Is Zaan's Broken?

Morgul667

Yes

If its fine how about we make a stamina version of it?

I means its fine right , so that sure would be a fine addition to the game ....

Waffennacht

.

Morgul667 wrote: »

If its fine how about we make a stamina version of it?

I means its fine right , so that sure would be a fine addition to the game ....

So like it does the same thing but the difference is wpn crit chance?
- maybe a Lazer of poison?

Either way my initial reaction is: Stam can already use zaan and a lot of NBs already do

ShadowMonarch

No

Morgul667 wrote: »

If its fine how about we make a stamina version of it?

I means its fine right , so that sure would be a fine addition to the game ....

Stamina builds can already use zaan to great efficiency and some do.

Asmael

Is Zaan broken? Yes and no.

No because...

• Nightblade can cloak to break the beam, even if they are marked
• Templars have access to purge which is reliable enough unless focused by several players
• Sorcerers can break it in a streak or two, helping with positioning
• Mist form helps mitigating a lot of the damage while giving a chance to get away
• Proc sets are overall less effective in CP campaigns, due to higher base HP while similar damage is being dealt with offensive / defensive CPs being decently balanced when excluding critical hits

Yes because...

• Not every PvP environment has CPs, in which Zaan is extremely hard to survive if you can't escape the beam (Sotha Sil or BGs). Turns out: some builds are extremely hard to escape
• Zaan currently ignores line of sight
• Zaan is literally impossible to run away from when the character using it specs for half decent mobility and you don't have the tools required (if you have neither cloak, purge nor streak, usually the case for stam DKs, stam wardens, magicka wardens)
• Zaan can deal stupidly high amounts of damage, as much or more than ultimates. Getting hit by a nightblade means it gets the extra 20% damage, add minor Berzerk (8%) and high spell penetration: you will hit well over 15k damage over Zaan's duration against non-vampires. At the very least, you can expect to get hit for 10k over the whole duration if you are running a tanky build

My personal experience having used it on a stam DK in both CP & non CP campaigns as well as battlegrounds and being on the receiving end quite often: it is entirely dependent on what you are facing and whether you build for it. If I am facing a medium armor build in non CP, they are guaranteed to die if they can't break it. Even heavy armor builds will have to use quite a bit of resources if they are forced into outhealing it.

Because this is a point I have seen mentioned a few times, I'd like to cover it as well: sprinting away from Zaan is going to fail the crushing majority of the time. I run medium armor, Forward momentum and Major expedition as a stam DK, which bar Orc & Minor Expedition is pretty much the most mobility you'll get on the majority of builds. Yet, you will still take at least 3 ticks from it, as well as the full damage if the Zaan user has snare removal and Major Expedition as well. Add root / snare poisons (which ignore immunities), gap closer snares, getting a Zaan proc on you as you get stunned and have defile (say a nightblade starts with HA > Incap and happens to proc it), staying alive is extremely difficult on some builds. As for dodge roll being enough to break the beam - no, it literally never happens as it is barely faster than someone running with major expedition.

On a med armor stam DK in BGs, I used Zaan in combination with SnB / 2h with Pierce armor (Major breach) and Corrosive armor on the backbar. Using Fossilize while an enemy tries to dodge roll away means they effectively wasted a lot of resources, and for magicka builds, this means they can't break free & dodge roll away. Corrosive armor is also an extremely strong baiting tool, pushing your opponents into trying to finish you when they see you at low health regardless of Zaan, very often resulting in their deaths. When they turn their back, it's almost always too late. When Zaan works, it works (a bit too) well.

Now, it does have a long CD and works against a single target while being a DoT, while having some specific counters. The issue as it is is that those counters are mostly class-specific - "you can counter Zaan easily, just don't be a vampire while being stamina, don't use medium armor, don't be a DK or a Warden - or if you are, hope you have a defensive ultimate ready. Also, pray to Sithis your opponent doesn't use mark poisons (vs nightblades) or cost poisons". Running away from the beam is currently not an option - so this is where I'd start looking if I were to change the set.

Ender1310

I think if I dun it up your telling him that he had to stop pressuring. That if he would have stopped trying to kill the noob blade he wouldn't have died to zaans. Ppl get more upset when the don't get their gratification from kills then when they actually die. This seems to be the issue with cloak as well. It's not zomg cloak killed me its zomg he got away. Just an observation. If the set is procci g and killing you one thing. If it's Proccing and forcing you to counter. Non issue.

dsalter

the problem with Zaan is, this game is built around spammable gap closers and instakills.
so any set that locks on and deals continued damage or buffs you before combat is going to be to strong in almost all situations.

Strider__Roshin

Yes

Lol oh yeah! I'd rather get hit by any ultimate in the game over Zaan.

Kel

Yes

Asmael wrote: »

Is Zaan broken? Yes and no.

No because...

• Nightblade can cloak to break the beam, even if they are marked
• Templars have access to purge which is reliable enough unless focused by several players
• Sorcerers can break it in a streak or two, helping with positioning
• Mist form helps mitigating a lot of the damage while giving a chance to get away
• Proc sets are overall less effective in CP campaigns, due to higher base HP while similar damage is being dealt with offensive / defensive CPs being decently balanced when excluding critical hits

Yes because...

• Not every PvP environment has CPs, in which Zaan is extremely hard to survive if you can't escape the beam (Sotha Sil or BGs). Turns out: some builds are extremely hard to escape
• Zaan currently ignores line of sight
• Zaan is literally impossible to run away from when the character using it specs for half decent mobility and you don't have the tools required (if you have neither cloak, purge nor streak, usually the case for stam DKs, stam wardens, magicka wardens)
• Zaan can deal stupidly high amounts of damage, as much or more than ultimates. Getting hit by a nightblade means it gets the extra 20% damage, add minor Berzerk (8%) and high spell penetration: you will hit well over 15k damage over Zaan's duration against non-vampires. At the very least, you can expect to get hit for 10k over the whole duration if you are running a tanky build

My personal experience having used it on a stam DK in both CP & non CP campaigns as well as battlegrounds and being on the receiving end quite often: it is entirely dependent on what you are facing and whether you build for it. If I am facing a medium armor build in non CP, they are guaranteed to die if they can't break it. Even heavy armor builds will have to use quite a bit of resources if they are forced into outhealing it.

Because this is a point I have seen mentioned a few times, I'd like to cover it as well: sprinting away from Zaan is going to fail the crushing majority of the time. I run medium armor, Forward momentum and Major expedition as a stam DK, which bar Orc & Minor Expedition is pretty much the most mobility you'll get on the majority of builds. Yet, you will still take at least 3 ticks from it, as well as the full damage if the Zaan user has snare removal and Major Expedition as well. Add root / snare poisons (which ignore immunities), gap closer snares, getting a Zaan proc on you as you get stunned and have defile (say a nightblade starts with HA > Incap and happens to proc it), staying alive is extremely difficult on some builds. As for dodge roll being enough to break the beam - no, it literally never happens as it is barely faster than someone running with major expedition.

On a med armor stam DK in BGs, I used Zaan in combination with SnB / 2h with Pierce armor (Major breach) and Corrosive armor on the backbar. Using Fossilize while an enemy tries to dodge roll away means they effectively wasted a lot of resources, and for magicka builds, this means they can't break free & dodge roll away. Corrosive armor is also an extremely strong baiting tool, pushing your opponents into trying to finish you when they see you at low health regardless of Zaan, very often resulting in their deaths. When they turn their back, it's almost always too late. When Zaan works, it works (a bit too) well.

Now, it does have a long CD and works against a single target while being a DoT, while having some specific counters. The issue as it is is that those counters are mostly class-specific - "you can counter Zaan easily, just don't be a vampire while being stamina, don't use medium armor, don't be a DK or a Warden - or if you are, hope you have a defensive ultimate ready. Also, pray to Sithis your opponent doesn't use mark poisons (vs nightblades) or cost poisons". Running away from the beam is currently not an option - so this is where I'd start looking if I were to change the set.

Thank you for saying this!
Players who say "It's easy to counter...just move!" seem to forget that the player using Zaan can move with you. Especially in battlegrounds where there's not always a way to get away and LoS doesn't work on this set, for some reason.
Players who use this set know it can break with distance, so they do thier best to stay on you.

Mureel

ecru wrote: »

if everyone is using something you can be pretty sure it's broken

What about if not everyone is using it, like in reality?

Merlin13KAGL

The only issue with Za'an is that it's buffed by Elf Bane, which is counterintuitive, as it's a proc, not an ability.

Vapirko

Please nerf it

Honestly, I think I wouldn't even care half so much if people want to cheese their way to the kills if the game actually functioned properly, if we didn't get health desyncs, if CC immunity worked all the time and we didn't have instances of getting double CC'd. The thing is that all these sets, Zaan, Earthgore, the giant defile circle whatever its called, even Skoria in no CP, they suck so bad partly because you can't rely on the game to properly react to whats happening so the groups that cheese just run over everyone and even if you're a good player with a good build and you know what to do/how to react to a given situation, you can't even do that half the time. You can't rely on your ult to go off or to actually hit someone, you can't really rely on CC immunity or your heals to work properly, or your team mates heals to work on you, role dodging doesnt mean that you wont get hit by frags etc. At the end of the day these sets aren't anywhere near so frustrating or exhausting as the game just not working.

Baphomet

Please nerf it

I know that something is wrong when my semi-tanky DK gets hit for 15-20 k dmg from Zaan while all other incoming attacks range from 1-2 k dmg on my death recap.

Waffennacht

Baphomet wrote: »

I know that something is wrong when my semi-tanky DK gets hit for 15-20 k dmg from Zaan while all other incoming attacks range from 1-2 k dmg on my death recap.

If what you say is true, that's elf bane.

ZoS said they may make elf bane no longer work with Zaan if it's too OP.

Though I'm curious how they would do that without just making an inconsistent mechanics thing

SirCritical

Nah, she is killing groups quite easily ;D

/me trolling

montiferus

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Morgul667 wrote: »

If its fine how about we make a stamina version of it?

I means its fine right , so that sure would be a fine addition to the game ....

So like it does the same thing but the difference is wpn crit chance?
- maybe a Lazer of poison?

Either way my initial reaction is: Stam can already use zaan and a lot of NBs already do

That wasn't his point. If there was a pure stamina equivalent that did poison or disease damage people would be moaning about its performance. Also the fact that stam players even use it at all shows how broken it is.

It needs to go away along with earth gore and all the other sets that carry bad players. I make sure to TB every player I run into that uses it. They should be ashamed.

Nightfall12

Had my first ever death to Zaan's just the other day....never saw it as it was a lag ridden Oh im dead kind of thing, we had stormed the keep and had the flag but appently 37 EP came in the open door at the same time and froze everything. So calling it to early to tell.

Qbiken

No

montiferus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Morgul667 wrote: »

If its fine how about we make a stamina version of it?

I means its fine right , so that sure would be a fine addition to the game ....

So like it does the same thing but the difference is wpn crit chance?
- maybe a Lazer of poison?

Either way my initial reaction is: Stam can already use zaan and a lot of NBs already do

That wasn't his point. If there was a pure stamina equivalent that did poison or disease damage people would be moaning about its performance. Also the fact that stam players even use it at all shows how broken it is.

It needs to go away along with earth gore and all the other sets that carry bad players. I make sure to TB every player I run into that uses it. They should be ashamed.

Ye, T-bag people who use X-set, doesn´t sound toxic at all. That behaviour is a bigger problem than any set in the game will ever be....

I couldn´t care less if a new/less experienced player enjoy the game because they use a certain set or get carried by them. ESO doesn´t have a competitive scene like DOTA or CS:GO so speaking about "skill" in ESO is irrelevant.

BohnT

Yes

Qbiken wrote: »

montiferus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Morgul667 wrote: »

If its fine how about we make a stamina version of it?

I means its fine right , so that sure would be a fine addition to the game ....

So like it does the same thing but the difference is wpn crit chance?
- maybe a Lazer of poison?

Either way my initial reaction is: Stam can already use zaan and a lot of NBs already do

That wasn't his point. If there was a pure stamina equivalent that did poison or disease damage people would be moaning about its performance. Also the fact that stam players even use it at all shows how broken it is.

It needs to go away along with earth gore and all the other sets that carry bad players. I make sure to TB every player I run into that uses it. They should be ashamed.

Ye, T-bag people who use X-set, doesn´t sound toxic at all. That behaviour is a bigger problem than any set in the game will ever be....

I couldn´t care less if a new/less experienced player enjoy the game because they use a certain set or get carried by them. ESO doesn´t have a competitive scene like DOTA or CS:GO so speaking about "skill" in ESO is irrelevant.

There is however a huge skill gap between players and shouldn't be closed by introducing new set or things like Poisons.

And that teabagging actually helps if you just keep teabagging him eventually he'll rage quit and that's one less Zaan user which is always a good thing.

Knootewoot

Well, we can cry only about Zaan. But i think Caluurion also fits the bill.
Viper was eventually fixed. I hope these 2 sets get treatment too.

SugaComa

Yes

BohnT wrote: »

Yes it is.
A set that can kill a player on its own needs to have very very easy counterplay.
Zaan doesn't have that, the wearer can easily stay in a 10m range of it's pretty and force them to take absurd amounts of damage.

A long cooldown doesn't justify a set that makes you win so many fights or apply ∅5k pressure over 5 seconds. Most ults are not able to do that while having more drawbacks, cost something and have easier counterplay

In battle grounds I got hit by a 15k zaan now monster sets should there to give you an edge, a step up , life save, not to do the whole job for you

ShadowMonarch

No

SugaComa wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Yes it is.
A set that can kill a player on its own needs to have very very easy counterplay.
Zaan doesn't have that, the wearer can easily stay in a 10m range of it's pretty and force them to take absurd amounts of damage.

A long cooldown doesn't justify a set that makes you win so many fights or apply ∅5k pressure over 5 seconds. Most ults are not able to do that while having more drawbacks, cost something and have easier counterplay

In battle grounds I got hit by a 15k zaan now monster sets should there to give you an edge, a step up , life save, not to do the whole job for you

You got hit for 15k damage over 5 seconds? Wow thats almost like 3k dps total!!!

Waffennacht

ShadowMonarch wrote: »

SugaComa wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Yes it is.
A set that can kill a player on its own needs to have very very easy counterplay.
Zaan doesn't have that, the wearer can easily stay in a 10m range of it's pretty and force them to take absurd amounts of damage.

A long cooldown doesn't justify a set that makes you win so many fights or apply ∅5k pressure over 5 seconds. Most ults are not able to do that while having more drawbacks, cost something and have easier counterplay

In battle grounds I got hit by a 15k zaan now monster sets should there to give you an edge, a step up , life save, not to do the whole job for you

You got hit for 15k damage over 5 seconds? Wow thats almost like 3k dps total!!!

Which is the equivalent of spamming force Pulse 5 times in a row - but with no GCDs or cost. (3k real dps in BGs is huge)

Taylor_MB

Yes

There is only 1 player who regularly uses Zaan in Sotha PC/NA that I've come across and it's absolutely embarrassing how OP this set it. They basically just stall and run away until Zaan is off cool down, never come close to dying to them with out a Zaan proc.

Literally just stood inside their weak destro ult and healed through only to have Zaan proc after 7 seconds and kill me (combined with a sneaky sub assault from another player).

If you swap Zaan on their build with any other monster helm, they'll be back to only killing potatoes.

Stibbons

Its fine

Zaan is just fine. Read the tooltip live servers.

frozenbbq

Yes

Zaans counters 2 classes, warden and dragonknight. Reason being there are only 3 ways to break the beam. LoS/ Cloak/ Purge. LoS being selectively availibledue to enviroment, purge the most reliable but not very viable to slot on non templars as the skill from the support line too expensive. Last skill that can break zaans is cloak, not as reliable as purge as if marked you still will get hit. The counters aside it also hits extremely hard, the amount of dmg it gives out is how hard an ulti hits. With zaans ticking and additional pressure being applied it makes it very difficult for the enemy to not turtle up. A fews changes that could be made could be: shorter range, less dmg multiplier per tick, multipliers (e.g. thaumaturge)

Marcus684

NB + cost poison + Zaan = almost guaranteed kill.

Aedaryl

Please nerf it

Shuuuuut.

Zaan is fine. it looks good on my selfbuffed (potion + food + weap glyph) melee magblade.

Move away

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=47866

Mr_Nobody

Dodge roll and sprinting for 1 second counters it. Blocking counters it. The above mentioned Purge/Cloak counter it. Streak counters it. Basically if you are not afk - you will counter it.

OP? Depends. If a CP196 Stam NB jumped on me and randomly died to a Zaan proc in 1 second - may look OP, not like he would have not died after an additional second without Zaan playing its part.

WeylandLabs

ESO is broken lol

BohnT

Yes

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Dodge roll and sprinting for 1 second counters it. Blocking counters it. The above mentioned Purge/Cloak counter it. Streak counters it. Basically if you are not afk - you will counter it.

OP? Depends. If a CP196 Stam NB jumped on me and randomly died to a Zaan proc in 1 second - may look OP, not like he would have not died after an additional second without Zaan playing its part.

Sprint and dodge don't counter it or are you unable to walk when using Zaan? Right you are not.
Purge doesn't work fast enough and isn't reliable.
Blocking Zaan still deals absurd amounts of damage while it drains stamina 5 seconds of block with maximum cost reduction costs 8000 stamina on an build with no cost reduction you are looking at 32000 stamina while you are still taking lots of damage.

The only viable counters are cloak and streak meaning 3 classes get rekt by a set unless the user isn't fully ***.