"Arena" weapons desperately need a 1pc stat bonus — a detailed explanation

  • ascan7
    ascan7
    ✭✭✭
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    This thread has nothing to do with dual wield, not vMA bow, nor Master's resto, etc. If you have an issue with those, it might be a better idea to start your own thread discussing them specifically.

    Yeah and if they give a 1 piece bonus to 2h arena weapon and that weapon only, no one will ask for the other weapon to get the same treatment?
    If the weapn sucked before summerset i don't see why now things are gonna change now and why they should buff only arena 2h and not other underperforming weapons, like dual wield asylum.
    Edited by ascan7 on May 10, 2018 3:06PM
  • mr_wazzabi
    mr_wazzabi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    But I don't agree that a singular BiS with zero diversity should be a design goal.
    Ironically, that's exactly that the 2H change was intended to alleviate. Same, to an extent, with introduction of JC.

    Numerous builds can be comparable now, especially vs how it once was. Of course there is always going to be essentially one BiS - that's what BiS is. The trick is, it's not automatically the same thing for every person's build and playstyle.

    The way I'm understanding your request is that you are currently running (your version of) BiS (which happens to include vMA weapons). You're wanting an adjustment made so that after the patch, it remains BiS.

    How does that not contradict your last statement, or am I somehow misinterpreting it?

    I'm potentially going to eat my fair share of vMA and/or Master Weapons in the process, but the option will still be there to be able to use them and pull at least as high of numbers as you can currently on live.

    You'll weight the benefits of each and choose. Again, it would be no different than if they introduced a new 2H set that outperformed, or provided a different, more useful effect than vMA does now.

    The bonus WD/SD was removed before because they were overperforming. I don't see that being reverted.

    Sets should be chosen for the unique bonuses, imo, not just the overall outcome, but that's not how they like to design.

    If I had $1 for every set I've had to shelve, decon, or vendor because ZoS opted to do some rearranging, I'd be eating well for long, long time.

    The content clear should be for the content clear and to better as a player. The weapons should be a bonus, not the requirement they've been for far too long.

    Fyi VMA 2H has never been bis. People only ran it for the wd bonus. Now that it's gone, the VMA 2H is useless in pve and also pvp as the dot is very small.
    Bosmer Stamina NB
    Altmer Magicka TEMP
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    Breton Magicka Sorc
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    Max CP
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    And what good is a unique bonus, if anyone who invests the slightest bit of thought to "weigh[t] the benefits of each and choose" comes to the clear conclusion that there is no point running an Arena 2H?

    People don't make interesting choices when presented with a clear, superior meta. They just conform to it, and why shouldn't they if it outperforms by a mile?

    Interesting & diverse builds happen when a wide selection of options are balanced within a short distance of one another, allowing people to make a subjective choice based on dynamic factions like situationality and playstyle preference.

    Once again, just because you have no problems with multiple sets fading into obscurity with every patch doesn't mean that others share your sentiment.
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  • Lord_Dexter
    Lord_Dexter
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    Wait for an year and ZOS might think about this.

    And will take another year to implement small buff!
  • ZOS_JesC
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  • josiahva
    josiahva
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    "Arena" in this case refers to the special weapons acquired from the veteran instances of Maelstrom Arena & Dragonstar Arena, and both instances of Asylum Sanctorium.

    If such weapons do not receive a 1pc stat bonus when Summerset launches (eg. 129 weapon damage, 1096 magicka), 2H weapons in this category will NOT BE VIABLE to run on the frontbar.

    This is because, in Summerset, all 2Hs (inclusive of staves) will count as 2 set pieces—meaning that any 2H build will be able to run a 5/5/2 setup (a monster set + two full 5pc sets). Therefore, should someone instead choose to run an "Arena" 2H on the frontbar, they must forgo either:
    • a full 5pc set... and replace it with 3pc Agility/Willpower + the Arena 2H
    • or their monster set (and therefore run two 5pc sets + the Arena weapon)
    In both cases, you are forgoing *TWO* bonuses:
    1. a "regular" stat bonus (the 1pc of a monster set, or the 4pc of a full set)
    2. a "special" bonus (the 2pc of a monster set, of the 5pc of a full set)
    ...but in return, all you get is a *SINGLE* bonus from the arena weapon. Furthermore, it's important to note that this bonus is highly conditional—because it only functions for a single skill, from a single weapon type. Beyond this, it doesn't boost any of the other skills on your bar, nor your stats, et cetera. It is therefore inferior to the usual "special" bonuses, and I shall subsequently refer to these as "conditional special" bonuses.

    However, these losses can be mitigated when running 3pc Agility/Willpower as part of a build. This is because these sets have a 2pc stat bonus that is 32.4% higher than a "regular" one, and a 3pc damage bonus 49.6% higher than "regular". This is with gold quality jewelry, which will be obtainable in Summerset.

    Therefore (in return for sacrificing one "regular" bonus, and one "special" bonus) we have now gained:
    • a net 82% of a "regular" bonus
    • an inferior "conditional special" bonus
    From this comparison, you can see that—even in the most favourable scenario—running a setup with a 2H Arena weapon on the frontbar is objectively worse than a 5pc set in all regards. This is patently absurd, because these weapons are obtained from some of the toughest PvE content in the game—and SHOULD perform better than run-of-the-mill 5pc sets that can be farmed from normal dungeons.

    This will adversely affect many interesting, popular frontbar choices such as:
    • vMA 2H
    • Master Destro
    • Asylum 2H
    • Asylum Destro

    The simple solution?
    Give Arena weapons a 1pc stat bonus.

    vMA weapons historically provided weapon/spell damage, while Master's weapons gave max resources (prior to the Clockwork City update). We could follow this template to preserve their historical "flavour", but adjust the values (129 damage, 1096 max resources), in order to remain consistent with the standardised values of 1-4pc bonuses, as well as for balance. Asylum weapons could, perhaps, be given critical (with a standard 1pc value of 833).

    (on a sidenote, I would support NOT giving this buff to imperfect Asylum weapons, as they are far too easy to obtain to justify having such power)

    These changes would not be imbalanced in any way. An Arena 2H setup will now have a moderate raw-stat advantage over 5/5/2 (due to the unique bonuses of Agility/Willpower), but this is compensated-for by the inferior nature of their "conditional special" bonus. Will they now outperform a generic 5pc set? By a small margin, perhaps. And they should— because they are the most prestigious weapons in the game. Large amounts of time, effort, and skill are invested to obtain them. Progression is a keystone of MMOs—work should be rewarded.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


    tl;dr
    Arena weapons need to be given a 1pc stat bonus, or their 2Hs will not remain viable as frontbar weapons in Summerset.
    (backbar Arena weapons will still be fine, though)

    I wonder why you think arena weapons should be superior if only by a small margin? There is plenty of hard PvE content in this game. I personally find vBF and vFH both harder than vMA or vDSA as an example...you are basing your whole idea on a subjective gauge of difficulty. I absolutely agree that these items do need one piece bonuses...but not ones that make them better...just ones that make them even with other choices. You dont want obvious BIS gear, you want people to have to make choices based on their playstyle.
  • IAVITNI
    IAVITNI
    ✭✭✭✭
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    @IAVITNI I reckon it would be a bad idea to buff Agi/Will. Doing so would encourage the usage of extremely potent 5/3/1/5 backbar setups, to provide an absurd amount of raw stats.

    An example build would be:
    • 3pc Spriggan's on the body
    • 1pc Domihaus on the head/shoulder
    • 3pc Agi on the jewels
    • 3pc Alchemist on the body
    ...with Spriggan's weapon(s) frontbar, and Alch weapon(s) backbar—each completing their respective sets.

    Proc alch on the backbar, swap to frontbar, and you now have the stats of two 5pc sets, a 1pc monster, and the 3pc agi.

    Making Agi/Will any stronger would send such builds over the top. And they would be very prolific because all the components are easy to acquire.

    I'd rather change the Arena weapons themselves. Buffing what needs to be buffed, with minimal impact on extrernal balance.

    Didn't think of that.

    ok. Buff Arena weapons

  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    ✭✭✭✭
    mr_wazzabi wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    But I don't agree that a singular BiS with zero diversity should be a design goal.
    Ironically, that's exactly that the 2H change was intended to alleviate. Same, to an extent, with introduction of JC.

    Numerous builds can be comparable now, especially vs how it once was. Of course there is always going to be essentially one BiS - that's what BiS is. The trick is, it's not automatically the same thing for every person's build and playstyle.

    The way I'm understanding your request is that you are currently running (your version of) BiS (which happens to include vMA weapons). You're wanting an adjustment made so that after the patch, it remains BiS.

    How does that not contradict your last statement, or am I somehow misinterpreting it?

    I'm potentially going to eat my fair share of vMA and/or Master Weapons in the process, but the option will still be there to be able to use them and pull at least as high of numbers as you can currently on live.

    You'll weight the benefits of each and choose. Again, it would be no different than if they introduced a new 2H set that outperformed, or provided a different, more useful effect than vMA does now.

    The bonus WD/SD was removed before because they were overperforming. I don't see that being reverted.

    Sets should be chosen for the unique bonuses, imo, not just the overall outcome, but that's not how they like to design.

    If I had $1 for every set I've had to shelve, decon, or vendor because ZoS opted to do some rearranging, I'd be eating well for long, long time.

    The content clear should be for the content clear and to better as a player. The weapons should be a bonus, not the requirement they've been for far too long.

    Fyi VMA 2H has never been bis. People only ran it for the wd bonus. Now that it's gone, the VMA 2H is useless in pve and also pvp as the dot is very small.
    I'm not talking Two-Hander proper, so much as weapons requiring two hands (thus two slots).
    WD/SD bonuses for vMA have been gone for a while now.

    While it may not have been BiS, it was still good enough in someone's build to warrant slotting. (Bow and staves certainly benefited from the extra bonuses, so did Master weapons from theirs).

    As such, this entire thread is built around continued use of vMA/Master weapons, so while it may not be BiS, it's still apparently worth using, or this thread wouldn't exist.

    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.
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  • Subversus
    Subversus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I’d love for the vMA weapons to get buffed lol. Not only have I spent hours upon hours of farming for that elusive sharp fire staff (that I never got prior to trait changes), but they’re also the sexiest weapons in game imo. I’d love for the option to be able to use them in pvp again, they’re all completely useless in there except for the resto.
    @Subversuss PC EU

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  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    josiahva wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    "Arena" in this case refers to the special weapons acquired from the veteran instances of Maelstrom Arena & Dragonstar Arena, and both instances of Asylum Sanctorium.

    If such weapons do not receive a 1pc stat bonus when Summerset launches (eg. 129 weapon damage, 1096 magicka), 2H weapons in this category will NOT BE VIABLE to run on the frontbar.

    This is because, in Summerset, all 2Hs (inclusive of staves) will count as 2 set pieces—meaning that any 2H build will be able to run a 5/5/2 setup (a monster set + two full 5pc sets). Therefore, should someone instead choose to run an "Arena" 2H on the frontbar, they must forgo either:
    • a full 5pc set... and replace it with 3pc Agility/Willpower + the Arena 2H
    • or their monster set (and therefore run two 5pc sets + the Arena weapon)
    In both cases, you are forgoing *TWO* bonuses:
    1. a "regular" stat bonus (the 1pc of a monster set, or the 4pc of a full set)
    2. a "special" bonus (the 2pc of a monster set, of the 5pc of a full set)
    ...but in return, all you get is a *SINGLE* bonus from the arena weapon. Furthermore, it's important to note that this bonus is highly conditional—because it only functions for a single skill, from a single weapon type. Beyond this, it doesn't boost any of the other skills on your bar, nor your stats, et cetera. It is therefore inferior to the usual "special" bonuses, and I shall subsequently refer to these as "conditional special" bonuses.

    However, these losses can be mitigated when running 3pc Agility/Willpower as part of a build. This is because these sets have a 2pc stat bonus that is 32.4% higher than a "regular" one, and a 3pc damage bonus 49.6% higher than "regular". This is with gold quality jewelry, which will be obtainable in Summerset.

    Therefore (in return for sacrificing one "regular" bonus, and one "special" bonus) we have now gained:
    • a net 82% of a "regular" bonus
    • an inferior "conditional special" bonus
    From this comparison, you can see that—even in the most favourable scenario—running a setup with a 2H Arena weapon on the frontbar is objectively worse than a 5pc set in all regards. This is patently absurd, because these weapons are obtained from some of the toughest PvE content in the game—and SHOULD perform better than run-of-the-mill 5pc sets that can be farmed from normal dungeons.

    This will adversely affect many interesting, popular frontbar choices such as:
    • vMA 2H
    • Master Destro
    • Asylum 2H
    • Asylum Destro

    The simple solution?
    Give Arena weapons a 1pc stat bonus.

    vMA weapons historically provided weapon/spell damage, while Master's weapons gave max resources (prior to the Clockwork City update). We could follow this template to preserve their historical "flavour", but adjust the values (129 damage, 1096 max resources), in order to remain consistent with the standardised values of 1-4pc bonuses, as well as for balance. Asylum weapons could, perhaps, be given critical (with a standard 1pc value of 833).

    (on a sidenote, I would support NOT giving this buff to imperfect Asylum weapons, as they are far too easy to obtain to justify having such power)

    These changes would not be imbalanced in any way. An Arena 2H setup will now have a moderate raw-stat advantage over 5/5/2 (due to the unique bonuses of Agility/Willpower), but this is compensated-for by the inferior nature of their "conditional special" bonus. Will they now outperform a generic 5pc set? By a small margin, perhaps. And they should— because they are the most prestigious weapons in the game. Large amounts of time, effort, and skill are invested to obtain them. Progression is a keystone of MMOs—work should be rewarded.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


    tl;dr
    Arena weapons need to be given a 1pc stat bonus, or their 2Hs will not remain viable as frontbar weapons in Summerset.
    (backbar Arena weapons will still be fine, though)

    I wonder why you think arena weapons should be superior if only by a small margin? There is plenty of hard PvE content in this game. I personally find vBF and vFH both harder than vMA or vDSA as an example...you are basing your whole idea on a subjective gauge of difficulty. I absolutely agree that these items do need one piece bonuses...but not ones that make them better...just ones that make them even with other choices. You dont want obvious BIS gear, you want people to have to make choices based on their playstyle.

    ok, your fine with a weapon you can get with a trip to the vendor for 5k being as strong as vma weapons? LOL
    Zebendal- Stam Sorc, PC NA
  • mr_wazzabi
    mr_wazzabi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    mr_wazzabi wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    But I don't agree that a singular BiS with zero diversity should be a design goal.
    Ironically, that's exactly that the 2H change was intended to alleviate. Same, to an extent, with introduction of JC.

    Numerous builds can be comparable now, especially vs how it once was. Of course there is always going to be essentially one BiS - that's what BiS is. The trick is, it's not automatically the same thing for every person's build and playstyle.

    The way I'm understanding your request is that you are currently running (your version of) BiS (which happens to include vMA weapons). You're wanting an adjustment made so that after the patch, it remains BiS.

    How does that not contradict your last statement, or am I somehow misinterpreting it?

    I'm potentially going to eat my fair share of vMA and/or Master Weapons in the process, but the option will still be there to be able to use them and pull at least as high of numbers as you can currently on live.

    You'll weight the benefits of each and choose. Again, it would be no different than if they introduced a new 2H set that outperformed, or provided a different, more useful effect than vMA does now.

    The bonus WD/SD was removed before because they were overperforming. I don't see that being reverted.

    Sets should be chosen for the unique bonuses, imo, not just the overall outcome, but that's not how they like to design.

    If I had $1 for every set I've had to shelve, decon, or vendor because ZoS opted to do some rearranging, I'd be eating well for long, long time.

    The content clear should be for the content clear and to better as a player. The weapons should be a bonus, not the requirement they've been for far too long.

    Fyi VMA 2H has never been bis. People only ran it for the wd bonus. Now that it's gone, the VMA 2H is useless in pve and also pvp as the dot is very small.
    I'm not talking Two-Hander proper, so much as weapons requiring two hands (thus two slots).
    WD/SD bonuses for vMA have been gone for a while now.

    While it may not have been BiS, it was still good enough in someone's build to warrant slotting. (Bow and staves certainly benefited from the extra bonuses, so did Master weapons from theirs).

    As such, this entire thread is built around continued use of vMA/Master weapons, so while it may not be BiS, it's still apparently worth using, or this thread wouldn't exist.

    The vma 2h WAS worth using when it gave the wd bonus. Now it is NOT worth using.
    Bosmer Stamina NB
    Altmer Magicka TEMP
    Dunmer DK both stam/mag (depends what I feel like)
    Altmer Magicka NB
    Breton Magicka Sorc
    Redguard Stam Sorc
    Max CP
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    As such, this entire thread is built around continued use of vMA/Master weapons, so while it may not be BiS, it's still apparently worth using, or this thread wouldn't exist.

    This thread is built on the well-substantiated premise that Arena 2Hs will ceased to be used in the coming patch if they are not addressed.

    I already have two separate sets of builds theorycrafted for next patch. One for the contingency that Arena 2Hs don't get buffed, and one on the off chance that they do get buffed. Both are BiS, so my performance won't be affected either way. I have no personal skin in the game, contrary to what you keep implying.

    I'd simply prefer a game where various build options are competitive with one another to offer actual interesting choices to players. More diversity, less dead sets.

    And please stop pushing the notion that people will use vMA 2H because it's oh-so-unique. The Ashen Grip set is unique. Seen anyone using it lately?
    Edited by TheYKcid on May 11, 2018 8:08PM
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • _Ahala_
    _Ahala_
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ashes grip is useful... for master writs or to rp as an Magdk reject :p
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    vMA 2Hs will also be useful for RPing as a Dwarven Centurion next patch, if ZOS doesn't do anything, lol.
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    vMA 2Hs will also be useful for RPing as a Dwarven Centurion next patch, if ZOS doesn't do anything, lol.

    Bis xD
    Zebendal- Stam Sorc, PC NA
  • Dojohoda
    Dojohoda
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just had an idea. It might be kinda nice/interesting if the special weapons had an open extra bonus. This extra bonus repeated the 4th armor buff that is slotted on the chest.

    For example, if you are wearing Shacklebreaker, the weapon would have the extra bonus of "129 Magicka Recovery and Stamina Recovery". Of course for dual wield and sword and shield, this would not be doubled, but would be the same value gained as the 2-h weapons.

    Kat Ko, magblade
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dojohoda wrote: »
    Just had an idea. It might be kinda nice/interesting if the special weapons had an open extra bonus. This extra bonus repeated the 4th armor buff that is slotted on the chest.

    For example, if you are wearing Shacklebreaker, the weapon would have the extra bonus of "129 Magicka Recovery and Stamina Recovery". Of course for dual wield and sword and shield, this would not be doubled, but would be the same value gained as the 2-h weapons.

    Interesting idea, though I doubt it'd be very viable. You're making a direct substitution between the 5th pc set bonus and the Arena special bonus, and in most cases the latter is pretty inferior.

    Comparing Shackle to vMA 2H, for example—you'd be sacrificing 2k max stam AND mag, for a tiny DoT thay only applies to your crit charge. That's huge.

    The only way an Arena 2H would pull competitive numbers—despite its inferior "special" bonus—would be to have a slight raw stat advantage, from a combination of agi/will jewelry + my suggested 1pc stat bonus.
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • mr_wazzabi
    mr_wazzabi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    If it goes unchanged there will be next to no reason to run vAS except for achievements and scores. The hardest to get weapons shouldnt be out performed by 6 trait crafted ones. I'm glad they buffed staves with the 2 piece, its awesome that a lot of builds will be viable without an asylum destro, but I think it should slightly outperform, not fall dramaticly behind.

    Yup. Similarly, Assylum 2H has an awesome effect, but without a stat bonus it will be outclassed by Spriggans, Hundings and Leviathan greatswords.
    Bosmer Stamina NB
    Altmer Magicka TEMP
    Dunmer DK both stam/mag (depends what I feel like)
    Altmer Magicka NB
    Breton Magicka Sorc
    Redguard Stam Sorc
    Max CP
  • Murador178
    Murador178
    ✭✭✭
    Subversus wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    josiahva wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    "Arena" in this case refers to the special weapons acquired from the veteran instances of Maelstrom Arena & Dragonstar Arena, and both instances of Asylum Sanctorium.

    If such weapons do not receive a 1pc stat bonus when Summerset launches (eg. 129 weapon damage, 1096 magicka), 2H weapons in this category will NOT BE VIABLE to run on the frontbar.

    This is because, in Summerset, all 2Hs (inclusive of staves) will count as 2 set pieces—meaning that any 2H build will be able to run a 5/5/2 setup (a monster set + two full 5pc sets). Therefore, should someone instead choose to run an "Arena" 2H on the frontbar, they must forgo either:
    • a full 5pc set... and replace it with 3pc Agility/Willpower + the Arena 2H
    • or their monster set (and therefore run two 5pc sets + the Arena weapon)
    In both cases, you are forgoing *TWO* bonuses:
    1. a "regular" stat bonus (the 1pc of a monster set, or the 4pc of a full set)
    2. a "special" bonus (the 2pc of a monster set, of the 5pc of a full set)
    ...but in return, all you get is a *SINGLE* bonus from the arena weapon. Furthermore, it's important to note that this bonus is highly conditional—because it only functions for a single skill, from a single weapon type. Beyond this, it doesn't boost any of the other skills on your bar, nor your stats, et cetera. It is therefore inferior to the usual "special" bonuses, and I shall subsequently refer to these as "conditional special" bonuses.

    However, these losses can be mitigated when running 3pc Agility/Willpower as part of a build. This is because these sets have a 2pc stat bonus that is 32.4% higher than a "regular" one, and a 3pc damage bonus 49.6% higher than "regular". This is with gold quality jewelry, which will be obtainable in Summerset.

    Therefore (in return for sacrificing one "regular" bonus, and one "special" bonus) we have now gained:
    • a net 82% of a "regular" bonus
    • an inferior "conditional special" bonus
    From this comparison, you can see that—even in the most favourable scenario—running a setup with a 2H Arena weapon on the frontbar is objectively worse than a 5pc set in all regards. This is patently absurd, because these weapons are obtained from some of the toughest PvE content in the game—and SHOULD perform better than run-of-the-mill 5pc sets that can be farmed from normal dungeons.

    This will adversely affect many interesting, popular frontbar choices such as:
    • vMA 2H
    • Master Destro
    • Asylum 2H
    • Asylum Destro

    The simple solution?
    Give Arena weapons a 1pc stat bonus.

    vMA weapons historically provided weapon/spell damage, while Master's weapons gave max resources (prior to the Clockwork City update). We could follow this template to preserve their historical "flavour", but adjust the values (129 damage, 1096 max resources), in order to remain consistent with the standardised values of 1-4pc bonuses, as well as for balance. Asylum weapons could, perhaps, be given critical (with a standard 1pc value of 833).

    (on a sidenote, I would support NOT giving this buff to imperfect Asylum weapons, as they are far too easy to obtain to justify having such power)

    These changes would not be imbalanced in any way. An Arena 2H setup will now have a moderate raw-stat advantage over 5/5/2 (due to the unique bonuses of Agility/Willpower), but this is compensated-for by the inferior nature of their "conditional special" bonus. Will they now outperform a generic 5pc set? By a small margin, perhaps. And they should— because they are the most prestigious weapons in the game. Large amounts of time, effort, and skill are invested to obtain them. Progression is a keystone of MMOs—work should be rewarded.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


    tl;dr
    Arena weapons need to be given a 1pc stat bonus, or their 2Hs will not remain viable as frontbar weapons in Summerset.
    (backbar Arena weapons will still be fine, though)

    I wonder why you think arena weapons should be superior if only by a small margin? There is plenty of hard PvE content in this game. I personally find vBF and vFH both harder than vMA or vDSA as an example...you are basing your whole idea on a subjective gauge of difficulty. I absolutely agree that these items do need one piece bonuses...but not ones that make them better...just ones that make them even with other choices. You dont want obvious BIS gear, you want people to have to make choices based on their playstyle.

    ok, your fine with a weapon you can get with a trip to the vendor for 5k being as strong as vma weapons? LOL

    Obviously he is, because he doesn’t have vMA weapons and doesn’t understand the pain some of us went through after grinding for over a year and hundreds upon hundreds of runs for a drop (that never dropped mind you).

    So because u needed to grind medium difficulty content for a year means they must be best in slot? They should be viable and so get a small buff, but making them best in slot is a really bad idea imo until they add a token system to the game.

    PS: I got most vMA/vDSA weapons
  • RoyJade
    RoyJade
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Murador178 wrote: »
    So because u needed to grind medium difficulty content for a year means they must be best in slot? They should be viable and so get a small buff, but making them best in slot is a really bad idea imo until they add a token system to the game.

    PS: I got most vMA/vDSA weapons

    Depend of what we call "best in slot". If the dps gain is marginal (say 1-2%) but still here, it's good.
    Of course, they shouldn't be absolute mandatory and rend every other choice obsolete.
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just to clarify, buffing Arena weapons to the extent I suggested won't make them universally BiS. Not by a long shot!

    As an example, compared to 3pc Agility + vMA 2H:
    • 5pc Bone Pirate will give superior raw stats, with the drawback of being a poor single-bar set
    • 5pc 7th/Ravager will give even better raw stats, with the drawback of having a proc requirement
    • 5pc Viper will give more DoT pressure, with the drawback of providing no stats on the 5th bonus

    These are just a few examples of popular sets that will still be competitive with Arena weapons, post-buff.

    They all excel in the various ways listed, with their own individual drawbacks. I envision a 3pc Agi/Will + Arena 2H setup as a sort of "middle ground"—above average raw stats, with a below average proc bonus.

    Choosing to use such a setup would be a matter of playstyle and preference, not because of overwhelming power.
    Edited by TheYKcid on May 13, 2018 12:33PM
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd prefer that their unique effects got buffed.

    Rather than being a dump stat weapon, they're designed for a specific purpose/playstyle.
  • RoyJade
    RoyJade
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Avran_Sylt wrote: »
    I'd prefer that their unique effects got buffed.

    Rather than being a dump stat weapon, they're designed for a specific purpose/playstyle.

    Buffing them in order to make them strong enough to compete with classic setup without making them too powerful in either pve or pvp is difficult.
    But if ZOS can manage to do that, it'ld be far better indeed.
  • Minalan
    Minalan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Drakkdjinn wrote: »
    josiahva wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    "Arena" in this case refers to the special weapons acquired from the veteran instances of Maelstrom Arena & Dragonstar Arena, and both instances of Asylum Sanctorium.

    If such weapons do not receive a 1pc stat bonus when Summerset launches (eg. 129 weapon damage, 1096 magicka), 2H weapons in this category will NOT BE VIABLE to run on the frontbar.

    This is because, in Summerset, all 2Hs (inclusive of staves) will count as 2 set pieces—meaning that any 2H build will be able to run a 5/5/2 setup (a monster set + two full 5pc sets). Therefore, should someone instead choose to run an "Arena" 2H on the frontbar, they must forgo either:
    • a full 5pc set... and replace it with 3pc Agility/Willpower + the Arena 2H
    • or their monster set (and therefore run two 5pc sets + the Arena weapon)
    In both cases, you are forgoing *TWO* bonuses:
    1. a "regular" stat bonus (the 1pc of a monster set, or the 4pc of a full set)
    2. a "special" bonus (the 2pc of a monster set, of the 5pc of a full set)
    ...but in return, all you get is a *SINGLE* bonus from the arena weapon. Furthermore, it's important to note that this bonus is highly conditional—because it only functions for a single skill, from a single weapon type. Beyond this, it doesn't boost any of the other skills on your bar, nor your stats, et cetera. It is therefore inferior to the usual "special" bonuses, and I shall subsequently refer to these as "conditional special" bonuses.

    However, these losses can be mitigated when running 3pc Agility/Willpower as part of a build. This is because these sets have a 2pc stat bonus that is 32.4% higher than a "regular" one, and a 3pc damage bonus 49.6% higher than "regular". This is with gold quality jewelry, which will be obtainable in Summerset.

    Therefore (in return for sacrificing one "regular" bonus, and one "special" bonus) we have now gained:
    • a net 82% of a "regular" bonus
    • an inferior "conditional special" bonus
    From this comparison, you can see that—even in the most favourable scenario—running a setup with a 2H Arena weapon on the frontbar is objectively worse than a 5pc set in all regards. This is patently absurd, because these weapons are obtained from some of the toughest PvE content in the game—and SHOULD perform better than run-of-the-mill 5pc sets that can be farmed from normal dungeons.

    This will adversely affect many interesting, popular frontbar choices such as:
    • vMA 2H
    • Master Destro
    • Asylum 2H
    • Asylum Destro

    The simple solution?
    Give Arena weapons a 1pc stat bonus.

    vMA weapons historically provided weapon/spell damage, while Master's weapons gave max resources (prior to the Clockwork City update). We could follow this template to preserve their historical "flavour", but adjust the values (129 damage, 1096 max resources), in order to remain consistent with the standardised values of 1-4pc bonuses, as well as for balance. Asylum weapons could, perhaps, be given critical (with a standard 1pc value of 833).

    (on a sidenote, I would support NOT giving this buff to imperfect Asylum weapons, as they are far too easy to obtain to justify having such power)

    These changes would not be imbalanced in any way. An Arena 2H setup will now have a moderate raw-stat advantage over 5/5/2 (due to the unique bonuses of Agility/Willpower), but this is compensated-for by the inferior nature of their "conditional special" bonus. Will they now outperform a generic 5pc set? By a small margin, perhaps. And they should— because they are the most prestigious weapons in the game. Large amounts of time, effort, and skill are invested to obtain them. Progression is a keystone of MMOs—work should be rewarded.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


    tl;dr
    Arena weapons need to be given a 1pc stat bonus, or their 2Hs will not remain viable as frontbar weapons in Summerset.
    (backbar Arena weapons will still be fine, though)

    I wonder why you think arena weapons should be superior if only by a small margin? There is plenty of hard PvE content in this game. I personally find vBF and vFH both harder than vMA or vDSA as an example...you are basing your whole idea on a subjective gauge of difficulty. I absolutely agree that these items do need one piece bonuses...but not ones that make them better...just ones that make them even with other choices. You dont want obvious BIS gear, you want people to have to make choices based on their playstyle.

    In vMA you row your own boat & there is only one gear drop, in dungeon content, which is significantly shorter in breadth/extent in the first place, you can be carried & gear drops are more frequent and can be shared. Expecting the incentives for each to reflect that extra difficulty/time investment of vMA is not unreasonable by any measure.

    Except... that nowadays I can build for VMA and practically sleepwalk through it with light and heavy attacks.

    Where as in VDSA it’s a wipe if you don’t have a good tank, or your DPS doesn’t carry their weight.

    You can’t really compare the difficulty of the content, it’s hard enough just finding a group for Dragonstar that won’t be a complete waste of two or three hours time.
  • Murador178
    Murador178
    ✭✭✭
    Minalan wrote: »
    Drakkdjinn wrote: »
    josiahva wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    "Arena" in this case refers to the special weapons acquired from the veteran instances of Maelstrom Arena & Dragonstar Arena, and both instances of Asylum Sanctorium.

    If such weapons do not receive a 1pc stat bonus when Summerset launches (eg. 129 weapon damage, 1096 magicka), 2H weapons in this category will NOT BE VIABLE to run on the frontbar.

    This is because, in Summerset, all 2Hs (inclusive of staves) will count as 2 set pieces—meaning that any 2H build will be able to run a 5/5/2 setup (a monster set + two full 5pc sets). Therefore, should someone instead choose to run an "Arena" 2H on the frontbar, they must forgo either:
    • a full 5pc set... and replace it with 3pc Agility/Willpower + the Arena 2H
    • or their monster set (and therefore run two 5pc sets + the Arena weapon)
    In both cases, you are forgoing *TWO* bonuses:
    1. a "regular" stat bonus (the 1pc of a monster set, or the 4pc of a full set)
    2. a "special" bonus (the 2pc of a monster set, of the 5pc of a full set)
    ...but in return, all you get is a *SINGLE* bonus from the arena weapon. Furthermore, it's important to note that this bonus is highly conditional—because it only functions for a single skill, from a single weapon type. Beyond this, it doesn't boost any of the other skills on your bar, nor your stats, et cetera. It is therefore inferior to the usual "special" bonuses, and I shall subsequently refer to these as "conditional special" bonuses.

    However, these losses can be mitigated when running 3pc Agility/Willpower as part of a build. This is because these sets have a 2pc stat bonus that is 32.4% higher than a "regular" one, and a 3pc damage bonus 49.6% higher than "regular". This is with gold quality jewelry, which will be obtainable in Summerset.

    Therefore (in return for sacrificing one "regular" bonus, and one "special" bonus) we have now gained:
    • a net 82% of a "regular" bonus
    • an inferior "conditional special" bonus
    From this comparison, you can see that—even in the most favourable scenario—running a setup with a 2H Arena weapon on the frontbar is objectively worse than a 5pc set in all regards. This is patently absurd, because these weapons are obtained from some of the toughest PvE content in the game—and SHOULD perform better than run-of-the-mill 5pc sets that can be farmed from normal dungeons.

    This will adversely affect many interesting, popular frontbar choices such as:
    • vMA 2H
    • Master Destro
    • Asylum 2H
    • Asylum Destro

    The simple solution?
    Give Arena weapons a 1pc stat bonus.

    vMA weapons historically provided weapon/spell damage, while Master's weapons gave max resources (prior to the Clockwork City update). We could follow this template to preserve their historical "flavour", but adjust the values (129 damage, 1096 max resources), in order to remain consistent with the standardised values of 1-4pc bonuses, as well as for balance. Asylum weapons could, perhaps, be given critical (with a standard 1pc value of 833).

    (on a sidenote, I would support NOT giving this buff to imperfect Asylum weapons, as they are far too easy to obtain to justify having such power)

    These changes would not be imbalanced in any way. An Arena 2H setup will now have a moderate raw-stat advantage over 5/5/2 (due to the unique bonuses of Agility/Willpower), but this is compensated-for by the inferior nature of their "conditional special" bonus. Will they now outperform a generic 5pc set? By a small margin, perhaps. And they should— because they are the most prestigious weapons in the game. Large amounts of time, effort, and skill are invested to obtain them. Progression is a keystone of MMOs—work should be rewarded.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


    tl;dr
    Arena weapons need to be given a 1pc stat bonus, or their 2Hs will not remain viable as frontbar weapons in Summerset.
    (backbar Arena weapons will still be fine, though)

    I wonder why you think arena weapons should be superior if only by a small margin? There is plenty of hard PvE content in this game. I personally find vBF and vFH both harder than vMA or vDSA as an example...you are basing your whole idea on a subjective gauge of difficulty. I absolutely agree that these items do need one piece bonuses...but not ones that make them better...just ones that make them even with other choices. You dont want obvious BIS gear, you want people to have to make choices based on their playstyle.

    In vMA you row your own boat & there is only one gear drop, in dungeon content, which is significantly shorter in breadth/extent in the first place, you can be carried & gear drops are more frequent and can be shared. Expecting the incentives for each to reflect that extra difficulty/time investment of vMA is not unreasonable by any measure.

    Except... that nowadays I can build for VMA and practically sleepwalk through it with light and heavy attacks.

    Where as in VDSA it’s a wipe if you don’t have a good tank, or your DPS doesn’t carry their weight.

    You can’t really compare the difficulty of the content, it’s hard enough just finding a group for Dragonstar that won’t be a complete waste of two or three hours time.

    with the light attack buffs it shouldnt even be that slow :joy:
  • VilniusNastavnik
    VilniusNastavnik
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Subversus wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    josiahva wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    "Arena" in this case refers to the special weapons acquired from the veteran instances of Maelstrom Arena & Dragonstar Arena, and both instances of Asylum Sanctorium.

    If such weapons do not receive a 1pc stat bonus when Summerset launches (eg. 129 weapon damage, 1096 magicka), 2H weapons in this category will NOT BE VIABLE to run on the frontbar.

    This is because, in Summerset, all 2Hs (inclusive of staves) will count as 2 set pieces—meaning that any 2H build will be able to run a 5/5/2 setup (a monster set + two full 5pc sets). Therefore, should someone instead choose to run an "Arena" 2H on the frontbar, they must forgo either:
    • a full 5pc set... and replace it with 3pc Agility/Willpower + the Arena 2H
    • or their monster set (and therefore run two 5pc sets + the Arena weapon)
    In both cases, you are forgoing *TWO* bonuses:
    1. a "regular" stat bonus (the 1pc of a monster set, or the 4pc of a full set)
    2. a "special" bonus (the 2pc of a monster set, of the 5pc of a full set)
    ...but in return, all you get is a *SINGLE* bonus from the arena weapon. Furthermore, it's important to note that this bonus is highly conditional—because it only functions for a single skill, from a single weapon type. Beyond this, it doesn't boost any of the other skills on your bar, nor your stats, et cetera. It is therefore inferior to the usual "special" bonuses, and I shall subsequently refer to these as "conditional special" bonuses.

    However, these losses can be mitigated when running 3pc Agility/Willpower as part of a build. This is because these sets have a 2pc stat bonus that is 32.4% higher than a "regular" one, and a 3pc damage bonus 49.6% higher than "regular". This is with gold quality jewelry, which will be obtainable in Summerset.

    Therefore (in return for sacrificing one "regular" bonus, and one "special" bonus) we have now gained:
    • a net 82% of a "regular" bonus
    • an inferior "conditional special" bonus
    From this comparison, you can see that—even in the most favourable scenario—running a setup with a 2H Arena weapon on the frontbar is objectively worse than a 5pc set in all regards. This is patently absurd, because these weapons are obtained from some of the toughest PvE content in the game—and SHOULD perform better than run-of-the-mill 5pc sets that can be farmed from normal dungeons.

    This will adversely affect many interesting, popular frontbar choices such as:
    • vMA 2H
    • Master Destro
    • Asylum 2H
    • Asylum Destro

    The simple solution?
    Give Arena weapons a 1pc stat bonus.

    vMA weapons historically provided weapon/spell damage, while Master's weapons gave max resources (prior to the Clockwork City update). We could follow this template to preserve their historical "flavour", but adjust the values (129 damage, 1096 max resources), in order to remain consistent with the standardised values of 1-4pc bonuses, as well as for balance. Asylum weapons could, perhaps, be given critical (with a standard 1pc value of 833).

    (on a sidenote, I would support NOT giving this buff to imperfect Asylum weapons, as they are far too easy to obtain to justify having such power)

    These changes would not be imbalanced in any way. An Arena 2H setup will now have a moderate raw-stat advantage over 5/5/2 (due to the unique bonuses of Agility/Willpower), but this is compensated-for by the inferior nature of their "conditional special" bonus. Will they now outperform a generic 5pc set? By a small margin, perhaps. And they should— because they are the most prestigious weapons in the game. Large amounts of time, effort, and skill are invested to obtain them. Progression is a keystone of MMOs—work should be rewarded.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


    tl;dr
    Arena weapons need to be given a 1pc stat bonus, or their 2Hs will not remain viable as frontbar weapons in Summerset.
    (backbar Arena weapons will still be fine, though)

    I wonder why you think arena weapons should be superior if only by a small margin? There is plenty of hard PvE content in this game. I personally find vBF and vFH both harder than vMA or vDSA as an example...you are basing your whole idea on a subjective gauge of difficulty. I absolutely agree that these items do need one piece bonuses...but not ones that make them better...just ones that make them even with other choices. You dont want obvious BIS gear, you want people to have to make choices based on their playstyle.

    ok, your fine with a weapon you can get with a trip to the vendor for 5k being as strong as vma weapons? LOL

    Obviously he is, because he doesn’t have vMA weapons and doesn’t understand the pain some of us went through after grinding for over a year and hundreds upon hundreds of runs for a drop (that never dropped mind you).

    We are. We just cannot be bothered grinding for months for a 1-2% dps boost.

    Especially since VMA is very heavily ping dependant. Making non Arena weapons more in line with Arena weapons will enable those of us who not only have to fight mechanics, but also bad ping be more competitive.
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    Picture of my Active Toons.

    Location: Australia - Wollongong, NSW - Sydney.
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I play from Southeast Asia with a baseline ping from 270-310, with spikes going much higher than that.

    Sure I've died a couple times to a poison plant AoE that my client showed me clearly outside-of, but it was a simple matter of learning to respond slightly sooner to the mechanic, and moving an extra distance away.

    There are no mechanics in these dungeons that mandate a response within the window of 0.3-0.4 seconds.
    PC/NA__Daggerfall Covenant__Vivec
    Karmic-Chameleon — Argonian Stamblade
    Kaladin Chalhoub — Redguard Stamblade
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    .
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