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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
For anyone wondering what the intentions of crowncrates
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DoctorESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Shouldn't the low odds teach people not to gamble, either in game or in real life?2 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »
10 million accounts... 150mil/month.Just think ,,,,all those "whales" buying the crates are helping fund this game so you can play. Subs alone can't pay for everything so to get extra revenue the crown shop is needed. Beside no one can tell me how I can spend my money that I earn through work
Pretty sure subs could cover the cost of ESO if everyone paid them and kept playing.
They use the WOW method, which is misleading. The game has had 10 million copies sold. That is not the number of people that play. A realistic number of unique accounts that login per month is probably in the neighborhood of 500k across all platforms. That will drop to somewhere between 150k-250k, so we will say somewhere between $2 and $4 million a month.
On another note for those that think that these games are cheap to run and companies are just super greedy for trying to get you to open your wallet:
Just to operate 1000 servers can cost $300k plus a month alone just for electricity. ESO will have far more than a thousand servers. Here is an example of what it took to run WoW long before ESO was made..."WoW’s infrastructure includes 13,250 server blades, 75,000 CPU cores, and 112.5 terabytes of blade RAM." That was from somewhere in 2006-2008 era.
ESO is far more complex game world that requires far more processing power. More processing power means more electric. It takes massive amounts of electric just to run the servers and their cooling fans. Then you have bandwidth. First the servers require a backbone link. They dont just call up the local cable provider and order 10 packages and call it a day. They need Tbps of bandwidth.
Then you have the hardware itself. A lowend server is still 6 figures just for the hardware. They will have millions and million of dollars just in hardware. Eve upgraded some of their servers a few years ago, the upgrades cost half a million dollars. Thats not to replace them, just upgrade them and they didnt upgrade all of their servers.
Then you have the room the servers are contained in. They arent in someones basement. Servers generate a lot of heat. They will likely be in a subterranean room that is basically a climate controlled clean room. A little bit of static electricity can destroy millions of dollars worth of equipment. The room will have the humidity controlled, have a large amount of ventilation and have its own HVAC systems to keep the room cool and remove the massive amount of heat the servers produce.
All of those costs and we didnt even make it out of the server room. MMOs are high risk and require a lot of capital. They have a very high daily operating cost.
And its all so we can sit on the forums and complain about how unfair it is we cant get the horsy we want because its in a chance crate and we dont want to play a game of chance and its not fair and predatory and greedy.
You know whats greedy? People expecting others to provide them services for free especially when those services cost a lot of money to produce. Thats greedy.
A little more food for thought. The cost to produce a game has went up 500% or more( depending on the type of game) in the last 15 years. The cost to operate one has also increased by magnitudes more in the same time period. The average sub fee in 2003 was $15, the average sub fee in 2018 was $15. The average cost of an AAA game in 2003 was $60. The average cost of an AAA game in 2018 is $60. Wages have increased ~50% since 2003 but we still expect to pay 2003 prices for games and subs. Wait... who are the greedy ones again?
And then someone goes and looks up how much the company is worth.....they are NOT hurting for money. This game is turning a profit.
And your point is? That they understand how to monetize their games? That they know how to run a gaming business?
Or is your point that they should run ESO at a loss since they are profitable overall?
And how can you say anything about the profitability of any one game from the value of the company that owns that game and many other games? I can tell you from working one at of the largest tech companies in the world that the company can be profitable while business units are in the red and Wall Street thinks they are in a crisis. You clearly don't understand how business remain healthy long term.0 -
Palidon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Crown Crates are a marketing exploit. If you fall prey to it then it's your fault. More and more folks are not subjecting themselves to their Crown Store crap so they have to find ways to fish you back in. Remember you do not have to support their marketing ripoff. But if you do, don't complain about it.1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Shouldn't the low odds teach people not to gamble, either in game or in real life?
They make it sound like so much fun. I ran across an ad for a state lottery while traveling recently that said, "nothing is luckier than playing for 1 million dollars." Wha-? The odds of winning that million were stated, in the ad, to be more than one in a million. What they meant was "nothing is luckier than winning 1 million dollars in our lottery."
The hype, which we gladly share in the forum, trumps math every time.
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JWKe✭✭✭✭The stats are simply assuming the most likely occurrence. However, at the end of the day RnG is still RnG. Bonus card rolls are independent events and increases the chance exponentially of getting an apex mount or a radiant apex mount, and for some folks if RnG is on their side can push past the 17% chance of getting a bonus card assuming they open the crates in bunches. On the flip side some folks may fall under the 17% chance assuming they open the crate in bunches.
Such results I think intrinsically creates very polarizing views on the subject matter. Where now folks who see favorable outcomes would more likely support the CC and folks who saw poor outcomes would now more likely not support them.
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The fact that gaming companies are being look at by lawmakers in the first place should show that these companies are not in the market for the sake of their customers rather than the sake of their own profiteering. I have been playing games for the past 25 years of my life and its only been within the past decade or less than I have seen more and more instances of gaming companies being blasted by lawmakers. It is getting beyond ridiculous. I miss the days where games in all aspects were for the sheer purpose of my enjoyment rather than trying to get at my pockets. I am more than happy to buy content at a decent and fair price, I will NEVER indulge in any kind of gambling mechanic, overpriced cosmetic items or any kind of dlc in general, or any kind of monetary unfairness. I get that people work hard to get paid, and they should be paid accordingly, their skills and reputations of themselves and of the companies that they work for should be the gateway to their bread and butter along with the products and services that they provide.0
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Pops_ND_Irish✭✭✭✭✭Pretty eye opening statistics that makes me never want to support this game ever again. I'll just leave this here and before all the you don't have to buy them comments. There is no defending this. I’m pretty sure they only give free crates out to trigger people to buy more once they’ve opened them. Didn’t get something you wanted? Maybe you’re more likely to get it next time. Got something good? Well why not just buy a few more in case you get something else you might like.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8dasjl/crown_crate_statistical_analysis_how_much_do/
[minor edit for bait in title]
Geez just play the game1 -
Lylith✭✭✭✭✭
✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »Istoppucks wrote: »Pretty eye opening statistics that makes me never want to support this game ever again. I'll just leave this here and before all the you don't have to buy them comments. There is no defending this. I’m pretty sure they only give free crates out to trigger people to buy more once they’ve opened them. Didn’t get something you wanted? Maybe you’re more likely to get it next time. Got something good? Well why not just buy a few more in case you get something else you might like.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8dasjl/crown_crate_statistical_analysis_how_much_do/
Not eye opening at all.
Gambling is an addiction that will, in time, take everything from you. If you are an adult, you should know this. If you are a kid you should not be participating (hence all the legal hullabaloo going on right now.)
Eso is rated "M" if a kid is playing and spending his parents money Thats an issue for the parents not ZOS.
I like how people completely and utterly ignore that there is a world outside of the US. The rating for ESo in a lot of countries is 16. So there is that.
Eh...Puritanism never quite went away in the States. I LOVED it when I first moved to the EU, the differences were marked and welcome.
if you don't mind giving up your freedom of speech and self protection, ofc.
enjoy, by all means.
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OrdoHermetica✭✭✭✭✭
✭
if you don't mind giving up your freedom of speech and self protection, ofc.
enjoy, by all means.
You, uh... you do realize that the United States isn't the only country with legally protected freedom of speech, right? And you also realize that European countries all have different laws regarding self-protection, and that plenty of countries handle that just fine without having the same legal setup we do?
It's cool if you're proud to be an American and like how the U.S. does things. I rather like it here, too. But other countries aren't dystopian nightmare states where everyone is censored and criminals prey on helpless citizens disarmed by a cold, uncaring government. And implying that is... ignorant. To say the least.
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huntgod_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shouldn't the low odds teach people not to gamble, either in game or in real life?
You clearly don't understand how an addiction or compulsion work.
The issue with the way crates are implemented in many of these game, regardless of whether the items are cosmetic, p2w or whatnot, is they use manipulative and predatory techniques to target a specific and vulnerably portion of the gaming market. Which is fine so long as they play by certain accepted rules, similar to those enforced on casinos and lotteries and that some protections are put in place to dissuade or minimize it's access to minors.
I understand some folks have issues with state intervention with these types of things, I do not.
--- HuntGod ---
Officer of the Unrepentant
www.unrepentantgaming.com1 -
JWKe✭✭✭✭Lols at folks hoping government do something and using buzzwords like predatory, addiction, etc. At the end of the day this isn’t much different from drugs or alcohol. All they will do at most is have game companies stick a label warning people of these random boxes. Even with all this we still see folks blow their entire wealth on booze and drugs. It is what it is.0
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Wayshuba✭✭✭✭✭Lols at folks hoping government do something and using buzzwords like predatory, addiction, etc. At the end of the day this isn’t much different from drugs or alcohol. All they will do at most is have game companies stick a label warning people of these random boxes. Even with all this we still see folks blow their entire wealth on booze and drugs. It is what it is.
Drugs, alcohol and gambling are handled a bit different than that.
For example, with alcohol or under age gambling the business who sells to a minor faces serious fines and/or jail time for selling to minors.
If Loot Crates are eventually put under US gambling laws then not only will the box contains and Adults Only rating, but game companies are going to have to have a mechanism to prevent sales to minors - otherwise they will face stiff fines or worse. Of course, having an AO rating will already hit a lot of companies hard in initial sales.
But, until or if that day ever comes, the only thing that will change things is if loot crates just plain stop selling.2 -
JWKe✭✭✭✭Lols at folks hoping government do something and using buzzwords like predatory, addiction, etc. At the end of the day this isn’t much different from drugs or alcohol. All they will do at most is have game companies stick a label warning people of these random boxes. Even with all this we still see folks blow their entire wealth on booze and drugs. It is what it is.
Drugs, alcohol and gambling are handled a bit different than that.
For example, with alcohol or under age gambling the business who sells to a minor faces serious fines and/or jail time for selling to minors.
If Loot Crates are eventually put under US gambling laws then not only will the box contains and Adults Only rating, but game companies are going to have to have a mechanism to prevent sales to minors - otherwise they will face stiff fines or worse. Of course, having an AO rating will already hit a lot of companies hard in initial sales.
But, until or if that day ever comes, the only thing that will change things is if loot crates just plain stop selling.
There's no monetary gain in the instance of loot crates therefore I doubt it would be labeled as gambling. The reason why the government stepped in for the most part when it came to the numbers (lottery), or casino gambling is mainly due to the vast amounts of money they can tax individuals who make a profit out of it. There is nothing to tax in the regard of crown crates and so the government i very highly doubt will step in purely for the reason of ethics. Not to sound anti-government or conspiratorial here but that's just how it works around here.
The best case scenario if anything will be that they'll have the gaming companies up the age requirements to purchase the game and have the companies stick a sticker on the game box warning of loot boxes. Ultimately, these loot boxes are not much different from 'gashapon' machines and i don't see the government getting much involved with those.0 -
mikejezz✭✭✭✭Saucy_Jack wrote: »Businesses perhaps exist to make money. But game designers exist because they want to make good games.
Originally the Elder Scrolls series was created because a team got together and wanted to make some great games.
ESO was created because a team wanted to make a great game while also making some money.
At this point, it feels as though "making a great game" is too often sacrificed on the altar of profit.
I mean, they've obviously spent some time coding lots of new goodies to put in the crown store, but still haven't implemented an inventory grid view into the game code? Still haven't fixed the mail to not require a rezone/reload/relog to show up? Come on.
There’s also difference between a single player game and a online game that cost money for the developer to maintain.
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Jtj87✭✭✭First the dutch government and now the belgian gaming commission. Glad to see some taking action against unregulated gambling.
https://www.mmorpg.com/news/belgiums-gaming-commission-finds-loot-boxes-illegal-seeks-removal-1000048226#vanilla-comments1 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »Thing is, those odds aren't even official.
At least my state lottery has to be upfront and honest about the odds of (not) breaking even and the various levels of prizes.
Yes. This is also why this will either end up in regulation or NEEDS regulation.
They're being awfully secretive for something that they act like isn't illegal or at least potentially very dirty almost evil.
This is just a bad bad thing all around.
I'll be happy when the government steps in because the game companies certainly won't police themselves.0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭rafaelcsmaia wrote: »The odds are always in favor of the house, this is true for every single gambling in the world, why rng crates would be any different?
While true, regulations require(because they needed regulating) that gambling institutions and lotteries advertise odds and even payback most of the winnings to the gamblers. Even the lottery in my state is at least 50% return to the lottery winners of all proceeds and 50% goes to the government that runs it.
10 things your casino won't tell you - Fox News0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shouldn't the low odds teach people not to gamble, either in game or in real life?
Hope is a dangerous thing.
Hope is why we gamble despite horrible odds and why these crown crates are able to exploit us like any other lootbox. We hope for a better life, even if it is just a cosmetic item in a video game that makes us a tiny bit happier.
Telling us to stop buying lootboxes or stop gambling in any other way is to ask us to stop having hope. That's often literally the point of suicide.1 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lols at folks hoping government do something and using buzzwords like predatory, addiction, etc. At the end of the day this isn’t much different from drugs or alcohol. All they will do at most is have game companies stick a label warning people of these random boxes. Even with all this we still see folks blow their entire wealth on booze and drugs. It is what it is.
Drugs, alcohol and gambling are handled a bit different than that.
For example, with alcohol or under age gambling the business who sells to a minor faces serious fines and/or jail time for selling to minors.
If Loot Crates are eventually put under US gambling laws then not only will the box contains and Adults Only rating, but game companies are going to have to have a mechanism to prevent sales to minors - otherwise they will face stiff fines or worse. Of course, having an AO rating will already hit a lot of companies hard in initial sales.
But, until or if that day ever comes, the only thing that will change things is if loot crates just plain stop selling.
There's no monetary gain in the instance of loot crates therefore I doubt it would be labeled as gambling.
Actually, there is a monetary gain for the seller of the loot crates and the purchaser doesn't know how much they need to spend to get an item that has a finite cost.
It is gambling when you spend any amount in return for an indeterminate return.
We're gambling our real money we value for something else we value worth that money, up to a point we determine it is worth. We cannot make an informed purchase decision if the price is unknown due to random chance.
That is either completely illegal scamming or theft if we never get the return or just illegal false advertising or gambling without revealing the odds which is also illegal and all are illegal when applied to minors.
This game is rated maximum of 17 and up, but children do play as everyone knows but ignore that for now. The gambling laws are 18 and up or 21 and up in just the United States.
Therefore, they will need to raise the age rating of this game and implement a very intrusive annoying method of preventing anyone under 21(to cover the most areas possible) from playing, unless they do the much easier thing and either remove the crates entirely or offer all items for direct purchase outside the crates as an option.
This will happen whether ZOS wants to be forced into it or chooses to avoid the legal trouble before it happens.0 -
DoctorESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭huntgod_ESO wrote: »Shouldn't the low odds teach people not to gamble, either in game or in real life?
You clearly don't understand how an addiction or compulsion work.
The issue with the way crates are implemented in many of these game, regardless of whether the items are cosmetic, p2w or whatnot, is they use manipulative and predatory techniques to target a specific and vulnerably portion of the gaming market. Which is fine so long as they play by certain accepted rules, similar to those enforced on casinos and lotteries and that some protections are put in place to dissuade or minimize it's access to minors.
I understand some folks have issues with state intervention with these types of things, I do not.
Ah, yes, people acted irrationally. What a twist to the economic concept that people act rationally. How do we draw the line between a profitable business and exploitive behavior?0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭huntgod_ESO wrote: »Shouldn't the low odds teach people not to gamble, either in game or in real life?
You clearly don't understand how an addiction or compulsion work.
The issue with the way crates are implemented in many of these game, regardless of whether the items are cosmetic, p2w or whatnot, is they use manipulative and predatory techniques to target a specific and vulnerably portion of the gaming market. Which is fine so long as they play by certain accepted rules, similar to those enforced on casinos and lotteries and that some protections are put in place to dissuade or minimize it's access to minors.
I understand some folks have issues with state intervention with these types of things, I do not.
Ah, yes, people acted irrationally. What a twist to the economic concept that people act rationally. How do we draw the line between a profitable business and exploitive behavior?
Easy, you set a line once it is obvious that they crossed it so that nobody crosses it again. That's all you can do.
That's what this company and others are asking for by their actions.0 -
xeNNNNN✭✭✭✭✭
✭Syncronaut wrote: »
edit: assumed deletion of previous thread incorrectly, edited accordingly
ah good ole sid, I do enjoy his videos quite a bit.
it is interesting, I wonder if ZoS are trying very very hard to skirt around the topic just by the name of their boxes. Based on the other thread that got locked, the way that was worded;
"As this discussion is not focused on ESO we have closed this thread. If you would like to discuss Crown Crates, there is an active discussion in the Crown Store & ESO Plus Section of the forum: Here"
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/409545/belgium-defines-video-game-loot-boxes-as-illegal-gambling#latest
So from that I can only assume they seem to think by calling them crown crates that they arent look boxes? Based on industry news its some what of a dangerous time for devs or anyone in the industry to be playing *** for tat with names...even mods lol
@ZOS_RyanM one could argue that regardless of whether it had a place on a particular forum or not was a matter of debate, whether there needed to be more threads is also debatable but saying it isnt focused on ESO does not automatically exclude ESO from that discussion, you are part of the industry AND you have a loot box system (I dont care if you want too call it crown crates THEY ARE "loot boxes").Edited by xeNNNNN on April 26, 2018 11:50PMAh, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.0 -
JWKe✭✭✭✭I agree. It’s strange none of these forum mods who isn’t their sole purpose to communicate with the player base somehow as if by instruction have been told to make no mention or comment of crown crates.0
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Katahdin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The intentions of the crown crates is to get players to spend way more money on something than they should and probably still not get it.Beta tester November 20132
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JygNQ_n22U