a gank.

No, textbook example is this:

TOP DEFINITION
Ganking
It is a word commonly used in online video games, usualy used in an MMORPG. Ganking is the process in which a group of charecters gang up on one or more players that do not have a chance to defend themselves, Or when one high level player does the same action to a player way below his or her own level

If I have better gear than my opponent or I outnumber them, then I'm ganking.

Attacking from stealth isn't "ganking", it's what stealth builds do in all MMOs. Whether people die to that attack or not isn't a factor - after all there are one shots everywhere in ESO with the most deadly ones of them happening out in the open with Rune Cages & Meteors (or even without the Meteor).

Could I have some of what you are smoking? losing a lot of credibility here man. You call sorcs easy mode and your build hard? Seriously? You press 2 attack buttons from stealth with almost no counter play from the opponent and then cloak. How hard is that? As Minalan likes to say GTFO.

If it's so easy why don't you try?

There's a reason why I'm one of the 4-5 people in the entire game playing a build like this while majority of player base plays easy mode sorcs, megatanks & 3k regen rollerblades.

Animus-ESO

DDuke wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

I'm saying if you get 100 to 0 by this combo you're not running a sustainable build based on combat using resistance and high impen, and are likely in a build based on permablocking, pure dmg, or built for zerging. I'm also saying that this combo is op.

Talking cp campaigns, i don't play my sorc in bgs.

But that's the thing, I can be in 7 impen 7 tri-stat glyphs and still get one shot by the combo from a sorc that isn't even max dmg build. This is from PTS:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU

Only way to get tankier on medium armor would be using Protective Jewelry and/or tank sets like Impregnable (though on the 2nd clip my stamblade friend is wearing Impreg) or Brass - but now we're starting to talk about the very kind of low damage tank build that isn't really appealing to play for many people.

You're thinking wrong direction.

Against builds that can 100-0 you, you use an immovable pot and 100-0 them.

You do not try to out defense them, it's not gonna work unless you are like permablocker rock type thing.

Also why duels are absolutely sh for balance. In a BGs you gotta be able to kill like 4 more peeps, not just 1 via an expensive ult and a hard CC, meaning even if he 100-0s a player, he can't really survive the others.

Oh and mNB with Merc or a mDK with petrify and Leap/meteor have been doing this for far longer than mSorc

Slight problem: you don't 100>0 a sorc unless they screw up big time & forget to shield. And that's in a 1v1 situations.


And yeah, you're right - that's just a duel.

It's worse in open world when I'm in a 1vX situation and those sorcs can freely line up their burst as I try to use my main defensive mechanics (dodge roll/cloak) to survive the little zerg after me.


mNB doesn't have undodgeable/unblockable 28m CC, my counterplay to them is staying at range to avoid Incap & dodge rolling after every Lotus Fan.

mDK doesn't have undodgeable/unblockable 28m CC, my counterplay to them is staying at range to avoid Petrify & dodge rolling away if I do get hit by it (and hope they don't Leap, which has a strong chance of killing me esp. with Skoria proc).


Above two are balanced (and also far less damage btw).

Lexxypwns wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

To be honest, outside of stamblade the meta since like Morrowind has been to wear one or multiple defensive sets or heavy armor

Sure, and that's also the reason I'm unable to enjoy any other stamina build at the moment (I've tried all of them in dozens of different non-tank medium armor setups).

Words can't convey how much the current meta disgusts me.

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

Waffennacht wrote: »

So like Sorcs can do what every NB and DK does in duels

Meh, nothing new to me. Good players have used such combos for years

So we're at a point where players who refuse to play meta tank builds (or mag build with shield stack) to avoid instagibs are considered bad players with bad builds?

Perhaps you can see why people would object to the current "balance" then.


I'm fine with high dmg builds carrying a higher risk & requiring much more effort when it comes to staying alive, but the new Rune Cage is taking it too far and doesn't just make it difficult, but impossible (even with 7 impen 25k health & min-max'd defensive CPs).

I'm saying if you get 100 to 0 by this combo you're not running a sustainable build based on combat using resistance and high impen, and are likely in a build based on permablocking, pure dmg, or built for zerging. I'm also saying that this combo is op.

Talking cp campaigns, i don't play my sorc in bgs.

But that's the thing, I can be in 7 impen 7 tri-stat glyphs and still get one shot by the combo from a sorc that isn't even max dmg build. This is from PTS:
https://youtu.be/NhH3-fOLMeU

Only way to get tankier on medium armor would be using Protective Jewelry and/or tank sets like Impregnable (though on the 2nd clip my stamblade friend is wearing Impreg) or Brass - but now we're starting to talk about the very kind of low damage tank build that isn't really appealing to play for many people.

This is a full spell damage build, we can see it by the fact you runned 10k stam and u run elemental drain for sustain. 10k stam is not viable.

Also, when mura is dead at the end of your clip we can see you have an out of fight regen (meaning higher than combat regen) of 38 303 - 37 021 = 1282.

I don't know why you keep spamming that.

Of course it's a full damage build. Spoiler alert: all my builds are full damage. My mDK, magplar builds have the same regen, my Caluurion gankblade has the same regen, my alchemist pigeon cannon warden has the same regen etc etc, I could go on.

Sorc is no special snowflake exception that would mystically require more regen than any other class in the game. If anything it's the complete opposite, since magplars/mDKs/Wardens actually have to tank a lot more damage & spam their defensive skills more to survive (while having no ways to avoid that damage entirely).

I've told you this before, I don't really enjoy repeating myself.

What you said is completely right. A sorc can wear all divine, spam sheilds and be tankier then most dks with no mobility. Its ***. Sheilds need to obey resistance rules. They should be subject to crit and crit resistance

Feanor

DDuke wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

They truly are.

Why do you think Youtube/Twitch are filled with magicka sorcs all playing more or less the same build, where as you'll really have to struggle to find even one person playing a bow build for example?

Players gravitate towards easy, that's why you see shield stackers, megatanks & infinite regen rollerblades everywhere.


Previous patch I would've said rollerblade was the easiest class in the game to play, but that honor has to go to sorcs now with the I-Win Cage existing & sending those infinite regen rollerblades to respawn at the nearest keep as well.

No. People gravitate towards playable.

I can assure you my bow build for example is very playable (even with Rune Cage harming it a lot currently, thank god the infinite CC immunity to Rune Cage/Fossilize bug carried over from PTS), yet it isn't meta.

Why? Because it isn't easy to play.

I can say the same about my DW/Bow medium armor stamblade, though that's a bit less playable atm than the bow build since it not only dies to Rune Cage, but gets more easily sloaded as well since it spends more time outside cloak/sneak.


Still, you see people slotting heavy armor or Impregnable/Brass/whatever tank set they can find because it's the easy way to do things and then stacking regen because, again, it's the easy way to do things.


But yes, in a way you might be right: soon these builds will no longer be even playable because no one cares about them when abilities like Rune Cage get mega buffs and they get hardcountered by more and more things when they didn't deserve "hardcounters" in the first place with their limited sustain (which already serves as a "hardcounter").


And after all, why should anyone care about them? Everyone plays a meta tank build or shield stacker after all.

Derra wrote: »

Sorcs playing the same build is just a giant strawman argument which is in no way related to easy/hard to play.
It´s like me saying you´re a typical nb bc you cloak and sneak.

But even if the class got patched easy - you can´t blame the people playing it for it. Most sorcs you meet have been playing the class for ages.

I said "more or less".

For me anything that streaks around and spams shields looks the same, there's virtually no difference in the playstyle employed.


Meanwhile a bowblade for example plays vastly different to the typical 2H/Bow Incap Relentless rollerblade by utilizing entirely different skill combinations and prioritizing kiting & stealth to spamming dodge rolls/surprise attacks.

My DW/Bow (DW/DW occasionally) melee build is also very different since it never uses Incap->Relentless & doesn't spam dodge roll (instead utilizing DW heavy attack weaves just to sustain with 1,2k stam regen).

The kill combo is also vastly different with it requiring Cloak->DW Heavy+SA->Incap(Selene Proc) for one shot.


Can you say the same about sorc? For me to look at sorc differently you'd have to be doing something like a melee heavy armor build with Boundless Storm etc, or I guess overload gank build is also different enough from the usual shield spam sorc.

Rest? Pretty much the same build as far as I'm concerned.

Derra wrote: »

As for your other part - it´s irrelevant how many players are around. If you instagib one out of 5 the fight happened between you and that player. You might or might not be disadvantaged against the other 4 left - depending on their situational awareness.
But you killed the first one from an advantaged position - which is textbook example of a gank.

No, textbook example is this:

TOP DEFINITION
Ganking
It is a word commonly used in online video games, usualy used in an MMORPG. Ganking is the process in which a group of charecters gang up on one or more players that do not have a chance to defend themselves, Or when one high level player does the same action to a player way below his or her own level

If I have better gear than my opponent or I outnumber them, then I'm ganking.

Attacking from stealth isn't "ganking", it's what stealth builds do in all MMOs. Whether people die to that attack or not isn't a factor - after all there are one shots everywhere in ESO with the most deadly ones of them happening out in the open with Rune Cages & Meteors (or even without the Meteor).

Could I have some of what you are smoking? losing a lot of credibility here man. You call sorcs easy mode and your build hard? Seriously? You press 2 attack buttons from stealth with almost no counter play from the opponent and then cloak. How hard is that? As Minalan likes to say GTFO.

If it's so easy why don't you try?

There's a reason why I'm one of the 4-5 people in the entire game playing a build like this while majority of player base plays easy mode sorcs, megatanks & 3k regen rollerblades.

Try an „ez mode Sorc“ with only Hardened and Healing Ward in noCP. Or ist that too meta also? Tbh, maybe you shouldn’t judge everything through your medium armor/bow lenses.

As for escaping your zerg scenario, of course you expected to get away just by cloaking. Else you wouldn’t complain about RC. You know the other fabled counters are lacking.

IZZEFlameLash

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

https://youtu.be/iEzSDS5yWqI

This is a textbook definition of irony right there.

I´m glad you put the instakill snipe in the video. I´m laughing tears.

"Instakill", I actually didn't land my combo properly there (was too close) and the 19k health lvl 35 player lived after the first burst & I had to light attack+bombard again for the kill (luckily he didn't have Rally & couldn't heal up to full after that initial burst). All of that is also avoidable/outshieldable/blockable and you see me cancel many snipes before that kill because targets were badly positioned or had too much health (or dmg shield up).

See, unlike the sorc burst mine actually takes some skill to land and has counterplay - where as any random sorc can get a kill on a medium armor build now thanks to Rune Cage, while also having access to 30k+ shield stacks that prevent the same from happening to them.

That's textbook definition of bad balance.

Lol, what? Sorc combo requires timing unlike bowblade you play where timing is not really an issue other than potential response to you by people next to your supposed target. And Sorc combo takes much longer to line up 1v1, 1vX or XvX. Your bow ganker build doesn't really have to do the setup other than stealth and gear it up. Sorc combo actually takes skill which is what sets bad Sorcs and good Sorcs apart. Don't even. Besides, Snipe is a homing arrow without much trouble firing unlike C.Frag.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

They truly are.

Why do you think Youtube/Twitch are filled with magicka sorcs all playing more or less the same build, where as you'll really have to struggle to find even one person playing a bow build for example?

Players gravitate towards easy, that's why you see shield stackers, megatanks & infinite regen rollerblades everywhere.


Previous patch I would've said rollerblade was the easiest class in the game to play, but that honor has to go to sorcs now with the I-Win Cage existing & sending those infinite regen rollerblades to respawn at the nearest keep as well.

No. People gravitate towards playable.

I can assure you my bow build for example is very playable (even with Rune Cage harming it a lot currently, thank god the infinite CC immunity to Rune Cage/Fossilize bug carried over from PTS), yet it isn't meta.

Why? Because it isn't easy to play.

I can say the same about my DW/Bow medium armor stamblade, though that's a bit less playable atm than the bow build since it not only dies to Rune Cage, but gets more easily sloaded as well since it spends more time outside cloak/sneak.


Still, you see people slotting heavy armor or Impregnable/Brass/whatever tank set they can find because it's the easy way to do things and then stacking regen because, again, it's the easy way to do things.


But yes, in a way you might be right: soon these builds will no longer be even playable because no one cares about them when abilities like Rune Cage get mega buffs and they get hardcountered by more and more things when they didn't deserve "hardcounters" in the first place with their limited sustain (which already serves as a "hardcounter").


And after all, why should anyone care about them? Everyone plays a meta tank build or shield stacker after all.

Derra wrote: »

Sorcs playing the same build is just a giant strawman argument which is in no way related to easy/hard to play.
It´s like me saying you´re a typical nb bc you cloak and sneak.

But even if the class got patched easy - you can´t blame the people playing it for it. Most sorcs you meet have been playing the class for ages.

I said "more or less".

For me anything that streaks around and spams shields looks the same, there's virtually no difference in the playstyle employed.


Meanwhile a bowblade for example plays vastly different to the typical 2H/Bow Incap Relentless rollerblade by utilizing entirely different skill combinations and prioritizing kiting & stealth to spamming dodge rolls/surprise attacks.

My DW/Bow (DW/DW occasionally) melee build is also very different since it never uses Incap->Relentless & doesn't spam dodge roll (instead utilizing DW heavy attack weaves just to sustain with 1,2k stam regen).

The kill combo is also vastly different with it requiring Cloak->DW Heavy+SA->Incap(Selene Proc) for one shot.


Can you say the same about sorc? For me to look at sorc differently you'd have to be doing something like a melee heavy armor build with Boundless Storm etc, or I guess overload gank build is also different enough from the usual shield spam sorc.

Rest? Pretty much the same build as far as I'm concerned.

Derra wrote: »

As for your other part - it´s irrelevant how many players are around. If you instagib one out of 5 the fight happened between you and that player. You might or might not be disadvantaged against the other 4 left - depending on their situational awareness.
But you killed the first one from an advantaged position - which is textbook example of a gank.

No, textbook example is this:

TOP DEFINITION
Ganking
It is a word commonly used in online video games, usualy used in an MMORPG. Ganking is the process in which a group of charecters gang up on one or more players that do not have a chance to defend themselves, Or when one high level player does the same action to a player way below his or her own level

If I have better gear than my opponent or I outnumber them, then I'm ganking.

Attacking from stealth isn't "ganking", it's what stealth builds do in all MMOs. Whether people die to that attack or not isn't a factor - after all there are one shots everywhere in ESO with the most deadly ones of them happening out in the open with Rune Cages & Meteors (or even without the Meteor).

Could I have some of what you are smoking? losing a lot of credibility here man. You call sorcs easy mode and your build hard? Seriously? You press 2 attack buttons from stealth with almost no counter play from the opponent and then cloak. How hard is that? As Minalan likes to say GTFO.

If it's so easy why don't you try?

There's a reason why I'm one of the 4-5 people in the entire game playing a build like this while majority of player base plays easy mode sorcs, megatanks & 3k regen rollerblades.

Try an „ez mode Sorc“ with only Hardened and Healing Ward in noCP. Or ist that too meta also? Tbh, maybe you shouldn’t judge everything through your medium armor/bow lenses.

As for escaping your zerg scenario, of course you expected to get away just by cloaking. Else you wouldn’t complain about RC. You know the other fabled counters are lacking.

What medium armor/bow lenses? I play 10 characters (mag/stam of each class) & my 2nd latest video was a light armor destro/resto mDK (which I do plan to update for this patch) with Healing Ward based defense.

The only "lenses" you can accuse me of having is non-meta ones, I'm trying to promote less popular playstyles/builds to make PvP more interesting in Cyrodiil (rather than see the same builds over and over and over again which is b.o.r.i.n.g.).

Of course I'll always complain about things that make meta more powerful & suppress the non-meta.


And yes, I do expect to maybe cloak away (if I don't get det potted/AoE'd) from the zerg because that's just my playstyle: high risk gameplay with the potential for huge reward. Always has been my playstyle, regardless of which class/build I play.

It fails very often believe it or not, but besides instances where I get hit by Rune Cage bull*** I can always think of ways of how I could've survived & then play better next time.

There's no better feeling than sniping someone who thinks they're safe inside an enemy keep, surrounded by fellow zerglings & friendly NPCs and then escaping without dying (and maybe picking off a couple more kills as people chase you and expect you to play like every other NB who only uses stealth to escape when outnumbered).

DDuke

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

https://youtu.be/iEzSDS5yWqI

This is a textbook definition of irony right there.

I´m glad you put the instakill snipe in the video. I´m laughing tears.

"Instakill", I actually didn't land my combo properly there (was too close) and the 19k health lvl 35 player lived after the first burst & I had to light attack+bombard again for the kill (luckily he didn't have Rally & couldn't heal up to full after that initial burst). All of that is also avoidable/outshieldable/blockable and you see me cancel many snipes before that kill because targets were badly positioned or had too much health (or dmg shield up).

See, unlike the sorc burst mine actually takes some skill to land and has counterplay - where as any random sorc can get a kill on a medium armor build now thanks to Rune Cage, while also having access to 30k+ shield stacks that prevent the same from happening to them.

That's textbook definition of bad balance.

Lol, what? Sorc combo requires timing unlike bowblade you play where timing is not really an issue other than potential response to you by people next to your supposed target. And Sorc combo takes much longer to line up 1v1, 1vX or XvX. Your bow ganker build doesn't really have to do the setup other than stealth and gear it up. Sorc combo actually takes skill which is what sets bad Sorcs and good Sorcs apart. Don't even. Besides, Snipe is a homing arrow without much trouble firing unlike C.Frag.

If you don't time Asylum Snipe correctly and position right, you will fail miserably with it, get revealed & most likely killed if you're inexperienced with the type of playstyle.

I even made a tutorial video on the correct distance etc for the combo because it's extremely easy to get it wrong & mess it up entirely.


And no, hitting Rune Cage & then basically anything+Wrath doesn't really require any particular amount of skill. Keep in mind you don't need the full combo with Meteor to kill a non-tank character - in fact you don't even need Curse for that: just LA+Cage+LA+Frag+LA+Wrath.

It's why sorc PvP videos are the most common ones out there (note: there are some actual good sorc players, but every patch it gets harder & harder to tell them apart as the skill floor keeps getting raised).

wheem_ESO

You don't even need meteor to kill most people with a Rune Cage combo in BGs. I'm 100% fine with a nerf to unblockable CC - especially as someone who plays Magicka setups*, including Magicka Sorcerer - but it doesn't need to be something that's done in a vacuum (for example, blocking will need nerfs to the damage reduction, sustainability, or both...which should happen anyway).

It's also not like this is some kind of Magicka-only phenomenon. In fact, if we're worried about unblocked Ult damage, it's typically a bigger issue against Stamina setups than it is Magicka ones. Meteor is extremely obvious, and is probably only going to be unblockable-combo'd by a Magicka Sorcerer (DK and NB are more likely to use class ultimates, and I don't know the last time I got hit by a Templar using Meteor + Vampire Drain). But when it comes to Dawnbreaker...you just have to get lucky on the block timing. There's not going to be any advanced warning, and it's going to be coming more frequently than a meteor is. And if it's a Stamina Sorcerer, DK, or Nightblade, it can also be combined with unblockable CC (or just kept in reserve until a Dizzying Swing lands).

*Being on a Magicka setup and getting hit with unavoidable CC every ~6 seconds, is basically a countdown to your guaranteed death. You'll either die in the associated combo, even if you break free (since you often can't afford to dodge roll afterward like Stamina setups can), or you'll die on the first one of them that you can't break, which is probably the third (or second, depending on build and whether or not you had full stam at the start of the fight).

IZZEFlameLash

DDuke wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

https://youtu.be/iEzSDS5yWqI

This is a textbook definition of irony right there.

I´m glad you put the instakill snipe in the video. I´m laughing tears.

"Instakill", I actually didn't land my combo properly there (was too close) and the 19k health lvl 35 player lived after the first burst & I had to light attack+bombard again for the kill (luckily he didn't have Rally & couldn't heal up to full after that initial burst). All of that is also avoidable/outshieldable/blockable and you see me cancel many snipes before that kill because targets were badly positioned or had too much health (or dmg shield up).

See, unlike the sorc burst mine actually takes some skill to land and has counterplay - where as any random sorc can get a kill on a medium armor build now thanks to Rune Cage, while also having access to 30k+ shield stacks that prevent the same from happening to them.

That's textbook definition of bad balance.

Lol, what? Sorc combo requires timing unlike bowblade you play where timing is not really an issue other than potential response to you by people next to your supposed target. And Sorc combo takes much longer to line up 1v1, 1vX or XvX. Your bow ganker build doesn't really have to do the setup other than stealth and gear it up. Sorc combo actually takes skill which is what sets bad Sorcs and good Sorcs apart. Don't even. Besides, Snipe is a homing arrow without much trouble firing unlike C.Frag.

If you don't time Asylum Snipe correctly and position right, you will fail miserably with it, get revealed & most likely killed if you're inexperienced with the type of playstyle.

I even made a tutorial video on the correct distance etc for the combo because it's extremely easy to get it wrong & mess it up entirely.


And no, hitting Rune Cage & then basically anything+Wrath doesn't really require any particular amount of skill. Keep in mind you don't need the full combo with Meteor to kill a non-tank character - in fact you don't even need Curse for that: just LA+Cage+LA+Frag+LA+Wrath.

It's why sorc PvP videos are the most common ones out there (note: there are some actual good sorc players, but every patch it gets harder & harder to tell them apart as the skill floor keeps getting raised).

Lol what? You are being dishonest again, citing the number of videos. Maybe people make videos with these classes because it is more interesting than their 1-2-dead enemy Stamblade footages? And playing not top class and showing how you do well with highlights is more entertaining/display your level of skills? Besides, there are a lot of Stamblades out there anyways doing similar things.

And I did not know it was harder to land combo that begins with stealth than a combo that you see coming way ahead that may or may not happen due to reliance of RNG on their core damaging skill. I mean, Snipe is a guaranteed high damage while Crystal Frag is basically a RNG skill which may or may not proc to make the combo possible on time.

And Asylum's Bow did not make any Bowblades distance change. Because guess what? Bowblades always keep distance regardless.

DDuke

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

https://youtu.be/iEzSDS5yWqI

This is a textbook definition of irony right there.

I´m glad you put the instakill snipe in the video. I´m laughing tears.

"Instakill", I actually didn't land my combo properly there (was too close) and the 19k health lvl 35 player lived after the first burst & I had to light attack+bombard again for the kill (luckily he didn't have Rally & couldn't heal up to full after that initial burst). All of that is also avoidable/outshieldable/blockable and you see me cancel many snipes before that kill because targets were badly positioned or had too much health (or dmg shield up).

See, unlike the sorc burst mine actually takes some skill to land and has counterplay - where as any random sorc can get a kill on a medium armor build now thanks to Rune Cage, while also having access to 30k+ shield stacks that prevent the same from happening to them.

That's textbook definition of bad balance.

Lol, what? Sorc combo requires timing unlike bowblade you play where timing is not really an issue other than potential response to you by people next to your supposed target. And Sorc combo takes much longer to line up 1v1, 1vX or XvX. Your bow ganker build doesn't really have to do the setup other than stealth and gear it up. Sorc combo actually takes skill which is what sets bad Sorcs and good Sorcs apart. Don't even. Besides, Snipe is a homing arrow without much trouble firing unlike C.Frag.

If you don't time Asylum Snipe correctly and position right, you will fail miserably with it, get revealed & most likely killed if you're inexperienced with the type of playstyle.

I even made a tutorial video on the correct distance etc for the combo because it's extremely easy to get it wrong & mess it up entirely.


And no, hitting Rune Cage & then basically anything+Wrath doesn't really require any particular amount of skill. Keep in mind you don't need the full combo with Meteor to kill a non-tank character - in fact you don't even need Curse for that: just LA+Cage+LA+Frag+LA+Wrath.

It's why sorc PvP videos are the most common ones out there (note: there are some actual good sorc players, but every patch it gets harder & harder to tell them apart as the skill floor keeps getting raised).

Lol what? You are being dishonest again, citing the number of videos. Maybe people make videos with these classes because it is more interesting than their 1-2-dead enemy Stamblade footages? And playing not top class and showing how you do well with highlights is more entertaining/display your level of skills? Besides, there are a lot of Stamblades out there anyways doing similar things.

Well, they're not.

Not based on my personal opinion and not based on my video views as well as the feedback I've got (I've got mDK & magplar videos as well). My latest 1vX bowblade montage for example already has 800 more views than the mDK destro/resto one I uploaded last December.

Statistics may vary for other youtubers/streamers, but I'm a firm believer in that fast paced gameplay is much more enjoyable to watch than slow gameplay (not to say my mDK is a slow build, being destro/resto & max spell dmg minimum sustain after all, but in comparison).

In fact, personally I'd rather watch paint dry than see another rollerblade rolling around a tree or a tower for 15 minutes & killing maybe 5-6 pugs in that time.


But again, opinions may vary. And no, there aren't many stamblades doing similar things: most play rollerblade with 3k stam regen. That's why they're meta.

Boring, but meta.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

And I did not know it was harder to land combo that begins with stealth than a combo that you see coming way ahead that may or may not happen due to reliance of RNG on their core damaging skill. I mean, Snipe is a guaranteed high damage while Crystal Frag is basically a RNG skill which may or may not proc to make the combo possible on time.

And Asylum's Bow did not make any Bowblades distance change. Because guess what? Bowblades always keep distance regardless.

What?

The entire Asylum burst combo can be dodged, blocked, absorbed (it won't even touch the health pool with dmg shields up) & the most damaging portion of it can be reflected & it doesn't kill anyone who builds tanky enough or has those shields up. Far from "guaranteed high damage".


You know what is actually close to (can still be reflected/absorbed) guaranteed high damage? Frag.

No, not on its own, but when you combine it with the #1 most broken ability in the game at the moment, Rune Cage, then yes.


And I don't know what you're trying to say with Asylum Bow not making a difference in bowblade distance, you have to be within 15-20 meters from target to land the combo where as a normal snipe build can (and should) spam it from 28-50m depending on which non-Asylum combo they're going for.

15-20m vs 28-50m

That's quite a difference if you ask me. One is within range of all ranged skills (except Scatter Shot lul) & gap closers while another can be outside the range of anything (until a sorc streaks a couple of times & pops a det pot).

Not saying non-Asylum builds are "op" or anything as they deal pitiful damage, but they certainly take much less risks - which I actually dislike a lot. It's one big reason why I think they should just swap places of Rapid Fire & Snipe to prevent 50m spam while giving bow a better spammable but keeping the maximum burst intact.

Jsmalls

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Nope, as you can see I cloak right after getting the kill, before taking any real damage.

But Sorcs deserve every teabag because they are the „ez mode class“. Right. The cited statement above is very revealing - Rune Cage is OP because you can’t just use your Carte Blanche and escape from the middle of 20+ players so easily any longer.

Yes, they do and yes they are (now atleast).

There was nothing wrong with sorc in previous patch; in fact, they were already the "natural predators" of bow builds like mine and had a huge advantage against them - but they didn't get free kills and if I played well I could survive.

@DDuke

Spoken like a true Non MagSorc main.

MagSorcs simply put weren't killing anything above 25-28k health. It didn't matter if we were a better player, if that other person made a mistake, or 2 or 3. Our burst is capped, and we have no sustained damage to follow it up. We don't have class access to defiles or even debuffs for that matter. Our burst would cap at 12-15k if everything crit, was EASILY counterable then we'd have nothing to follow up with. We weren't even a threat in a 1v1 against players setup as such.

But yeah our class was perfectly fine...

And I seriously don't understand people's complaint about the worst 1vX defense mechanism in the game. I have my magDk friend ripping off my shields as fast as I can stack them. With 750 CP to delve into shattering blows with is a l2p issue at this point.

IZZEFlameLash

Jsmalls wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Nope, as you can see I cloak right after getting the kill, before taking any real damage.

But Sorcs deserve every teabag because they are the „ez mode class“. Right. The cited statement above is very revealing - Rune Cage is OP because you can’t just use your Carte Blanche and escape from the middle of 20+ players so easily any longer.

Yes, they do and yes they are (now atleast).

There was nothing wrong with sorc in previous patch; in fact, they were already the "natural predators" of bow builds like mine and had a huge advantage against them - but they didn't get free kills and if I played well I could survive.

@DDuke

Spoken like a true Non MagSorc main.

MagSorcs simply put weren't killing anything above 25-28k health. It didn't matter if we were a better player, if that other person made a mistake, or 2 or 3. Our burst is capped, and we have no sustained damage to follow it up. We don't have class access to defiles or even debuffs for that matter. Our burst would cap at 12-15k if everything crit, was EASILY counterable then we'd have nothing to follow up with. We weren't even a threat in a 1v1 against players setup as such.

But yeah our class was perfectly fine...

And I seriously don't understand people's complaint about the worst 1vX defense mechanism in the game. I have my magDk friend ripping off my shields as fast as I can stack them. With 750 CP to delve into shattering blows with is a l2p issue at this point.

Don't even need shattering blow to destroy shielded opponent tbh. I don't have any points into shattering and not even a high damage build but I can chew threw shield so well with my noodle.

DDuke

Jsmalls wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Nope, as you can see I cloak right after getting the kill, before taking any real damage.

But Sorcs deserve every teabag because they are the „ez mode class“. Right. The cited statement above is very revealing - Rune Cage is OP because you can’t just use your Carte Blanche and escape from the middle of 20+ players so easily any longer.

Yes, they do and yes they are (now atleast).

There was nothing wrong with sorc in previous patch; in fact, they were already the "natural predators" of bow builds like mine and had a huge advantage against them - but they didn't get free kills and if I played well I could survive.

@DDuke

Spoken like a true Non MagSorc main.

MagSorcs simply put weren't killing anything above 25-28k health. It didn't matter if we were a better player, if that other person made a mistake, or 2 or 3. Our burst is capped, and we have no sustained damage to follow it up. We don't have class access to defiles or even debuffs for that matter. Our burst would cap at 12-15k if everything crit, was EASILY counterable then we'd have nothing to follow up with. We weren't even a threat in a 1v1 against players setup as such.

But yeah our class was perfectly fine...

What, you think everyone else had ways of bursting anyone above 25-28k health?

Considering mSorc had/has the best instant burst in the game (LA+Cage+LA+Frag+Curse+Wrath+Meteor), have you considered how other burst oriented builds might've felt like in previous patch?

Full sorc "tooltip burst" is 79 354 with a high damage build like 5x Necropotence 5x Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw

73% crit dmg
13 767 penetration

2632 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4105

2660 Shock Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=4149

10 743 Curse Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=16 329

12 459 Frag Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,1(Frag Proc)]=20 183

6262 Rune Cage Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)]=9518

4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518=54 284


Add in ultimate:
16 071 Ice Comet Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,0,8(Ancient Knowledge)+0,23(Master-at-Arms)+0,13(Elemental Expert)+0,04(Elemental Talent)]=25 070

4105+4149+16 329+20 183+9518+25 070=79 354

...where as NB Incap->Relentless combo is "capped" at 53 391 with similar max dmg zero sustain gear (5x Spriggan 5x Sheer Venom 1x Kra'gh 1x Kena)

81% crit dmg
12 976 penetration

2847 Light Attack Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(Twin Blade&Blunt)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)+0,07(Physical Weapon Expert)]=4398

2534 Poison Glyph Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=3737

12 719 Incap Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=18 760

14 970 Merciless Before Modifiers->[0,08(Minor Berserk)+0,025(DW Passive)+0,1(Off Balance CP)+0,24(Master-at-Arms)+0,12(Mighty)]=22 080+20%(Incap)=26 496

4398+3737+18 760+26 496=53 391

...and Asylum Bow build is around the same damage as Incap->Will.


See, 25k+ health tank builds aren't just a sorc problem, they're an universal problem for builds that are burst oriented. And no, you have even less sustained damage on a bowblade than on a sorc & medium armor high dmg melee stamblade also doesn't run DoTs apart from PI (you can't sustain DoT oriented playstyle) so that sustained dmg is limited to Heavy Attack(since it's the only way to sustain)->Surprise Attack spam, which is weaker than Force Pulse/Frags & Curses in terms of sustained damage.

Jsmalls wrote: »

And I seriously don't understand people's complaint about the worst 1vX defense mechanism in the game. I have my magDk friend ripping off my shields as fast as I can stack them. With 750 CP to delve into shattering blows with is a l2p issue at this point.

mDK has wings, lots of DoTs and damage shields of their own to pressure a mSorc and survive their damage, a medium armor stamina build is stuck spamming dodge roll & trying to burst through shield stacks, which is never happening because you're on defensive the entire fight and first Rune Cage kills you. Just from a 1v1 duel perspective of course, getting Xv1'd by sorcs is even worse since they disable dodge roll/cloak with Rune Cage and let everyone land their damage on you.

IZZEFlameLash

Underselling Stamblade front loaded burst again. Sorc burst is very delayed so that you might as well consider the damage halved or quartered unless you are a 3 million health target dummy at someone's home.

arkansas_ESO

People saying "front-loaded burst is so much easier" act like it's some daunting task to cast curse and count to 3 in your head before you meteor and rune cage

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

For me anything that streaks around and spams shields looks the same, there's virtually no difference in the playstyle employed.

Meanwhile a bowblade for example plays vastly different to the typical 2H/Bow Incap Relentless rollerblade by utilizing entirely different skill combinations and prioritizing kiting & stealth to spamming dodge rolls/surprise attacks.

My DW/Bow (DW/DW occasionally) melee build is also very different since it never uses Incap->Relentless & doesn't spam dodge roll (instead utilizing DW heavy attack weaves just to sustain with 1,2k stam regen).

I actually meet a lot of nbs in cyrodiil that try to snipe me or run bow/dw builds.
So your builds would actually be just a typical NB build if i were to approach the topic as shallow as you do with sorcs. Cloaks, snipes, has two knives and attacks from invisibility => typical nightblade.
There is virtually no difference in playstyle recognizeable for me on the receiving end.

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

They truly are.

Why do you think Youtube/Twitch are filled with magicka sorcs all playing more or less the same build, where as you'll really have to struggle to find even one person playing a bow build for example?

Players gravitate towards easy, that's why you see shield stackers, megatanks & infinite regen rollerblades everywhere.


Previous patch I would've said rollerblade was the easiest class in the game to play, but that honor has to go to sorcs now with the I-Win Cage existing & sending those infinite regen rollerblades to respawn at the nearest keep as well.

No. People gravitate towards playable.

I can assure you my bow build for example is very playable (even with Rune Cage harming it a lot currently, thank god the infinite CC immunity to Rune Cage/Fossilize bug carried over from PTS), yet it isn't meta.

Why? Because it isn't easy to play.

I have played it (admittedly an imo improved version). It´s not harder or easier to play than my sorc (maybe harder to stay alive this patch) and easier than nongank magblade. It just has a smaller margin of pvp scenarios where its effective.
People gravitate to universially playable builds not one that excell in niche scenarios.
Just because it´s less effective overall does not mean it´s harder to play.

cpuScientist

Ok so then may I suggest not going tank build but maybe adding a touch of health? Just like EVERYONE is quite happy about sloads just anhilating sorcs going through shields and what not. And now we have to get heals and the like on our bar.

TWEAK your build up the pitiful rune cage damage is enough to just put you into execute either add health or resists. Maybe tri stat on some body pieces. Maybe ad d a few attribute into health. Maybe shuffle some cp around.

But truly all I can afford to do to the average nightblade is metoer cage, if I try to apply curse that fails. If I try to frag after they are alrwat in dodge to get out of that aoet and back in stealth with vigor before I can really do anything.

So tweak your builds just like sorcs are having to with sloads, avoid sorcs like Nightblades have to do with DK's wing's. Or best of all learn the proper escape when a metoer telegraph is launched.

Sorcs are not apex. We can't kill anyone slightly tanky. And to kill very squishy targets wr need to land a combo reliant upon a 170 cost ulti. With 5 GCD. Again meteor sorcs are potato farmers. Wr can burst down a potato really well and look awesome and upload that to YouTube. But if they are even approaching average. It turns into a duel, and wait till their or our friends show up and if you are a solo Sorc GL with this meteor crap. Ddddawnbreaker is still Superior for group play and we 2 or more people.

IZZEFlameLash

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

People saying "front-loaded burst is so much easier" act like it's some daunting task to cast curse and count to 3 in your head before you meteor and rune cage

If you have trouble landing Incap -> LA -> SA ani cancel-> Execute within 3 seconds, I think there's another problem that need resolving on your end rather than a Sorc. I don't even play Stamblade or mNB that often (but then I rarely play over 30 minutes unless there are friends inviting me to group) but I land that combo consistently within 3 seconds. And that is with high pings. Imagine that with low ping. Even faster. And very untelegraphed until they get hit. So... what's much easier to land? A combo like Stamden/Sorc you can see it coming miles away or combo that puts you in the first striker advantage?

Oh and Asylum's Bow usage never changed Bowblades' distance. They are almost always away at their skills' max ranges. If they don't, they are going to be punished for running low resist and die to a single rotation of any class. This does not at all means it is tricky to land a combo. Sorc combo has lots of defensive measures you can take in between that it is called a potatomasher for a reason. Bowblades combo always comes in unexpected time because of Cloak and stealth. I wish Sorc could spam proc'd Frag at will like Snipe.

arkansas_ESO

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

People saying "front-loaded burst is so much easier" act like it's some daunting task to cast curse and count to 3 in your head before you meteor and rune cage

If you have trouble landing Incap -> LA -> SA ani cancel-> Execute within 3 seconds, I think there's another problem that need resolving on your end rather than a Sorc.

you're comparing damage over multiple seconds when burst is best measured in terms of how much damage is done within the span of one gcd, and by that metric delayed damage is king. to put it into comparison: stam dk and stamden have roughly comparable toolkits and playstyles, yet stamden is seen as almost universally stronger due to stronger class skills, including it's access to strong, delayed damage in the form of sub assault

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374883/subterranean-assault-overperforming/p1