Damages shields should be critable. Change my mind.

DDuke

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

10 tooltip rune cage doesn't exist.

45.5k magicka and 2750 spell damage is has a rune cage tooltip close to 8k.

Hold my beer.

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

61k magicka gives 29k dmg shields stacked. That is a lie

Is it? Perhaps.

I only get 36,5k. I'll admit I might've rounded it up a little.


40k is probably doable though if you get more CPs into Bastion and/or Warhorn, or just use different food with more magicka (PTS templates only get Witchmother's unfortunately...).


^
You can see I'm in Cyrodiil.

Maulkin

Enslaved wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Tell me how a sorc that does not stack shields is supposed to defend itself if said shield was able to be crit.

You´re basing your argument on the arbitrairy situation of sorcs stacking three shields completely ignoring every scenario where only 2 or 1 shield is used.

Also that you´re stating sorcs have the best sustain in the game tells me you have hands down next to no experience with the class - ever since i can think of sorc builds had to incorporate the most sustain into their builds out of all classes.
Sorc in combat sustain is among the worst of all classes only rivaled by DKs (those happen to get buffed in that regard btw).

Enslaved wrote: »

Damage shields should be critable, I agree.

It can be done in a way that will still make them more than viable but also be a counter for shield stacking.

What I suggest is that if you have one shield active at a time, crit chance on a shield should be capped at 10%

On the other hand, if you have 2 shields active at same time, there should be 20% crit chance on shields for the duration of last shield you casted.

With 3 shields this would be 30%.

This change would make no difference in PvE, since there is pretty much no crit chance on mobs, but would make PvP more balanced and less brain dead, especially for groups that base their survivability mostly on shields.

Can we make it in a way that shields then also scale with number of attackers? So when 2 ppl attack someone with shields as a main defense shields take 20% less dmg total 3 people 30% 4 people 40% up to a cap of 6?

One of the reasons shields can not be crit is that they´re a defense that does not scale at all (contrary to block/dodge) with number of attackers.

Name a better non stealth 1vX class damage wise. Sorcs are able to pull all that burst just because shields are so damn effective.

Also, I was speaking of all shields, not only sorc ones. So, igneous shield, barrier, harness/dampen magicka, bone surge, healing ward/ward ally, etc.

StamWarden.

Next.

a true scholar, I see. Blind, biased, but scholar.

Not my problem you don't know which classes are the strongest. Don't make your problems mine.

Joy_Division

If you're still asking for sorc nerfs at this date, it's a L2P issue.

Just get your robust gold infused Fury set jewelry have at those nerfed sorcs with your ridiculous weapon damage.

Minalan

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

10 tooltip rune cage doesn't exist.

45.5k magicka and 2750 spell damage is has a rune cage tooltip close to 8k.

Hold my beer.

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

61k magicka gives 29k dmg shields stacked. That is a lie

Is it? Perhaps.

I only get 36,5k. I'll admit I might've rounded it up a little.


40k is probably doable though if you get more CPs into Bastion and/or Warhorn, or just use different food with more magicka (PTS templates only get Witchmother's unfortunately...).


^
You can see I'm in Cyrodiil.

You’ve got a *triple* shield stack, and it looks like you’re using the new block shield passive, so that’s four. What does that last for, two seconds before they all start falling off? Lol. How long can you keep that up with a stamina character beating on them? I think you’re out of Magicka in about two refreshes.

So... Nice, but you’re still not ‘stacking’ more shields per second than can be pulled off with a simple heavy/skill or light/skill.

Try that in a real fight:
Hardened ward -> 12K. Heavy/dizzy. Gone
Harness -> 8K Dizzy/LA. You just took health damage, the crit overflowed your tiny shield.
Healing ward -> someone else nearby just took it. You’re dead!

PS: you have 10K stam. You’re not breaking a second or third stun. And you’re definitely not dodge rolling.

Shields are fine, and Sorcs are the most ‘balanced’ into the dirt since the game came out. If you’re not killing them now by the score, then you have my sympathies for being terrible at the game.

Aedaryl

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

10 tooltip rune cage doesn't exist.

45.5k magicka and 2750 spell damage is has a rune cage tooltip close to 8k.

Hold my beer.

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

61k magicka gives 29k dmg shields stacked. That is a lie

Is it? Perhaps.

I only get 36,5k. I'll admit I might've rounded it up a little.


40k is probably doable though if you get more CPs into Bastion and/or Warhorn, or just use different food with more magicka (PTS templates only get Witchmother's unfortunately...).


^
You can see I'm in Cyrodiil.

You are not running a viable build.

You can go full damage on any build and say "this class is OP"

Post a screen of your buff and character sheet, don't max a stats and say other damage is OP.

JUST LOOK AT YOUR BARS this isn't serious, you don't even have a pure damage skill

This isn't fair with yourself.

Also, PTS template have acces to other food than wichmother.

@Derra

usmguy1234

ak_pvp wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

No. I think shields should take status effects and maybe even have a defile, since they can't be reduced in any way, and even the CP counter sucks.

They shouldn't be critted though. Since they take full unresisted damage, that being amplified would be wayy to high and could 1 shot a shield.

Dodge roll doesn’t take status effects from dodged skills, so why should shield? Are you better than me and deserve a more effective defense?

As it is, we already take every stun and knockdown effect, that’s enough.

Because dodge isn't as spammable as shields (Even though they are a lot more costly now, even every DK and their mother is running shields) and dodge avoids the attack entirely, however still takes full damage to health from dots. Shields, whilst not nearly as strong as cloak, is the defense with the least counters.

"But logic, status effects can't effect the player if it hits a ward" 1) Things like defile from snipe go through. 2) If logic applied everywhere, dots applied when shields are down should hit health 3) Logic should come second for important balance.

If shields are so awesome why does every shield based magicka character have to run a minimum of 15k stam in order to not be free ap?

Haha what does that have to do with shields. Everyone needs around 15k mag to break free. Even full cloak NBs.

Well if shields are so op then you shouldn't need the stam. Looks like you agree that everyone whether they have shields or not are on the same playing ground.

ak_pvp

usmguy1234 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

No. I think shields should take status effects and maybe even have a defile, since they can't be reduced in any way, and even the CP counter sucks.

They shouldn't be critted though. Since they take full unresisted damage, that being amplified would be wayy to high and could 1 shot a shield.

Dodge roll doesn’t take status effects from dodged skills, so why should shield? Are you better than me and deserve a more effective defense?

As it is, we already take every stun and knockdown effect, that’s enough.

Because dodge isn't as spammable as shields (Even though they are a lot more costly now, even every DK and their mother is running shields) and dodge avoids the attack entirely, however still takes full damage to health from dots. Shields, whilst not nearly as strong as cloak, is the defense with the least counters.

"But logic, status effects can't effect the player if it hits a ward" 1) Things like defile from snipe go through. 2) If logic applied everywhere, dots applied when shields are down should hit health 3) Logic should come second for important balance.

If shields are so awesome why does every shield based magicka character have to run a minimum of 15k stam in order to not be free ap?

Haha what does that have to do with shields. Everyone needs around 15k mag to break free. Even full cloak NBs.

Well if shields are so op then you shouldn't need the stam. Looks like you agree that everyone whether they have shields or not are on the same playing ground.

I don't think you know how the game works.

usmguy1234

ak_pvp wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

No. I think shields should take status effects and maybe even have a defile, since they can't be reduced in any way, and even the CP counter sucks.

They shouldn't be critted though. Since they take full unresisted damage, that being amplified would be wayy to high and could 1 shot a shield.

Dodge roll doesn’t take status effects from dodged skills, so why should shield? Are you better than me and deserve a more effective defense?

As it is, we already take every stun and knockdown effect, that’s enough.

Because dodge isn't as spammable as shields (Even though they are a lot more costly now, even every DK and their mother is running shields) and dodge avoids the attack entirely, however still takes full damage to health from dots. Shields, whilst not nearly as strong as cloak, is the defense with the least counters.

"But logic, status effects can't effect the player if it hits a ward" 1) Things like defile from snipe go through. 2) If logic applied everywhere, dots applied when shields are down should hit health 3) Logic should come second for important balance.

If shields are so awesome why does every shield based magicka character have to run a minimum of 15k stam in order to not be free ap?

Haha what does that have to do with shields. Everyone needs around 15k mag to break free. Even full cloak NBs.

Well if shields are so op then you shouldn't need the stam. Looks like you agree that everyone whether they have shields or not are on the same playing ground.

I don't think you know how the game works.

So, no objective points. Guess we are done here.

ak_pvp

usmguy1234 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

No. I think shields should take status effects and maybe even have a defile, since they can't be reduced in any way, and even the CP counter sucks.

They shouldn't be critted though. Since they take full unresisted damage, that being amplified would be wayy to high and could 1 shot a shield.

Dodge roll doesn’t take status effects from dodged skills, so why should shield? Are you better than me and deserve a more effective defense?

As it is, we already take every stun and knockdown effect, that’s enough.

Because dodge isn't as spammable as shields (Even though they are a lot more costly now, even every DK and their mother is running shields) and dodge avoids the attack entirely, however still takes full damage to health from dots. Shields, whilst not nearly as strong as cloak, is the defense with the least counters.

"But logic, status effects can't effect the player if it hits a ward" 1) Things like defile from snipe go through. 2) If logic applied everywhere, dots applied when shields are down should hit health 3) Logic should come second for important balance.

If shields are so awesome why does every shield based magicka character have to run a minimum of 15k stam in order to not be free ap?

Haha what does that have to do with shields. Everyone needs around 15k mag to break free. Even full cloak NBs.

Well if shields are so op then you shouldn't need the stam. Looks like you agree that everyone whether they have shields or not are on the same playing ground.

I don't think you know how the game works.

So, no objective points. Guess we are done here.

Every class ever, with any kind of defense needs sufficient stam to break free. That doesn't mean that all defenses are equal. Shield has less counters than other defenses, though cloak is still stronger and needs sorting too. Sorc should be mobility based imo anyway.

Deflecting too hard, trolling, or just lack of knowledge?

Ragnarock41

imo sorcerers should be high burst high mobility low defence mages. The current state of magsorc is the opposite of that.

Kelces

I am not sure what to think, but there is one thing that strikes me as suspicious about the claims that sorcerers are already nerfed to the ground.

So if that's the case, why then is it the only class that doesn't need as many pieces with impenetrable as any other classes do?

Doesn't quite compute...

usmguy1234

ak_pvp wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

No. I think shields should take status effects and maybe even have a defile, since they can't be reduced in any way, and even the CP counter sucks.

They shouldn't be critted though. Since they take full unresisted damage, that being amplified would be wayy to high and could 1 shot a shield.

Dodge roll doesn’t take status effects from dodged skills, so why should shield? Are you better than me and deserve a more effective defense?

As it is, we already take every stun and knockdown effect, that’s enough.

Because dodge isn't as spammable as shields (Even though they are a lot more costly now, even every DK and their mother is running shields) and dodge avoids the attack entirely, however still takes full damage to health from dots. Shields, whilst not nearly as strong as cloak, is the defense with the least counters.

"But logic, status effects can't effect the player if it hits a ward" 1) Things like defile from snipe go through. 2) If logic applied everywhere, dots applied when shields are down should hit health 3) Logic should come second for important balance.

If shields are so awesome why does every shield based magicka character have to run a minimum of 15k stam in order to not be free ap?

Haha what does that have to do with shields. Everyone needs around 15k mag to break free. Even full cloak NBs.

Well if shields are so op then you shouldn't need the stam. Looks like you agree that everyone whether they have shields or not are on the same playing ground.

I don't think you know how the game works.

So, no objective points. Guess we are done here.

Every class ever, with any kind of defense needs sufficient stam to break free. That doesn't mean that all defenses are equal. Shield has less counters than other defenses, though cloak is still stronger and needs sorting too. Sorc should be mobility based imo anyway.

Deflecting too hard, trolling, or just lack of knowledge?

Ok I'm really going to deflect. How often as a mdk main do you die to a sorc in pvp compared to the other classes? How often are those deaths related to the fact that you can't burst their shields down?

xaraan

I think crits should still work on shields, but that's also a big reason they are half power in cyrodiil, so be careful what you ask for. If they change one, they may revert the other.

Ragnarock41

xaraan wrote: »

I think crits should still work on shields, but that's also a big reason they are half power in cyrodiil, so be careful what you ask for. If they change one, they may revert the other.

healing is also halved in PvP. The reason according to sorc players, is that shields are uncrittable because you can't crit a shield too, while heals can crit. Which is meh,fine.Whatever really.

But shields are completely immune to status effects, which is totally unneccessary if you ask my opinion.

HoloYoitsu

Sorry, there's just no way to take you seriously when you say things like this:

Reloader84 wrote: »

Probably the most unpopular topic due to the amount of sorcerers out in PvP and this is mainly focused around them because i think they need to be brought down a step or two.

That's rich, when 2/3 of the ppl I fight on a nightly basis are stamblades.

Reloader84 wrote: »

Sorcerers have the best mobility in the game, best ranged damage in the game, and amazing sustain. When you put that together with stackable damage shields, Sorcerers have the best survivability in the game. Additionally, no class can really compete with the potential to 1vx with the odds that a sorcerer has.

Hyperbole should only be used as a flavorful garnish, but you've gone ahead an made the whole dang burger out of it!

usmguy1234

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Sorry, there's just no way to take you seriously when you say things like this:

Reloader84 wrote: »

Probably the most unpopular topic due to the amount of sorcerers out in PvP and this is mainly focused around them because i think they need to be brought down a step or two.

That's rich, when 2/3 of the ppl I fight on a nightly basis are stamblades.

Reloader84 wrote: »

Sorcerers have the best mobility in the game, best ranged damage in the game, and amazing sustain. When you put that together with stackable damage shields, Sorcerers have the best survivability in the game. Additionally, no class can really compete with the potential to 1vx with the odds that a sorcerer has.

Hyperbole should only be used as a flavorful garnish, but you've gone ahead an made the whole dang burger out of it!

I would gloat like the nightblades and tell these people to getgud and l2p and streak away from the lynch mob but I ran out of magicka on the 2nd streak...

Nifty2g

shields take true damage don't they, probably why you can't crit them

Minalan

usmguy1234 wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Sorry, there's just no way to take you seriously when you say things like this:

Reloader84 wrote: »

Probably the most unpopular topic due to the amount of sorcerers out in PvP and this is mainly focused around them because i think they need to be brought down a step or two.

That's rich, when 2/3 of the ppl I fight on a nightly basis are stamblades.

Reloader84 wrote: »

Sorcerers have the best mobility in the game, best ranged damage in the game, and amazing sustain. When you put that together with stackable damage shields, Sorcerers have the best survivability in the game. Additionally, no class can really compete with the potential to 1vx with the odds that a sorcerer has.

Hyperbole should only be used as a flavorful garnish, but you've gone ahead an made the whole dang burger out of it!

I would gloat like the nightblades and tell these people to getgud and l2p and streak away from the lynch mob but I ran out of magicka on the 2nd streak...

I dark exchanged and got in a third, but then they silver leashed me right back into the stamina zerg.

Highest mobility. Lol!

IZZEFlameLash

Shield goes in a matter of second these days. And I can even see shieldstacking sorc panic when my mDK hit them too and I run s/b not some awesome dw/staff damage build. So, no. You don't even have to run a high damage build to counter a sorc. You just need to time your burst with well placed CC in between shieldings. Shielders do not last forever because 7k or so total cost in average shield stacking builds are going to run them dry a lot faster. Shield stack is only a problem to magicka builds because it prolongs the fight but it still can be done.

Derra

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

10 tooltip rune cage doesn't exist.

45.5k magicka and 2750 spell damage is has a rune cage tooltip close to 8k.

Hold my beer.

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

61k magicka gives 29k dmg shields stacked. That is a lie

Is it? Perhaps.

I only get 36,5k. I'll admit I might've rounded it up a little.


40k is probably doable though if you get more CPs into Bastion and/or Warhorn, or just use different food with more magicka (PTS templates only get Witchmother's unfortunately...).


^
You can see I'm in Cyrodiil.

You are not running a viable build.

You can go full damage on any build and say "this class is OP"

Post a screen of your buff and character sheet, don't max a stats and say other damage is OP.

JUST LOOK AT YOUR BARS this isn't serious, you don't even have a pure damage skill

This isn't fair with yourself.

Also, PTS template have acces to other food than wichmother.

@Derra

I don´t even want to get involved with this.
It´s the definition of a strawman argument. Deci knows it. We know it. There is no point in discussing.

Hey look my tooltip for cage is 10k - it´s the only ability i deal dmg with BUT ITS 10K like i said earlier.

Head => Wall

Feanor

Derra wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

10 tooltip rune cage doesn't exist.

45.5k magicka and 2750 spell damage is has a rune cage tooltip close to 8k.

Hold my beer.

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

61k magicka gives 29k dmg shields stacked. That is a lie

Is it? Perhaps.

I only get 36,5k. I'll admit I might've rounded it up a little.


40k is probably doable though if you get more CPs into Bastion and/or Warhorn, or just use different food with more magicka (PTS templates only get Witchmother's unfortunately...).


^
You can see I'm in Cyrodiil.

You are not running a viable build.

You can go full damage on any build and say "this class is OP"

Post a screen of your buff and character sheet, don't max a stats and say other damage is OP.

JUST LOOK AT YOUR BARS this isn't serious, you don't even have a pure damage skill

This isn't fair with yourself.

Also, PTS template have acces to other food than wichmother.

@Derra

I don´t even want to get involved with this.
It´s the definition of a strawman argument. Deci knows it. We know it. There is no point in discussing.

Hey look my tooltip for cage is 10k - it´s the only ability i deal dmg with BUT ITS 10K like i said earlier.

Head => Wall

I wonder what he would tell us if we made a super inflated Snipe screenshot and told him bow is OP because of it

Of course you can always cheese stats. You can push Spell Damage up to 5k+ too if someone is feeding you all the buffs. It’s not a playable build then though, just like in this case.

Another thing I would like is: Remove Shield stacking, but increase the base damage of a single shield significantly. Would help out noCP tremendously as well.

Enslaved

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

10 tooltip rune cage doesn't exist.

45.5k magicka and 2750 spell damage is has a rune cage tooltip close to 8k.

Hold my beer.

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

61k magicka gives 29k dmg shields stacked. That is a lie

Is it? Perhaps.

I only get 36,5k. I'll admit I might've rounded it up a little.


40k is probably doable though if you get more CPs into Bastion and/or Warhorn, or just use different food with more magicka (PTS templates only get Witchmother's unfortunately...).


^
You can see I'm in Cyrodiil.

You’ve got a *triple* shield stack, and it looks like you’re using the new block shield passive, so that’s four. What does that last for, two seconds before they all start falling off? Lol. How long can you keep that up with a stamina character beating on them? I think you’re out of Magicka in about two refreshes.

So... Nice, but you’re still not ‘stacking’ more shields per second than can be pulled off with a simple heavy/skill or light/skill.

Try that in a real fight:
Hardened ward -> 12K. Heavy/dizzy. Gone
Harness -> 8K Dizzy/LA. You just took health damage, the crit overflowed your tiny shield.
Healing ward -> someone else nearby just took it. You’re dead!

PS: you have 10K stam. You’re not breaking a second or third stun. And you’re definitely not dodge rolling.

Shields are fine, and Sorcs are the most ‘balanced’ into the dirt since the game came out. If you’re not killing them now by the score, then you have my sympathies for being terrible at the game.

If you are hit that easy with dizzying at 2018, you should consider going Wrothgar, jumping off cliff, uninstalling game, deleting system 32 and 68 and go apply for life in a monastery.

Feanor

Enslaved wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

10 tooltip rune cage doesn't exist.

45.5k magicka and 2750 spell damage is has a rune cage tooltip close to 8k.

Hold my beer.

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

61k magicka gives 29k dmg shields stacked. That is a lie

Is it? Perhaps.

I only get 36,5k. I'll admit I might've rounded it up a little.


40k is probably doable though if you get more CPs into Bastion and/or Warhorn, or just use different food with more magicka (PTS templates only get Witchmother's unfortunately...).


^
You can see I'm in Cyrodiil.

You’ve got a *triple* shield stack, and it looks like you’re using the new block shield passive, so that’s four. What does that last for, two seconds before they all start falling off? Lol. How long can you keep that up with a stamina character beating on them? I think you’re out of Magicka in about two refreshes.

So... Nice, but you’re still not ‘stacking’ more shields per second than can be pulled off with a simple heavy/skill or light/skill.

Try that in a real fight:
Hardened ward -> 12K. Heavy/dizzy. Gone
Harness -> 8K Dizzy/LA. You just took health damage, the crit overflowed your tiny shield.
Healing ward -> someone else nearby just took it. You’re dead!

PS: you have 10K stam. You’re not breaking a second or third stun. And you’re definitely not dodge rolling.

Shields are fine, and Sorcs are the most ‘balanced’ into the dirt since the game came out. If you’re not killing them now by the score, then you have my sympathies for being terrible at the game.

If you are hit that easy with dizzying at 2018, you should consider going Wrothgar, jumping off cliff, uninstalling game, deleting system 32 and 68 and go apply for life in a monastery.

You can replace Dizzy with Surprise Attack. Same result almost.

Maulkin

Kelces wrote: »

I am not sure what to think, but there is one thing that strikes me as suspicious about the claims that sorcerers are already nerfed to the ground.

So if that's the case, why then is it the only class that doesn't need as many pieces with impenetrable as any other classes do?

Doesn't quite compute...

They're not nerfed to the ground. There's excess QQ. They are in a decent shape, just worse than before. They're just not in a position to receive nerfs, especially ones pertaining to their survivability.

The second statement is wrong. Many people build block builds around Sturdy trait for many different classes. And Impen is still BiS for PvP Sorc, especially so in no-CP content where you can't build for low dodge roll costs anyway.

You know what doesn't compute. Stamblades making threads about nerfing shields and having more counters to block (looking at the thread about Shieldbreaker doing oblivion damage to block holders). That is what does not compute.

Galarthor

The reason you cannot crit on shields is because shields themselves don't crit.

Shields are basically nothing but an up front heal. And heals, as we all know, can crit. Which is necessary and balanced since the damage abilities these heals are meant to counter can crit as well.

If you want shields to be critable you will have to allow shields to crit themselves for the sake of balance. But I doubt people want to see shields that crit and provide 20k damage absorbtion (up front heal) each.

Now you will argue that it is not necessary to allow shields to crit because you can stack multiple shields at the same time.
But you are doing the very same thing with every other defensive ability - you stack them all.

You can have multiple heals on you at the same time. In addition you are benefiting from resistances.
You can perma block and still receive bonuses from your armor and heals.
The list goes on and on.

Also the arguement that other defensive abilities such as DK wings and dodge roll cannot crit and thus it is not necessary for shields to be able to crit, if they can be critted themselfes, is invalid as these abilties mitigate a relative amount of damage not an absolute one like heals and shields do. Wings, for example, don't care if they are hit by a 2k projectile or a 200k projectile, but heals and shields do. In the former case you'd be fine, in the latter dead.

Pointing out that shields are only so strong because sorcs can use two or three of them at the same time is not really a valid point to make either. Two out of those three shields are available to all classes, which means sorcs only got one additional shield. In fact there are no passives that give sorcs some benefits over other classes when it comes to using damage shields. And all other classes got their own respective damage mitigation tools as counterparts to the sorc's Conjured Ward - e.g. Breath of Life, Cloak, ...

The problem with shields is primarily a psychological one. You are missing out on your sense of reward because you are performing an action that usually leads to a movement of your opponents health bar but nothing (or very little) is happening to said health bar. If the shields would be displayed as an increase in HP and you would see the enemies HP bar fluctuate you'd feel very differently about shields.

if you stay impartial you will notice that very quickly when you use shields against both players with shields and players without shields.

The only shield that is really broken OP is the wardens Crystallized Shield. The amount of damage it absorbs relative to it effective cost is ridiculously - especially in the case of Shimmering Shields. And the current PTS changes do nothing to alleviate this problem.

Derra

Galarthor wrote: »

The problem with shields is primarily a psychological one. You are missing out on your sense of reward because you are performing an action that usually leads to a movement of your opponents health bar but nothing (or very little) is happening to said health bar. If the shields would be displayed as an increase in HP and you would see the enemies HP bar fluctuate you'd feel very differently about shields.

I think the main issue is that the shield display in the base UI is outright terrible.
You don´t get number + % display for shields.
The shield bar is badly visible overlay for the normal HP bar.
The shield bar is moving in a different direction than HP bar when attacked.

Everything about this is terrible.

Give shields a proper 2nd bar visible on top or below the normal health bar.
Give them % + number labels.
Give them the same dynamic as healthbars when drained/replenished.

This would solve a lot of perceived issues with shields.

Septimus_Magna

I agree that shields shouldnt negate all the crit hit chance and crit hit dmg of the attacker.
On the other side, the spell crit of the caster shouldnt be ignored if attacks can crit on shields.

Shield size could scale up with spell crit, so 50% spell crit gives 25% larger shield for example.
The crit hit dmg modifier is usually higher than 150% so this favors the attacker.

Shields that scale off health could have a special effect that prevents the attacker from critically striking.

Galarthor

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I agree that shields shouldnt negate all the crit hit chance and crit hit dmg of the attacker.
On the other side, the spell crit of the caster shouldnt be ignored if attacks can crit on shields.

Shield size could scale up with spell crit, so 50% spell crit gives 25% larger shield for example.
The crit hit dmg modifier is usually higher than 150% so this favors the attacker.

Shields that scale off health could have a special effect that prevents the attacker from critically striking.

And what good will that do? We are having a psychological / display issue not a balancing one.

Your suggestion effectively increases the damage any build that utilizes shields takes by at least 20% (based on a crit factor of atleast 150%). Which is on top of the already increased damage to shields due to the lack of mitigation through resistances.

Why don't we increase damage by 20% across the board ... just to be fair ... and not just punish certain builds while massively buffing others. There will also be an additional penalty necessary for relative damage mitigation abilities as those will effectively be buffed if damage is increased.

Also, you want the one shield that is applied to multiple people at the same time to remain crit immune? That seems rather biased and unbalanced.

Kelces

Maulkin wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

I am not sure what to think, but there is one thing that strikes me as suspicious about the claims that sorcerers are already nerfed to the ground.

So if that's the case, why then is it the only class that doesn't need as many pieces with impenetrable as any other classes do?

Doesn't quite compute...

They're not nerfed to the ground. There's excess QQ. They are in a decent shape, just worse than before. They're just not in a position to receive nerfs, especially ones pertaining to their survivability.

The second statement is wrong. Many people build block builds around Sturdy trait for many different classes. And Impen is still BiS for PvP Sorc, especially so in no-CP content where you can't build for low dodge roll costs anyway.

You know what doesn't compute. Stamblades making threads about nerfing shields and having more counters to block (looking at the thread about Shieldbreaker doing oblivion damage to block holders). That is what does not compute.

Sure, everyone preferably uses impenetrable obviously, but they don't need it necessarely like other classes.

Having to have shieldbreaker to be competitive at all seems to be a bit limiting compared to what choices you have with other classes to go successfully against others.

Feanor

Kelces wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

I am not sure what to think, but there is one thing that strikes me as suspicious about the claims that sorcerers are already nerfed to the ground.

So if that's the case, why then is it the only class that doesn't need as many pieces with impenetrable as any other classes do?

Doesn't quite compute...

They're not nerfed to the ground. There's excess QQ. They are in a decent shape, just worse than before. They're just not in a position to receive nerfs, especially ones pertaining to their survivability.

The second statement is wrong. Many people build block builds around Sturdy trait for many different classes. And Impen is still BiS for PvP Sorc, especially so in no-CP content where you can't build for low dodge roll costs anyway.

You know what doesn't compute. Stamblades making threads about nerfing shields and having more counters to block (looking at the thread about Shieldbreaker doing oblivion damage to block holders). That is what does not compute.

Sure, everyone preferably uses impenetrable obviously, but they don't need it necessarely like other classes.

Having to have shieldbreaker to be competitive at all seems to be a bit limiting compared to what choices you have with other classes to go successfully against others.

You don’t need to have SB to be „competitive at all“ vs a shield user. That’s just not true. Not even remotely.