"Arena" weapons desperately need a 1pc stat bonus — a detailed explanation

  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.

    Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.

    But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.

    I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.

    The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.

    That was made pretty clear in the opening post.

    Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.

    Ok ...

    But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).

    It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.

    Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).

    Dont even belive for a second that adding additional stat bonus to master or maelstrom dual wield will sudenly make it rerasonable option for PvE. When it comes to PvP though well master duals are already too strong and buffing them even further would be a joke.
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.

    Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.

    But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.

    I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.

    The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.

    That was made pretty clear in the opening post.

    Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.

    Ok ...

    But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).

    It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.

    Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).

    Dont even belive for a second that adding additional stat bonus to master or maelstrom dual wield will sudenly make it rerasonable option for PvE. When it comes to PvP though well master duals are already too strong and buffing them even further would be a joke.

    Have you tested Maelstrom or Master DW weapons recently?

    They're not far behind. If you run a 5/5/2 setup, you keep both 5-pieces on both bars, which is a small DPS gain, and the bonus DoTdamage from Master's DW is similar to Velidreth in pure single target. I see similar DPS with Maelstrom DW without even optimizing the rotation. In my case these setups are maybe ~2k behind a "meta" 5/5/2 setup in a solo parse.

    So yes, I do believe that those weapons would be in play if the stat bonus was returned, keeping in mind that the stat bonuses were larger than typical set bonuses (+189 weapon/spell damage on Maelstrom). They might not be strictly "BiS" but they'd be pretty close.
    Edited by LiquidPony on August 11, 2018 8:38AM
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    ✭✭
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.

    Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.

    But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.

    I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.

    The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.

    That was made pretty clear in the opening post.

    Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.

    Ok ...

    But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).

    It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.

    Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).

    Dont even belive for a second that adding additional stat bonus to master or maelstrom dual wield will sudenly make it rerasonable option for PvE. When it comes to PvP though well master duals are already too strong and buffing them even further would be a joke.

    Have you tested Maelstrom or Master DW weapons recently?

    They're not far behind. If you run a 5/5/2 setup, you keep both 5-pieces on both bars, which is a small DPS gain, and the bonus DoTdamage from Master's DW is similar to Velidreth in pure single target. I see similar DPS with Maelstrom DW without even optimizing the rotation. In my case these setups are maybe ~2k behind a "meta" 5/5/2 setup in a solo parse.

    So yes, I do believe that those weapons would be in play if the stat bonus was returned, keeping in mind that the stat bonuses were larger than typical set bonuses (+189 weapon/spell damage on Maelstrom). They might not be strictly "BiS" but they'd be pretty close.

    Those weapons may not be far behind standard setups on selfbuffed skeleton parse but selfbuffed skeleton parse is far behind real fight scenarios.

    Edited by Juhasow on August 11, 2018 3:45PM
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.

    Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.

    But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.

    I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.

    The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.

    That was made pretty clear in the opening post.

    Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.

    Ok ...

    But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).

    It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.

    Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).

    Dont even belive for a second that adding additional stat bonus to master or maelstrom dual wield will sudenly make it rerasonable option for PvE. When it comes to PvP though well master duals are already too strong and buffing them even further would be a joke.

    Have you tested Maelstrom or Master DW weapons recently?

    They're not far behind. If you run a 5/5/2 setup, you keep both 5-pieces on both bars, which is a small DPS gain, and the bonus DoTdamage from Master's DW is similar to Velidreth in pure single target. I see similar DPS with Maelstrom DW without even optimizing the rotation. In my case these setups are maybe ~2k behind a "meta" 5/5/2 setup in a solo parse.

    So yes, I do believe that those weapons would be in play if the stat bonus was returned, keeping in mind that the stat bonuses were larger than typical set bonuses (+189 weapon/spell damage on Maelstrom). They might not be strictly "BiS" but they'd be pretty close.

    Those weapons may not be far behind standard setups on selfbuffed skeleton parse but selfbuffed skeleton parse is far behind real fight scenarios.

    @Juhasow in what way does a Monster set proc, which cannot crit and is not buffed by increased weapon/spell damage, have an advantage over the ability altering DW weapons in "real fight scenarios"?

    Seems like you're just hand-waving away the point when in fact logically the opposite is true, since the benefits provided by ability altering DW weapons will be increased by more group buffs.

    So I ask again: have you actually tested them recently?

    Adding the stat bonuses back would make for some interesting gear decisions depending on the fight.
  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.

    Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.

    But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.

    I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.

    The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.

    That was made pretty clear in the opening post.

    Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.

    Ok ...

    But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).

    It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.

    Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).

    Dont even belive for a second that adding additional stat bonus to master or maelstrom dual wield will sudenly make it rerasonable option for PvE. When it comes to PvP though well master duals are already too strong and buffing them even further would be a joke.

    Just as an fyi, if you are doing trials that have lots of trash (maybe besides asylum) 2h vdsa is the absolute best weapon to have. You can literally stand in shatters in maw and spam brawler and not die...so the weapons definitely have a purpose, but definitely situationally.
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Juhasow wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.

    Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.

    But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.

    I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.

    The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.

    That was made pretty clear in the opening post.

    Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.

    Ok ...

    But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).

    It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.

    Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).

    Dont even belive for a second that adding additional stat bonus to master or maelstrom dual wield will sudenly make it rerasonable option for PvE. When it comes to PvP though well master duals are already too strong and buffing them even further would be a joke.

    Just as an fyi, if you are doing trials that have lots of trash (maybe besides asylum) 2h vdsa is the absolute best weapon to have. You can literally stand in shatters in maw and spam brawler and not die...so the weapons definitely have a purpose, but definitely situationally.

    Idk why You bring up master 2 hand since conversation was about dual wields but anyway even 2 hander is extremly situational and most of the time group will be better with steel tornado spam since time needed for tank to pack mobs tight for brawler to deal dmg to all of them makes it longer then just kiling mobs with spin to win. Also on consoles people cannot switch whole gear with 1 click thanks for add ons so changing gear between fights would be just another waste of time so that makes master 2 hand even more situational.
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    ✭✭
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.

    Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.

    But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.

    I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.

    The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.

    That was made pretty clear in the opening post.

    Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.

    Ok ...

    But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).

    It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.

    Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).

    Dont even belive for a second that adding additional stat bonus to master or maelstrom dual wield will sudenly make it rerasonable option for PvE. When it comes to PvP though well master duals are already too strong and buffing them even further would be a joke.

    Have you tested Maelstrom or Master DW weapons recently?

    They're not far behind. If you run a 5/5/2 setup, you keep both 5-pieces on both bars, which is a small DPS gain, and the bonus DoTdamage from Master's DW is similar to Velidreth in pure single target. I see similar DPS with Maelstrom DW without even optimizing the rotation. In my case these setups are maybe ~2k behind a "meta" 5/5/2 setup in a solo parse.

    So yes, I do believe that those weapons would be in play if the stat bonus was returned, keeping in mind that the stat bonuses were larger than typical set bonuses (+189 weapon/spell damage on Maelstrom). They might not be strictly "BiS" but they'd be pretty close.

    Those weapons may not be far behind standard setups on selfbuffed skeleton parse but selfbuffed skeleton parse is far behind real fight scenarios.

    @Juhasow in what way does a Monster set proc, which cannot crit and is not buffed by increased weapon/spell damage, have an advantage over the ability altering DW weapons in "real fight scenarios"?

    Seems like you're just hand-waving away the point when in fact logically the opposite is true, since the benefits provided by ability altering DW weapons will be increased by more group buffs.

    So I ask again: have you actually tested them recently?

    Adding the stat bonuses back would make for some interesting gear decisions depending on the fight.

    Which monster sets You're comparing those weapons with ? Selene and Veli ?
  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Juhasow wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.

    Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.

    But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.

    I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.

    The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.

    That was made pretty clear in the opening post.

    Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.

    Ok ...

    But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).

    It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.

    Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).

    Dont even belive for a second that adding additional stat bonus to master or maelstrom dual wield will sudenly make it rerasonable option for PvE. When it comes to PvP though well master duals are already too strong and buffing them even further would be a joke.

    Just as an fyi, if you are doing trials that have lots of trash (maybe besides asylum) 2h vdsa is the absolute best weapon to have. You can literally stand in shatters in maw and spam brawler and not die...so the weapons definitely have a purpose, but definitely situationally.

    Idk why You bring up master 2 hand since conversation was about dual wields but anyway even 2 hander is extremly situational and most of the time group will be better with steel tornado spam since time needed for tank to pack mobs tight for brawler to deal dmg to all of them makes it longer then just kiling mobs with spin to win. Also on consoles people cannot switch whole gear with 1 click thanks for add ons so changing gear between fights would be just another waste of time so that makes master 2 hand even more situational.

    Actually the post WAS about 2H. As far as the stacks not being tight thats an l2p on the tanks part...as far as the console comment goes, I guess that just sucks for them:/ but I would definitely recommend 2h for trash for groups competing for top scores...
  • Shokasegambit1
    Shokasegambit1
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    This is officially my favorite thread, reward good gameplay again.

    What a great post @TheYKcid Thank you...
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    You're very welcome @Shokasegambit1 :)
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • JPcrazysquirrel3
    JPcrazysquirrel3
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    Frankly, as someone who doesn't want to devote large swathes of their life to Maelstrom arena, I'm glad it isn't a hard requirement to do competitive dps anymore.

    To everyone who did farm VMA hardcore, and spent days of their lives perfecting their runs, I'm sorry. But think of the health of the game as a whole. Endgame group content should not be gated behind one drop from one place, and a solo instance nonetheless.

    Challenges are nice and all, and I think effort should be rewarded, but VMA should not be the gatekeeper for competitive endgame dps. PvE in MMOs is all about specialization. VMA encourages / demands damage output, survivability, and even some tanking elements. It's unrealistic that any player in any group content will need to exhibit all 3 of these roles at once. That's the point of roles. That's the point of the holy trinity of MMOs. As a dps, if more than 1 or 2 mobs are attacking you in group content, the tank isn't doing their job. If you're using more than the occasional self heal as a dps, the healer isn't doing their job.

    VMA directly opposes the spirit of group content, as established by WoW and early MMOs and continued into this game. That's why it's so silly that VMA is a hard requirement to be considered "good" in group content.

    Now, players have the option to NOT have to devote dozens or even hundreds of hours to VMA if they want to be trial-ready. It's a good thing for the majority, and I'm sorry that the minority feel so burned over this.

    EDIT: there should have been 3 VMA variants all along. One that emphasized tanking, one for dps, and one for healing. Then I would be able to accept it being the gatekeeper for such powerful PvE weapons.

    I completely agree with your overall sentiment.

    However, one part bothers me.
    As a dps, if more than 1 or 2 mobs are attacking you in group content, the tank isn't doing their job.

    I'm sorry, but when there are 15+ adds in dungeons, the DPS should not expect the tank to constantly be herding all of the adds. At least until ZOS gets half a brain and finally gives us a wide AoE taunt that can be accessed by any class. Some adds are going to slip through, or the taunt duration will expire while the tank is trying to maintain aggro on all the other adds.

    The DPS should have some self-survivability of their own. Especially these days where everyone would rather go 3 DPS and a tank and no healer. Hell, even in groups with a healer, I've found that I, as a tank, would have to try and keep the DPS healed during boss fights, because the "healer" couldn't. Just one of the many reasons I prefer running my Warden tank anymore these days.
    "Wood Elves aren't made of wood, Sea Elves aren't made of water. M'aiq still wonders about High Elves."
    "It's just not a home until you decorate the torture chamber, am I right?"
    "If you want to lose 10lbs of ugly fat, I'd be happy to chop your head off!"
    "Degenerates!" --- Todd Howard

    Main on PS4
    --- JPcrazysquirrel3

    PC (just for PTS since DB)
    --- thekiltedpir8

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Playing since console release in 2015, 15 characters, mainly play PvE tank and PvP stamblade, but I also have a handful of DPS toons, a healer, a PvP utility/negate tank and others to have variety. All AD, with one, now PvE, DC toon.

    I was on the forums before, but something happened with my account info and I had to create a new account
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    A build without vMA weapons can easily pull 30k+ solo DPS these days, which is enough for all PvE content up to vMoL. Anyone who intends to progress beyond this to tackle even harder content, should have no issues completing vMA.

    The instance only requires you to have a decent response time and be familiar with basic NPC mechanics that you'd have encountered in the overland and basic dungeons. If you can't manage this, you shouldn't be considering content beyond the difficulty scope of vMoL.

    To phrase it succinctly: if you can't obtain vMA weapons, you don't need them.
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    A build without vMA weapons can easily pull 30k+ solo DPS these days, which is enough for all PvE content up to vMoL. Anyone who intends to progress beyond this to tackle even harder content, should have no issues completing vMA.

    The instance only requires you to have a decent response time and be familiar with basic NPC mechanics that you'd have encountered in the overland and basic dungeons. If you can't manage this, you shouldn't be considering content beyond the difficulty scope of vMoL.

    To phrase it succinctly: if you can't obtain vMA weapons, you don't need them.

    Agreed
    Zebendal- Stam Sorc, PC NA
  • del9
    del9
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    Have we really still seen no movement on this?

    Two- handed Arena weapons have vanished from most builds, except maybe mSorc who is now being almost forced to run a master Destro for a CC.

    This is needed for build diversity and balance and is long overdue! I am curious how many players even use pieces like vMA or Asylum 2-handed anymore.

    And I believe new unique weapons have been teased for Murkmire. I hope they address this balance issue before completing those new weapon designs!
    PCNA

  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    No movement, no.

    Thing is, there's a clear, easily noticeable trend among vMA weapons: only those of them have shown themselves viable and survived the trial by time that work on back bar; those that give bonuses that carry over to front bar after swap. In other words, those that let players keep the full effect of 5/5/2 sets during whole rotation, not gimping them by forcing to sacrifice 4- and 5-piece effect of one of their sets. So, even before Summerset, vMA weapons that were operating on front bar weren't worth the set slots lost by using them. It seems the only reason inferno and bow survive is by giving their bonus without taking 5/5/2 bonus away most of rotation. I see it as a failure at set design.

    The more I think of it, the more I feel that it would be better if vMA was dropping unique enchantments roughly equal to effects of those sets (say, "Cruel Flurry" glyph), so they could be applied to weapons of any set without taking away set bonuses. But it's just a random idea, and it feels that vMA is old and uninteresting for ZOS by now, and they're not interested in revitalizing that piece of content anymore.
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Not a peep from the devs, unfortunately. I've also tried to draw class rep attention to the issue on other threads, with no luck so far it seems.

    I'll keep this thread alive in the meantime though, and hopefully it gets addressed during the Murkmire PTS cycle. As del said, the spotlight will be on Arena weapons once again, with the new ones planned for release.

    I should also get around to updating the opening post to a post-Summerset iteration, one of these days when I'm not feeling so lazy...
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • mr_wazzabi
    mr_wazzabi
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    @masel92 has this been talked about in the meetings?

    Vma 2h and majority of arena weapons are way outclassed by 5 set weapons. For the effort it takes to complete that content, they should at least equal them. A pair of vma or master daggers should equal the dps of advancing yokeda daggers.
    Bosmer Stamina NB
    Altmer Magicka TEMP
    Dunmer DK both stam/mag (depends what I feel like)
    Altmer Magicka NB
    Breton Magicka Sorc
    Redguard Stam Sorc
    Max CP
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    No official confirmation, but I've seen this screenshot floating around a few Discords. Looks hopeful on 1pc bonuses returning to these weapons. They have the standard magnitude of a set bonus, not the 1.5X that Maelstrom used to have, but I'll take what I can get.
    blackrose_weapons.png
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    @WrathOfInnos thanks for sharing! That makes me hopeful.

    I actually agree that the standard 1pc stat value would be more balanced in the current game-state.

    In the past, you'd have to choose between a poison or the special effect. Now you can have both (or an enchant + effect), so it makes sense that the raw stat bonus should be toned-down a bit.

    On a sidenote, those new Arena weps look intriguing!
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • GrumpyDuckling
    GrumpyDuckling
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    @TheYKcid

    It would be great if you could resurrect this thread. Sure, we got 1 pc bonuses on Blackrose weapons, but we're still missing out on 1 pc bonuses for the other arena weapons.

    Your points are still valid, and they're worth putting back on the radar for the upcoming PTS.

    Edit: You can ignore this. I just noticed you created a new thread about it. Thanks.
    Edited by GrumpyDuckling on January 7, 2019 6:53PM
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