Belgium defines video game loot boxes as illegal gambling

Granamere

I hope this is the beginning of the end for loot boxes in games!

https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/25/17280440/belgium-video-game-loot-boxes-illegal-gambling

Graydon

I don’t buy loot boxes and I don’t live in Belgium.

MajesticHaruki

I hope more countries follow Belgium and Netherlands.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

If you live in the states, call your congressmen. I called mine and the very pleasent lady I spoke to said she didnt know anything like this even existed and couldn't fathom how it was legal. I think this is frankly under or off the radar for a lot people actually making decisions.

I would have absolutely no issue with crown crates if drop rates were disclosed, just like any other form of gambling.

badmojo

One could consider the crown price per crate as a bet, and the RNG is a game of chance, but you cant profit from crown crates.

Prof_Bawbag

I'm surprised the UK government hasn't jumped all over this like a rash. Not because they're unethical and all that malarkey, but because they love to tax every God damn thing under the sun.

Kiralyn2000

MajesticHaruki wrote: »

I hope more countries follow Belgium and Netherlands.

I would hope that more follow Netherlands than Belgium, since they seem to have made a more nuanced decision on it. (i.e, only going after loot boxes that people can actually get cash from, selling the items to other players for $)


edit: I also look forward to what the game companies come up with to make up for the loss of revenue. I fully expect it to fulfill "be careful what you wish for" to a T.

Violynne

Granamere wrote: »

I hope this is the beginning of the end for loot boxes in games!

Sorry to burst bubbles here, but it won't. All Belgium did was to determine some loot boxes contain the element of financial gain, and these types of loot boxes are illegal now.

All publishers will do is now model them after other games which do not go against the law.

Loot boxes aren't going anywhere until people stop buying them.

So basically: they're here to stay.

hregrin

I'd love to have an official statement from ZOS so as to know what that implies for Belgian players. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober, anything on that topic?

Tryxus

Seems my country has finally grown a brain

Guarlet

Violynne wrote: »

Granamere wrote: »

I hope this is the beginning of the end for loot boxes in games!

Sorry to burst bubbles here, but it won't. All Belgium did was to determine some loot boxes contain the element of financial gain, and these types of loot boxes are illegal now.

All publishers will do is now model them after other games which do not go against the law.

Loot boxes aren't going anywhere until people stop buying them.

So basically: they're here to stay.

Also, Belgium is a tiny country. If a more major country like France, the UK, the US, etc, did this, you would start to see much more of an effect.

swippy

so if i'm reading this right, ESO isn't touched by either ruling. the Netherlands one specifies that the items must be tradeable to be prohibited, and since it's a violation of ToS to sell your account with the glowing mount on it, i think they're covered. the Belgian one specifies it's prohibited that a bet be placed for profit or loss, and since ESO can simply say they're selling a collection of random consumables with a chance of bonus cosmetics, i think there's no risk of loss so they're clear.

i wonder how closely the crates people had to work with the law team to get this so right, so far.

Eyro

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

MajesticHaruki wrote: »

I hope more countries follow Belgium and Netherlands.

I would hope that more follow Netherlands than Belgium, since they seem to have made a more nuanced decision on it. (i.e, only going after loot boxes that people can actually get cash from, selling the items to other players for $)


edit: I also look forward to what the game companies come up with to make up for the loss of revenue. I fully expect it to fulfill "be careful what you wish for" to a T.

Well they have already taken most of the cosmetics away from the collectors. So maybe they will finally take the rest of the loot away from from ‘leet’ players.

White wabbit

hregrin wrote: »

I'd love to have an official statement from ZOS so as to know what that implies for Belgian players. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober, anything on that topic?

I can give you a quote you will have your own server all 10 of you :smiley )

xilfxlegion

evidently i didnt get the memo. what do you folks have against crown crates?

MaxwellC

I think Lootboxes are fine as long as they present an end goal i.e you accumulate x amount of the loot box exclusive currency to purchase something but that too has to be fairly within grasp i.e costing less than 100$.

cyclonus11

Instead, I would like to see the full legalization of all forms of gambling.

DMuehlhausen

Granamere wrote: »

I hope this is the beginning of the end for loot boxes in games!

https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/25/17280440/belgium-video-game-loot-boxes-illegal-gambling

Yes more government control because people can't control their spending.

ak_pvp

I don't, and will never buy a scamcrate. I still disagree with countries shoving themselves into everything. I would put a china style "have to reveal odds." and be done with it.

Guarlet

xilfxlegion wrote: »

evidently i didnt get the memo. what do you folks have against crown crates?

People are against the RNG/gambling nature of them. Which I can understand, even though I think it is completely inconsequential for this game because all of the contents are purely cosmetic.

White wabbit

I can see ZOS staff feverlsy cancelling their holidays to Belguim

Eyro

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Granamere wrote: »

I hope this is the beginning of the end for loot boxes in games!

https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/25/17280440/belgium-video-game-loot-boxes-illegal-gambling

Yes more government control because people can't control their spending.

I don’t really care if it is legal or not. I just want it to stop. I don’t go into a video game store hand the clerk 100 dollars and tell him just to pick me whatever he wants. And I don’t shop in games like that either. But there is stuff in the crates I would purchase for a flat price if offered.

So if it takes a couple laws to get the mount out into the open where I can buy it, who do I have to call?

Defilted

I hope no one follows the capital of globalism and socialism.

No thank you.

josiahva

in several games — Overwatch, FIFA 18, and Counter Strike: Global Offensive

a pretty limited selection of games there...evidently they did not find all loot boxes were created equal.

DMuehlhausen

Eyro wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Granamere wrote: »

I hope this is the beginning of the end for loot boxes in games!

https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/25/17280440/belgium-video-game-loot-boxes-illegal-gambling

Yes more government control because people can't control their spending.

I don’t really care if it is legal or not. I just want it to stop. I don’t go into a video game store hand the clerk 100 dollars and tell him just to pick me whatever he wants. And I don’t shop in games like that either. But there is stuff in the crates I would purchase for a flat price if offered.

So if it takes a couple laws to get the mount out into the open where I can buy it, who do I have to call?

I do think they need to make more items attainable either by gold, or quests, or achievements for sure. However, having some rare items in the crates is perfectly fine. If people have the cash to drop on them till they get that item then let them do it. I'm sorry i fyou feel like your character or in game life isn't complete cause you don't have a specific cosmetic item.

Violynne

Guarlet wrote: »

Also, Belgium is a tiny country. If a more major country like France, the UK, the US, etc, did this, you would start to see much more of an effect.

The US has been looking into the complaints of loot boxes, but again, not those which are offered by ZoS, but whose contents can be sold/traded outside the game, making it easier to tie to monetary gain.

Loot boxes aren't the issue. It's the financial trade off where people who spend money feel they're rigged to offer items in which the monetary value (sold outside the game) doesn't justify the loss.

Remember those weapon skins? There were two prominent sites owned by the same people, who actively advertised the sites without telling people they own them.

This is how loot boxes become a problem, because more people will see a change in the system, and I'm with firm belief publishers intentionally changed the drop scale to get more people to buy them.

ZoS, for better or worse, is in the clear. Their loot boxes do not incite a financial gain, so no legislation will touch them (unless all loot boxes are made illegal).

The two sides arguing both have valid points: Pro side says it's their money, let them waste it as they see fit and Con side says they're gambling/lottery and designed to screw people over.

I'm with the con side.

When a company purposely withholds information to hide the actual chances of claiming the "best" prizes, I find this unethical, but sadly, not illegal.

I will never understand why anyone would pay for a chance when they don't even know the odds. That truly is a foolish way to waste the money they have every right to do.

If the odds were displayed, I may even partake myself.

But no {expletive} way would I do so without them.

Granamere

Some people have a compulsion that they have to have one of everything. To this end the crown crate takes advantage of them in the fact in each set there are a few items that can only be randomly won and not purchased from the gems. I would prefer the crate go away and just allow people to buy what they want in the store. I currently have a ton on crap (hats, outfits, etc) I would have never of bought but because I wanted that stupid mount so I kept buying crates. Because now I look back at how stupid I was I will not buy any more crates going forward.

I am not for governments injecting needless laws but in this case if this puts pressure on company's to stop this predatory tactics then I am all for it.

Doctordarkspawn

Graydon wrote: »

I don’t buy loot boxes and I don’t live in Belgium.

The practice will likely be curbed to appease the strictest countries. Much like alterations are made of the release of certain games in certain countries.

After EA's fantastical blundering the practice was allready on it's last legs. Hopefully, this will be the end of it.

DMuehlhausen

Granamere wrote: »

Some people have a compulsion that they have to have one of everything. To this end the crown crate takes advantage of them in the fact in each set there are a few items that can only be randomly won and not purchased from the gems. I would prefer the crate go away and just allow people to buy what they want in the store. I currently have a ton on crap (hats, outfits, etc) I would have never of bought but because I wanted that stupid mount so I kept buying crates. Because now I look back at how stupid I was I will not buy any more crates going forward.

I am not for governments injecting needless laws but in this case if this puts pressure on company's to stop this predatory tactics then I am all for it.

Yeah this I could get behind. Leave us the crates, but also make that Apex mount everyone wants like 1000 gems or something. Do I just buy the 1000 gems for 200$ or so I buy 150$ worth of crates and hope I get the mount. At least I have the option and can just buy the item out right if I want to spend the money or save the gems over time from other items.

Marginis

Loot boxes have been getting in more and more trouble, legally speaking, recently, not just in Belgium (although that is probably the most recent and extreme case I can think of). Simply put, loot boxes are dying and I don't think they can meet their fate soon enough.

Kalgert

Guarlet wrote: »

xilfxlegion wrote: »

evidently i didnt get the memo. what do you folks have against crown crates?

People are against the RNG/gambling nature of them. Which I can understand, even though I think it is completely inconsequential for this game because all of the contents are purely cosmetic.

Remember when cosmetics came with the box, as unlockables or secrets? I certainly do.

In before "You get cosmetic unlocks in quests": There's not enough of them. Or well, to be more specific: Compared to how many total cosmetic items you can find in the Crown Store as opposed to out in the world, I would say that the Crown Store's better stocked