Damages shields should be critable. Change my mind.

Maulkin

Kelces wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

I am not sure what to think, but there is one thing that strikes me as suspicious about the claims that sorcerers are already nerfed to the ground.

So if that's the case, why then is it the only class that doesn't need as many pieces with impenetrable as any other classes do?

Doesn't quite compute...

They're not nerfed to the ground. There's excess QQ. They are in a decent shape, just worse than before. They're just not in a position to receive nerfs, especially ones pertaining to their survivability.

The second statement is wrong. Many people build block builds around Sturdy trait for many different classes. And Impen is still BiS for PvP Sorc, especially so in no-CP content where you can't build for low dodge roll costs anyway.

You know what doesn't compute. Stamblades making threads about nerfing shields and having more counters to block (looking at the thread about Shieldbreaker doing oblivion damage to block holders). That is what does not compute.

Sure, everyone preferably uses impenetrable obviously, but they don't need it necessarely like other classes.

Having to have shieldbreaker to be competitive at all seems to be a bit limiting compared to what choices you have with other classes to go successfully against others.

Other classes don't need it either. I just explained to you how. And if other traits are sub-optimal what's your point exactly, cause I'm not even seeing one.

And the second statement is patently wrong. Plenty of people can do enough damage to burst through wards without shieldbreaker. I don't know where you got the idea that you need ShieldBreaker to be "competitive". Or that shieldbreaker merely makes others "competitive" and not put them at a huge advantage against MagSorc defences.

I just feel your responses put you a bit out of touch with the reality I know.

Biro123

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

Is runecage really hitting that hard on the pts? I'd heard it was around a 5k tooltip (which then obvs gets hit by battle-sprit).

I have no problem with low damage on a cc - but 10k is like frags damage levels...

Maulkin

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

Is runecage really hitting that hard on the pts? I'd heard it was around a 5k tooltip (which then obvs gets hit by battle-sprit).

I have no problem with low damage on a cc - but 10k is like frags damage levels...

It's classic Decimus making a non-viable build just to get a screenshot to back up his point.

The tooltip has not changed from live. It's whatever tooltip you currently have for it with your build.

DDuke

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

10 tooltip rune cage doesn't exist.

45.5k magicka and 2750 spell damage is has a rune cage tooltip close to 8k.

Hold my beer.

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

61k magicka gives 29k dmg shields stacked. That is a lie

Is it? Perhaps.

I only get 36,5k. I'll admit I might've rounded it up a little.


40k is probably doable though if you get more CPs into Bastion and/or Warhorn, or just use different food with more magicka (PTS templates only get Witchmother's unfortunately...).


^
You can see I'm in Cyrodiil.

You are not running a viable build.

You can go full damage on any build and say "this class is OP"

Post a screen of your buff and character sheet, don't max a stats and say other damage is OP.

JUST LOOK AT YOUR BARS this isn't serious, you don't even have a pure damage skill

This isn't fair with yourself.

Also, PTS template have acces to other food than wichmother.

@Derra

Hey, you're the one who said 10k tooltip rune cage doesn't exist.

That said, let me clarify that setup: I was stacking max magicka to see how people on PTS get those 30-40k shield stacks & decided to check the Rune Cage tooltip with that same setup.

You can see all buffs (just Major Sorcery) I have below my health bar on the screenshot.

If I were to min-max, I'd probably go for quite a lot less magicka & a lot more spell damage (or alternatively something like Elegant to boost up Overloads instead).

Pretty much every build I create regardless of class & whether it's stamina or magicka operates at close to maximum damage & minimum sustain, that's how I play this game. Those builds tend to be viable, as evidenced by the content on my channel.

Minalan wrote: »

You’ve got a *triple* shield stack, and it looks like you’re using the new block shield passive, so that’s four. What does that last for, two seconds before they all start falling off? Lol. How long can you keep that up with a stamina character beating on them? I think you’re out of Magicka in about two refreshes.

Those shields are up whenever you need them vs burst oriented builds, it takes the normal two GCDs to get them all up since you activate Reinforced & Psijic shield by simply blocking.

Minalan wrote: »

So... Nice, but you’re still not ‘stacking’ more shields per second than can be pulled off with a simple heavy/skill or light/skill.

Try that in a real fight:
Hardened ward -> 12K. Heavy/dizzy. Gone

Are you telling me your Dizzying Swing has 24k tooltip & the sorcerer has zero defensive CPs allocated? Because that's the only way Dizzying Swing goes 1-1 with Hardened Ward.

Minalan wrote: »

Harness -> 8K Dizzy/LA. You just took health damage, the crit overflowed your tiny shield.

...and once again you'd need 16k Dizzying tooltip & zero defensive CPs on the sorcerer.

I can get 21k tooltip with 5x Automaton 5x Sword Singer 1x Kena 1x Veli, and that's still not enough to go 1-1 with the shield after you factor in defensive CPs.

Minalan wrote: »

Healing ward -> someone else nearby just took it. You’re dead!

Aha, so you play with zero defensive CPs, no impen & don't know how to block? Good to know.

Because that's the only way you die in those scenarios.

Source: got a light armor destro/resto mDK with Healing Ward based defense

Minalan wrote: »

PS: you have 10K stam. You’re not breaking a second or third stun. And you’re definitely not dodge rolling.

Actually, with 56 points into Warlord your Break Free cost is 4320.

This means CC breaking exactly every 7 seconds (worst case scenario, highly unlikely) would require 1234 stamina regen. Fortunately, Daedric Protection+Major Endurance (tri-pot) means you've already got 800 regen even as non-vampire sorcerer, and the potion itself is worth 337 "regen" (7582/45).

You should never ever run out of stamina to CC break if you manage your resources properly.

Source: never used a single stam regen enchant/set bonus/mundus/whatever on any of my 5 magicka characters.

Minalan wrote: »

Shields are fine, and Sorcs are the most ‘balanced’ into the dirt since the game came out. If you’re not killing them now by the score, then you have my sympathies for being terrible at the game.

Shields aren't fine, not on Live & not on PTS.

On Live they're tolerable, because sorcs also aren't getting free kills on medium armor builds who know how to play.

On PTS this isn't the case, Rune Cage combos can take out any non-tank build without anything you can do about it.

So why am I talking about shields? Well, if sorcs can throw their 10k undodgeable unblockable 28m range CCs at me to land with Overload/Frag/Curse/Wrath/whatever, then I'd very much like to be able to get free kills on them as well if I land my combo. That's only fair, no?

DDuke

Maulkin wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

Is runecage really hitting that hard on the pts? I'd heard it was around a 5k tooltip (which then obvs gets hit by battle-sprit).

I have no problem with low damage on a cc - but 10k is like frags damage levels...

It's classic Decimus making a non-viable build just to get a screenshot to back up his point.

The tooltip has not changed from live. It's whatever tooltip you currently have for it with your build.

Non-meta=/=non-viable.

I believe I've demonstrated this multiple times over the past 4 years.


Maybe I'm giving an extreme example, but even builds with less damage can kill non-tank builds easily when they combo the Rune Cage damage with other sources of burst that are guaranteed to land when you CC someone at the right time.


It's like the undodgeable Power Lashes all over again... except worse, since these can't even be outranged or blocked & come from a class with strong execute potential.

Lord-Otto

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

Is runecage really hitting that hard on the pts? I'd heard it was around a 5k tooltip (which then obvs gets hit by battle-sprit).

I have no problem with low damage on a cc - but 10k is like frags damage levels...

My non-PTS Cage tooltip equals my Master Reach's, about 9k unbuffed. I saw no damage modification in the netch potes, so...

Biro123

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

Is runecage really hitting that hard on the pts? I'd heard it was around a 5k tooltip (which then obvs gets hit by battle-sprit).

I have no problem with low damage on a cc - but 10k is like frags damage levels...

My non-PTS Cage tooltip equals my Master Reach's, about 9k unbuffed. I saw no damage modification in the netch potes, so...

Mines at 6.5k unbuffed with what I'm currently experimenting with - that's on the back-bar though with lower mag than the front(no inner light). I still don't know how you can get your dmg tooltips so high with your build.

DDuke

Biro123 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

Is runecage really hitting that hard on the pts? I'd heard it was around a 5k tooltip (which then obvs gets hit by battle-sprit).

I have no problem with low damage on a cc - but 10k is like frags damage levels...

My non-PTS Cage tooltip equals my Master Reach's, about 9k unbuffed. I saw no damage modification in the netch potes, so...

Mines at 6.5k unbuffed with what I'm currently experimenting with - that's on the back-bar though with lower mag than the front(no inner light). I still don't know how you can get your dmg tooltips so high with your build.

I get 9252 tooltip on Overload Bar with 5x Elegant 5x Necropotence 2x Slimecraw 7 Impen 73 Master-at-Arms 64 Elemental Expert 3x Spell Dmg Jewelry (Arcane), Witchmother food & Mage Mundus.


There's many ways to increase the tooltip.

Juhasow

Daus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Nah, but defile should perhaps debuff shieldstrenght

Well it defiles health regen which was a garbage change since it was mainly troll king that was the problem so yeah why not.

If defile affected shield strength, then you’d have to make vitality or mending do the same. In the end you would end up making most shields a ton stronger.

Shields aren’t in a good place. Every patch damage has been creeping up while shields haven’t. A sorc usually stacks two shields. 8K or so harness and 12K hardened ward.

A sorc can only cast one per second, and every class is capable of weaving light/heavy attacks and doing a LOT more than that amount of damage per second without a critical hit.

Remember shields have no armor value, and any ‘bleed through’ damage can and does crit. So if you land a heavy attack/skill for 6K/8K after a sorc casts a 12K Ward.. 2K bleeds through to health, hits light armor, crits, and probably takes 4K health off.

Is health regen affected by mending or vitality? If not then your argument falls flat. If so then it has merit.

Actually @Daus it is Your argument which have no sense at all. Does shields have multiple sources of powerfull percentage increases similar to what health recovery have ? Does health regen have a cost and requires You to cast it constantly ? This was main reason why health recovery recived nerf that defiles affects it , because with percentage bonuses You can boost it up by even over 100% so at some point people were getting higher health recovery ticks then for example Vigor crit heals. There is much more percentage bonuses that boost Your health recovery then those that boost Your healing and most of them is much easier obtainable.

Biro123

DDuke wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

Is runecage really hitting that hard on the pts? I'd heard it was around a 5k tooltip (which then obvs gets hit by battle-sprit).

I have no problem with low damage on a cc - but 10k is like frags damage levels...

My non-PTS Cage tooltip equals my Master Reach's, about 9k unbuffed. I saw no damage modification in the netch potes, so...

Mines at 6.5k unbuffed with what I'm currently experimenting with - that's on the back-bar though with lower mag than the front(no inner light). I still don't know how you can get your dmg tooltips so high with your build.

I get 9252 tooltip on Overload Bar with 5x Elegant 5x Necropotence 2x Slimecraw 7 Impen 73 Master-at-Arms 64 Elemental Expert 3x Spell Dmg Jewelry (Arcane), Witchmother food & Mage Mundus.


There's many ways to increase the tooltip.

That sustain though.... Is that an unbuffed figure? no major sorc, no dmg glyph procs etc..?

I'm on Necropotence/Shacklebreaker/1 magika monster - mage mundus, max mag/recov drink 1x spelldmg jewel, 1x cost, 1x recov. Seems like a big difference since the elegant 5-piece won't help on it.

DDuke

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

Is runecage really hitting that hard on the pts? I'd heard it was around a 5k tooltip (which then obvs gets hit by battle-sprit).

I have no problem with low damage on a cc - but 10k is like frags damage levels...

My non-PTS Cage tooltip equals my Master Reach's, about 9k unbuffed. I saw no damage modification in the netch potes, so...

Mines at 6.5k unbuffed with what I'm currently experimenting with - that's on the back-bar though with lower mag than the front(no inner light). I still don't know how you can get your dmg tooltips so high with your build.

I get 9252 tooltip on Overload Bar with 5x Elegant 5x Necropotence 2x Slimecraw 7 Impen 73 Master-at-Arms 64 Elemental Expert 3x Spell Dmg Jewelry (Arcane), Witchmother food & Mage Mundus.


There's many ways to increase the tooltip.

That sustain though....

Yeah, not a big fan of it - on any build

Atleast on sorc I've got 50k magicka time window to do this to someone:


...or streak away & Meditate to full resources if that fails.


For reference, Asylum Snipe does 41 923 Crit Damage on that dummy.

Biro123

DDuke wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

Is runecage really hitting that hard on the pts? I'd heard it was around a 5k tooltip (which then obvs gets hit by battle-sprit).

I have no problem with low damage on a cc - but 10k is like frags damage levels...

My non-PTS Cage tooltip equals my Master Reach's, about 9k unbuffed. I saw no damage modification in the netch potes, so...

Mines at 6.5k unbuffed with what I'm currently experimenting with - that's on the back-bar though with lower mag than the front(no inner light). I still don't know how you can get your dmg tooltips so high with your build.

I get 9252 tooltip on Overload Bar with 5x Elegant 5x Necropotence 2x Slimecraw 7 Impen 73 Master-at-Arms 64 Elemental Expert 3x Spell Dmg Jewelry (Arcane), Witchmother food & Mage Mundus.


There's many ways to increase the tooltip.

That sustain though....

Yeah, not a big fan of it - on any build

Atleast on sorc I've got 50k magicka time window to do this to someone:


...or streak away & Meditate to full resources if that fails.


For reference, Asylum Snipe does 41 923 Crit Damage on that dummy.

I may have to start running sword and board for a bit of reflecty goodness!

Feanor

That’s only because Overload shouldn’t be included in the LA buffs. It certainly will get fixed. No need to panic yet.

Marginis

Letting alone any factoring of balance in the equation, I like that shields have unique attributes to them, and aren't just more health (we already have that). Giving shields the upside of being crit proof while having them last only a few seconds makes them have their own "personality". Getting rid of that, making them just like temporary extra health (again, something we already have) jus eliminates variety and customization. This doesn't seem to be the answer. I mean, we could just make.all abilities just like extra auto attacks, but that wouldn't be very fun now would it?

As far as balance goes, it could almost always use at least some amount of tweaking, but balancing does not need to mean taking away unique characteristics of abilities.

Biro123

Marginis wrote: »

Letting alone any factoring of balance in the equation, I like that shields have unique attributes to them, and aren't just more health (we already have that). Giving shields the upside of being crit proof while having them last only a few seconds makes them have their own "personality". Getting rid of that, making them just like temporary extra health (again, something we already have) jus eliminates variety and customization. This doesn't seem to be the answer. I mean, we could just make.all abilities just like extra auto attacks, but that wouldn't be very fun now would it?

As far as balance goes, it could almost always use at least some amount of tweaking, but balancing does not need to mean taking away unique characteristics of abilities.

I couldn't agree more. Block/dodge/heals/shields all work very differently - with different strengths/weaknesses.

Once you start down the path of making shields crittable/crit/have resits etc... they end up with exactly the same mechanics as healing - except pro-active rather than reactive.
4 different survival mechanisms then effectively becomes 3.. I'd rather have the diversity than convergence.

The_Brosteen

A nerf sorcs thread?

WHAT YEAR IS IT

Juhasow

Feanor wrote: »

That’s only because Overload shouldn’t be included in the LA buffs. It certainly will get fixed. No need to panic yet.

Umm are You sure of that ? Because Overload light and heavy attacks works like that since game release and outlasted many threads about that. There were even meta builds based on that feature. The only thing that zenimax did to lower Overload effectiveness was reducing max ultimate stack from 1000 down to 500. The thing is You cannot weave real light attacks or skills between each overload light attack and basicly You turn Your fists into weapon so this technically are light and heavy attacks.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

Is runecage really hitting that hard on the pts? I'd heard it was around a 5k tooltip (which then obvs gets hit by battle-sprit).

I have no problem with low damage on a cc - but 10k is like frags damage levels...

My non-PTS Cage tooltip equals my Master Reach's, about 9k unbuffed. I saw no damage modification in the netch potes, so...

Mines at 6.5k unbuffed with what I'm currently experimenting with - that's on the back-bar though with lower mag than the front(no inner light). I still don't know how you can get your dmg tooltips so high with your build.

I get 9252 tooltip on Overload Bar with 5x Elegant 5x Necropotence 2x Slimecraw 7 Impen 73 Master-at-Arms 64 Elemental Expert 3x Spell Dmg Jewelry (Arcane), Witchmother food & Mage Mundus.


There's many ways to increase the tooltip.

That sustain though....

Yeah, not a big fan of it - on any build

Atleast on sorc I've got 50k magicka time window to do this to someone:


...or streak away & Meditate to full resources if that fails.


For reference, Asylum Snipe does 41 923 Crit Damage on that dummy.

I already hit 48k overloads back in orsinium.

Also overload LAs simply should not eglible for the new empower - plain and simple.

Feanor

As I understand currently Overload light attacks are affected by the damage buff they gave to any light attack. Of course you could always hit 20k OL in PvP. That required a specific gank setup and a lucky crit. It shouldn’t be the standard. But apparently it is now.

Minalan

Enslaved wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

10 tooltip rune cage doesn't exist.

45.5k magicka and 2750 spell damage is has a rune cage tooltip close to 8k.

Hold my beer.

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

61k magicka gives 29k dmg shields stacked. That is a lie

Is it? Perhaps.

I only get 36,5k. I'll admit I might've rounded it up a little.


40k is probably doable though if you get more CPs into Bastion and/or Warhorn, or just use different food with more magicka (PTS templates only get Witchmother's unfortunately...).


^
You can see I'm in Cyrodiil.

You’ve got a *triple* shield stack, and it looks like you’re using the new block shield passive, so that’s four. What does that last for, two seconds before they all start falling off? Lol. How long can you keep that up with a stamina character beating on them? I think you’re out of Magicka in about two refreshes.

So... Nice, but you’re still not ‘stacking’ more shields per second than can be pulled off with a simple heavy/skill or light/skill.

Try that in a real fight:
Hardened ward -> 12K. Heavy/dizzy. Gone
Harness -> 8K Dizzy/LA. You just took health damage, the crit overflowed your tiny shield.
Healing ward -> someone else nearby just took it. You’re dead!

PS: you have 10K stam. You’re not breaking a second or third stun. And you’re definitely not dodge rolling.

Shields are fine, and Sorcs are the most ‘balanced’ into the dirt since the game came out. If you’re not killing them now by the score, then you have my sympathies for being terrible at the game.

If you are hit that easy with dizzying at 2018, you should consider going Wrothgar, jumping off cliff, uninstalling game, deleting system 32 and 68 and go apply for life in a monastery.

And just where and how is a 10K stamina Sorc build going to avoid it?

You’re not blocking it with 10K stamina
You’re not dodge rolling
You’re not running way, not with leash and gap closers. The stamina guy has 5500 weapon damage, loads of stamina and a speed pot.

If you make that bad a build you’re going to be hit with it, but if you really want to be hopelessly autism-level pedantic about it, you could replace dizzy swing with nearly anything that does a measly 8K.

Minalan

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

10 tooltip rune cage doesn't exist.

45.5k magicka and 2750 spell damage is has a rune cage tooltip close to 8k.

Hold my beer.

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think shields being uncrittable is the main issue - getting through one shield is still very much doable if you build for high burst damage.

However, when you have an opponent that is aware of you and is stacking multiple shields and you're playing a burst oriented build that doesn't really deal sustained damage, you have a pretty insurmountable obstacle and that doesn't feel right.


I honestly didn't care about that pre-patch, but now that Sorcerers can pretty much one shot a medium armor build at will thanks to 10k tooltip Rune Cages, increased light attack dmg etc, I'd very much like to be able to do the same without having to stalk them in stealth until they forget to keep both shields up.

If I build almost entirely around a burst combo, that burst combo should hurt when it hits the target and shouldn't just get absorbed by 40k worth of dmg shields.


So yeah, shield stacking needs to go - or needs to become unsustainable at the very least.

61k magicka gives 29k dmg shields stacked. That is a lie

Is it? Perhaps.

I only get 36,5k. I'll admit I might've rounded it up a little.


40k is probably doable though if you get more CPs into Bastion and/or Warhorn, or just use different food with more magicka (PTS templates only get Witchmother's unfortunately...).


^
You can see I'm in Cyrodiil.

You are not running a viable build.

You can go full damage on any build and say "this class is OP"

Post a screen of your buff and character sheet, don't max a stats and say other damage is OP.

JUST LOOK AT YOUR BARS this isn't serious, you don't even have a pure damage skill

This isn't fair with yourself.

Also, PTS template have acces to other food than wichmother.

@Derra

Hey, you're the one who said 10k tooltip rune cage doesn't exist.

That said, let me clarify that setup: I was stacking max magicka to see how people on PTS get those 30-40k shield stacks & decided to check the Rune Cage tooltip with that same setup.

You can see all buffs (just Major Sorcery) I have below my health bar on the screenshot.

If I were to min-max, I'd probably go for quite a lot less magicka & a lot more spell damage (or alternatively something like Elegant to boost up Overloads instead).

Pretty much every build I create regardless of class & whether it's stamina or magicka operates at close to maximum damage & minimum sustain, that's how I play this game. Those builds tend to be viable, as evidenced by the content on my channel.

Minalan wrote: »

You’ve got a *triple* shield stack, and it looks like you’re using the new block shield passive, so that’s four. What does that last for, two seconds before they all start falling off? Lol. How long can you keep that up with a stamina character beating on them? I think you’re out of Magicka in about two refreshes.

Those shields are up whenever you need them vs burst oriented builds, it takes the normal two GCDs to get them all up since you activate Reinforced & Psijic shield by simply blocking.

Minalan wrote: »

So... Nice, but you’re still not ‘stacking’ more shields per second than can be pulled off with a simple heavy/skill or light/skill.

Try that in a real fight:
Hardened ward -> 12K. Heavy/dizzy. Gone

Are you telling me your Dizzying Swing has 24k tooltip & the sorcerer has zero defensive CPs allocated? Because that's the only way Dizzying Swing goes 1-1 with Hardened Ward.

Minalan wrote: »

Harness -> 8K Dizzy/LA. You just took health damage, the crit overflowed your tiny shield.

...and once again you'd need 16k Dizzying tooltip & zero defensive CPs on the sorcerer.

I can get 21k tooltip with 5x Automaton 5x Sword Singer 1x Kena 1x Veli, and that's still not enough to go 1-1 with the shield after you factor in defensive CPs.

Minalan wrote: »

Healing ward -> someone else nearby just took it. You’re dead!

Aha, so you play with zero defensive CPs, no impen & don't know how to block? Good to know.

Because that's the only way you die in those scenarios.

Source: got a light armor destro/resto mDK with Healing Ward based defense

Minalan wrote: »

PS: you have 10K stam. You’re not breaking a second or third stun. And you’re definitely not dodge rolling.

Actually, with 56 points into Warlord your Break Free cost is 4320.

This means CC breaking exactly every 7 seconds (worst case scenario, highly unlikely) would require 1234 stamina regen. Fortunately, Daedric Protection+Major Endurance (tri-pot) means you've already got 800 regen even as non-vampire sorcerer, and the potion itself is worth 337 "regen" (7582/45).

You should never ever run out of stamina to CC break if you manage your resources properly.

Source: never used a single stam regen enchant/set bonus/mundus/whatever on any of my 5 magicka characters.

Minalan wrote: »

Shields are fine, and Sorcs are the most ‘balanced’ into the dirt since the game came out. If you’re not killing them now by the score, then you have my sympathies for being terrible at the game.

Shields aren't fine, not on Live & not on PTS.

On Live they're tolerable, because sorcs also aren't getting free kills on medium armor builds who know how to play.

On PTS this isn't the case, Rune Cage combos can take out any non-tank build without anything you can do about it.

So why am I talking about shields? Well, if sorcs can throw their 10k undodgeable unblockable 28m range CCs at me to land with Overload/Frag/Curse/Wrath/whatever, then I'd very much like to be able to get free kills on them as well if I land my combo. That's only fair, no?

First off, in every case I assumed the attack was woven with a light or heavy. Are you honestly telling me you can’t hit that hard with surprise attack and an AC heavy? Or with a woven light attack after an incap? You’ve got 5500+ weapon damage this patch easy, shields don’t have any armor, you have offensive CP to counter any defensive CP I have, and light attacks just got buffed.

Second off, it was nightblade whining and crying that got crystal frags nerfed to begin with. It was our one counter to your class and it was completely removed. You’ve had two patches of free Sorc AP, now it’s over and you want to flood the forums with tears.

Eat the new cage, because I’m going to shove it so far down every nightblade throat I hope you all choke on it.

Septimus_Magna

Galarthor wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I agree that shields shouldnt negate all the crit hit chance and crit hit dmg of the attacker.
On the other side, the spell crit of the caster shouldnt be ignored if attacks can crit on shields.

Shield size could scale up with spell crit, so 50% spell crit gives 25% larger shield for example.
The crit hit dmg modifier is usually higher than 150% so this favors the attacker.

Shields that scale off health could have a special effect that prevents the attacker from critically striking.

And what good will that do? We are having a psychological / display issue not a balancing one.

Your suggestion effectively increases the damage any build that utilizes shields takes by at least 20% (based on a crit factor of atleast 150%). Which is on top of the already increased damage to shields due to the lack of mitigation through resistances.

Why don't we increase damage by 20% across the board ... just to be fair ... and not just punish certain builds while massively buffing others. There will also be an additional penalty necessary for relative damage mitigation abilities as those will effectively be buffed if damage is increased.

Also, you want the one shield that is applied to multiple people at the same time to remain crit immune? That seems rather biased and unbalanced.

The point is that currently not only crit rating but also crit dmg is negated by shields. You get 100% pen in return but thats usually not a fair trade off. Allowing crits on shield and scaling shields off the casters spell crit ensures that the attackers increased crit dmg has an effect. Maybe the shield scaling should be increased but that can only be determined while testing.

Shields that scale off health are generally very small in Cyrodiil, it generally takes one or two (non-crit) hits to break Igneous Shield for example. Allowing crits on such small shields would make them way too weak. Shields are good because they protect against burst, allowing high burst on small dmg shields beats that purpose. The crit resist could only be applied to the caster so it doesnt provide crit resist for 6 players at once.