Meteor + Rune Cage/Petrify/Aspect of Terror Combination Needs to be Looked At

Biro123

Sorc burst just doesn't one-shot people... Well, it does, but very, very rarely. Even if building for max damage (and yes, I've commonly ran 0-sustain DW builds in the past) - but they don't work.

There is only a small number of people in cyro you can one-shot with them. You have no advantage of stealth to be able to pick and choose your targets - you just have to take what comes - and there are soo many that you cannot 1-shot - which ends up with you running dry... therefore, sorcs have to build for sustain. Always have done, and give up on this 'one-shot paradigm'..


btw, on your vid, getting hit by both cage and reach seems odd.. I can't see a reason to run both, so I'm not sure if you got hit by 2 sorcs..

And cage only really works on cloak because of it's delay. Still needs to be cast on someone not cloaked.. I'd much rather it was instant instead instead of having this weird 'delay' (kind of like travel time but without travel time) - then you'd never see it 'go through cloak and wouldn't be able to complain..' Of course being able to fire an overload and then then cage just before it lands would be complain-worthy!!

Honestly though, if ganky-bow builds are no longer viable, it isn't all on cage.. it's the damage hike overall which makes it so. (and I suspect moreso sload for breaking cloak - though not in this instance).

DDuke

Biro123 wrote: »

Sorc burst just doesn't one-shot people... Well, it does, but very, very rarely. Even if building for max damage (and yes, I've commonly ran 0-sustain DW builds in the past) - but they don't work.

There is only a small number of people in cyro you can one-shot with them. You have no advantage of stealth to be able to pick and choose your targets - you just have to take what comes - and there are soo many that you cannot 1-shot - which ends up with you running dry... therefore, sorcs have to build for sustain. Always have done, and give up on this 'one-shot paradigm'..

You can sneak on a sorc as well though, and use invis pots/streak if you were to pick the gank playstyle. See the Crystal Blast Overload gank builds for example.

Just like with NB though (and any other class for that matter), sustain builds are more popular of course.

People like infinite resources & gameplay where mistakes don't matter since you get "infinite tries" (unless zerged down).

I don't, that's why I always go minimum regen and instead aim for builds that are capable of dispatching even skilled players quickly in 1vX (which also serves to make PvP more enjoyable for me).

Biro123 wrote: »

btw, on your vid, getting hit by both cage and reach seems odd.. I can't see a reason to run both, so I'm not sure if you got hit by 2 sorcs..

Nope, I checked combat log afterwards (I do this every time I die) - as I said you can die to any random sorc now thanks to Rune Cage... I've plenty of other clips like that from yesterday alone.

Biro123 wrote: »

And cage only really works on cloak because of it's delay. Still needs to be cast on someone not cloaked.. I'd much rather it was instant instead instead of having this weird 'delay' (kind of like travel time but without travel time) - then you'd never see it 'go through cloak and wouldn't be able to complain..' Of course being able to fire an overload and then then cage just before it lands would be complain-worthy!!

Oh, there's so many things that would make Cage less gamebreaking. Many were suggested during the PTS even, but as usual ZOS just steams forward with the changes & fixes things in the next update (while breaking more stuff)...

Biro123 wrote: »

Honestly though, if ganky-bow builds are no longer viable, it isn't all on cage.. it's the damage hike overall which makes it so. (and I suspect moreso sload for breaking cloak - though not in this instance).

I didn't say they aren't viable, it's just that you can never become visible if there's a sorc nearby (atleast if they're facing your direction).

Other classes are really no problem, I can kite them & dodge roll/cloak their attacks with ease. Of course, one mistake (like unblocked Leap for example) & I'm toast - but that's how it should be.

technohic

I've kind of decided or figured out depending how you look at it; that just the reason I do not like playing my mag sorc much because I just dont like having to keep recasting shields all the time, so at the same time; when I see one of these sorcs its still the same answer. Have enough burst to drop their shields so thats all they can do. Just sucks when you get hit in the middle of larger figthing from somewhere in the back, but thats just part of the game. Really need the NBs to take those guys out back there before they get a chance in that situation.

Jsmalls

@DDuke

As a magSorc main I whole heartedly feel bad for the design of Rune Cage. Medium armor builds were also never the problem, rollerblades are annoying but counterable. We as MagSorcs begged for a tool kit to help deal with meta tanks. This included debuffs to resistances on frags or some ability. Meta tanks are what's annoying in PvP. Not medium armor builds. I have a buddy who plays a stamina Sorc and our duels go back and forth, really fun fights. Anyone with 30k resist and 25k+ health is just crutching on the game's design to survive 1v1s until their buddies show up.

Got hit with a 5k leap the other day in light armor. He played defensively enough until his friend's came and Xv1'ed me. That's what this game has come to. High defense, minimal damage, run in groups.

I'm just like you DDuke, high damage, moderate sustain, and depending on my class's defense mechanism to survive. Then I get sloaded and shieldbreakered to death.

DDuke

technohic wrote: »

I've kind of decided or figured out depending how you look at it; that just the reason I do not like playing my mag sorc much because I just dont like having to keep recasting shields all the time, so at the same time; when I see one of these sorcs its still the same answer. Have enough burst to drop their shields so thats all they can do. Just sucks when you get hit in the middle of larger figthing from somewhere in the back, but thats just part of the game. Really need the NBs to take those guys out back there before they get a chance in that situation.

Yeah, I always target sorcs first this patch, even if they're in middle of a zerg. Problem is, it's very hard to catch them with their shields down and they aren't burstable if those are up.

I tend to follow them around, count to 6 after last shield cast & queue up Snipe when I reach 5, but that's still wishful thinking - chances are they just refresh shields 1s earlier & I get to hope they don't have det pots as I try to cloak->sneak away.


I think the other half of my deaths in Cyrodiil is from tbagging (very out of character for me) the sorcs I do manage to kill & then getting zerged while I do that, that's just how many negative feelings the current Rune Cage causes.

Biro123

Jsmalls wrote: »

@DDuke

As a magSorc main I whole heartedly feel bad for the design of Rune Cage. Medium armor builds were also never the problem, rollerblades are annoying but counterable. We as MagSorcs begged for a tool kit to help deal with meta tanks. This included debuffs to resistances on frags or some ability. Meta tanks are what's annoying in PvP. Not medium armor builds. I have a buddy who plays a stamina Sorc and our duels go back and forth, really fun fights. Anyone with 30k resist and 25k+ health is just crutching on the game's design to survive 1v1s until their buddies show up.

Got hit with a 5k leap the other day in light armor. He played defensively enough until his friend's came and Xv1'ed me. That's what this game has come to. High defense, minimal damage, run in groups.

I'm just like you DDuke, high damage, moderate sustain, and depending on my class's defense mechanism to survive. Then I get sloaded and shieldbreakered to death.

Same here, to be fair.. (or get beat down my those tanky 'small-scale' groups who just survive everything then ulti-burst people down 1 by 1)..

I've come to the conclusion that there is no place left in the game for this kind of playstyle anymore, no matter the class. Not when the majority of your opponents are either tanking up, or cheesing oblivion kills, invisible until after you're dead, or disappeared around a corner before you get 2 abilities strung together...

I just don't think highlighting one ability as the cause will help in any way - since we all know Zos don't revert changes once live - and there are a LOT more things than cage affecting this playstyle..

jaws343

On Xbox right now, I actually run defensive rune instead of rune cage and I use streak to stun for Meteor. I find the streak stun to be far more reliable in a 1vx situation, especially if your meteor target steps behind another player or two and you cannot reliably get a rune cage on them. In 1v1 rune cage is better. But against multiple opponents the streak stun catches everyone not cc immune.

Once we get Summerset and I can equip a full monster set, my sorc build is going to be incredibly strong though.

jaws343

Jsmalls wrote: »

@DDuke

As a magSorc main I whole heartedly feel bad for the design of Rune Cage. Medium armor builds were also never the problem, rollerblades are annoying but counterable. We as MagSorcs begged for a tool kit to help deal with meta tanks. This included debuffs to resistances on frags or some ability. Meta tanks are what's annoying in PvP. Not medium armor builds. I have a buddy who plays a stamina Sorc and our duels go back and forth, really fun fights. Anyone with 30k resist and 25k+ health is just crutching on the game's design to survive 1v1s until their buddies show up.

Got hit with a 5k leap the other day in light armor. He played defensively enough until his friend's came and Xv1'ed me. That's what this game has come to. High defense, minimal damage, run in groups.

I'm just like you DDuke, high damage, moderate sustain, and depending on my class's defense mechanism to survive. Then I get sloaded and shieldbreakered to death.

I run a DK with around those same stats: 30K resistances and 35K health in cyrodil. But I solo with it and rely on sustained damage and defile. My leaps only do around 3-4K, maybe 5K on a weaker opponent. But my heavy attacks deal out around 15-20K damage once you add all of the damage sources together. I do agree somewhat though, heavy armor higher health builds are a bigger issue than medium builds, especially when that can deal some damage.

Brutusmax1mus

Jsmalls wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Lol i have been obliterating people with this prior to the buff, i can't wait. Curse, meteor, cage, wrath is easily the most broken skill combo in the game. It doesn't only effect bad players. It kills everyone equally in the right hands.

If the sorc does this combo to you at full health they don't respect you and think you're a noob. Good builds don't get zero'd from full hp, but good sorcs don't attempt it at 100% against good players either, they shoot for about 18k hp where it's almost a guarantee kill vs any one.

@Brutusmax1mus

You realize that the first 3 abilities in that combo don't cause initial damage right? And that your opponent would have to sit at 18k health for 3 GCDs for this to even have a chance at working? With the meta health for most players being 25k they would have to be sitting below 70% health for 3 GCDs without healing, CCing you, or pressuring you into breaking your combo. While I agree that potatoes will let you do this to them, any player with half a brain will not. It's strong on live if and only if you combo curse, meteor, rune cage, frag, and hope to get the execute off on them. But that's 5 GCD, and the stars all aligning, mostly everything critting, and the player deciding not to heal.

This is a hard to pull off, but good combo on live (console), but will be probably over tuned with summerset between the light attack buffs and rune cage buff.

Light attack weaving and glyph alone will be that down. I just think it's easy to do. Sure you can goof it up, but it's not difficult. It's op.

cpuScientist

I have been using it non stop this patch, as I just hate using reach and having it reflected. I dislike having to turn away from wings.

It is a 7k tooltip for me, running shackle lich and a will power front bar. It usually in cyro does 1-2.5k damage. The whole meteor combo is good on StamBlades that have no defensive sets on, IF they take very long to cloak away. Because to make sure the meteor hits I have to launch meteor first and many as soon as they see it cloak. The ones that don't and are running around with 18kish health they die or get really low, and I have to hope they don't break free and cloak before I can hit a finisher. But I cannot get the 5 hit combo off on any decent stamBlade.

On the rest of cyro, running 25k health+. I can only kill them with the combo if there are like 3 or more trying to kill me as they usually ignore healing by then. And I chip one down and then pull the full combo. But most as soon as they whiff the combo just hit vigor, shield, or CC me. I usually have to block cast it.

It is definitely a potato smasher. But it takes up room and ultimately is just not that strong, if I don't like someone out right with it they have enough time to heal to full before my next curse combo sans ulti. So I'm screwed lol.

Sorc burst is not really strong it cannot even with a 5 hit combo 1 shot a typical build.

Now in a group where I have help from teammate then rune cage is nice to lock a guy down and dogpile em. If they are moderately squishy it's good.

But in BG'S I still have to take meteor off and slot dawnbreaker, because I can't burst with my team effectively without it. And in small man cyro same and in telvar hunting same, meteor combo is fun but impractical, I have to do alot for it to hit and it's single Target. And costs me 170 ulti. It's frankly a joke that people are complaining about it, makes me feel like they've never played the class TBH.

Biro123

jaws343 wrote: »

On Xbox right now, I actually run defensive rune instead of rune cage and I use streak to stun for Meteor. I find the streak stun to be far more reliable in a 1vx situation, especially if your meteor target steps behind another player or two and you cannot reliably get a rune cage on them. In 1v1 rune cage is better. But against multiple opponents the streak stun catches everyone not cc immune.

Once we get Summerset and I can equip a full monster set, my sorc build is going to be incredibly strong though.

I thought that too - then I got Summerset... Honestly, the extra that sorcs get is massively offset by the increased damage that everyone gets, and the inability of shields to scale with it.

Minalan

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

https://youtu.be/iEzSDS5yWqI

This is a textbook definition of irony right there.

I´m glad you put the instakill snipe in the video. I´m laughing tears.

"Instakill", I actually didn't land my combo properly there (was too close) and the 19k health lvl 35 player lived after the first burst & I had to light attack+bombard again for the kill (luckily he didn't have Rally & couldn't heal up to full after that initial burst). All of that is also avoidable/outshieldable/blockable and you see me cancel many snipes before that kill because targets were badly positioned or had too much health (or dmg shield up).

See, unlike the sorc burst mine actually takes some skill to land and has counterplay - where as any random sorc can get a kill on a medium armor build now thanks to Rune Cage, while also having access to 30k+ shield stacks that prevent the same from happening to them.

That's textbook definition of bad balance.

A two shot snipe ganker complaining about a FOUR step Sorc gank. GTFO of here man, nobody isn’t taking you seriously anymore.

The only issue with rune cage is the long range, if that were cut to 12-18 meters it would be perfectly fine.

DDuke

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

https://youtu.be/iEzSDS5yWqI

This is a textbook definition of irony right there.

I´m glad you put the instakill snipe in the video. I´m laughing tears.

"Instakill", I actually didn't land my combo properly there (was too close) and the 19k health lvl 35 player lived after the first burst & I had to light attack+bombard again for the kill (luckily he didn't have Rally & couldn't heal up to full after that initial burst). All of that is also avoidable/outshieldable/blockable and you see me cancel many snipes before that kill because targets were badly positioned or had too much health (or dmg shield up).

See, unlike the sorc burst mine actually takes some skill to land and has counterplay - where as any random sorc can get a kill on a medium armor build now thanks to Rune Cage, while also having access to 30k+ shield stacks that prevent the same from happening to them.

That's textbook definition of bad balance.

A two shot snipe ganker complaining about a FOUR step Sorc gank. GTFO of here man, nobody isn’t taking you seriously anymore.

The only issue with rune cage is the long range, if that were cut to 12-18 meters it would be perfectly fine.

"Ganker", sigh... that word has such a negative connotation and most people don't really understand what it means.

A "ganker" attacks people who are outnumbered or otherwise at a disadvantage. I attack people when I'm outnumbered, never the other way around unless it's a sorc (in which case they deserve every gank & tbag in the universe for playing such an easymode class, unless they play like a heavy armor melee mSorc or other non-meta thing I can respect).

I prefer the term "stealth build" because that's what it boils down to: utilizing stealth to my best advantage (much like I'd do with rogue in WoW, Thief in GW2, Assassin in BnS and so on and so on).

Lacking stunlocks and any other useful manner of utilizing stealth, it boils down to one shots in ESO - much like most builds in the game that don't want to get stuck behind dmg shield spam & instaheals to full from behind permablock.


I feel sad I have to explain this to you.

Also for the steps required to land Asylum Snipe properly:

1. Avoid detection.
2. Situate yourself exactly between 15-20m of the target.
3. Queue up snipe without getting too close (like I did on the video) or too far away during the cast (means predicting enemy movements).
4. Hit light attack exactly as the cast finishes (not too soon or it doesnt go off, not too late or you screw up the combo).
5. Land bombard (one of the few "skill shots" in this game), requires an understanding of the bombard cone and where it can hit. Hitting moving targets requires prediction of enemy movement, much like landing head shots in FPS games.
6. Profit. If target didn't have damage shield up and wasn't megatanky.

Steps after that: cloak & escape before you get one shot by some random sorcerer smashing head on the Rune Cage button to get a free kill on anyone who dares not to play a toxic meta tank build.

Lord-Otto

Gank build, Duke.
Also, pressing button for easy mode invisibility on demand =/= stealth.

DDuke

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Gank build, Duke.
Also, pressing button for easy mode invisibility on demand =/= stealth.

Here's what a "gank build" would look like: 5x Night Mother's Gaze 5x Spriggan (or Morag Tong if you want more of a shield focus, not that it really works vs that overpowered defensive mechanic) 1x Asylum Bow

A build that maximizes damage but has no sustain for 1vX is forced to attack solo players or play in a group and Xv1 others. That is a gank build.

5x Marksman 5x Hawk's Eye has enough sustain to 1vX however, meaning you can make yourself the disadvantaged player in that scenario. In a way, you are the one getting "ganked" in that situation.

Much like that clip I posted earlier; I got "ganked" with the caveat that there is no counterplay against the sorc burst (that cloak I used would've made me avoid any snipe or incap gank attempt).


Stealth in this game is a polarizing subject: it is either too strong (vs some builds with no counter to it) or it is absolutely useless (like in that clip above where Rune Cage pulls me out of it) due to presence of Piercing Mark, det pots etc etc.

A topic for another thread, but I wouldn't call stealth "easymode invisibility" when there's bound to be atleast one person with Piercing Mark, one person with det pot (especially cancerous when sorcs use them), one person with snares & Hurricane etc present.

Lord-Otto

Bow build... This is totally a gank build.

Spammable invisibility will remain a noob tool in my eyes and is not in the same league with proper stealth by using LoS, environment, etc.

DDuke

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Bow build... This is totally a gank build.

Spammable invisibility will remain a noob tool in my eyes and is not in the same league with proper stealth by using LoS, environment, etc.

Then you do not understand the definition of the word:

TOP DEFINITION
Ganking
It is a word commonly used in online video games, usualy used in an MMORPG. Ganking is the process in which a group of charecters gang up on one or more players that do not have a chance to defend themselves, Or when one high level player does the same action to a player way below his or her own level

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ganking


Much like you wouldn't call every Rogue in World of Warcraft, every Thief in GW2 a "ganker" despite the existence of buttons that make these characters gain invisibility (e.g. Vanish in WoW, Cloak and Dagger in GW2 etc etc). Same applies here.

You are free to feel whatever you want about invisibility granting abilities, that is not the topic of this thread (though I will say, given how popular rogue classes are in MMOs this game would probably lose half its player base if atleast one such skill didn't exist).

Rianai

Ganking = Killing players (or trying to) without the intention of giving them a real chance to fight back. How this goal is achieved doesn't matter imo. Attacking from steath isn't automatically ganking, but oneshotting from stealth is, unless there is a clear tell that allows the player to react and counter the incoming damage.
The players in your video didn't plan to gank you. They just took advantage of your bad position, which was your fault. Could have sniped from the wall. Could have approached from a different position, with a better escape route/LOS nearby. Could have used Shadow Image to get out. Could have focused the sorc, instead of a more or less harmless low level player. Instead of jumping into the middle of a zerg and expecting them to let you escape, despite knowing how dangerous sorcs can be ... And a lot more things could have killed you there (including pre Summerset Rune Cage), so it is a bad demonstration of the "OPness" of Rune Cage or magsorc in general.

And no, ganking it isn't the only way to play a stealth build. Any build which utilizes stealth in some way is a stealth build. So pretty much all nb builds with cloak (unless you are only talking about sneak mode - but then your mentioning of GW2 doesn't make any sense, because there is no sneak in said game). Including (but not limited to) your beloved "rollerblades".

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

A "ganker" attacks people who are outnumbered or otherwise at a disadvantage. I attack people when I'm outnumbered, never the other way around unless it's a sorc (in which case they deserve every gank & tbag in the universe for playing such an easymode class, unless they play like a heavy armor melee mSorc or other non-meta thing I can respect).

With otherwise at a disadvantage you mean for example that they´re unaware of your presence because your *you´re invisible? That kind of disadvantage?

If sorcs so easymode do some 1vX on it - you might find it not being as easy as roflstomping people in duels.

In general it´s a pretty rich statement to make - coming from a NB.

cpuScientist

Every stun that goes through roll dodge is the bane of stamBlades. Espeict if they build for pure gank. If they build defense into their build. They survive the combo and can go away heal and burst you down. Whereas that magSorc now has to build 170 ulti with no ulti gen passives. Or a burst combo out of stealth. The stamBlade burst is just better. Good stamBlades not calling anyone here bad, but good stamBlades either cloak as soon as meteor gets on them they vigor block in stealth then get rune caged break free and they are alive. Or they weren't quick enough but still survive if a good crit wasn't in there. Because you cannot land curse meteor cage on a good or even half way decent stamBlade let alone land endless fury curse meteor cage frag. If you get that combo off on a stamBlar that is either the most POTATO stamBlade NA/EU or they were completely out of resources. And again it's all a setup to kill 1 guy then wait for that ulti. Whereas a stamBlade gets theirs up fast.

And addmitedly this has made stamBlades an easier target. The vast majority of cyro are in tanky Stam builds and this doesn't do one damn thing against them. Not a damn thing. The full combo can hit and it does about 18-20k damage and they just boop heal up. And it becomes a long drawn out fight until their mates get there. Or I streak away and hope he follows while I rebuild that utli and chip away at their health PRAYING they are too potato to heal.

My mahSorc is a potato farmer. With no real way to kill decent tanky players because my full combo has a cieling and I do not have e the element of surprise. So it's basically a duel.

jaws343

cpuScientist wrote: »

Every stun that goes through roll dodge is the bane of stamBlades. Espeict if they build for pure gank. If they build defense into their build. They survive the combo and can go away heal and burst you down. Whereas that magSorc now has to build 170 ulti with no ulti gen passives. Or a burst combo out of stealth. The stamBlade burst is just better. Good stamBlades not calling anyone here bad, but good stamBlades either cloak as soon as meteor gets on them they vigor block in stealth then get rune caged break free and they are alive. Or they weren't quick enough but still survive if a good crit wasn't in there. Because you cannot land curse meteor cage on a good or even half way decent stamBlade let alone land endless fury curse meteor cage frag. If you get that combo off on a stamBlar that is either the most POTATO stamBlade NA/EU or they were completely out of resources. And again it's all a setup to kill 1 guy then wait for that ulti. Whereas a stamBlade gets theirs up fast.

And addmitedly this has made stamBlades an easier target. The vast majority of cyro are in tanky Stam builds and this doesn't do one damn thing against them. Not a damn thing. The full combo can hit and it does about 18-20k damage and they just boop heal up. And it becomes a long drawn out fight until their mates get there. Or I streak away and hope he follows while I rebuild that utli and chip away at their health PRAYING they are too potato to heal.

My mahSorc is a potato farmer. With no real way to kill decent tanky players because my full combo has a cieling and I do not have e the element of surprise. So it's basically a duel.

It also doesn't help when frag and wrath can both be dodged and a roll dodge at any point in a fight renders your entire burst combo useless for a few seconds.

Xvorg

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Bow build... This is totally a gank build.

Spammable invisibility will remain a noob tool in my eyes and is not in the same league with proper stealth by using LoS, environment, etc.

It used to be, when MO was called agony, but not anymore.

Regarding LoS, it's quite hard to counter compared to the long list of counters cloak has, but that's another discussion that has nothing to do with the fact that rune cage has become quite annoying.

By the way, nobody has seen the combo cage + borrowing time yet?

DDuke

Rianai wrote: »

Ganking = Killing players (or trying to) without the intention of giving them a chance to fight back. How this goal is achieved doesn't matter imo. Attacking from steath isn't automatically ganking, but oneshotting from stealth is, unless there is a clear tell that allows the player to react and counter the incoming damage.

Except the entire game is built around one shots playing builds that give opponents no chance of ever killing you.

It doesn't matter whether that one shot is from stealth or if it's from Incap->Will after 15 minutes of rolling around a tree/tower with infinite sustain, or after getting 16 bleeds stacked on you by a megatank with Sloads & eating an Incap for 100>0.

Or if it's from a sorc with 30k+ infinite shield spam when you run out of resources (not playing a similar meta build) and can no longer force them to spam those shields.


If you don't one shot your opponent in ESO, you can expect them to just instaheal to full from permablock or spam shields until full health again - it is what it is.


I just happen to play more fast paced builds that can actually die if they make mistakes, but are also able to kill players quicker without requiring the spam oriented gameplay necessary to achieve burst conditions.

Dying to mistakes is fine - it's those moments and learning from them that improve us as gamers.

What I'm not fine with is dying without making a mistake.

Rianai wrote: »

The players in your video didn't plan to gank you. They just took advantage of your bad position, which was your fault. Could have sniped from the wall. Could have approached from a different position, with a better escape route/LOS nearby. Could have used Shadow Image to get out. Could have focused the sorc, instead of a more or less harmless low level player. Instead of jumping into the middle of a zerg and expecting them to let you escape, despite knowing how dangerous sorcs can be ...

Yes, I could play like a coward and attack isolated players without ever taking risks.

But I happen to trust my ability as a player to react quick & play a stealth focused build as I've played them over 4 years in ESO alone by now (10+ years if we count all MMOs I've played) which has so far let me do more impressive stuff with my gameplay.

Keywords: so far. Rune Cage is changing this, because no matter how quick I react or what I do, I'm dead to it and I can't count on there not being sorcs around every time I PvP.

Rianai wrote: »

And a lot more things could have killed you there (including pre Summerset Rune Cage), so it is a bad demonstration of the "OPness" of Rune Cage or magsorc in general.

Nope, as you can see I cloak right after getting the kill, before taking any real damage.

One of the few things apart from Sloads breaking cloak right now? Rune Cage.

Frag, Ambush+Incap, another snipe etc all would've failed to kill me there.


Previous Rune Cage also would've let me CC break & dodge roll into cloak instead of falling into execute range with the damage I took (I'm at 35% health when I break free & hit dodge roll key).

Soul Assault would've killed me though if the rest of the zerg focused me (otherwise ez block+Vigor->cloak).

Rianai wrote: »

And no, ganking it isn't the only way to play a stealth build. Any build which utilizes stealth in some way is a stealth build. So pretty much all nb builds with cloak (unless you are only talking about sneak mode - but then your mentioning of GW2 doesn't make any sense, because there is no sneak in said game). Including (but not limited to) your beloved "rollerblades".

Lmao.

These builds do not utilize stealth to combo, they do not utilize it for anything but escaping & cheesing out infinite stamina for dodge roll spam (the main point of these builds) with their 3k+ regens.

You rarely (if ever) see them actually cloak->sneak for example, or cloak->heavy attack+SA stun, cloak->asylum snipe etc - stealth combos like you'd have in other MMOs (which usually have entire dedicated bars for stealth skills).


Stealth really is just a "side dish" for those builds, they're called "rollerblades" for a reason.

Minalan

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

https://youtu.be/iEzSDS5yWqI

This is a textbook definition of irony right there.

I´m glad you put the instakill snipe in the video. I´m laughing tears.

"Instakill", I actually didn't land my combo properly there (was too close) and the 19k health lvl 35 player lived after the first burst & I had to light attack+bombard again for the kill (luckily he didn't have Rally & couldn't heal up to full after that initial burst). All of that is also avoidable/outshieldable/blockable and you see me cancel many snipes before that kill because targets were badly positioned or had too much health (or dmg shield up).

See, unlike the sorc burst mine actually takes some skill to land and has counterplay - where as any random sorc can get a kill on a medium armor build now thanks to Rune Cage, while also having access to 30k+ shield stacks that prevent the same from happening to them.

That's textbook definition of bad balance.

A two shot snipe ganker complaining about a FOUR step Sorc gank. GTFO of here man, nobody isn’t taking you seriously anymore.

The only issue with rune cage is the long range, if that were cut to 12-18 meters it would be perfectly fine.

"Ganker", sigh... that word has such a negative connotation and most people don't really understand what it means.

A "ganker" attacks people who are outnumbered or otherwise at a disadvantage. I attack people when I'm outnumbered, never the other way around unless it's a sorc (in which case they deserve every gank & tbag in the universe for playing such an easymode class, unless they play like a heavy armor melee mSorc or other non-meta thing I can respect).

I prefer the term "stealth build" because that's what it boils down to: utilizing stealth to my best advantage (much like I'd do with rogue in WoW, Thief in GW2, Assassin in BnS and so on and so on).

Lacking stunlocks and any other useful manner of utilizing stealth, it boils down to one shots in ESO - much like most builds in the game that don't want to get stuck behind dmg shield spam & instaheals to full from behind permablock.


I feel sad I have to explain this to you.

Also for the steps required to land Asylum Snipe properly:

1. Avoid detection.
2. Situate yourself exactly between 15-20m of the target.
3. Queue up snipe without getting too close (like I did on the video) or too far away during the cast (means predicting enemy movements).
4. Hit light attack exactly as the cast finishes (not too soon or it doesnt go off, not too late or you screw up the combo).
5. Land bombard (one of the few "skill shots" in this game), requires an understanding of the bombard cone and where it can hit. Hitting moving targets requires prediction of enemy movement, much like landing head shots in FPS games.
6. Profit. If target didn't have damage shield up and wasn't megatanky.

Steps after that: cloak & escape before you get one shot by some random sorcerer smashing head on the Rune Cage button to get a free kill on anyone who dares not to play a toxic meta tank build.

So ‘ganker’ is apparently now a ‘g-word’ that only nightblades get to use? Lol...

I’m sorry, walking up to someone who can’t f****** see you is SOOOO HARD!?

Then... then... you had to press TWO buttons and almost sprained your poor widdle nightblade finger!

You have a counter in the game, it’s only slightly less cheap than your own garbage.

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

A "ganker" attacks people who are outnumbered or otherwise at a disadvantage. I attack people when I'm outnumbered, never the other way around unless it's a sorc (in which case they deserve every gank & tbag in the universe for playing such an easymode class, unless they play like a heavy armor melee mSorc or other non-meta thing I can respect).

With otherwise at a disadvantage you mean for example that they´re unaware of your presence because your invisible? That kind of disadvantage?

How can someone be at a disadvantage when they outnumber me 2v1, 3v1, 4v1, even 5v1+?

If we're talking 1v1 where a player gets the jump on another player - sure. I don't consider that to be particularly difficult unless you're trying to kill a megatank or sorc with shields up, which just flat out doesn't work no matter the advantage you have at the beginning of a fight.

Derra wrote: »

If sorcs so easymode do some 1vX on it - you might find it not being as easy as roflstomping people in duels.

In general it´s a pretty rich statement to make - coming from a NB.

They truly are.

Why do you think Youtube/Twitch are filled with magicka sorcs all playing more or less the same build, where as you'll really have to struggle to find even one person playing a bow build for example?

Players gravitate towards easy, that's why you see shield stackers, megatanks & infinite regen rollerblades everywhere.


Previous patch I would've said rollerblade was the easiest class in the game to play, but that honor has to go to sorcs now with the I-Win Cage existing & sending those infinite regen rollerblades to respawn at the nearest keep as well.

cpuScientist wrote: »

The vast majority of cyro are in tanky Stam builds and this doesn't do one damn thing against them. Not a damn thing. The full combo can hit and it does about 18-20k damage and they just boop heal up. And it becomes a long drawn out fight until their mates get there. Or I streak away and hope he follows while I rebuild that utli and chip away at their health PRAYING they are too potato to heal.

My mahSorc is a potato farmer. With no real way to kill decent tanky players because my full combo has a cieling and I do not have e the element of surprise. So it's basically a duel.

...and why do you think the vast majority of Cyrodiil are playing tanks? Could it perhaps have something to do with medium armor non-tank builds getting one shot when their main defensive mechanic (dodge roll) is negated?

Most people will play tanks if they can't survive otherwise.


It's the same as if the entire Incap combo of a meta rollerblade dealt Oblivion damage and went through your shields. Sorcs would be forced to stack 30k+ health to survive & people would (rightfully so) be complaining.

Rianai

DDuke wrote: »

Except the entire game is built around one shots playing builds that give opponents no chance of ever killing you. [...]

Exaggeration doesn't make your arguments more comprehensible.

And maybe you should try noCP. There are issues too, but not so much with 30k shields, instant full heals and infinite sustain oneshot megatanks.

DDuke wrote: »

Nope, as you can see I cloak right after getting the kill, before taking any real damage.

One of the few things apart from Sloads breaking cloak right now? Rune Cage.

Frag, Ambush+Incap, another snipe etc all would've failed to kill me there.

Previous Rune Cage also would've let me CC break & dodge roll into cloak instead of falling into execute range with the damage I took (I'm at 35% health when I break free & hit dodge roll key).

Soul Assault would've killed me though if the rest of the zerg focused me (otherwise ez block+Vigor->cloak).

Mark, detect pots, lightning heavy attack, random aoe, Curse, SA, Sloads, ... Cloak breaking and undodgeable stuff isn't new and always needs to be taken into consideration.

And with 35% hp before Cage dmg, even the initial hit from Fury + LA could be enough to put you into execute range. Or Reach DoT + potential enchant proc.

DDuke wrote: »

These builds do not utilize stealth to combo, they do not utilize it for anything but escaping & cheesing out infinite stamina for dodge roll spam (the main point of these builds) with their 3k+ regens.

You rarely (if ever) see them actually cloak->sneak for example, or cloak->heavy attack+SA stun, cloak->asylum snipe etc - stealth combos like you'd have in other MMOs (which usually have entire dedicated bars for stealth skills).

Stealth really is just a "side dish" for those builds, they're called "rollerblades" for a reason.

I see nbs utilizing stealth both offensively and defensively all the time. And most of them turn into free kills once they are marked, so it is hard to belive stealth is only a "side dish" for them. Personally i'm using stealth mostly for defensive purposes, but even with cloak not being my only defense, it doesn't mean it is not an important part of my build.

Your narrow definition of certain builds isn't universally true. You CAN play different stealth builds. You just don't want to. Which is fine of course. But the choice is still there.

DDuke

Rianai wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Except the entire game is built around one shots playing builds that give opponents no chance of ever killing you. [...]

Exaggeration doesn't make your arguments more comprehensible.

And maybe you should try noCP. There are issues too, but not so much with 30k shields, instant full heals and infinite sustain oneshot megatanks.

Not really an exaggeration when it's true - there's no average pug out there that can kill a "good" player being carried by a mindless shield spam/megatank build, no matter how many mistakes that "good" player makes.

That's what most builds these days aim towards, zero risk playstyles that still get kills thanks to cheesy spam oriented game mechanics.


I've tried noCP, but unfortunately bow burst is much worse there and isn't capable of killing as many players with the burst.

Also, Rune Cage does the same thing in noCP than it does in CP, except there you won't always have stamina to even break it anymore on a non-meta high dmg build with limited sustain...

Rianai wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nope, as you can see I cloak right after getting the kill, before taking any real damage.

One of the few things apart from Sloads breaking cloak right now? Rune Cage.

Frag, Ambush+Incap, another snipe etc all would've failed to kill me there.

Previous Rune Cage also would've let me CC break & dodge roll into cloak instead of falling into execute range with the damage I took (I'm at 35% health when I break free & hit dodge roll key).

Soul Assault would've killed me though if the rest of the zerg focused me (otherwise ez block+Vigor->cloak).

Mark, detect pots, lightning heavy attack, random aoe, Curse, SA, Sloads, ... Cloak breaking and undodgeable stuff isn't new and always needs to be taken into consideration.

And with 35% hp before Cage dmg, even the initial hit from Fury + LA could be enough to put you into execute range. Or Reach DoT + potential enchant proc.

Lightning Heavy Attack targeting you doesn't break cloak, the splash damage does (there was no friendly player next to me).

Piercing Mark & det pot are their own issues and I'd be glad to talk about them, there's probably nothing more cancerous than a sorc chasing you with det pots & streak spamming Curse & Rune Cage.

Piercing Mark though isn't as much of a problem since you can dodge everything a magblade throws at you & they have less shields to stack, meaning you drop a Ballista->Asylum Snipe & can often even kill them without stealth burst.


Problems arise when you can't dodge mechanics anymore (e.g. Rune Cage).

Also, initial hit from Fury (which was already applied to me) & LA can both be dodged: the only undodgeable things in sorc toolkit are Rune Cage, Curse & Boundless Storm (if someone even runs it). This means I can only blame myself if I die to that after CC breaking from 35%, I should've reacted faster while sorc had GCDs and I didn't.

This is not the case in the video, I react asap (though taken a bit by surprise by getting CC'd when I was supposed to be cloaked) & I'm still dead from 100>0 despite even cloaking after the first kill. It's not even an isolated incident, but more like a common occurrence ever since they made that skill deal damage.

Rianai wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

These builds do not utilize stealth to combo, they do not utilize it for anything but escaping & cheesing out infinite stamina for dodge roll spam (the main point of these builds) with their 3k+ regens.

You rarely (if ever) see them actually cloak->sneak for example, or cloak->heavy attack+SA stun, cloak->asylum snipe etc - stealth combos like you'd have in other MMOs (which usually have entire dedicated bars for stealth skills).

Stealth really is just a "side dish" for those builds, they're called "rollerblades" for a reason.

I see nbs utilizing stealth both offensively and defensively all the time. And most of them turn into free kills once they are marked, so it is hard to belive stealth is only a "side dish" for them. Personally i'm using stealth mostly for defensive purposes, but even with cloak not being my only defense, it doesn't mean it is not an important part of my build.

Your narrow definition of certain builds isn't universally true. You CAN play different stealth builds. You just don't want to. Which is fine of course. But the choice is still there.

Who's exaggerating now? Hardly anyone uses cloak for anything but escaping/stam regen, especially now that Ambush breaks it after this patch. Most don't even know how to properly combo skills from it.


Just as I wouldn't call someone using Igneous Shield a "dmg shield build" I wouldn't call a build using cloak for regen/escaping a "stealth build" - that sounds more like a regular meta rollerblade to me.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

They truly are.

Why do you think Youtube/Twitch are filled with magicka sorcs all playing more or less the same build, where as you'll really have to struggle to find even one person playing a bow build for example?

Players gravitate towards easy, that's why you see shield stackers, megatanks & infinite regen rollerblades everywhere.


Previous patch I would've said rollerblade was the easiest class in the game to play, but that honor has to go to sorcs now with the I-Win Cage existing & sending those infinite regen rollerblades to respawn at the nearest keep as well.

No. People gravitate towards playable.

Sorcs playing the same build is just a giant strawman argument which is in no way related to easy/hard to play.
It´s like me saying you´re a typical nb bc you cloak, snipe shuffle and sneak.

But even if the class got patched easy - you can´t blame the people playing it for it. Most sorcs you meet have been playing the class for ages.

As for your other part - it´s irrelevant how many players are around. If you instagib one out of 5 the fight happened between you and that player. You might or might not be disadvantaged against the other 4 left - depending on their situational awareness.
But you killed the first one from an advantaged position - which is textbook example of a gank.

Grimhallow

Sorcs are powerful this patch, there is no doubt about that. I'm not totally convinced that they are at the top of the food chain quite yet in open world, but time will tell. This is the very beginning of a new patch and a lot will change in the coming weeks as people improve their builds.

That being said, I haven't really experienced the "horror" that is the rune prison/ meteor. I play a stamblade, but as long as my hots are up it really hasn't been an issue. I haven't died 1v1 to a sorc yet, or at least not to that combo.

Unblockable CC's are an important part of counter play to block oriented builds. Combined with things like meteor, that can be nasty against a squishy build, but the damage is low enough to heal through and fully mitigatable. Running heavy armor, or even enough impen with heals, is generally enough to survive most open world encounters.

The biggest issue with rune cage is the inconsistent lag time when breaking the CC. I think if breaking it was a little smoother then people wouldn't die nearly as much.

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

They truly are.

Why do you think Youtube/Twitch are filled with magicka sorcs all playing more or less the same build, where as you'll really have to struggle to find even one person playing a bow build for example?

Players gravitate towards easy, that's why you see shield stackers, megatanks & infinite regen rollerblades everywhere.


Previous patch I would've said rollerblade was the easiest class in the game to play, but that honor has to go to sorcs now with the I-Win Cage existing & sending those infinite regen rollerblades to respawn at the nearest keep as well.

No. People gravitate towards playable.

I can assure you my bow build for example is very playable (even with Rune Cage harming it a lot currently, thank god the infinite CC immunity to Rune Cage/Fossilize bug carried over from PTS), yet it isn't meta.

Why? Because it isn't easy to play.

I can say the same about my DW/Bow medium armor stamblade, though that's a bit less playable atm than the bow build since it not only dies to Rune Cage, but gets more easily sloaded as well since it spends more time outside cloak/sneak.


Still, you see people slotting heavy armor or Impregnable/Brass/whatever tank set they can find because it's the easy way to do things and then stacking regen because, again, it's the easy way to do things.


But yes, in a way you might be right: soon these builds will no longer be even playable because no one cares about them when abilities like Rune Cage get mega buffs and they get hardcountered by more and more things when they didn't deserve "hardcounters" in the first place with their limited sustain (which already serves as a "hardcounter").


And after all, why should anyone care about them? Everyone plays a meta tank build or shield stacker after all.

Derra wrote: »

Sorcs playing the same build is just a giant strawman argument which is in no way related to easy/hard to play.
It´s like me saying you´re a typical nb bc you cloak and sneak.

But even if the class got patched easy - you can´t blame the people playing it for it. Most sorcs you meet have been playing the class for ages.

I said "more or less".

For me anything that streaks around and spams shields looks the same, there's virtually no difference in the playstyle employed.


Meanwhile a bowblade for example plays vastly different to the typical 2H/Bow Incap Relentless rollerblade by utilizing entirely different skill combinations and prioritizing kiting & stealth to spamming dodge rolls/surprise attacks.

My DW/Bow (DW/DW occasionally) melee build is also very different since it never uses Incap->Relentless & doesn't spam dodge roll (instead utilizing DW heavy attack weaves just to sustain with 1,2k stam regen).

The kill combo is also vastly different with it requiring Cloak->DW Heavy+SA->Incap(Selene Proc) for one shot.


Can you say the same about sorc? For me to look at sorc differently you'd have to be doing something like a melee heavy armor build with Boundless Storm etc, or I guess overload gank build is also different enough from the usual shield spam sorc.

Rest? Pretty much the same build as far as I'm concerned.

Derra wrote: »

As for your other part - it´s irrelevant how many players are around. If you instagib one out of 5 the fight happened between you and that player. You might or might not be disadvantaged against the other 4 left - depending on their situational awareness.
But you killed the first one from an advantaged position - which is textbook example of a gank.

No, textbook example is this:

TOP DEFINITION
Ganking
It is a word commonly used in online video games, usualy used in an MMORPG. Ganking is the process in which a group of charecters gang up on one or more players that do not have a chance to defend themselves, Or when one high level player does the same action to a player way below his or her own level

If I have better gear than my opponent or I outnumber them, then I'm ganking.

Attacking from stealth isn't "ganking", it's what stealth builds do in all MMOs. Whether people die to that attack or not isn't a factor - after all there are one shots everywhere in ESO with the most deadly ones of them happening out in the open with Rune Cages & Meteors (or even without the Meteor).