Imbue weapons may need a nerf.

Noobslayer3255

@Avran_Sylt

but you dont need to be cloaked for it to be effective.

this was on my stamblade with a normal, 4.8k weapon damage build (including master bow and weapon enchant which are up all the time on my stamblade)


just look at the time stamps, it's insane! 46k damage in .25 seconds, all i did was pre cast imbue, swing a sword and weave surprise attack. no need to get the cc from cloak or any CC at all, all of this lands at once. If they survive it, a fear + incap will all but guarantee a kill. It's just crazy burst.

I love playing medium stamblade just bursting people down, hell I used to run viper, widowmaker, and selene, but regardless of how fun it is, in my opinion, it's way too strong.

Minalan

How is the damage of an imbued LA affected by the elegance set? I’m at work all day and can’t test...

Weave that empowered imbued light attack with force pulse or something and it’s going to hit like a truck.

Noobslayer3255

Minalan wrote: »

How is the damage of an imbued LA affected by the elegance set? I’m at work all day and can’t test...

Weave that empowered imbued light attack with force pulse or something and it’s going to hit like a truck.

Imbued doesn't actually buff the light attack itself, it is a separate damage proc that procs with light attacks.

Minalan

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

How is the damage of an imbued LA affected by the elegance set? I’m at work all day and can’t test...

Weave that empowered imbued light attack with force pulse or something and it’s going to hit like a truck.

Imbued doesn't actually buff the light attack itself, it is a separate damage proc that procs with light attacks.

That means it’ll proc off overload light attacks too

Avran_Sylt

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt

but you dont need to be cloaked for it to be effective.

this was on my stamblade with a normal, 4.8k weapon damage build (including master bow and weapon enchant which are up all the time on my stamblade)


just look at the time stamps, it's insane! 46k damage in .25 seconds, all i did was pre cast imbue, swing a sword and weave surprise attack. no need to get the cc from cloak or any CC at all, all of this lands at once. If they survive it, a fear + incap will all but guarantee a kill. It's just crazy burst.

I love playing medium stamblade just bursting people down, hell I used to run viper, widowmaker, and selene, but regardless of how fun it is, in my opinion, it's way too strong.

And if that was all able to be done without any kind of tell, then I'd have an issue with it. But that combo requires you to be visible, and it also makes your weapons glow for a second.

Yes, against new players, this combo is going to be devastating. I can only hope that others take my own approach when eyeing newbs in that you generally leave them alone from your bursting. But this has counterplay in that it will fizzle out in addition to the visible tells. (It certainly needs to add a visible tell to overload if it doesn't already)

I'm not fond of mechanics that are harsh on new players, but at the same time I'm not fond of new mechanics being watered down to add accessibility. I really don't know what to do in this regard.

I'd just let it hit live, and see what the community's response to it is.

technohic

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt

but you dont need to be cloaked for it to be effective.

this was on my stamblade with a normal, 4.8k weapon damage build (including master bow and weapon enchant which are up all the time on my stamblade)


just look at the time stamps, it's insane! 46k damage in .25 seconds, all i did was pre cast imbue, swing a sword and weave surprise attack. no need to get the cc from cloak or any CC at all, all of this lands at once. If they survive it, a fear + incap will all but guarantee a kill. It's just crazy burst.

I love playing medium stamblade just bursting people down, hell I used to run viper, widowmaker, and selene, but regardless of how fun it is, in my opinion, it's way too strong.

And if that was all able to be done without any kind of tell, then I'd have an issue with it. But that combo requires you to be visible, and it also makes your weapons glow for a second.

Yes, against new players, this combo is going to be devastating. I can only hope that others take my own approach when eyeing newbs in that you generally leave them alone from your bursting. But this has counterplay in that it will fizzle out in addition to the visible tells. (It certainly needs to add a visible tell to overload if it doesn't already)

I'm not fond of mechanics that are harsh on new players, but at the same time I'm not fond of new mechanics being watered down to add accessibility. I really don't know what to do in this regard.

I'd just let it hit live, and see what the community's response to it is.

You can only dodge so much. Tell or not, this will land more times than not. If its broken, the last thing we want is it to hit live because then its there for at least 3 months.

Avran_Sylt

@technohic

But what would you suggest?

In a longer battle, the DPS added by this skill is generally the same as other comparable skills. This just adjusts where the damage intervals fall.

You can still heal and dodge and shield, except that that this will get a player into execute range with less warning. (if you discount the tell)

MisterBigglesworth

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt


just look at the time stamps, it's insane! 46k damage in .25 seconds

Yeah, but on a 10 minute Trial boss fight, it makes almost no difference, so who cares? derp.

s7732425ub17_ESO

How about:
Imbue your light attacks for the next three seconds. Each light attack applies an imbue curse stack on the target. On two stacks, deal an additional xxxx damage.

Would get rid of the insta-burst damage, but would still be great burst damage. Would add a counter in PVP because you would need to land 2 light attacks in 3 seconds (this can be hard to do if the opponent counters). Would make it so it won't be used as a PVE spammable.

technohic

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@technohic

But what would you suggest?

In a longer battle, the DPS added by this skill is generally the same as other comparable skills. This just adjusts where the damage intervals fall.

You can still heal and dodge and shield, except that that this will get a player into execute range with less warning. (if you discount the tell)

If its really balanced and comparable to other abilities, then nothing. Only if its something truly broken.

Seems the issue is that they figured it to be the spammable mixed with a weave without thinking about it being in a combo as a delayed damage to make for burst. If its meant to be a generic spammable, its too bad they couldn't just Call it double tap or something like that. Embrace weaving and specifically say "You bend time to weave and extra attack with your weapon for X damage" but that would require it to determine ranged based on the weapon you have equipped.

NBrookus

Minalan wrote: »

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

How is the damage of an imbued LA affected by the elegance set? I’m at work all day and can’t test...

Weave that empowered imbued light attack with force pulse or something and it’s going to hit like a truck.

Imbued doesn't actually buff the light attack itself, it is a separate damage proc that procs with light attacks.

That means it’ll proc off overload light attacks too

Go back a page; I posted some damage (on a dummy) from a non-optimized setup with empower + imbue + overload. If everything crits and you also get a spell orb, 82.5k damage. And I bet you could get 90k without a cripplingly bad pvp build; 100k+ for a one trick pony.

WreckfulAbandon

I haven't tested it yet so can't say if it's overtuned or not... but you can add in an imbue weapon proc to standard burst combos now. TTK will likely decrease in PvP. Even if only a few people realize its potential they will likely get enough kills to generate a ton of sodium for the forums.

It might be tricky to incorporate it into some classes burst combos but I'm sure ppl will find a way. NB's however... they will slay massive numbers of potatoes (even more than now)

But sure, it doesn't seem overtuned if you're just fighting against AI

MLGProPlayer

ITT PvPers try to ruin PvE skill diversity.

They really need to balance the two modes separately.

Toc de Malsvi

I dueled a bunch of people with and without this, it felt very strong in duels. It lines up well with Snipe because you can cast snipe>light attack>cast CW and it will proc on the light attack that is in the air. My burst is lower with this combo than Snipe>Acid Spray with Asylum, however it gave very good steady pressure that wore people down.

For Mag Sorc's with overload its disgustingly deadly if they land it. I dueled several where I won 60-70% of the fights, but many times when I lost I was dead in 1 second because of an overload+Imbue Weapons+Fury. It obviously adds to burst which is king in PVP, but its really hard to reduce the damage without killing the skill.

Joy_Division

Rjizzle09 wrote: »

Naw here we go again with something being strong in pvp so it deserves a nerf. I'm so sick if that. Its a really good ability fir pve users but people want it nerfed now because of burst potential? Youre worried about imbue weapons killing you? lol My guy there are way worse things that can one shot you these days with all the combos that came to light because of jewelry crafting. Im so dome with the whole nerf something in pve cause its too strong in pvp. Weve had a whole slew of nerfs because of that so enough is enough. Leave pve out of this

It's not too strong for PvP. It's just the typical PTS cycle of some PVPers making a mountain out of molehill because they either don;t understand how the ability works, or using a cheese parse on a target dummy to exaggerate a point.

NBrookus

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

For Mag Sorc's with overload its disgustingly deadly if they land it. I dueled several where I won 60-70% of the fights, but many times when I lost I was dead in 1 second because of an overload+Imbue Weapons+Fury. It obviously adds to burst which is king in PVP, but its really hard to reduce the damage without killing the skill.

On the other hand, overload makes a sound, has a bright animation and travels slow, so if you reflect one of these overloads that takes 3 GCD to fully buff not counting the clunky animation to drop into OL, the sorc will likely one shot themselves or at least remove any shred of shield for you themselves, or if they dodge it just on the timing with their shields needing to be refreshed.

If it becomes popular outside of sorc ganking, having a reflect on your bar may be mandatory.

MehrunesFlagon

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

It's nearly broken m. It adds like 8k dmg to your light attacks..Maybe no pve..but pvp where burst matters, this is a bit insane

*** pvp

Waffennacht

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

It's nearly broken m. It adds like 8k dmg to your light attacks..Maybe no pve..but pvp where burst matters, this is a bit insane

*** pvp

Sparr0w

Think of it this way, you do a LA > Force pulse/Surprise attack/whatever you get the same damage in the same time frame you can use Imbue > LA

Only difference (apart from it probably costing a little less?) is that the damage from the first scenario hits in 2 parts (over the same time frame) where the second hits in one part (over the same time frame).

Only way Imbue will 'cause more damage' is on the first hit as you can pre cast it.

Oh did I mention it was the same damage over the same time frame? Might have missed that.

EDIT: As an example: say imbue = 8k, FP = 8k, LA = 4k

Imbue (0k) > LA (4k + 8k) > Imbue (0k) > LA (4k+8k) = 24k over 2/3 seconds.
LA (4k) > FP (8k) > LA (4k) > FP (8k) = 24k over 2/3 seconds.
Same damage, same amount of casts, same time, just Imbue will damage at the same time as the LA rather than seperate.

Jsmalls

Joy_Division wrote: »

Rjizzle09 wrote: »

Naw here we go again with something being strong in pvp so it deserves a nerf. I'm so sick if that. Its a really good ability fir pve users but people want it nerfed now because of burst potential? Youre worried about imbue weapons killing you? lol My guy there are way worse things that can one shot you these days with all the combos that came to light because of jewelry crafting. Im so dome with the whole nerf something in pve cause its too strong in pvp. Weve had a whole slew of nerfs because of that so enough is enough. Leave pve out of this

It's not too strong for PvP. It's just the typical PTS cycle of some PVPers making a mountain out of molehill because they either don;t understand how the ability works, or using a cheese parse on a target dummy to exaggerate a point.

@Joy_Division

I think this may be the first time I'm disagreeing with you on virtually any post, but I truly think this skill is going to create a very specific problem in PvP.

I think it's a good addition to dueling or 1v1.

But Xv1 is just receiving another unneeded buff with this skill in my opinion. The tells of this ability can be seen in 1v1 but if you're being worked on by 2+ people you have to pick and choose what you get hit by. And this isn't going to be the ability you choose to block or dodge due to its "spammability". Just feel like next patch everyone will be eating a lot of 10k+ bursts out of no where from a light attack spammable skill combo.

My damage shields are about as large as they can get and they already melt like butter unless I'm constantly stacking them. Damage increase from this update is going to be painful.

But I guess it's whatever, Xv1 is dead with no agenda for it to even belong in the game according to the last 10 patches. Sigh.

ToRelax

So far I've achieved very similar results with builds using Elemental Weapon vs builds using Force Pulse. After an update goes live, I usually end up adding some sustain and/or defense to my builds at the cost of damage, so I can see myself using Elemental Weapon for the better sustain (especially with double resto). Don't think it's OP though.

Joy_Division

Jsmalls wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Rjizzle09 wrote: »

Naw here we go again with something being strong in pvp so it deserves a nerf. I'm so sick if that. Its a really good ability fir pve users but people want it nerfed now because of burst potential? Youre worried about imbue weapons killing you? lol My guy there are way worse things that can one shot you these days with all the combos that came to light because of jewelry crafting. Im so dome with the whole nerf something in pve cause its too strong in pvp. Weve had a whole slew of nerfs because of that so enough is enough. Leave pve out of this

It's not too strong for PvP. It's just the typical PTS cycle of some PVPers making a mountain out of molehill because they either don;t understand how the ability works, or using a cheese parse on a target dummy to exaggerate a point.

@Joy_Division

I think this may be the first time I'm disagreeing with you on virtually any post, but I truly think this skill is going to create a very specific problem in PvP.

I think it's a good addition to dueling or 1v1.

But Xv1 is just receiving another unneeded buff with this skill in my opinion. The tells of this ability can be seen in 1v1 but if you're being worked on by 2+ people you have to pick and choose what you get hit by. And this isn't going to be the ability you choose to block or dodge due to its "spammability". Just feel like next patch everyone will be eating a lot of 10k+ bursts out of no where from a light attack spammable skill combo.

My damage shields are about as large as they can get and they already melt like butter unless I'm constantly stacking them. Damage increase from this update is going to be painful.

But I guess it's whatever, Xv1 is dead with no agenda for it to even belong in the game according to the last 10 patches. Sigh.

Well, I'm sure I said a lot of disagree thigs here

Taking aside something we can debate, the power/effectiveness of Imbue Weapons, what I said is part absolutely correct: the OP simply did not understand how the skill works, continued to not understand how the skill worked even after it had been explained to him, and people are using PvE target dummies that are easily subjected to manipulation to "prove" a point.

And I've been on the PTs and a lot of other past PTS. There is no way all the people commenting on the power of these skills have actually tried them.

At a basic fundamental level, getting hit with light attack + Imbue weapon is not all that different at all than getting hit with a light attack + force pulse. It's comparable damage and in a comparable window of time. How is one more "spammable" than the other? You and others are trying to tell me this is somehow a better Xv1 tool, but I'm not exactly seeing how that is so given the comparable damage + comparable time. In fact, I would rather be hit by imbue weapon than force pulse/crushing shock because imbue weapon cannot interrupt me, imbue weapon can be reflected or absorbed whereas force pulse cannot, and the crushing shock combination is hitting me 4 times as opposed to twice and thus higher chance to proc set bonuses and stuff like that. What am I not considering about Imbue weapon that makes it so much more dangerous? I don't really care about the minor psijic glowey bubble damage.

Xv1 died a long long time ago, but this skill isn;t making that situation neither better or worse because it's just a skill that does comparable damage to other spammable skills. If that is not the case, what am I missing? I'm not saying you're wrong, I am saying what do you see that I don't?

My only concern with this skill is that is does allow a Nightblade to load up on extra stealth burst that they otherwise wouldn't have, i.e. going back to the broken old Evil hunter skill. But this is a NB/Stealth problem much more than an Imbue weapon which works just fine on every class except Nightblades. But then again somehow Nightblade is the only class in the game I have to slot specific potions and specific skills on my bar to fight against, so they always seem to be the problems with balancing things that are normally just fine.

Minalan

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Rjizzle09 wrote: »

Naw here we go again with something being strong in pvp so it deserves a nerf. I'm so sick if that. Its a really good ability fir pve users but people want it nerfed now because of burst potential? Youre worried about imbue weapons killing you? lol My guy there are way worse things that can one shot you these days with all the combos that came to light because of jewelry crafting. Im so dome with the whole nerf something in pve cause its too strong in pvp. Weve had a whole slew of nerfs because of that so enough is enough. Leave pve out of this

It's not too strong for PvP. It's just the typical PTS cycle of some PVPers making a mountain out of molehill because they either don;t understand how the ability works, or using a cheese parse on a target dummy to exaggerate a point.

@Joy_Division

I think this may be the first time I'm disagreeing with you on virtually any post, but I truly think this skill is going to create a very specific problem in PvP.

I think it's a good addition to dueling or 1v1.

But Xv1 is just receiving another unneeded buff with this skill in my opinion. The tells of this ability can be seen in 1v1 but if you're being worked on by 2+ people you have to pick and choose what you get hit by. And this isn't going to be the ability you choose to block or dodge due to its "spammability". Just feel like next patch everyone will be eating a lot of 10k+ bursts out of no where from a light attack spammable skill combo.

My damage shields are about as large as they can get and they already melt like butter unless I'm constantly stacking them. Damage increase from this update is going to be painful.

But I guess it's whatever, Xv1 is dead with no agenda for it to even belong in the game according to the last 10 patches. Sigh.

Well, I'm sure I said a lot of disagree thigs here

Taking aside something we can debate, the power/effectiveness of Imbue Weapons, what I said is part absolutely correct: the OP simply did not understand how the skill works, continued to not understand how the skill worked even after it had been explained to him, and people are using PvE target dummies that are easily subjected to manipulation to "prove" a point.

And I've been on the PTs and a lot of other past PTS. There is no way all the people commenting on the power of these skills have actually tried them.

At a basic fundamental level, getting hit with light attack + Imbue weapon is not all that different at all than getting hit with a light attack + force pulse. It's comparable damage and in a comparable window of time. How is one more "spammable" than the other? You and others are trying to tell me this is somehow a better Xv1 tool, but I'm not exactly seeing how that is so given the comparable damage + comparable time. In fact, I would rather be hit by imbue weapon than force pulse/crushing shock because imbue weapon cannot interrupt me, imbue weapon can be reflected or absorbed whereas force pulse cannot, and the crushing shock combination is hitting me 4 times as opposed to twice and thus higher chance to proc set bonuses and stuff like that. What am I not considering about Imbue weapon that makes it so much more dangerous? I don't really care about the minor psijic glowey bubble damage.

Xv1 died a long long time ago, but this skill isn;t making that situation neither better or worse because it's just a skill that does comparable damage to other spammable skills. If that is not the case, what am I missing? I'm not saying you're wrong, I am saying what do you see that I don't?

My only concern with this skill is that is does allow a Nightblade to load up on extra stealth burst that they otherwise wouldn't have, i.e. going back to the broken old Evil hunter skill. But this is a NB/Stealth problem much more than an Imbue weapon which works just fine on every class except Nightblades. But then again somehow Nightblade is the only class in the game I have to slot specific potions and specific skills on my bar to fight against, so they always seem to be the problems with balancing things that are normally just fine.

The devs thought of that. Elemental weapon pulls you out of stealth, and the buff only lasts two seconds or something silly no? So it’s not like you have time to load up other buffs on top of it, and they don’t have access to bound weapons.

So... Sure you can still pull it off, but you’ll be able to see them pop trying to set it up. Hold block.

Jsmalls

@Joy_Division

"Xv1 died a long long time ago, but this skill isn;t making that situation neither better or worse because it's just a skill that does comparable damage to other spammable skills. If that is not the case, what am I missing? I'm not saying you're wrong, I am saying what do you see that I don't?"

My concern is the added burst it gives you in combination with spammables. If you cast it like a buff (which by all means it is) and then use it on the next GCD with another spammable aka surprise attack, then in that GCD you'll be doing 2 abilities worth of damage in 1 GCD. Yes it does require setup, yes it does require a "wasted" GCD, and yes there are signs that the enemy is doing such an action. But in Xv1 that setup is easy, that "wasted" GCD is insignificant, and the signs of you setting up are harder to see. I'd personally rather get hit in two consecutive GCDs for 5k damage each than one GCD for 10k damage in a Xv1 scenario.

In my opinion the damage potential is similar to that of a curse + frag combo but instead of every 4 GCDs can be performed every 2 GCD, and instead of relying on a frag to proc it's just your normal spammable.

Im an Xbox player who doesn't have access to PTS so all I have to go on are theory crafted scenarios. Just seems problematic to me.

JPcrazysquirrel3

So, what I got from all of this was,...

Sweet f***, OP and a few others on this thread are window lickers!

https://goo.gl/images/CL3ZcN

https://goo.gl/images/vSiSDb

Joy_Division

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Joy_Division

"Xv1 died a long long time ago, but this skill isn;t making that situation neither better or worse because it's just a skill that does comparable damage to other spammable skills. If that is not the case, what am I missing? I'm not saying you're wrong, I am saying what do you see that I don't?"

My concern is the added burst it gives you in combination with spammables. If you cast it like a buff (which by all means it is) and then use it on the next GCD with another spammable aka surprise attack, then in that GCD you'll be doing 2 abilities worth of damage in 1 GCD. Yes it does require setup, yes it does require a "wasted" GCD, and yes there are signs that the enemy is doing such an action. But in Xv1 that setup is easy, that "wasted" GCD is insignificant, and the signs of you setting up are harder to see. I'd personally rather get hit in two consecutive GCDs for 5k damage each than one GCD for 10k damage in a Xv1 scenario.

In my opinion the damage potential is similar to that of a curse + frag combo but instead of every 4 GCDs can be performed every 2 GCD, and instead of relying on a frag to proc it's just your normal spammable.

Im an Xbox player who doesn't have access to PTS so all I have to go on are theory crafted scenarios. Just seems problematic to me.

I still don't understand how your concern: Imbue (buff) + light attack + spammable [2 GCDs] is worse than what can already be done on Live: light attack + spammable + light attack + spammable [2 GCDs].

Most of the people who are on the PTS have don't have an issue with it. Combining it with sorc overload I do agree is problematic, but that's a specific issue that ZoS can prevent from happening.

Minalan

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Joy_Division

"Xv1 died a long long time ago, but this skill isn;t making that situation neither better or worse because it's just a skill that does comparable damage to other spammable skills. If that is not the case, what am I missing? I'm not saying you're wrong, I am saying what do you see that I don't?"

My concern is the added burst it gives you in combination with spammables. If you cast it like a buff (which by all means it is) and then use it on the next GCD with another spammable aka surprise attack, then in that GCD you'll be doing 2 abilities worth of damage in 1 GCD. Yes it does require setup, yes it does require a "wasted" GCD, and yes there are signs that the enemy is doing such an action. But in Xv1 that setup is easy, that "wasted" GCD is insignificant, and the signs of you setting up are harder to see. I'd personally rather get hit in two consecutive GCDs for 5k damage each than one GCD for 10k damage in a Xv1 scenario.

In my opinion the damage potential is similar to that of a curse + frag combo but instead of every 4 GCDs can be performed every 2 GCD, and instead of relying on a frag to proc it's just your normal spammable.

Im an Xbox player who doesn't have access to PTS so all I have to go on are theory crafted scenarios. Just seems problematic to me.

I still don't understand how your concern: Imbue (buff) + light attack + spammable [2 GCDs] is worse than what can already be done on Live: light attack + spammable + light attack + spammable [2 GCDs].

Most of the people who are on the PTS have don't have an issue with it. Combining it with sorc overload I do agree is problematic, but that's a specific issue that ZoS can prevent from happening.

What they need to fix is the empowered light attack damage on overload. And I’m 99% certain they will because it’s so ridiculous now.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with imbued overload since it’s no worse than having frags on your overload bar with a ready proc. 2 GCD is 2 GCD, unless you want to nerf that too.

Ultimate_Overlord

To see why imbue weapon is overperforming you need to look at scenarios different from light attack+imbue weapon spam. Imbue weapon light attack+db does more damage than the current heavy attack+db and offers way less counterplay. Replacing heavy attacks in any burst combo with imbue light attack gives you more burst and removes a very large part of counterplay to those hard hitting combos, which is very unhealthy for pvp. The skill is basically cliff racer that does more dmg, has a lower cost and doesnt have the obvious animation.

Emma_Overload

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

It's meant to be a spammable ability, like strife, or force pulse, but dependent on your light attack. The 2s duration is there to try and prevent it from being delayed burst.

Yes I know it is a spammable but..it hits much harder than than other skills

Nah. You are forgetting that you have to sacrifice an ability cooldown in order to get that extra damage. It doesn't do more damage than Force Pulse, as far as I can tell.

Gorrest

While it takes a GCD in order to get the damage, people dont bat an eye when you have to waste a global cooldown for Sub Assault or Curse or even FoB. That extra up front damage is gonna hurt.

For example> Imbue>Light Attack>Whip>FoB>Skoria. Easy combo that one shot decent amount of people.
or

Sub Assault>Imbue>Light Attack>Steel Tornado

Curse>Endless>Imbue>Light Attack>Frag

Or even Imbue>Light Attack>Skill>Cal