"Arena" weapons desperately need a 1pc stat bonus — a detailed explanation

  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    Yes they need a buff. Front bar arena weapons are weaker than alternatives across the board. I'm not even asking for them to be BIS, just make them at least equivalent to the crafted or tradeable sets. I'm not sure if even a 1.5x standard set bonus would be enough.
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Well... PTS 4.0.4, the final iteration, has been released. No changes to Arena weapons.

    Always the possibility of a last-minute revision when Summerset goes live, I suppose.

    But in all likelihood this is what we're stuck with. Dozens to hundreds of hours of effort relegated to obsolete content.
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • RoyJade
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    Don't dez these yet, there is still hope for a future PTS. Let's just show to ZOS how they're nearly obsolete on this cycle, and perhaps they'll do what need to be done in a few month.
  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
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    Vma dw has been bugged for a while
    Zebendal- Stam Sorc, PC NA
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Giving this a last-ditch bump, since there's still a slim chance for a last-minute revision on patch day.

    Either way, thanks for the support and extensive discussion. Perhaps we can raise the issue again once the next PTS cycle rolls around.
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Vma dw has been bugged for a while

    They work now :wink:
    PC EU - CP 1100+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
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    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
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  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Giving this a last-ditch bump, since there's still a slim chance for a last-minute revision on patch day.

    Either way, thanks for the support and extensive discussion. Perhaps we can raise the issue again once the next PTS cycle rolls around.

    They want people with 5k gold in their pocket to feel powerful
    Zebendal- Stam Sorc, PC NA
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    If lack of this change wil atelast partially stop master destro/dual wield abusers in PvP then I am ok with that. Since Zenimax is unable to balance certain weapons that overperform , better general lowering of effectiveness of all of them then few of them reigning supreme and beeing cancerous easy mode for another few months.
    Edited by Juhasow on May 20, 2018 6:48PM
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Asylum destro is still nice though, with golden willpower you can technically get to the same stats as a 5p.

    Mag warden 42.4k selfbuffed 6m dummy with perfect asylum:



    I tested lots of setups and this one is actually the strongest I could find!
    PC EU - CP 1100+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD and Hobbytank - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason
    Shéogórath - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason + Bringer of Light
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer & Voice of Reason
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Igneous Lizard Wizard - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror
    Spongecroc Scalepants - Warden - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
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  • Matrix117
    Matrix117
    I believe not just 2h but also DW/SnB has had this same issue but for much longer, as they have always replaced 2 set pieces. Giving the 1pc back to these sets will make vMA DW at least considerable in a LA rotation and Master DW in pvp will make it more than viable in bleed builds. I have never used any SnB weapons so I can't comment on their performance or speculate how much they will improve in effectiveness if a 1pc was reintroduced.

    I strongly believe this 1pc for arena weapons should drop with the 2h set change to bring back a lot of arena weapons on front bar. ZOS needs to make it happen.
  • SaucyMcSauceface
    SaucyMcSauceface
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    ZOS_JesC wrote: »
    Greetings! We've remove some nonconstructive and baiting comments. This is a friendly reminder to make sure what you're posting adds to the discussion in a constructive way. It's fine to disagree with comments made, however if you do not wish to debate the subject in a constructive manner, please reconsider posting a response. Thank you for your understanding.

    It is really nice to know that these threads are actually being read. If only we could get to the point where the responses from ZOS actually addressed the issues raised....
  • amir412
    amir412
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    Ye, buff master axes pls, the 2.5k ticks is not strong enough!
    PC | EU | AD |Veteran Stam Dk named "-Saidden"| 1020 CP|
    "..A world without fire. Ashen one, is this truly thy wish?.."


  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
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    please update them zos
    Zebendal- Stam Sorc, PC NA
  • Zeromaz
    Zeromaz
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    Vote for extra stats on arena weapons. Even if its extra stam/magicka/crit
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.

    Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.

    Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.

    But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.

    Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.

    But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.

    I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.

    The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.

    That was made pretty clear in the opening post.
    Edited by TheYKcid on August 10, 2018 12:40PM
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Still waiting for the 1p setupbonus to come back.

    :(
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - Grand Overlord - Spotless Dro-m'Athra Destroyer pre one Tamriel
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - Grand Overlord
    ... - DC - NB

  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.

    Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.

    But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.

    I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.

    The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.

    That was made pretty clear in the opening post.

    Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.

    Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.

    But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.

    I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.

    The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.

    That was made pretty clear in the opening post.

    Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.

    The day I see you running around Cyrodiil with a vacant helmet slot is the day I'll take you seriously when you claim that losing a set bonus isn't a game-changer.
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
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    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.

    Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.

    But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.

    I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.

    The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.

    That was made pretty clear in the opening post.

    Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.

    Ok ...

    But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).

    It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.

    Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    There isn't even a remotely believable case against the reach-spam meta—anyone with substantial experience playing on and against a Magsorc would know that reach-spam sorc was the weakest version of the class in the past one year.

    Sorcs defaulted to Master's destro simply because it was the only viable CC option. Frags lost its stun after HotR, and Rune Cage was terrible until Summerset.

    Reach-spam isn't an outlier in the "arena weapons need a buff" issue; it's exemplary of it.
    Edited by TheYKcid on August 10, 2018 7:15PM
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • Dracane
    Dracane
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    I remain hopeful, that they do this with Murkmire. They must make those weapons appealing again, or few will care for their new arena. Why farm this when those weapons are questionable at the best ?

    This elemental drain staff better be a beast, as it must not only compete with any superior 5 piece or monster set, but also with my Maelstrom staff. By Xarxes, just give those weapons 200 spell damage or weapon damage and they will finally be good again. We don't run this drama over and over for mediocre weapons.
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  • Rianai
    Rianai
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    The usefulness of ability altering weapons depends mostly on their special effect and not on a little bit more or less stats. Some of those weapons are still very strong - even meta- in both PvE and PvP. They pair especially well with sets that can be used on one bar only. Adding stats to those weapons won't change much. Those which are already strong and doesn't need a buff will be even stronger, others will remain useless.
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Rianai wrote: »
    The usefulness of ability altering weapons depends mostly on their special effect and not on a little bit more or less stats. Some of those weapons are still very strong - even meta- in both PvE and PvP. They pair especially well with sets that can be used on one bar only. Adding stats to those weapons won't change much. Those which are already strong and doesn't need a buff will be even stronger, others will remain useless.

    I don't see how we would arrive at such an outcome. All the currently good Arena weapons (excluding the perfected Asylum, which is only used on PvE magsorc these days) are backbar ones.

    PvP: Master's DW, Master's bow,
    PvE: vMA destro, vMA bow

    Yes, adding stats to these will make them slightly stronger, but not to any appreciable extent, since they're on your backbar to begin with. The backbar is primarily used for rebuffing and laying ground-DoTs, both of which don't care about slightly higher stats on that bar (ground DoTs scale-off the current bar, and thus update their tooltips when you swap back to front).

    Conversely, having a stat bonus on your frontbar matters tremendously, as the bulk of your damage is dealt on this bar, and thus scales-off whatever stats are active on this bar. Direct damage, sticky DoTs, and previously-applied ground DoTs are the specific damage sources I'm talking about.

    So the current BiS options will stay BiS with negligible changes. On the flipside, a whole lot of frontbar options will become viable as part of this change. Namely among the 2H weapons, as mentioned in the OP.

    So what we end up with is lots more build diversity, no disruption to the BiS, and no obsolescence of any current builds. What's the downside?
    ...

    On a sidenote, I'm aware that you can currently run Master's DW frontbar with moderate success. However, 3pc agi + Master's DW still gives less stats than a simple set of Hunding's with a 2H (even when accounting for DW passives!). It's always sub-optimal to frontbar Arena sets at present (unless, in this particular case, you maybe wanted the utility of steel tornado, which is different issue altogether).
    Edited by TheYKcid on August 10, 2018 8:32PM
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • Rianai
    Rianai
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    You are only taking frontbar arena weapons in combination with Agi/WP into consideration. But those weapons can also be combined with 5p backbar sets like Lich which pairs well with Master Destro for example. I would have been running Master DW frontbar (if i had those weapons - used Agi instead) on stam sorc with Prisoners backbar. Master Resto is a very strong mainbar weapon for healers. I also don't agree that stats don't matter on your backbar, since applying buffs and DoTs takes some time which you will spend on that bar.
    However since many effects from arena weapons carry over to the other bar it naturally makes them predestinated as backbar weapons. It is not just a matter of stats. And some arena weapons with direct effects, such as Master and Asylum Destro, are already decent frontbar weapons.

    I can understand that farming those weapons takes some efford and therefore players want an adequate reward, but on the other hand not everyone - especially PvP players - can and/or want to farm hard PvE content, which often requires a dedicated grp, and buffing some of the already strong ones might end up making them too strong, to the point where those who don't have access for whatever reason are at disadvantage. I don't agree that those weapons should be better than alternatives. Players should do content because they enjoy it, not because they are forced to do it to stay competitive.
    So i'd rather buff the unused weapons instead of all of them. Because buffing BIS, even if it is just a small buff, never improves balance and diversity.
    Edited by Rianai on August 10, 2018 8:54PM
  • TheYKcid
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    Rianai wrote: »
    ...since many effects from arena weapons carry over to the other bar it naturally makes them predestinated as backbar weapons ... I don't agree that those weapons should be better than alternatives.

    But by the very design nature of these items (backbar Arena weps) that you've highlighted, they will be better than the alternatives, by default.

    The fact that their effects can carry-over and stack with other sets on the frontbar means that they will be BiS regardless of my implemented buff (as you said, it's not as issue of raw stats in this particular example). Hell, you could even make vMA staff/bow DEDUCT 129 WD/SD as a 1pc bonus and they would still be the first choice. I maintain that the suggested change will have no discernable impact in this regard.

    On the other hand, concerning the frontbar Arena weps, neither am I asking that these be made to suddenly outshine all other 5pc sets either. I explain in the OP why, even after a +129 WD/SD buff, they would perform on-par with your average 5pc set (as opposed to woefully disadvantaged).

    I do agree with you, however, that buffing the underperforming weapons individually would be the most ideal outcome. But adding a 1pc stat bonus to some, but not others, would be antithetical to the very rigid 1-4 + 5pc set bonus system that the game runs on.

    Alternatively, no amount of buffing the effect would matter in some cases. Take the vMA 2H. Tuning-up the DoT would be irrelevant since, as we've already agreed, carry-over effects naturally lend themselves to backbar sets. And why backbar vMA 2H, when you can use the far more useful Master's DW instead? For a frontbar set, raw stats is king.

    Adding the 1pc stat bonus would be consistent with current item systems, simple to implement, have minimal external influence, and most importantly, solve the issue effectively, which is why I went with the idea as a realistic compromise.
    Edited by TheYKcid on August 10, 2018 9:13PM
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Juhasow wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.

    Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.

    But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.

    I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.

    The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.

    That was made pretty clear in the opening post.

    Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.

    The day I see you running around Cyrodiil with a vacant helmet slot is the day I'll take you seriously when you claim that losing a set bonus isn't a game-changer.

    Hmm so You call additional 2k dmg to reach and 30% its cost reduction nothing. Ok...

    it's literally like having 1 pc monster set and choosing between 2nd piece of it or piece from another monster for better stats. Simple choice You either choose stats or set bonus , You either wanna buff slightly all Your abilities on front bar or overbuff one of them. You are just greedy and want both.

    Also funny story I was once running whole day without monster helment with some random set helmet instead. You wanna know why it tooked me whole day to figure that out ? Because difference was not that noticable.
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    There isn't even a remotely believable case against the reach-spam meta—anyone with substantial experience playing on and against a Magsorc would know that reach-spam sorc was the weakest version of the class in the past one year.

    Sorcs defaulted to Master's destro simply because it was the only viable CC option. Frags lost its stun after HotR, and Rune Cage was terrible until Summerset.

    Reach-spam isn't an outlier in the "arena weapons need a buff" issue; it's exemplary of it.

    Anyone with substantial experience playing on magsorc would also know that 1k additional magicka wont change much in reach spamming build.

    Also saying that Rune Cage before Summerset changes was a trash is straight lie. It was same hard CC going through block and dodge from 40 meters just with shorter duration which doesnt change much and with dmg that was not guaranteed. People were just hyped about Master Destro meta because when it worked it was just brainless and easy killing plus You had 1 more skill slot free.
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