Damages shields should be critable. Change my mind.

Enslaved · April 2018

what I proposed should not affect PvE in any way, I think.

Rohamad_Ali · April 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Baz wrote: »

You know that the shield has 0 resistances ? What the point to add on top of that to take critical damages ? I don't understand.

(Templar here)

Because OP's probably sitting at 70% crit, that's why.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Tell me how a sorc that does not stack shields is supposed to defend itself if said shield was able to be crit.

You´re basing your argument on the arbitrairy situation of sorcs stacking three shields completely ignoring every scenario where only 2 or 1 shield is used.

Also that you´re stating sorcs have the best sustain in the game tells me you have hands down next to no experience with the class - ever since i can think of sorc builds had to incorporate the most sustain into their builds out of all classes.
Sorc in combat sustain is among the worst of all classes only rivaled by DKs (those happen to get buffed in that regard btw).

Enslaved wrote: »

Damage shields should be critable, I agree.

It can be done in a way that will still make them more than viable but also be a counter for shield stacking.

What I suggest is that if you have one shield active at a time, crit chance on a shield should be capped at 10%

On the other hand, if you have 2 shields active at same time, there should be 20% crit chance on shields for the duration of last shield you casted.

With 3 shields this would be 30%.

This change would make no difference in PvE, since there is pretty much no crit chance on mobs, but would make PvP more balanced and less brain dead, especially for groups that base their survivability mostly on shields.

Can we make it in a way that shields then also scale with number of attackers? So when 2 ppl attack someone with shields as a main defense shields take 20% less dmg total 3 people 30% 4 people 40% up to a cap of 6?

One of the reasons shields can not be crit is that they´re a defense that does not scale at all (contrary to block/dodge) with number of attackers.

Name a better non stealth 1vX class damage wise. Sorcs are able to pull all that burst just because shields are so damn effective.

Also, I was speaking of all shields, not only sorc ones. So, igneous shield, barrier, harness/dampen magicka, bone surge, healing ward/ward ally, etc.

Do you do any vet hard mode dungeons ? Is this suggestion coming from PvP only ? Because the Crits inside some of those vet trials wipe everyone without A good tank with shields for everyone . There are other reasons shields are not critable but there's a good reason for the mechanics as others are telling you .

Since when can PvE anything crit?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/243124/can-npcs-or-dungeon-trial-bosses-crit

Personofsecrets a couple years back found them criting . I just went back in the thread and read it was unintentional and the dev posted they fixed it .

Derra · April 2018

Enslaved wrote: »

Name a better non stealth 1vX class damage wise. Sorcs are able to pull all that burst just because shields are so damn effective.

So you´re ruling out nightblades per se? That´s a clever move

You´re hugely mistaken on why sorcs are good at open world pvp though (i dislike the term 1vX for various reasons). It´s got nothing to do with shields and stacking them. It´s just about mobility.

Coincidentally this mobility is useless against a single competent opponent but hugely effective against not so clever opponents.

Also everything about sorc screams potatomasher. It´s literally a nerddestroyer and noobstomper class. Sorcs are able to pull all that burst because the whole class is setup around that burst.
It´s not like there is an option to go for sustained pressure builds on sorc - because it´s a burst class.
That burst happens to kill players that fail to prepare for it within the 3.5s of blue cloud + soundcue on their character.
Nothing about this has anything to do with shields.

WhipSmartMcoy · April 2018

Whats your Gt? Or are you a Pc/Ps4?
I just want to identify another player who doesn't know how to kill a sorc, so I know who to target when I play mine lol

ToRelax · April 2018

Reloader84 wrote: »

4. "insert some unfounded attack saying i don't know what I'm talking about" -stop crying and realize the big picture.

You don't know what you're talking about. You're also the one crying.

Merlin13KAGL · April 2018

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Baz wrote: »

You know that the shield has 0 resistances ? What the point to add on top of that to take critical damages ? I don't understand.

(Templar here)

Because OP's probably sitting at 70% crit, that's why.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Tell me how a sorc that does not stack shields is supposed to defend itself if said shield was able to be crit.

You´re basing your argument on the arbitrairy situation of sorcs stacking three shields completely ignoring every scenario where only 2 or 1 shield is used.

Also that you´re stating sorcs have the best sustain in the game tells me you have hands down next to no experience with the class - ever since i can think of sorc builds had to incorporate the most sustain into their builds out of all classes.
Sorc in combat sustain is among the worst of all classes only rivaled by DKs (those happen to get buffed in that regard btw).

Enslaved wrote: »

Damage shields should be critable, I agree.

It can be done in a way that will still make them more than viable but also be a counter for shield stacking.

What I suggest is that if you have one shield active at a time, crit chance on a shield should be capped at 10%

On the other hand, if you have 2 shields active at same time, there should be 20% crit chance on shields for the duration of last shield you casted.

With 3 shields this would be 30%.

This change would make no difference in PvE, since there is pretty much no crit chance on mobs, but would make PvP more balanced and less brain dead, especially for groups that base their survivability mostly on shields.

Can we make it in a way that shields then also scale with number of attackers? So when 2 ppl attack someone with shields as a main defense shields take 20% less dmg total 3 people 30% 4 people 40% up to a cap of 6?

One of the reasons shields can not be crit is that they´re a defense that does not scale at all (contrary to block/dodge) with number of attackers.

Name a better non stealth 1vX class damage wise. Sorcs are able to pull all that burst just because shields are so damn effective.

Also, I was speaking of all shields, not only sorc ones. So, igneous shield, barrier, harness/dampen magicka, bone surge, healing ward/ward ally, etc.

Do you do any vet hard mode dungeons ? Is this suggestion coming from PvP only ? Because the Crits inside some of those vet trials wipe everyone without A good tank with shields for everyone . There are other reasons shields are not critable but there's a good reason for the mechanics as others are telling you .

Since when can PvE anything crit?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/243124/can-npcs-or-dungeon-trial-bosses-crit

Personofsecrets a couple years back found them criting . I just went back in the thread and read it was unintentional and the dev posted they fixed it .

Then you might consider updating your post.

A bug that has been fixed for over two years clearly does not apply.

Vercingetorix · April 2018

Your request for crittable shields would have been a more reasonable request 2 years ago before damage shield duration was nerfed into the ground, which expectedly did not accomplish anything. With the 6 second duration on shields, your request is unreasonable. I'd only agree to crittable shields if every damage shield ability in the game is restored to its original duration before the Thieves Guild patch.

DDuke · April 2018

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.

I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.

So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

Beardimus · April 2018

Reloader84 wrote: »

Probably the most unpopular topic due to the amount of sorcerers out in PvP and this is mainly focused around them because i think they need to be brought down a step or two.

Sorcerers have the best mobility in the game, best ranged damage in the game, and amazing sustain. When you put that together with stackable damage shields, Sorcerers have the best survivability in the game. Additionally, no class can really compete with the potential to 1vx with the odds that a sorcerer has.

Now i imagine people are gonna say in retort to this statement

1. Shields have been nerfed already to 6s. -Well shields have no cooldown timer and can be instantly recast.
2. Shields cost a fair amount of magicka and cannot be sustained that long. -There are far too many sets, passives, abilities, and pots to really make that a valid argument.
3. But if our shields go down we are pretty much dead. -Yeah duh, with mobility and damage you shouldn't have the survivability of a Dragonknight.
4. "insert some unfounded attack saying i don't know what I'm talking about" -stop crying and realize the big picture.

So legitimate solutions that will not break the game or put any class at a disadvantage or another at an advantage, but bring a semblance of balance.

There is really only one thing to do. Make shields able to be crit. Now if this happens there would need to be some changes. One change would be that the impenetrable trait would need to affect shields. This would also force Sorcerers to start using impenetrable trait instead of divines or infused traits (like everyone else) or change their champion point distribution. there would also need to be a difference in how oblivion damage affects shields such as the Shield Breaker set, instead of damage going past the shield it should be changed to something along the lines of additional damage to shields maybe something like shattering blows gives.

All of this is true. For Sorcs in 2015. Saying all this now is hilarious. Honestly, Sorcs arent troubling anyone right now, not in duels not in Cyro. The only people Sorcs dominate is noobs..

Active defences costs resources. Huge amounts and.if they re speccing for sustain then they doing less damage. Learn to counter and your complaints all go away.

I'm sorry but its a L2CS counter sorc thread again.

The only Crit shields need is to crit in strength lol changing.this would mean all ward users to respec for Impen. Huge cost to.them and reduction in damage. Sorcs burst is wet anyway these days.

OP could not be more wrong

Derra · April 2018

DDuke wrote: »

stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

I agree - stacking needs to go.

But so needs the possibility to stalk a target in stealth for an extended amount of time as that also does not feel right imo

Rohamad_Ali · April 2018

See ? Now it's turning into nerf NB and Sorc . Just stop . Get out of here with that .

DDuke · April 2018

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

I agree - stacking needs to go.

But so needs the possibility to stalk a target in stealth for an extended amount of time as that also does not feel right imo

It doesn't, but on a bow build it's currently the only way you kill a sorc stacking shields :P

I tend to leave sorcs with shields up alone on Live as chances of bursting them down are very, very slim - but that's not really an option if Summerset launches as is - Rune Cage is death sentence to any medium armor build (especially squishier ones) as it pulls you within execute range with the damage now and it's not like you can do anything to prevent that damage when the ability is undodgeable/blockable and has 28m range.

Only way to survive Rune Cage combos on PTS is to play a tank build, and only way to kill those utilizing Rune Cage combos (without playing a tank build) is to stalk them in stealth until their shields are down and then burst them down. That's just how it is

Tempestwrath · April 2018

If damage shields can be crit against, then damage shields need to factor in the user's spell and crit resistance, because right now you can hit them for 100% unmitigated damage.

In my opinion, things are fine the way they are.

Minalan · April 2018

Sure. I’m perfectly okay with this change as a Sorc!

However:
1. If you can crit on a shield, then a shield cast should be able to crit.
2. If crit damage modifiers apply to a shield, then so does the cast.
3. To be fair, you have to add in bonus shields from buffs like mending.
4. You’d have to add armor resistance to shields, same as I’m wearing with boundless storm.

Crit my shields all you want, I’ll have a 70K stack with better than medium armor stats!

There’s a reason that shields don’t allow critical hits. If you want to break a shield, stack more damage and less crit. You should be able to break ANY shield in ONE GCD.

Honestly if you can’t do 12K damage in one hit maybe you should go back to the game tutorial. Light attack weave plus one skill. A sorc can only cast ONE shield per GCD.

Derra · April 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

I agree - stacking needs to go.

But so needs the possibility to stalk a target in stealth for an extended amount of time as that also does not feel right imo

It doesn't, but on a bow build it's currently the only way you kill a sorc stacking shields :P

I tend to leave sorcs with shields up alone on Live as chances of bursting them down are very, very slim - but that's not really an option if Summerset launches as is - Rune Cage is death sentence to any medium armor build (especially squishier ones) as it pulls you within execute range with the damage now.

I think rune cage is just broken when combined with meteor + the existing sorc toolkit and hopefully will see rework before going live to work more like petrify/fear.
CC + debuff or at least get it´s dmg reworked into a dot.

Edit: I think it´s broken because i think having a mechanic that dictates: get x amount of HP or you´ll 100% get oneshot is bad.

SirMewser · April 2018

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Tell me how a sorc that does not stack shields is supposed to defend itself if said shield was able to be crit.

You´re basing your argument on the arbitrairy situation of sorcs stacking three shields completely ignoring every scenario where only 2 or 1 shield is used.

Also that you´re stating sorcs have the best sustain in the game tells me you have hands down next to no experience with the class - ever since i can think of sorc builds had to incorporate the most sustain into their builds out of all classes.
Sorc in combat sustain is among the worst of all classes only rivaled by DKs (those happen to get buffed in that regard btw).

Enslaved wrote: »

Damage shields should be critable, I agree.

It can be done in a way that will still make them more than viable but also be a counter for shield stacking.

What I suggest is that if you have one shield active at a time, crit chance on a shield should be capped at 10%

On the other hand, if you have 2 shields active at same time, there should be 20% crit chance on shields for the duration of last shield you casted.

With 3 shields this would be 30%.

This change would make no difference in PvE, since there is pretty much no crit chance on mobs, but would make PvP more balanced and less brain dead, especially for groups that base their survivability mostly on shields.

Can we make it in a way that shields then also scale with number of attackers? So when 2 ppl attack someone with shields as a main defense shields take 20% less dmg total 3 people 30% 4 people 40% up to a cap of 6?

One of the reasons shields can not be crit is that they´re a defense that does not scale at all (contrary to block/dodge) with number of attackers.

Name a better non stealth 1vX class damage wise. Sorcs are able to pull all that burst just because shields are so damn effective.

Also, I was speaking of all shields, not only sorc ones. So, igneous shield, barrier, harness/dampen magicka, bone surge, healing ward/ward ally, etc.

Do you do any vet hard mode dungeons ? Is this suggestion coming from PvP only ? Because the Crits inside some of those vet trials wipe everyone without A good tank with shields for everyone . There are other reasons shields are not critable but there's a good reason for the mechanics as others are telling you .

Don't post while drunk, I think you are lost...

schattenkind · April 2018

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

I agree - stacking needs to go.

But so needs the possibility to stalk a target in stealth for an extended amount of time as that also does not feel right imo

It doesn't, but on a bow build it's currently the only way you kill a sorc stacking shields :P

I tend to leave sorcs with shields up alone on Live as chances of bursting them down are very, very slim - but that's not really an option if Summerset launches as is - Rune Cage is death sentence to any medium armor build (especially squishier ones) as it pulls you within execute range with the damage now.

I think rune cage is just broken when combined with meteor + the existing sorc toolkit and hopefully will see rework before going live to work more like petrify/fear.
CC + debuff or at least get it´s dmg reworked into a dot.

Edit: I think it´s broken because i think having a mechanic that dictates: get x amount of HP or you´ll 100% get oneshot is bad.

I totaly agree on that, a debuff or dot wouldve been better, still usefull to sorc but not op in the eyes of other classes.

Feanor · April 2018

@DDuke

Thing is that no one actually asked for damage on Rune Cage. It’s one of these baffling changes, just like the one to Curse back in the day. As I already said, no hard CC should ever do damage.

eso_nya · April 2018

Make all shields in game scale by (max Health + max Mag + max Stam)/3.

To stronk? To weak? -> divide by another different number \o/

Emma_Overload · April 2018

Reloader84 wrote: »

Sorcerers have the best mobility in the game, best ranged damage in the game, and amazing sustain. When you put that together with stackable damage shields, Sorcerers have the best survivability in the game. Additionally, no class can really compete with the potential to 1vx with the odds that a sorcerer has.

Rather than highlight all the falsehoods in this paragraph, I found it easier to just highlight the one thing you said that was TRUE: Yes, Sorcerers have amazing sustain, mostly thanks to Dark Deal/Conversion.

Everything else you said is BOGUS.

Our mobility sucks because we are always rooted and snared up the wazoo, and Bolt Escape does not remove roots and snares, and it does not allow you to outrun a determined gap closer.

Don't even mention "ranged damage" because there is no such thing in ESO PvP. All fights are melee by default thanks to the aforementioned snares, roots and gap closers.

1vX is actually difficult with a Sorc thanks to the poor scalability of damage shields against multiple attackers. Classes with builds that focus on mitigation, blocking and/or dodge rolling do much better.

Also... oh never mind I'm too tired for this argument. Don't @ me!

Bergzorn · April 2018

I would love to see an elaborate rework of the damage shield mechanic. Something with less incentive for shield stacking and max magica stacking. ZOS' path, however, points in the opposite direction.

Maulkin · April 2018

Enslaved wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Tell me how a sorc that does not stack shields is supposed to defend itself if said shield was able to be crit.

You´re basing your argument on the arbitrairy situation of sorcs stacking three shields completely ignoring every scenario where only 2 or 1 shield is used.

Also that you´re stating sorcs have the best sustain in the game tells me you have hands down next to no experience with the class - ever since i can think of sorc builds had to incorporate the most sustain into their builds out of all classes.
Sorc in combat sustain is among the worst of all classes only rivaled by DKs (those happen to get buffed in that regard btw).

Enslaved wrote: »

Damage shields should be critable, I agree.

It can be done in a way that will still make them more than viable but also be a counter for shield stacking.

What I suggest is that if you have one shield active at a time, crit chance on a shield should be capped at 10%

On the other hand, if you have 2 shields active at same time, there should be 20% crit chance on shields for the duration of last shield you casted.

With 3 shields this would be 30%.

This change would make no difference in PvE, since there is pretty much no crit chance on mobs, but would make PvP more balanced and less brain dead, especially for groups that base their survivability mostly on shields.

Can we make it in a way that shields then also scale with number of attackers? So when 2 ppl attack someone with shields as a main defense shields take 20% less dmg total 3 people 30% 4 people 40% up to a cap of 6?

One of the reasons shields can not be crit is that they´re a defense that does not scale at all (contrary to block/dodge) with number of attackers.

Name a better non stealth 1vX class damage wise. Sorcs are able to pull all that burst just because shields are so damn effective.

Also, I was speaking of all shields, not only sorc ones. So, igneous shield, barrier, harness/dampen magicka, bone surge, healing ward/ward ally, etc.

StamWarden.

Next.

Iselin · April 2018

Why the hell is this in the PTS forum when it has nothing to do with 4.0.x?

olsborg · April 2018

Nah, but defile should perhaps debuff shieldstrenght

Bergzorn · April 2018

Most 'simple' suggestions like this have one thing in common. They hurt non shield stackers more than shield stackers.

In my opinion, that is a bad thing.

Maulkin · April 2018

olsborg wrote: »

Nah, but defile should perhaps debuff shieldstrenght

Then the CP system would have a double debuff against Wards; the Befoul and Shattering Blows trees. While only having one buff tree, Bastion.

Meawhile healing has a single debuff tree (Befoul) and 3 buffing trees; Quick Recovery, Blessed and Precise Strikes. On top of it there are two Major/Minor buffs as counter to Minor/Major Defile. Mending and Vitality. Are there any Minor/Major buffs to increase shield size?

So, perhaps not. What year is this where people think shields are currently too strong and the Defile meta needs even more buffing?

Strider__Roshin · April 2018

olsborg wrote: »

Nah, but defile should perhaps debuff shieldstrenght

Well it defiles health regen which was a garbage change since it was mainly troll king that was the problem so yeah why not.

RoamingRiverElk · April 2018

Damage shields should not be critable because it's good to have at least some variance in the game regarding healing, resistances, and crit damage.

Damage shields should not be critable because even as it is, damage is so high that if it was higher compared to damage shields, sorcerers would become underpowered.

WuffyCerulei · April 2018

I don't want my shields to crit. Mainly cuz various skills *cough cough Snipe* hurt a bit, and shields are a good counter. I don't want some scrub bow ganker spam Snipe and eat my shields away with 10K+ crits. And I don't want to be forced to wear inpen and heavy armor like the rest of pvp.

ssewallb14_ESO · April 2018

I'm starting to think these kinds of opinions happen largely because shields have really strong visual feedback in how they absorb damage.

It "feels" OP because you're seeing this gigantic buffer of health suddenly appear on the cast of a skill. There's no way to really "see" the 50k+ of HoT and health recovery a stamina build might be getting in a similar time frame, or the amount of damage completely avoided by dodge, or the 80% mitigation from s+b blocking. You just need the experience to understand these things are happening, to an inexperienced player their target just appears to be tanky.

I'm a bit concerned this effect will see Shields nerfed into uselessness, as HoT+mitigation and HoT+dodging is already a bit stronger than shield based defense. Any more nerfs and open world Mag Sorcs will likely be shelved in favor of Stam builds.