LiquidPony wrote: »Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.
Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.
But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.
I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.
The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.
That was made pretty clear in the opening post.
Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.
Ok ...
But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).
It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.
Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).
LiquidPony wrote: »Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.
Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.
But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.
I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.
The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.
That was made pretty clear in the opening post.
Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.
Ok ...
But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).
It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.
Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).
Dont even belive for a second that adding additional stat bonus to master or maelstrom dual wield will sudenly make it rerasonable option for PvE. When it comes to PvP though well master duals are already too strong and buffing them even further would be a joke.
LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.
Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.
But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.
I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.
The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.
That was made pretty clear in the opening post.
Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.
Ok ...
But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).
It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.
Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).
Dont even belive for a second that adding additional stat bonus to master or maelstrom dual wield will sudenly make it rerasonable option for PvE. When it comes to PvP though well master duals are already too strong and buffing them even further would be a joke.
Have you tested Maelstrom or Master DW weapons recently?
They're not far behind. If you run a 5/5/2 setup, you keep both 5-pieces on both bars, which is a small DPS gain, and the bonus DoTdamage from Master's DW is similar to Velidreth in pure single target. I see similar DPS with Maelstrom DW without even optimizing the rotation. In my case these setups are maybe ~2k behind a "meta" 5/5/2 setup in a solo parse.
So yes, I do believe that those weapons would be in play if the stat bonus was returned, keeping in mind that the stat bonuses were larger than typical set bonuses (+189 weapon/spell damage on Maelstrom). They might not be strictly "BiS" but they'd be pretty close.
LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.
Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.
But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.
I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.
The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.
That was made pretty clear in the opening post.
Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.
Ok ...
But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).
It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.
Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).
Dont even belive for a second that adding additional stat bonus to master or maelstrom dual wield will sudenly make it rerasonable option for PvE. When it comes to PvP though well master duals are already too strong and buffing them even further would be a joke.
Have you tested Maelstrom or Master DW weapons recently?
They're not far behind. If you run a 5/5/2 setup, you keep both 5-pieces on both bars, which is a small DPS gain, and the bonus DoTdamage from Master's DW is similar to Velidreth in pure single target. I see similar DPS with Maelstrom DW without even optimizing the rotation. In my case these setups are maybe ~2k behind a "meta" 5/5/2 setup in a solo parse.
So yes, I do believe that those weapons would be in play if the stat bonus was returned, keeping in mind that the stat bonuses were larger than typical set bonuses (+189 weapon/spell damage on Maelstrom). They might not be strictly "BiS" but they'd be pretty close.
Those weapons may not be far behind standard setups on selfbuffed skeleton parse but selfbuffed skeleton parse is far behind real fight scenarios.
LiquidPony wrote: »Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.
Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.
But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.
I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.
The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.
That was made pretty clear in the opening post.
Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.
Ok ...
But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).
It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.
Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).
Dont even belive for a second that adding additional stat bonus to master or maelstrom dual wield will sudenly make it rerasonable option for PvE. When it comes to PvP though well master duals are already too strong and buffing them even further would be a joke.
hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.
Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.
But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.
I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.
The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.
That was made pretty clear in the opening post.
Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.
Ok ...
But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).
It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.
Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).
Dont even belive for a second that adding additional stat bonus to master or maelstrom dual wield will sudenly make it rerasonable option for PvE. When it comes to PvP though well master duals are already too strong and buffing them even further would be a joke.
Just as an fyi, if you are doing trials that have lots of trash (maybe besides asylum) 2h vdsa is the absolute best weapon to have. You can literally stand in shatters in maw and spam brawler and not die...so the weapons definitely have a purpose, but definitely situationally.
LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.
Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.
But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.
I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.
The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.
That was made pretty clear in the opening post.
Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.
Ok ...
But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).
It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.
Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).
Dont even belive for a second that adding additional stat bonus to master or maelstrom dual wield will sudenly make it rerasonable option for PvE. When it comes to PvP though well master duals are already too strong and buffing them even further would be a joke.
Have you tested Maelstrom or Master DW weapons recently?
They're not far behind. If you run a 5/5/2 setup, you keep both 5-pieces on both bars, which is a small DPS gain, and the bonus DoTdamage from Master's DW is similar to Velidreth in pure single target. I see similar DPS with Maelstrom DW without even optimizing the rotation. In my case these setups are maybe ~2k behind a "meta" 5/5/2 setup in a solo parse.
So yes, I do believe that those weapons would be in play if the stat bonus was returned, keeping in mind that the stat bonuses were larger than typical set bonuses (+189 weapon/spell damage on Maelstrom). They might not be strictly "BiS" but they'd be pretty close.
Those weapons may not be far behind standard setups on selfbuffed skeleton parse but selfbuffed skeleton parse is far behind real fight scenarios.
@Juhasow in what way does a Monster set proc, which cannot crit and is not buffed by increased weapon/spell damage, have an advantage over the ability altering DW weapons in "real fight scenarios"?
Seems like you're just hand-waving away the point when in fact logically the opposite is true, since the benefits provided by ability altering DW weapons will be increased by more group buffs.
So I ask again: have you actually tested them recently?
Adding the stat bonuses back would make for some interesting gear decisions depending on the fight.
hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Bumping this in light of recent discussion into the topic.
Additionally, it seems that Magsorc may be shoehorned into frontbarring the Master's destro again next patch, with the disastrous upcoming changes to Rune Cage. So ensuring that frontbar Arena weapons remain competitive is of renewed importance.
But masrter destro reach spam meta camed after stats were taken away from arena weapons and it was not an issue for anyone to spam reach like crazy.
I never said the prior Master Reach meta was a problem for Sorcs. There was no issue when the stats were removed in CWC, as this was compensated by giving the weapons an enchantment slot.
The current problem arose in Summerset, as Arena weapons give one less set bonus than all other weapons.
That was made pretty clear in the opening post.
Ah ok so suddenly master destro reach spam is bad because 2 handed weapons got buffed ? Get real 1 piece bonus is not game changer if You want to go into reach spam. Main reason why magsorcs dropped reach spam was because of Rune Cage changes and 2 handed weapons were just decent addition. Since most of sorcs runs willpower staff front bar currently You just choose between max magicka it gives vs pretty decent bonuses making reach effective and cheap spammable with stun which sounds fair. What You want is justr eating cake and having cake since You want to have bonus to max magicka like You would still have that willpower staff plus additionaly master destro bonuses. How about no.
Ok ...
But what about Maelstrom DW weapons? Or Master's DW weapons? Not worth running because they are out-DPS'd by 5/5/2 (monster set) setups. With the 1-piece bonus returned, stam DPS would get some diversity back into their lives, and be able to run 5/5/2 (using Maelstrom/Master DW on the front bar) or 5/3(Agility)/2(Monster)/2(Master/Maelstrom).
It'd also be a nice little boost to bow/bow builds.
Your issue with "destro reach spam" is an issue with exactly one of the many unique weapons in the game, and shouldn't necessarily inform design decisions for the rest of the weapons. If Destructive Reach spam is really an issue, perhaps that particular bonus should be dialed back a bit (maybe 25% cost reduction and +1500 damage).
Dont even belive for a second that adding additional stat bonus to master or maelstrom dual wield will sudenly make it rerasonable option for PvE. When it comes to PvP though well master duals are already too strong and buffing them even further would be a joke.
Just as an fyi, if you are doing trials that have lots of trash (maybe besides asylum) 2h vdsa is the absolute best weapon to have. You can literally stand in shatters in maw and spam brawler and not die...so the weapons definitely have a purpose, but definitely situationally.
Idk why You bring up master 2 hand since conversation was about dual wields but anyway even 2 hander is extremly situational and most of the time group will be better with steel tornado spam since time needed for tank to pack mobs tight for brawler to deal dmg to all of them makes it longer then just kiling mobs with spin to win. Also on consoles people cannot switch whole gear with 1 click thanks for add ons so changing gear between fights would be just another waste of time so that makes master 2 hand even more situational.
Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »Frankly, as someone who doesn't want to devote large swathes of their life to Maelstrom arena, I'm glad it isn't a hard requirement to do competitive dps anymore.
To everyone who did farm VMA hardcore, and spent days of their lives perfecting their runs, I'm sorry. But think of the health of the game as a whole. Endgame group content should not be gated behind one drop from one place, and a solo instance nonetheless.
Challenges are nice and all, and I think effort should be rewarded, but VMA should not be the gatekeeper for competitive endgame dps. PvE in MMOs is all about specialization. VMA encourages / demands damage output, survivability, and even some tanking elements. It's unrealistic that any player in any group content will need to exhibit all 3 of these roles at once. That's the point of roles. That's the point of the holy trinity of MMOs. As a dps, if more than 1 or 2 mobs are attacking you in group content, the tank isn't doing their job. If you're using more than the occasional self heal as a dps, the healer isn't doing their job.
VMA directly opposes the spirit of group content, as established by WoW and early MMOs and continued into this game. That's why it's so silly that VMA is a hard requirement to be considered "good" in group content.
Now, players have the option to NOT have to devote dozens or even hundreds of hours to VMA if they want to be trial-ready. It's a good thing for the majority, and I'm sorry that the minority feel so burned over this.
EDIT: there should have been 3 VMA variants all along. One that emphasized tanking, one for dps, and one for healing. Then I would be able to accept it being the gatekeeper for such powerful PvE weapons.
Class reps are just like our politicians. They promise mountains made of gold for us, but in the end, whenever they can they try to push their own agenda.
A build without vMA weapons can easily pull 30k+ solo DPS these days, which is enough for all PvE content up to vMoL. Anyone who intends to progress beyond this to tackle even harder content, should have no issues completing vMA.
The instance only requires you to have a decent response time and be familiar with basic NPC mechanics that you'd have encountered in the overland and basic dungeons. If you can't manage this, you shouldn't be considering content beyond the difficulty scope of vMoL.
To phrase it succinctly: if you can't obtain vMA weapons, you don't need them.