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To people who enjoy speedrunning...
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Aesthier✭✭✭✭✭And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.11 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.
You learn how to play your class at a competitive level by completing veteran dungeons. Normals are so easy that they can be soloed around CP 200 (and probably sooner, for some people). I only truly understood how to make the most out of my roles when playing non-faceroll content, and by challenging myself to solo normal content when I was low CP.
0 -
Aesthier✭✭✭✭✭And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.
You learn how to play your class at a competitive level by completing veteran dungeons. Normals are so easy that they can be soloed around CP 200 (and probably sooner, for some people). I only truly understood how to make the most out of my roles when playing non-faceroll content, and by challenging myself to solo normal content when I was low CP.
I was simply making a point.
To many people are complaining that "unskilled" players show up in vet groups and that players should learn in dungeons not in vet dungeons how to play.
Yet you are saying dungeons are to easy so why waste time learning there....
Which leads directly to my point.
That it is laughably contradictory.Edited by Aesthier on April 23, 2018 1:31PM7 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.
You learn how to play your class at a competitive level by completing veteran dungeons. Normals are so easy that they can be soloed around CP 200 (and probably sooner, for some people). I only truly understood how to make the most out of my roles when playing non-faceroll content, and by challenging myself to solo normal content when I was low CP.
I was simply making a point.
To many people are complaining that "unskilled" players show up in vet groups and that players should learn in dungeons not in vet dungeons how to play.
Yet you are saying dungeons are to easy so why waste time learning there....
Which leads directly to my point.
That it is laughably contradictory.
One simply CAN’T become “skilled” by completing normal dungeons with a full group as the dungeons were “intended” to be completed. The mobs do barely any damage, meaning that you barely have to slot any healing skills as a healer. Because the mobs do barely any damage, tanks can get away with slotting a taunt and going full DPS. Damage dealers who are doing proper rotations with appropriate gear will barely have time to get off a full rotation on a trash pull, as everything dies so quickly. If you want to learn how to DPS while also being able to survive, you need to (1) practice on a target dummy, and (2) get comfortable with soloing normal dungeons. If you want to learn how to tank or heal, you first have to gear yourself appropriately and practice with people who know that you’re learning (e.g. guild mates) and are able to give tips. YOLO pugging a vet dungeon without appropriate practice is a sure fire way to annoy other players. And again, you’re not going to get adequate practice for vet content if you’re running normal dungeons with a full group.
Edited by Aurielle on April 23, 2018 1:40PM1 -
Ozstryker✭✭✭✭The golden rule when driving.... you're gunna believe anyone going faster than you is a maniac, anyone going slower is an idiot, so go with the flow and arrive alive!!And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.
You learn how to play your class at a competitive level by completing veteran dungeons. Normals are so easy that they can be soloed around CP 200 (and probably sooner, for some people). I only truly understood how to make the most out of my roles when playing non-faceroll content, and by challenging myself to solo normal content when I was low CP.
I was simply making a point.
To many people are complaining that "unskilled" players show up in vet groups and that players should learn in dungeons not in vet dungeons how to play.
Yet you are saying dungeons are to easy so why waste time learning there....
Which leads directly to my point.
That it is laughably contradictory.
One simply CAN’T become “skilled” by completing normal dungeons with a full group as the dungeons were “intended” to be completed. The mobs do barely any damage, meaning that you barely have to slot any healing skills as a healer. Because the mobs do barely any damage, tanks can get away with slotting a taunt and going full DPS. Damage dealers who are doing proper rotations with appropriate gear will barely have time to get off a full rotation on a trash pull, as everything dies so quickly. If you want to learn how to DPS while also being able to survive, you need to (1) practice on a target dummy, and (2) get comfortable with soloing normal dungeons. If you want to learn how to tank or heal, you first have to gear yourself appropriately and practice with people who know that you’re learning (e.g. guild mates) and are able to give tips. YOLO pugging a vet dungeon without appropriate practice is a sure fire way to annoy other players. And again, you’re not going to get adequate practice for vet content if you’re running normal dungeons with a full group.
Soooo normal dungeons are for solo only now?4 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.
You learn how to play your class at a competitive level by completing veteran dungeons. Normals are so easy that they can be soloed around CP 200 (and probably sooner, for some people). I only truly understood how to make the most out of my roles when playing non-faceroll content, and by challenging myself to solo normal content when I was low CP.
I was simply making a point.
To many people are complaining that "unskilled" players show up in vet groups and that players should learn in dungeons not in vet dungeons how to play.
Yet you are saying dungeons are to easy so why waste time learning there....
Which leads directly to my point.
That it is laughably contradictory.
One simply CAN’T become “skilled” by completing normal dungeons with a full group as the dungeons were “intended” to be completed. The mobs do barely any damage, meaning that you barely have to slot any healing skills as a healer. Because the mobs do barely any damage, tanks can get away with slotting a taunt and going full DPS. Damage dealers who are doing proper rotations with appropriate gear will barely have time to get off a full rotation on a trash pull, as everything dies so quickly. If you want to learn how to DPS while also being able to survive, you need to (1) practice on a target dummy, and (2) get comfortable with soloing normal dungeons. If you want to learn how to tank or heal, you first have to gear yourself appropriately and practice with people who know that you’re learning (e.g. guild mates) and are able to give tips. YOLO pugging a vet dungeon without appropriate practice is a sure fire way to annoy other players. And again, you’re not going to get adequate practice for vet content if you’re running normal dungeons with a full group.
Soooo normal dungeons are for solo only now?
Of course not. What I’m saying is that they’re not adequate preparation for vet dungeons. If you learn how to deal damage solely by doing normals (without spending time practicing your rotation or challenging yourself to soloing certain content), then you’re probably doing max 10k DPS, which is subpar for vet dungeons. If you learn how to tank or heal in normal dungeons, you’re not going to be even remotely adequately prepared for the harder vet HM dungeons.
Edited by Aurielle on April 23, 2018 1:58PM0 -
Juju_beans✭✭✭✭✭
✭And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.
You learn how to play your class at a competitive level by completing veteran dungeons. Normals are so easy that they can be soloed around CP 200 (and probably sooner, for some people). I only truly understood how to make the most out of my roles when playing non-faceroll content, and by challenging myself to solo normal content when I was low CP.
I was simply making a point.
To many people are complaining that "unskilled" players show up in vet groups and that players should learn in dungeons not in vet dungeons how to play.
Yet you are saying dungeons are to easy so why waste time learning there....
Which leads directly to my point.
That it is laughably contradictory.
One simply CAN’T become “skilled” by completing normal dungeons with a full group as the dungeons were “intended” to be completed. The mobs do barely any damage, meaning that you barely have to slot any healing skills as a healer. Because the mobs do barely any damage, tanks can get away with slotting a taunt and going full DPS. Damage dealers who are doing proper rotations with appropriate gear will barely have time to get off a full rotation on a trash pull, as everything dies so quickly. If you want to learn how to DPS while also being able to survive, you need to (1) practice on a target dummy, and (2) get comfortable with soloing normal dungeons. If you want to learn how to tank or heal, you first have to gear yourself appropriately and practice with people who know that you’re learning (e.g. guild mates) and are able to give tips. YOLO pugging a vet dungeon without appropriate practice is a sure fire way to annoy other players. And again, you’re not going to get adequate practice for vet content if you’re running normal dungeons with a full group.
Soooo normal dungeons are for solo only now?
Of course not. What I’m saying is that they’re not adequate preparation for vet dungeons. If you learn how to deal damage solely by doing normals (without spending time practicing your rotation or challenging yourself to soloing certain content), then you’re probably doing max 10k DPS, which is subpar for vet dungeons. If you learn how to tank or heal in normal dungeons, you’re not going to be even remotely adequately prepared for the harder vet HM dungeons.
They are no preparation at all if 3 people are just sprinting to follow that speed runner that's taking everything out by themselves.
9 -
Kalgert✭✭✭✭✭And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.
You learn how to play your class at a competitive level by completing veteran dungeons. Normals are so easy that they can be soloed around CP 200 (and probably sooner, for some people). I only truly understood how to make the most out of my roles when playing non-faceroll content, and by challenging myself to solo normal content when I was low CP.
I was simply making a point.
To many people are complaining that "unskilled" players show up in vet groups and that players should learn in dungeons not in vet dungeons how to play.
Yet you are saying dungeons are to easy so why waste time learning there....
Which leads directly to my point.
That it is laughably contradictory.
One simply CAN’T become “skilled” by completing normal dungeons with a full group as the dungeons were “intended” to be completed. The mobs do barely any damage, meaning that you barely have to slot any healing skills as a healer. Because the mobs do barely any damage, tanks can get away with slotting a taunt and going full DPS. Damage dealers who are doing proper rotations with appropriate gear will barely have time to get off a full rotation on a trash pull, as everything dies so quickly. If you want to learn how to DPS while also being able to survive, you need to (1) practice on a target dummy, and (2) get comfortable with soloing normal dungeons. If you want to learn how to tank or heal, you first have to gear yourself appropriately and practice with people who know that you’re learning (e.g. guild mates) and are able to give tips. YOLO pugging a vet dungeon without appropriate practice is a sure fire way to annoy other players. And again, you’re not going to get adequate practice for vet content if you’re running normal dungeons with a full group.
Soooo normal dungeons are for solo only now?
Of course not. What I’m saying is that they’re not adequate preparation for vet dungeons. If you learn how to deal damage solely by doing normals (without spending time practicing your rotation or challenging yourself to soloing certain content), then you’re probably doing max 10k DPS, which is subpar for vet dungeons. If you learn how to tank or heal in normal dungeons, you’re not going to be even remotely adequately prepared for the harder vet HM dungeons.
DPS is a dung-shoot, yes.
But don't make it out like tanking and healing are anything equally difficult to master in regards to performance. As a tank, you need high health and defenses, plus a sense of protection to your fellow man. As a Healer, you need healing abilities, means to buff your party and basically keep people alive.0 -
Aesthier✭✭✭✭✭And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.
You learn how to play your class at a competitive level by completing veteran dungeons. Normals are so easy that they can be soloed around CP 200 (and probably sooner, for some people). I only truly understood how to make the most out of my roles when playing non-faceroll content, and by challenging myself to solo normal content when I was low CP.
I was simply making a point.
To many people are complaining that "unskilled" players show up in vet groups and that players should learn in dungeons not in vet dungeons how to play.
Yet you are saying dungeons are to easy so why waste time learning there....
Which leads directly to my point.
That it is laughably contradictory.
One simply CAN’T...
The point I was trying to make is flying comepletely by you.
My POINT is
One half of the community is saying "STAY OUT OF VETS GO LEARN IN NORMALS"
And the other half is saying "NORMALS IS FOR SPEED NOT LEARNING."
That was it nothing else.
But since you want to go there...
New players; it is as if you all completely forget that new players still come into this game.
They do not have the CP nor the experience so YES for them learning in normals is a reality no matter how much you cry otherwise.
Will that properly prepare them for VET? No it will not however they need normals to get the feel for what it is like playing in a group.
I understand that people who have played the game for a while get really sick of dealing with those who want to quest or learn in places that should be easy peasy run fest for those who have any experience whatsoever. But at the pure fact of it is..
If you use group finder you will get opposite playstyles in your groups. Players going to fast for you? it happens, don't like t don't use group finder. Players who don't know how to play getting in your vets? It happens if you don't like it don't use group finder.
At the end of the day the group tool is for everyone and that means everyone has an equal right to use it.
If you can't handle that then do what you always tell other people to do and find a guild to go with you.
Edited by Aesthier on April 23, 2018 2:26PM10 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.
You learn how to play your class at a competitive level by completing veteran dungeons. Normals are so easy that they can be soloed around CP 200 (and probably sooner, for some people). I only truly understood how to make the most out of my roles when playing non-faceroll content, and by challenging myself to solo normal content when I was low CP.
I was simply making a point.
To many people are complaining that "unskilled" players show up in vet groups and that players should learn in dungeons not in vet dungeons how to play.
Yet you are saying dungeons are to easy so why waste time learning there....
Which leads directly to my point.
That it is laughably contradictory.
One simply CAN’T become “skilled” by completing normal dungeons with a full group as the dungeons were “intended” to be completed. The mobs do barely any damage, meaning that you barely have to slot any healing skills as a healer. Because the mobs do barely any damage, tanks can get away with slotting a taunt and going full DPS. Damage dealers who are doing proper rotations with appropriate gear will barely have time to get off a full rotation on a trash pull, as everything dies so quickly. If you want to learn how to DPS while also being able to survive, you need to (1) practice on a target dummy, and (2) get comfortable with soloing normal dungeons. If you want to learn how to tank or heal, you first have to gear yourself appropriately and practice with people who know that you’re learning (e.g. guild mates) and are able to give tips. YOLO pugging a vet dungeon without appropriate practice is a sure fire way to annoy other players. And again, you’re not going to get adequate practice for vet content if you’re running normal dungeons with a full group.
Soooo normal dungeons are for solo only now?
Of course not. What I’m saying is that they’re not adequate preparation for vet dungeons. If you learn how to deal damage solely by doing normals (without spending time practicing your rotation or challenging yourself to soloing certain content), then you’re probably doing max 10k DPS, which is subpar for vet dungeons. If you learn how to tank or heal in normal dungeons, you’re not going to be even remotely adequately prepared for the harder vet HM dungeons.
DPS is a dung-shoot, yes.
But don't make it out like tanking and healing are anything equally difficult to master in regards to performance. As a tank, you need high health and defenses, plus a sense of protection to your fellow man. As a Healer, you need healing abilities, means to buff your party and basically keep people alive.
As a tank you have to learn to have as little "high health and defenses" as possible in favor of support. There is not enough damage in normals to even require a tank. A one shot mechaninc from vet leaves you with 40% in normal. Same with healers. Average vigor will heal you through any add pack on normal.0 -
Kalgert✭✭✭✭✭And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.
You learn how to play your class at a competitive level by completing veteran dungeons. Normals are so easy that they can be soloed around CP 200 (and probably sooner, for some people). I only truly understood how to make the most out of my roles when playing non-faceroll content, and by challenging myself to solo normal content when I was low CP.
I was simply making a point.
To many people are complaining that "unskilled" players show up in vet groups and that players should learn in dungeons not in vet dungeons how to play.
Yet you are saying dungeons are to easy so why waste time learning there....
Which leads directly to my point.
That it is laughably contradictory.
One simply CAN’T become “skilled” by completing normal dungeons with a full group as the dungeons were “intended” to be completed. The mobs do barely any damage, meaning that you barely have to slot any healing skills as a healer. Because the mobs do barely any damage, tanks can get away with slotting a taunt and going full DPS. Damage dealers who are doing proper rotations with appropriate gear will barely have time to get off a full rotation on a trash pull, as everything dies so quickly. If you want to learn how to DPS while also being able to survive, you need to (1) practice on a target dummy, and (2) get comfortable with soloing normal dungeons. If you want to learn how to tank or heal, you first have to gear yourself appropriately and practice with people who know that you’re learning (e.g. guild mates) and are able to give tips. YOLO pugging a vet dungeon without appropriate practice is a sure fire way to annoy other players. And again, you’re not going to get adequate practice for vet content if you’re running normal dungeons with a full group.
Soooo normal dungeons are for solo only now?
Of course not. What I’m saying is that they’re not adequate preparation for vet dungeons. If you learn how to deal damage solely by doing normals (without spending time practicing your rotation or challenging yourself to soloing certain content), then you’re probably doing max 10k DPS, which is subpar for vet dungeons. If you learn how to tank or heal in normal dungeons, you’re not going to be even remotely adequately prepared for the harder vet HM dungeons.
DPS is a dung-shoot, yes.
But don't make it out like tanking and healing are anything equally difficult to master in regards to performance. As a tank, you need high health and defenses, plus a sense of protection to your fellow man. As a Healer, you need healing abilities, means to buff your party and basically keep people alive.
As a tank you have to learn to have as little "high health and defenses" as possible in favor of support. There is not enough damage in normals to even require a tank. A one shot mechaninc from vet leaves you with 40% in normal. Same with healers. Average vigor will heal you through any add pack on normal.
Are you saying I shouldn't have high health and defenses with that "As little "high jealth and defenses" as possible"?
Last I checked, tanks were meant to be meatshields that can withstand anything heading their way. Not semi-beefy yet less-deadly damage dealers.
Saying that they should have less health and armor kinda defeats the purpose and label of a tank.1 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.
You learn how to play your class at a competitive level by completing veteran dungeons. Normals are so easy that they can be soloed around CP 200 (and probably sooner, for some people). I only truly understood how to make the most out of my roles when playing non-faceroll content, and by challenging myself to solo normal content when I was low CP.
I was simply making a point.
To many people are complaining that "unskilled" players show up in vet groups and that players should learn in dungeons not in vet dungeons how to play.
Yet you are saying dungeons are to easy so why waste time learning there....
Which leads directly to my point.
That it is laughably contradictory.
One simply CAN’T blahblahblahblahblah(ad infinium)...
LMMFAO.
The point I was trying to make is flying comepletely by you.
My POINT is
One half of the community is saying "STAY OUT OF VETS GO LEARN IN NORMALS"
And the other half is saying "NORMALS IS FOR SPEED NOT LEARNING."
That was it nothing else.
The fact you feel like you have to express your authority to me when it had nothing to do with what I was saying is funny.
Wanna do that quote somone who was debating the subject. I was simply making an amusing observation of the conflict at large not debating the mechanics of it
It really isn’t flying by me. You pointed out a supposed contradiction (people who complain about garbage players in vet dungeons vs. people who state that normals are not the place to prepare yourself for vet dungeons). I have to confess that I see VERY few vet players telling subpar players to practice in normals with a full group — we usually encourage them to post their builds, help them to find weak points in their rotations, and encourage them to practice on target dummies and/or train in easy vet dungeons with guild mates.
In your first post, which I originally replied to, you implied that people DO learn how to play their classes in normal dungeons, and that speed running is the reason why they’re not learning.
0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.
You learn how to play your class at a competitive level by completing veteran dungeons. Normals are so easy that they can be soloed around CP 200 (and probably sooner, for some people). I only truly understood how to make the most out of my roles when playing non-faceroll content, and by challenging myself to solo normal content when I was low CP.
I was simply making a point.
To many people are complaining that "unskilled" players show up in vet groups and that players should learn in dungeons not in vet dungeons how to play.
Yet you are saying dungeons are to easy so why waste time learning there....
Which leads directly to my point.
That it is laughably contradictory.
One simply CAN’T become “skilled” by completing normal dungeons with a full group as the dungeons were “intended” to be completed. The mobs do barely any damage, meaning that you barely have to slot any healing skills as a healer. Because the mobs do barely any damage, tanks can get away with slotting a taunt and going full DPS. Damage dealers who are doing proper rotations with appropriate gear will barely have time to get off a full rotation on a trash pull, as everything dies so quickly. If you want to learn how to DPS while also being able to survive, you need to (1) practice on a target dummy, and (2) get comfortable with soloing normal dungeons. If you want to learn how to tank or heal, you first have to gear yourself appropriately and practice with people who know that you’re learning (e.g. guild mates) and are able to give tips. YOLO pugging a vet dungeon without appropriate practice is a sure fire way to annoy other players. And again, you’re not going to get adequate practice for vet content if you’re running normal dungeons with a full group.
Soooo normal dungeons are for solo only now?
Of course not. What I’m saying is that they’re not adequate preparation for vet dungeons. If you learn how to deal damage solely by doing normals (without spending time practicing your rotation or challenging yourself to soloing certain content), then you’re probably doing max 10k DPS, which is subpar for vet dungeons. If you learn how to tank or heal in normal dungeons, you’re not going to be even remotely adequately prepared for the harder vet HM dungeons.
DPS is a dung-shoot, yes.
But don't make it out like tanking and healing are anything equally difficult to master in regards to performance. As a tank, you need high health and defenses, plus a sense of protection to your fellow man. As a Healer, you need healing abilities, means to buff your party and basically keep people alive.
As a tank you have to learn to have as little "high health and defenses" as possible in favor of support. There is not enough damage in normals to even require a tank. A one shot mechaninc from vet leaves you with 40% in normal. Same with healers. Average vigor will heal you through any add pack on normal.
Are you saying I shouldn't have high health and defenses with that "As little "high jealth and defenses" as possible"?
Last I checked, tanks were meant to be meatshields that can withstand anything heading their way. Not semi-beefy yet less-deadly damage dealers.
Saying that they should have less health and armor kinda defeats the purpose and label of a tank.
You should have just enough health and defense to stay alive. You don't need 50k health with Plague Doctor and Warrior-Poet if you can run Ebon and Dragonguard and stay alive with 35k while supporting you group. Everything else should go to group support. I've never implied tanks are supposed to deal damage. And personally I consider any tank-DD setup pointless.
In ESO tank is a support role, not a big meaty guy standing in front of boss's balls and holding block.Edited by Royaji on April 23, 2018 2:17PM0 -
Aesthier✭✭✭✭✭
In your first post, which I originally replied to, you implied that people DO learn how to play their classes in normal dungeons, and that speed running is the reason why they’re not learning.
Well, perhaps I shouldn't have been as subtle about the inference. My apologies but yes newbies do start learning in normals if they have a group thats not rushing through.
And not I suspect that inside guilds people do not tell their noobies to go learn in normals but on the forums you hear the get out of vets constantly.Edited by Aesthier on April 23, 2018 2:23PM3 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.
You learn how to play your class at a competitive level by completing veteran dungeons. Normals are so easy that they can be soloed around CP 200 (and probably sooner, for some people). I only truly understood how to make the most out of my roles when playing non-faceroll content, and by challenging myself to solo normal content when I was low CP.
I was simply making a point.
To many people are complaining that "unskilled" players show up in vet groups and that players should learn in dungeons not in vet dungeons how to play.
Yet you are saying dungeons are to easy so why waste time learning there....
Which leads directly to my point.
That it is laughably contradictory.
One simply CAN’T become “skilled” by completing normal dungeons with a full group as the dungeons were “intended” to be completed. The mobs do barely any damage, meaning that you barely have to slot any healing skills as a healer. Because the mobs do barely any damage, tanks can get away with slotting a taunt and going full DPS. Damage dealers who are doing proper rotations with appropriate gear will barely have time to get off a full rotation on a trash pull, as everything dies so quickly. If you want to learn how to DPS while also being able to survive, you need to (1) practice on a target dummy, and (2) get comfortable with soloing normal dungeons. If you want to learn how to tank or heal, you first have to gear yourself appropriately and practice with people who know that you’re learning (e.g. guild mates) and are able to give tips. YOLO pugging a vet dungeon without appropriate practice is a sure fire way to annoy other players. And again, you’re not going to get adequate practice for vet content if you’re running normal dungeons with a full group.
Soooo normal dungeons are for solo only now?
Of course not. What I’m saying is that they’re not adequate preparation for vet dungeons. If you learn how to deal damage solely by doing normals (without spending time practicing your rotation or challenging yourself to soloing certain content), then you’re probably doing max 10k DPS, which is subpar for vet dungeons. If you learn how to tank or heal in normal dungeons, you’re not going to be even remotely adequately prepared for the harder vet HM dungeons.
DPS is a dung-shoot, yes.
But don't make it out like tanking and healing are anything equally difficult to master in regards to performance. As a tank, you need high health and defenses, plus a sense of protection to your fellow man. As a Healer, you need healing abilities, means to buff your party and basically keep people alive.
As a tank you have to learn to have as little "high health and defenses" as possible in favor of support. There is not enough damage in normals to even require a tank. A one shot mechaninc from vet leaves you with 40% in normal. Same with healers. Average vigor will heal you through any add pack on normal.
Are you saying I shouldn't have high health and defenses with that "As little "high jealth and defenses" as possible"?
Last I checked, tanks were meant to be meatshields that can withstand anything heading their way. Not semi-beefy yet less-deadly damage dealers.
Saying that they should have less health and armor kinda defeats the purpose and label of a tank.
Incorrect. The purpose of tanks in ESO is to debuff the boss, group up/CC the adds, taunt and position the boss/any add that can do significant damage to another player, and occasionally shield other players during particularly high-AOE damage moments. Maximizing your health and resistances at the expense of your ability to debuff and CC makes you a BAD tank. It’s not just about surviving the big hits; it’s about helping the team perform at its best. You only need as much health as is necessary to survive (which, in normal dungeons, is not very much). If you don’t have enough magicka or stamina to debuff/CC, then you’re not doing your job properly.
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Dragath✭✭✭✭Taranthula wrote: »Jolipinator wrote: »
Yup. It's case of competing interests. Some people want to go slower, and some people want to go faster. How do we resolve the conflict? Compromise, or majority wins?
Best way is for the speedrunners to look at their own words for a second.
"Go join a rp guild."
Why don't you join a dungeon guild? Or ask for people in zone chat who have 30 seconds to spare before the world ends.
"I can solo this dungeon."
Then play it on your own.
"I don't have time for this."
Stop using group finder with strangers who could be new/low level/questing/having fun.
you do realize this thread was created by someone that complained about speedrunners, not the other way around?
i said it to the op, and i say it to you:
the speedrunners are not complaining about you.
you are complaining about the speedrunners.
so if you don't like to be thrown in with them and it bothers you, but not them, then you should check for alternatives to make your own life easier.
Uhm..have you actually read all the posts in this thread? O.o
yes, i have.
have you?
who started the thread?
can you find anyone that says "you are not allowed to play slow."?
no, because nobody here is complaining about slow players.
the slow players are complaining about the fast players.
the fast players try to explain why they do it and that the slow players can form pre-mades if it bothers them so much.
it doesn't bother fast players at all, they are fine with the fact that they encounter slower players, so there is no need for them to form pre-mades.
the answer from the slow players is basically "i don't like what you do! Do it my way!".
its childish entitlement.Edited by Dragath on April 23, 2018 2:33PM1 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
If you get to 700 cp and don't know what you're doing, it's not the fault of RDF or normal dungeons.And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.
You learn how to play your class at a competitive level by completing veteran dungeons. Normals are so easy that they can be soloed around CP 200 (and probably sooner, for some people). I only truly understood how to make the most out of my roles when playing non-faceroll content, and by challenging myself to solo normal content when I was low CP.
I was simply making a point.
To many people are complaining that "unskilled" players show up in vet groups and that players should learn in dungeons not in vet dungeons how to play.
Yet you are saying dungeons are to easy so why waste time learning there....
Which leads directly to my point.
That it is laughably contradictory.
There are plenty of opportunities to play the game and learn your class, role, and content. If you've grinded to 700 without knowing how to play, the fault is your own.
Most of the people doing the norms at high CP are there for the XP bonus, and they've likely cleared the content in Vet more times than most can count.
If you're (approaching) higher CP and have not taken the time to do this, it's on you. Taking all the time in the world on Norm is never going to improve a player's ability past a certain CP level (if ever). That's what Vet is intended for.
Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS0 -
Ozstryker✭✭✭✭And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.
You learn how to play your class at a competitive level by completing veteran dungeons. Normals are so easy that they can be soloed around CP 200 (and probably sooner, for some people). I only truly understood how to make the most out of my roles when playing non-faceroll content, and by challenging myself to solo normal content when I was low CP.
I was simply making a point.
To many people are complaining that "unskilled" players show up in vet groups and that players should learn in dungeons not in vet dungeons how to play.
Yet you are saying dungeons are to easy so why waste time learning there....
Which leads directly to my point.
That it is laughably contradictory.
One simply CAN’T become “skilled” by completing normal dungeons with a full group as the dungeons were “intended” to be completed. The mobs do barely any damage, meaning that you barely have to slot any healing skills as a healer. Because the mobs do barely any damage, tanks can get away with slotting a taunt and going full DPS. Damage dealers who are doing proper rotations with appropriate gear will barely have time to get off a full rotation on a trash pull, as everything dies so quickly. If you want to learn how to DPS while also being able to survive, you need to (1) practice on a target dummy, and (2) get comfortable with soloing normal dungeons. If you want to learn how to tank or heal, you first have to gear yourself appropriately and practice with people who know that you’re learning (e.g. guild mates) and are able to give tips. YOLO pugging a vet dungeon without appropriate practice is a sure fire way to annoy other players. And again, you’re not going to get adequate practice for vet content if you’re running normal dungeons with a full group.
Soooo normal dungeons are for solo only now?
Of course not. What I’m saying is that they’re not adequate preparation for vet dungeons. If you learn how to deal damage solely by doing normals (without spending time practicing your rotation or challenging yourself to soloing certain content), then you’re probably doing max 10k DPS, which is subpar for vet dungeons. If you learn how to tank or heal in normal dungeons, you’re not going to be even remotely adequately prepared for the harder vet HM dungeons.
Kinda gotta disagree, normals are the only adequate preparation for vets, pugs are where u learn group mechanics! Also to be adequately prepared for vets you need gear.. right...
Normals is where you go to bone up and gear up!
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Erelah✭✭✭✭It is rather hypocritical when these people go and say "Get friends, join a guild, stfu and play with a premade group", only to say "We don't need to get a premade group/guild", as if their way is somehow infinitely superior to the slower. Why? Because they happen to be max CP while I am only 270CP away from being max as well, therefore I am not allowed to tell them to get a group/guild as well? I don't think so.
Yes, I am still being a little steamed up about this, primarily because I know that when I next start up a dungeon on an alt or my main, I will have to deal with the same rush-rush type of people and question myself why bother doing the dungeon.
Speedrunning is the "default" mode of doing dungeons because the majority of people have already cleared the dungeons hundreds of times before. It's as simple as that, really. Not because it's somehow innately superior. Nobody has said that, don't make it some kind of moral issue when it's not.
Is it nice/polite for groups to slow down and wait for you? Sure is. I always make the effort to do so when someone needs a quest. But y'all have to remember that you are asking other human beings to cater to you and take extra unnecessary time so that you can specifically do your own thing. They have every right to say no, because their time is valuable too (and/or they just might not want to), and you have to respect that. They do not owe you anything. Asking someone to take less time and asking someone to take more time are not equivalent things... because one is wasting someone's time, usually the majority of the party.
Your statement is false equivalency there.
Asking someone to cater to your playstyle (rushing dungeons so you can do something else after) is exactly the same as asking someone to cater to your playstyle (taking time in dungeons so you can do something else after).
Ultimately this is a game no matter how someone phrases it, everyone's free time is equal. The best solution would likely be adding a speed run and a story mode option (or perhaps make the quests repeatable so people will benefit from redoing them).
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Guarlet✭✭✭✭✭It is rather hypocritical when these people go and say "Get friends, join a guild, stfu and play with a premade group", only to say "We don't need to get a premade group/guild", as if their way is somehow infinitely superior to the slower. Why? Because they happen to be max CP while I am only 270CP away from being max as well, therefore I am not allowed to tell them to get a group/guild as well? I don't think so.
Yes, I am still being a little steamed up about this, primarily because I know that when I next start up a dungeon on an alt or my main, I will have to deal with the same rush-rush type of people and question myself why bother doing the dungeon.
Speedrunning is the "default" mode of doing dungeons because the majority of people have already cleared the dungeons hundreds of times before. It's as simple as that, really. Not because it's somehow innately superior. Nobody has said that, don't make it some kind of moral issue when it's not.
Is it nice/polite for groups to slow down and wait for you? Sure is. I always make the effort to do so when someone needs a quest. But y'all have to remember that you are asking other human beings to cater to you and take extra unnecessary time so that you can specifically do your own thing. They have every right to say no, because their time is valuable too (and/or they just might not want to), and you have to respect that. They do not owe you anything. Asking someone to take less time and asking someone to take more time are not equivalent things... because one is wasting someone's time, usually the majority of the party.
Your statement is false equivalency there.
Asking someone to cater to your playstyle (rushing dungeons so you can do something else after) is exactly the same as asking someone to cater to your playstyle (taking time in dungeons so you can do something else after).
Ultimately this is a game no matter how someone phrases it, everyone's free time is equal. The best solution would likely be adding a speed run and a story mode option (or perhaps make the quests repeatable so people will benefit from redoing them).
Perhaps you didn't understand what I said? Sure, both are asking someone to cater to your playstyle. But asking for more of someone's time is the exact opposite of asking for less of someone's time. I'm... not sure how that's difficult to comprehend? Incidentally, throwing a fit and demanding that a whole group slow down just for you is demonstrating that you don't value the time of the rest of the group.
There's no need for 'speed run' and 'story mode' options. Speed run is the default mode because that's what most people prefer to do. It's pretty simple. God I keep saying this in every post. You, are the minority. If you want a 'story mode' option, make your own like-minded group (or ask politely for your random group to slow down but don't get salty if it doesn't work out, because it won't always). Don't ask everyone else in the game to change just for you.AKA The Goblinator, PC/EU0 -
Kalgert✭✭✭✭✭Suddenly I have started questioning if it was a right move to make this thread.
Two sides bickering with each other (More like Faster runners trying to look like they're on a high horse while speaking in a false calm manner while slower players are being just as well smarmy, can't say I am not at fault for that either)
Only reason I see faster players say "Oh I am not bothered at all", is because they don't "Need" to be bothered by seeing a slower player, because they're too busy flexing at their own muscles about how they rushed ahead while the slower players are just walking behind them.
I am still of the opinion that faster players are a bunch of *Snip* and who should start making their own groups.
In before "Make ur own grp lel" comments roll in to counter my statement in a weak fashion.3 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
part of the issue is that so many high cp players do normal dungeons to power level so an new players get carried all the time and nobody care if he is only LA.Juju_beans wrote: »And people wonder why no one knows their class by the time they are 700 cp.
Its because this happens in all dungeons below vet.
Can't learn to play class when you spend the entire time engaged in sprint so you can at least hit a boss with an attack before they die.
You learn how to play your class at a competitive level by completing veteran dungeons. Normals are so easy that they can be soloed around CP 200 (and probably sooner, for some people). I only truly understood how to make the most out of my roles when playing non-faceroll content, and by challenging myself to solo normal content when I was low CP.
I was simply making a point.
To many people are complaining that "unskilled" players show up in vet groups and that players should learn in dungeons not in vet dungeons how to play.
Yet you are saying dungeons are to easy so why waste time learning there....
Which leads directly to my point.
That it is laughably contradictory.
One simply CAN’T become “skilled” by completing normal dungeons with a full group as the dungeons were “intended” to be completed. The mobs do barely any damage, meaning that you barely have to slot any healing skills as a healer. Because the mobs do barely any damage, tanks can get away with slotting a taunt and going full DPS. Damage dealers who are doing proper rotations with appropriate gear will barely have time to get off a full rotation on a trash pull, as everything dies so quickly. If you want to learn how to DPS while also being able to survive, you need to (1) practice on a target dummy, and (2) get comfortable with soloing normal dungeons. If you want to learn how to tank or heal, you first have to gear yourself appropriately and practice with people who know that you’re learning (e.g. guild mates) and are able to give tips. YOLO pugging a vet dungeon without appropriate practice is a sure fire way to annoy other players. And again, you’re not going to get adequate practice for vet content if you’re running normal dungeons with a full group.
Soooo normal dungeons are for solo only now?
Of course not. What I’m saying is that they’re not adequate preparation for vet dungeons. If you learn how to deal damage solely by doing normals (without spending time practicing your rotation or challenging yourself to soloing certain content), then you’re probably doing max 10k DPS, which is subpar for vet dungeons. If you learn how to tank or heal in normal dungeons, you’re not going to be even remotely adequately prepared for the harder vet HM dungeons.
They are no preparation at all if 3 people are just sprinting to follow that speed runner that's taking everything out by themselves.
Add all the low level but high cp alts with good gear who know how to play and the difficulty get far to easy to learn anything.
Or they learn the can queue as fake tank or healer and usually get away with it still only LA.
At level 50 default changes from random normal to random vet and they get an problem
Now the normal dlc is in line with the easiest vet dungeons, but here its even more high cp players farming gear or doing that pledge in normal.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.2 -
BeefyMrTips✭✭✭✭To be honest, if you queue up for a random dungeon, you have signed up to be at the mercy of the other players you get. If you don't want trouble I highly recommend you find or create your own guild that will run things the way you enjoy.
There are like minded individuals out there for every situation, you cant hate on the ones that don't go to the beat of your drum because you don't go to theirs either.
Mr. was my Father's name, just the tips is fine.4 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Suddenly I have started questioning if it was a right move to make this thread.
Two sides bickering with each other (More like Faster runners trying to look like they're on a high horse while speaking in a false calm manner while slower players are being just as well smarmy, can't say I am not at fault for that either)
Only reason I see faster players say "Oh I am not bothered at all", is because they don't "Need" to be bothered by seeing a slower player, because they're too busy flexing at their own muscles about how they rushed ahead while the slower players are just walking behind them.
I am still of the opinion that faster players are a bunch of *Snip* and who should start making their own groups.
In before "Make ur own grp lel" comments roll in to counter my statement in a weak fashion.
Tell me, Kalgert: what does your group gain by fighting trash groups one at a time, instead of pulling multiple trash groups and burning them down in one large clump before the boss fight? Trash groups are little more than a time sink. They're an annoyance: http://massivelyop.com/2017/04/03/the-daily-grind-which-mmo-is-the-worst-for-trash-pulls/ There is NO strategy involved with dungeon trash, beyond group 'em up and burn 'em down as fast as possible. There are no special mechanics to learn, no unique experience that a competent damage dealer is depriving you of.
Also, how many times do we have to explain this to you? Blitzing through a normal dungeon is not about "flexing" our own "muscles" -- it's about getting the dungeon completed efficiently. You realize, right, that even IF a competent level-capped damage dealer were to slow-down and kill trash groups one at a time, it would STILL be a one-man/woman show? In order to give you the sort of slow dungeon experience you want, I would have to light attack my way through the entire dungeon (doing a grand total of 8k DPS), as a single cast of blockade + liquid lightning is enough to melt trash mobs almost instantaneously. It honestly sounds like you think level capped, competent DPSers do this just to make you look/feel bad. That is NOT the intent; if you feel bad, that's on you.4 -
Thorstienn✭✭✭
Tell me, Kalgert: what does your group gain by fighting trash groups one at a time, instead of pulling multiple trash groups and burning them down in one large clump before the boss fight? Trash groups are little more than a time sink. They're an annoyance: http://massivelyop.com/2017/04/03/the-daily-grind-which-mmo-is-the-worst-for-trash-pulls/ There is NO strategy involved with dungeon trash, beyond group 'em up and burn 'em down as fast as possible. There are no special mechanics to learn, no unique experience that a competent damage dealer is depriving you of.
Also, how many times do we have to explain this to you? Blitzing through a normal dungeon is not about "flexing" our own "muscles" -- it's about getting the dungeon completed efficiently. You realize, right, that even IF a competent level-capped damage dealer were to slow-down and kill trash groups one at a time, it would STILL be a one-man/woman show? In order to give you the sort of slow dungeon experience you want, I would have to light attack my way through the entire dungeon (doing a grand total of 8k DPS), as a single cast of blockade + liquid lightning is enough to melt trash mobs almost instantaneously. It honestly sounds like you think level capped, competent DPSers do this just to make you look/feel bad. That is NOT the intent; if you feel bad, that's on you.
I agree with some of this, specifically that once higher CP, fully geared etc, a lot of mechanics CAN'T be taken slower without resorting to LA. This is a direct result of a "MAX" character being in content designed for lvls 10-50 noCP (ignoring DLC). Which I have no problem with.
The problem could be easily solved (in my mind) if GF grouped CP160+ separate from lowers (unless you premake group). Then a group of higher CP players can blitz through an easy dungeon they've been doing since lvl10.
However, I disagree that there is nothing to learn from trash mobs, as a low lvl/new player. Tank has to learn how to group the mobs efficiently, DPS need to learn not to "aggro" everything before tank and to apply maximum AoE into the mobs, healer supplies resources and correctly lays AoE and HoTs. All more forgiving in Normal and req knowledge for Vet and trials content.
I love lvling a new tank in GF with groups of low 20s. Showing them the ropes, practicing a new tank class etc.
I also love blitzing through some easy pledges when I'm short on time with my max lvls. (if I have time I always Vet as purple gear is better for Decon, plus keys and an endless bank of Monster Helms.)
TL:DR cp160 shouldn't be queued with under lvl players anyway, and then this wouldn't be an issue.1 -
Azuramoonstar✭✭✭✭the only way to slow down speed running is to set up gates through out dungeons.
ff14 had speed running for the same reasons here, faster, easier, and people running content x times.
SE started to add mid dungeon gates that prevent you from moving till you drop the gate by either killing the mobs, or an obstruction.
After SE started to do this speed running slowed down quite a bit, and not too many people speed run non gated dungeons.
best thing to do atm, is find like minded players who play around the same time you do. And run content together instead of demanding others do that.
You can only control you.Long time mmo player: 2004-[current year]
Long time Elder scrolls player: Xbox launch morrowind.
Follower of the dawn and dusk, keeper of the moon and star.1 -
Mureel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭... it’s called mob clustering. It’s much more efficient (esp. in normal dungeons) to grab large bunches of mobs and aoe them down. There’s ZERO need to fight trash mobs one group at a time.
Mob Clustering? Is that what it's called?
xD
That mocked, I (on my tank) pull and group up giant stacks too. No one has time for killing 2-3 mobs at a time, waste of resources.0 -
kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I just run normals I can solo and you can join me for the ride.
Usually no one complains when Blasting through at a fervent pace.
Vet dungeons may be a little different. You can easily ad minutes killing all the ads or skip them, even a deliberate wipe.
Doesn’t everyone skip the ads? Why fight all that tanky garbage if you don’t have to. It’s just a time sink.
Some you run through to pull all the ads to choke points then burn em down.
I just had a guy roll out because he wanted to kill everything in falkreath while we all rushed ahead. I don’t get it. There’s enough garbage in there you have to fight. I’m all about skipping what you can and shorten up the run.
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Kalgert✭✭✭✭✭It honestly sounds like you think level capped, competent DPSers do this just to make you look/feel bad. That is NOT the intent; if you feel bad, that's on you.
Oh, you misunderstand. I don't "Feel bad" because some "Competent DPS" players (Bwahahahaha, I can't believe you actually called 'em as such) are rushing ahead and eviscerating everything quickly.
I do however feel annoyed at seeing my time being wasted, because some people feel the need to go rush-rush at everything. Yes, I consider speedrunners as time-wasters.
That's ultimately what made me consider making this thread: Speedrunners are wasting time because they are trying ever so desperately to get through the dungeon really quickly, that they end up disrespecting my time.
And in the mantra of the speedrunners: My time is precious, and I don't like it being wasted.
Example of how this is the case: Speedrunners sitting at one spot because they are trying to figure out how to progress further, only to realise a minute or so later that they need to kill a prerequisite boss (Yes, that can happen).
Or how they end up going ahead while people are sitting behind fighting monsters, because let's be honest, you can't really un-aggro something just by running away. Therefore, time spent fighting something that really was out of the way.
So yes. Speedrunners are disrespectful time wasters.Edited by Kalgert on April 23, 2018 5:33PM3
