Maintenance for the week of November 18:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
For anyone wondering what the intentions of crowncrates
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Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »Istoppucks wrote: »Pretty eye opening statistics that makes me never want to support this game ever again. I'll just leave this here and before all the you don't have to buy them comments. There is no defending this. I’m pretty sure they only give free crates out to trigger people to buy more once they’ve opened them. Didn’t get something you wanted? Maybe you’re more likely to get it next time. Got something good? Well why not just buy a few more in case you get something else you might like.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8dasjl/crown_crate_statistical_analysis_how_much_do/
Not eye opening at all.
Gambling is an addiction that will, in time, take everything from you. If you are an adult, you should know this. If you are a kid you should not be participating (hence all the legal hullabaloo going on right now.)
Eso is rated "M" if a kid is playing and spending his parents money Thats an issue for the parents not ZOS.
I like how people completely and utterly ignore that there is a world outside of the US. The rating for ESo in a lot of countries is 16. So there is that.
Eh...Puritanism never quite went away in the States. I LOVED it when I first moved to the EU, the differences were marked and welcome.
Yeah, I lived in WA state for 6 years, and after coming back to my birthcountry, i would never go back.
Back on topic tho, lol. I find it funny when people use the M rating as an argument. Gambling isnt allowed at 17 last time i checked, lol.
I've no idea on gambling ages since...I don't gamble. To me the difference here is when you go into a casino (or wherever) and start gaming, you can walk away with absolutely nothing whereas with the crates you'll always get something albeit not necessarily something über. Maybe I'm just too easily pleased.
That said I've reached a point where I almost wish they'd do away with the crates so we can find something else to be offended by.
The only time, aside from once, i would ever use my monthly crowns on crates is IF i had all my slots maxed out, i owned every mount available in the store , costume, personality, etc, then and ONLY then, would I even -consider- it, and im sure im not alone there.
As for the ages its 18 in some states, and 21 in others. Here in Germany its 18, and the game is rated 16.Edited by Jade1986 on April 20, 2018 1:11PM0 -
DieAlteHexe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »Istoppucks wrote: »Pretty eye opening statistics that makes me never want to support this game ever again. I'll just leave this here and before all the you don't have to buy them comments. There is no defending this. I’m pretty sure they only give free crates out to trigger people to buy more once they’ve opened them. Didn’t get something you wanted? Maybe you’re more likely to get it next time. Got something good? Well why not just buy a few more in case you get something else you might like.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8dasjl/crown_crate_statistical_analysis_how_much_do/
Not eye opening at all.
Gambling is an addiction that will, in time, take everything from you. If you are an adult, you should know this. If you are a kid you should not be participating (hence all the legal hullabaloo going on right now.)
Eso is rated "M" if a kid is playing and spending his parents money Thats an issue for the parents not ZOS.
I like how people completely and utterly ignore that there is a world outside of the US. The rating for ESo in a lot of countries is 16. So there is that.
Eh...Puritanism never quite went away in the States. I LOVED it when I first moved to the EU, the differences were marked and welcome.
Yeah, I lived in WA state for 6 years, and after coming back to my birthcountry, i would never go back.
Back on topic tho, lol. I find it funny when people use the M rating as an argument. Gambling isnt allowed at 17 last time i checked, lol.
I've no idea on gambling ages since...I don't gamble. To me the difference here is when you go into a casino (or wherever) and start gaming, you can walk away with absolutely nothing whereas with the crates you'll always get something albeit not necessarily something über. Maybe I'm just too easily pleased.
That said I've reached a point where I almost wish they'd do away with the crates so we can find something else to be offended by.
The only time, aside from once, i would ever use my monthly crowns on crates is IF i had all my slots maxed out, i owned every mount available in the store , costume, personality, etc, then and ONLY then, would I even -consider- it, and im sure im not alone there.
As for the ages its 18 in some states, and 21 in others. Here in Germany its 18, and the game is rated 16.
Oh, obviously you aren't alone in that as these threads will attest. I have a go once a "season" these days, usually. I check what is possibly in there and judge from that. Rarely am I interested in the radiants because (sorry ZoS) they usually don't appeal to me at all. I call 'em the "TryHardMounts".
Dirty, filthy casual aka Nancy, the Wallet Warrior Carebear Potato Whale Snowflake1 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »Istoppucks wrote: »Pretty eye opening statistics that makes me never want to support this game ever again. I'll just leave this here and before all the you don't have to buy them comments. There is no defending this. I’m pretty sure they only give free crates out to trigger people to buy more once they’ve opened them. Didn’t get something you wanted? Maybe you’re more likely to get it next time. Got something good? Well why not just buy a few more in case you get something else you might like.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8dasjl/crown_crate_statistical_analysis_how_much_do/
Not eye opening at all.
Gambling is an addiction that will, in time, take everything from you. If you are an adult, you should know this. If you are a kid you should not be participating (hence all the legal hullabaloo going on right now.)
Eso is rated "M" if a kid is playing and spending his parents money Thats an issue for the parents not ZOS.
I like how people completely and utterly ignore that there is a world outside of the US. The rating for ESo in a lot of countries is 16. So there is that.
Eh...Puritanism never quite went away in the States. I LOVED it when I first moved to the EU, the differences were marked and welcome.
Yeah, I lived in WA state for 6 years, and after coming back to my birthcountry, i would never go back.
Back on topic tho, lol. I find it funny when people use the M rating as an argument. Gambling isnt allowed at 17 last time i checked, lol.
I've no idea on gambling ages since...I don't gamble. To me the difference here is when you go into a casino (or wherever) and start gaming, you can walk away with absolutely nothing whereas with the crates you'll always get something albeit not necessarily something über. Maybe I'm just too easily pleased.
That said I've reached a point where I almost wish they'd do away with the crates so we can find something else to be offended by.
The only time, aside from once, i would ever use my monthly crowns on crates is IF i had all my slots maxed out, i owned every mount available in the store , costume, personality, etc, then and ONLY then, would I even -consider- it, and im sure im not alone there.
As for the ages its 18 in some states, and 21 in others. Here in Germany its 18, and the game is rated 16.
Oh, obviously you aren't alone in that as these threads will attest. I have a go once a "season" these days, usually. I check what is possibly in there and judge from that. Rarely am I interested in the radiants because (sorry ZoS) they usually don't appeal to me at all. I call 'em the "TryHardMounts".
Some of them are cool, but lets be honest, spending an absurd amount of money for something you are just gonna lose anyway when the game goes offline, is silly, at best.1 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »Istoppucks wrote: »Pretty eye opening statistics that makes me never want to support this game ever again. I'll just leave this here and before all the you don't have to buy them comments. There is no defending this. I’m pretty sure they only give free crates out to trigger people to buy more once they’ve opened them. Didn’t get something you wanted? Maybe you’re more likely to get it next time. Got something good? Well why not just buy a few more in case you get something else you might like.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8dasjl/crown_crate_statistical_analysis_how_much_do/
Not eye opening at all.
Gambling is an addiction that will, in time, take everything from you. If you are an adult, you should know this. If you are a kid you should not be participating (hence all the legal hullabaloo going on right now.)
Eso is rated "M" if a kid is playing and spending his parents money Thats an issue for the parents not ZOS.
I like how people completely and utterly ignore that there is a world outside of the US. The rating for ESo in a lot of countries is 16. So there is that.
Eh...Puritanism never quite went away in the States. I LOVED it when I first moved to the EU, the differences were marked and welcome.
Yeah, I lived in WA state for 6 years, and after coming back to my birthcountry, i would never go back.
Back on topic tho, lol. I find it funny when people use the M rating as an argument. Gambling isnt allowed at 17 last time i checked, lol.
I've no idea on gambling ages since...I don't gamble. To me the difference here is when you go into a casino (or wherever) and start gaming, you can walk away with absolutely nothing whereas with the crates you'll always get something albeit not necessarily something über. Maybe I'm just too easily pleased.
That said I've reached a point where I almost wish they'd do away with the crates so we can find something else to be offended by.
The only time, aside from once, i would ever use my monthly crowns on crates is IF i had all my slots maxed out, i owned every mount available in the store , costume, personality, etc, then and ONLY then, would I even -consider- it, and im sure im not alone there.
As for the ages its 18 in some states, and 21 in others. Here in Germany its 18, and the game is rated 16.
Nothing wrong with just keeping a crown balance for the future.1 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »Istoppucks wrote: »Pretty eye opening statistics that makes me never want to support this game ever again. I'll just leave this here and before all the you don't have to buy them comments. There is no defending this. I’m pretty sure they only give free crates out to trigger people to buy more once they’ve opened them. Didn’t get something you wanted? Maybe you’re more likely to get it next time. Got something good? Well why not just buy a few more in case you get something else you might like.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8dasjl/crown_crate_statistical_analysis_how_much_do/
Not eye opening at all.
Gambling is an addiction that will, in time, take everything from you. If you are an adult, you should know this. If you are a kid you should not be participating (hence all the legal hullabaloo going on right now.)
Eso is rated "M" if a kid is playing and spending his parents money Thats an issue for the parents not ZOS.
I like how people completely and utterly ignore that there is a world outside of the US. The rating for ESo in a lot of countries is 16. So there is that.
Eh...Puritanism never quite went away in the States. I LOVED it when I first moved to the EU, the differences were marked and welcome.
Yeah, I lived in WA state for 6 years, and after coming back to my birthcountry, i would never go back.
Back on topic tho, lol. I find it funny when people use the M rating as an argument. Gambling isnt allowed at 17 last time i checked, lol.
I've no idea on gambling ages since...I don't gamble. To me the difference here is when you go into a casino (or wherever) and start gaming, you can walk away with absolutely nothing whereas with the crates you'll always get something albeit not necessarily something über. Maybe I'm just too easily pleased.
That said I've reached a point where I almost wish they'd do away with the crates so we can find something else to be offended by.
The only time, aside from once, i would ever use my monthly crowns on crates is IF i had all my slots maxed out, i owned every mount available in the store , costume, personality, etc, then and ONLY then, would I even -consider- it, and im sure im not alone there.
As for the ages its 18 in some states, and 21 in others. Here in Germany its 18, and the game is rated 16.
Nothing wrong with just keeping a crown balance for the future.
exactly what i do pretty much. I spent i think 40 euro on some crates one time, and i got squat all, and i was like, seriously, smurf this, never again.0 -
DieAlteHexe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »Istoppucks wrote: »Pretty eye opening statistics that makes me never want to support this game ever again. I'll just leave this here and before all the you don't have to buy them comments. There is no defending this. I’m pretty sure they only give free crates out to trigger people to buy more once they’ve opened them. Didn’t get something you wanted? Maybe you’re more likely to get it next time. Got something good? Well why not just buy a few more in case you get something else you might like.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8dasjl/crown_crate_statistical_analysis_how_much_do/
Not eye opening at all.
Gambling is an addiction that will, in time, take everything from you. If you are an adult, you should know this. If you are a kid you should not be participating (hence all the legal hullabaloo going on right now.)
Eso is rated "M" if a kid is playing and spending his parents money Thats an issue for the parents not ZOS.
I like how people completely and utterly ignore that there is a world outside of the US. The rating for ESo in a lot of countries is 16. So there is that.
Eh...Puritanism never quite went away in the States. I LOVED it when I first moved to the EU, the differences were marked and welcome.
Yeah, I lived in WA state for 6 years, and after coming back to my birthcountry, i would never go back.
Back on topic tho, lol. I find it funny when people use the M rating as an argument. Gambling isnt allowed at 17 last time i checked, lol.
I've no idea on gambling ages since...I don't gamble. To me the difference here is when you go into a casino (or wherever) and start gaming, you can walk away with absolutely nothing whereas with the crates you'll always get something albeit not necessarily something über. Maybe I'm just too easily pleased.
That said I've reached a point where I almost wish they'd do away with the crates so we can find something else to be offended by.
The only time, aside from once, i would ever use my monthly crowns on crates is IF i had all my slots maxed out, i owned every mount available in the store , costume, personality, etc, then and ONLY then, would I even -consider- it, and im sure im not alone there.
As for the ages its 18 in some states, and 21 in others. Here in Germany its 18, and the game is rated 16.
Oh, obviously you aren't alone in that as these threads will attest. I have a go once a "season" these days, usually. I check what is possibly in there and judge from that. Rarely am I interested in the radiants because (sorry ZoS) they usually don't appeal to me at all. I call 'em the "TryHardMounts".
Some of them are cool, but lets be honest, spending an absurd amount of money for something you are just gonna lose anyway when the game goes offline, is silly, at best.
Eh, I see it differently. When the game finally shuts its doors (and that could be 10 to 20 years from now ala EQ, UO etc.) I will have enjoyed the...er...rental. Even at another 5 years, it'd be worth the cost to me, entertainment BUT, very, very few have any appeal to me.
Dirty, filthy casual aka Nancy, the Wallet Warrior Carebear Potato Whale Snowflake0 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Istoppucks wrote: »Istoppucks wrote: »Pretty eye opening statistics that makes me never want to support this game ever again. I'll just leave this here and before all the you don't have to buy them comments. There is no defending this. I’m pretty sure they only give free crates out to trigger people to buy more once they’ve opened them. Didn’t get something you wanted? Maybe you’re more likely to get it next time. Got something good? Well why not just buy a few more in case you get something else you might like.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8dasjl/crown_crate_statistical_analysis_how_much_do/
Not eye opening at all.
Gambling is an addiction that will, in time, take everything from you. If you are an adult, you should know this. If you are a kid you should not be participating (hence all the legal hullabaloo going on right now.)
Eso is rated "M" if a kid is playing and spending his parents money Thats an issue for the parents not ZOS.
Can you show me the part of the M rating that mentions gambling? I'll wait.
First go back and read the conversation not just knit pick one comment. He was crying about kids playing the game. The game is mature rated and its not ZOS fault if parents allow their kids to play a mature rated game.
Second according to the definition of "gamble" loot crates in eso are not gambling.
gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
Based on the legal definition of gambling multiple governments have come out and Stated loot boxes are not gambling .
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2017/12/16/16785474/loot-boxes-gambling-law-government-star-wars-battlefront-2
https://www.pcgamer.com/uk-gambling-commission-restates-that-loot-boxes-are-not-gambling/Istoppucks wrote: »Stewart1874 wrote: »Stewart1874 wrote: »
Virtually all new content is via Crown Crates, if you want to buy new content invariably you will need to buy crown crates to obtain that content.. sorry I mean have a chance of obtaining that conent. The decision to remove or fail to offer an alternative means to gain new content you're FORCED to gamble.
I'd class a 0.2% chance of getting a reward they use as their centre piece to the marketing campaign each Crown Crate run as ripping us off. (Unless Zo$ want to be transparent about their Crates and offer up the exact drop rates?)
You realise you're making excuses for a corporate entity right?
Wait what?
I didn't realize dragon bones DLC <BTW really good dungeons> is behind a crown crate.
I must have been really lucky. Everyone I know got it first timeDieAlteHexe wrote: »Stewart1874 wrote: »Thing is, ZOS isn't FORCING us to buy these crates. You can't blame something just for existing more than you can blame those who make the conscious choice to partake. And I at least know I'm not the one who's shoving hundreds into these crates. At MOST I've ever done is buy the 15 pack one time, I don't buy any more even if I don't get anything good. And even then most of these seasons so far didn't have stuff I wanted.
Zenimax is a business. As long as they're not downright ripping us off or committing fraud with our cash, they can do what they want.
Virtually all new content is via Crown Crates, if you want to buy new content invariably you will need to buy crown crates to obtain that content.. sorry I mean have a chance of obtaining that conent. The decision to remove or fail to offer an alternative means to gain new content you're FORCED to gamble.
I'd class a 0.2% chance of getting a reward they use as their centre piece to the marketing campaign each Crown Crate run as ripping us off. (Unless Zo$ want to be transparent about their Crates and offer up the exact drop rates?)
You realise you're making excuses for a corporate entity right?
What? Just today there was new stuff added that wasn't in Crown Crates. Costumes, dyes, pets etc.
I'm assuming english isn't your first language, First word of my post 'Virtually' means nearly or almost. I.e Nearly or Almost all content is behind the Crown Crates. That is an accurate view.Stewart1874 wrote: »Thing is, ZOS isn't FORCING us to buy these crates. You can't blame something just for existing more than you can blame those who make the conscious choice to partake. And I at least know I'm not the one who's shoving hundreds into these crates. At MOST I've ever done is buy the 15 pack one time, I don't buy any more even if I don't get anything good. And even then most of these seasons so far didn't have stuff I wanted.
Zenimax is a business. As long as they're not downright ripping us off or committing fraud with our cash, they can do what they want.
You realise you're making excuses for a corporate entity right?
One, I wrote no excuses. And two, what is that supposed to mean? You don't like corporations? They exist cause that's the wonderful world of Capitalism our forefathers created. And I'm not about to become a 99%er fanatic aiming to tear down Society so things can be different.
Everything obtainable via Crown Crates besides experience scrolls and the like are purely cosmetic additions. Everything concerning gameplay is still offered for base amounts to purchase to own. I'd be right there with you if I had to gamble to get access to Summerset, but I don't so I don't see an issue.
Those absolutely are excuses man! Don't lie
Regulated Capitalism is great, unregulated capitalism is not. Businesses have a responsibility to more than just their shareholders nowadays. Loot crates are gambling and in their current form unregulated. There is zero transparency or best practise standards on the implementation of them meaning like with Star Wars Battlefront 2 , companies want to see just how far they can push the consumer. I find that morally wrong. No one is saying Zo$ don't have a right to make money but the manner they choose to do it it leaves a very bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths.
My intention here is not to embarrass you (although im sure it will) it is to educate those like you.
Here are the FACTS Loot crates in most mmorpgs including eso are NOT gambling. In the real world FACTS are what matter not unhinged, uneducated emotions with a hint if bias, FACTS are what matter.
In most countries the LEGAL DEFINITION OF GAMBLE is:
gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
Based on the legal definition of gambling multiple governments have come out and Stated loot boxes are not gambling .
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2017/12/16/16785474/loot-boxes-gambling-law-government-star-wars-battlefront-2
https://www.pcgamer.com/uk-gambling-commission-restates-that-loot-boxes-are-not-gambling/
So please stop with this loot boxes are gambling because they are not.
First that was me commenting, I know exactly what I said. If you want to use the term "crying" then I am leaning towards you simply ad-hominem attacking me, which usually means you are feeling a little bit shaky with your argument. But it could be just that you are acting like a jerk.
My point was that parents can decide that they are OK with the animated violence and mature themes in ESO, which are pretty tame by most accounts. Even the "drug use" in the game isn't exactly hardcore. But the Mature rating does not mention "Players may be prompted to purchase loot crates with real money which have a random chance to win in-game items". So even parents who read the ESRB ratings do not have this information.
Also the second line in the article you posted:
"But the commission also acknowledged that the legal definition of gambling isn't necessarily the point." This is the point you are missing. "It's not reeaally gambling" *wink, wink* is just a lawyers way of arguing that their client never broke the law, and while true and no legal punishment should occur, society can still look at the facts and decide that the legal definition may need altering in order to fit the current situation better.
I will also point out that I have no problem from an ethical standpoint with loot crates existing in the game, my problem (you know, what I was crying about) is that the ESRB is a toothless, voluntary system that clearly does not give out all the information to make an informed decision, and that kids are in fact participating in activities, that while perhaps not meeting the legal definition of gambling, only a person with their eyes wide shut could argue are not very similar to gambling in practice.
Wording 101: "Loot crates are avaliable for purchase in game for real money. You're guaranteed 4 random items." There is no "random chance to win in-game items" involved with a crown crate. You purchase X crates. You're guaranteed AT LEAST 4 items per crate, which are randomly chosen from a predetermined and defined pool.
There is no gambling involved because you gain items for your money. You may not get what you WANT, but that doesn't make it gambling. It makes it random. You do not risk losing your money and receiving nothing.
I personally don't care about your strict definition of "gambling". Using semantics is great for legal definitions and courtrooms, but you and others are just using in an attempt to easily dismiss the larger issue here. I also don't think giving out consolation prizes (read garbage) completely absolves companies from using random chance psychology tactics on individuals without at least giving warning about odds.
I still firmly believe that that ESRB rating don't mention anything about buying random chance boxes to potential parents of kids.
I will (again) point out that I have no problem with loot crates being in the game, aside from how all the good stuff seems to be increasingly stuffed into them exclusively, but rather I have a problem with the lack of transparency with their implementation, and ESRB ratings that give no warning to even vigilant parents.
Here is all I propose:
1. Game rating should include information that many items in game are only available through the purchase of Crown Crates, which use a random chance mechanic to determine what prizes you receive.
2. Odds of winning items should be posted for all to see, so informed decisions can be made.
Is that too much to ask?3 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
10 million accounts... 150mil/month.Just think ,,,,all those "whales" buying the crates are helping fund this game so you can play. Subs alone can't pay for everything so to get extra revenue the crown shop is needed. Beside no one can tell me how I can spend my money that I earn through work
Pretty sure subs could cover the cost of ESO if everyone paid them and kept playing.
They use the WOW method, which is misleading. The game has had 10 million copies sold. That is not the number of people that play. A realistic number of unique accounts that login per month is probably in the neighborhood of 500k across all platforms. That will drop to somewhere between 150k-250k, so we will say somewhere between $2 and $4 million a month.
On another note for those that think that these games are cheap to run and companies are just super greedy for trying to get you to open your wallet:
Just to operate 1000 servers can cost $300k plus a month alone just for electricity. ESO will have far more than a thousand servers. Here is an example of what it took to run WoW long before ESO was made..."WoW’s infrastructure includes 13,250 server blades, 75,000 CPU cores, and 112.5 terabytes of blade RAM." That was from somewhere in 2006-2008 era.
ESO is far more complex game world that requires far more processing power. More processing power means more electric. It takes massive amounts of electric just to run the servers and their cooling fans. Then you have bandwidth. First the servers require a backbone link. They dont just call up the local cable provider and order 10 packages and call it a day. They need Tbps of bandwidth.
Then you have the hardware itself. A lowend server is still 6 figures just for the hardware. They will have millions and million of dollars just in hardware. Eve upgraded some of their servers a few years ago, the upgrades cost half a million dollars. Thats not to replace them, just upgrade them and they didnt upgrade all of their servers.
Then you have the room the servers are contained in. They arent in someones basement. Servers generate a lot of heat. They will likely be in a subterranean room that is basically a climate controlled clean room. A little bit of static electricity can destroy millions of dollars worth of equipment. The room will have the humidity controlled, have a large amount of ventilation and have its own HVAC systems to keep the room cool and remove the massive amount of heat the servers produce.
All of those costs and we didnt even make it out of the server room. MMOs are high risk and require a lot of capital. They have a very high daily operating cost.
And its all so we can sit on the forums and complain about how unfair it is we cant get the horsy we want because its in a chance crate and we dont want to play a game of chance and its not fair and predatory and greedy.
You know whats greedy? People expecting others to provide them services for free especially when those services cost a lot of money to produce. Thats greedy.
A little more food for thought. The cost to produce a game has went up 500% or more( depending on the type of game) in the last 15 years. The cost to operate one has also increased by magnitudes more in the same time period. The average sub fee in 2003 was $15, the average sub fee in 2018 was $15. The average cost of an AAA game in 2003 was $60. The average cost of an AAA game in 2018 is $60. Wages have increased ~50% since 2003 but we still expect to pay 2003 prices for games and subs. Wait... who are the greedy ones again?3 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
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@Feanor the reason people want state prohibition is it would force the companies to stop and look for alternative means of monetisation without having us lose out by just refusing partake.I think these discussions are really sad. In former times people would protest if the state was to cut down on options and forbid something. These days people are calling for the state to do exactly that. One has really to wonder if legal prohibition is so popular because people don’t have to think and decide themselves any longer then.
Crown Crates for example have a lot of items people want but won't play the RNG game for. If we choose to not partake we simply don't get the items offered to us in a fair way.
By forcing companies (or if they ever can regulate themselves) to play fair and stick to direct sales it means we get to purchase the items for a flat fee we can see, we still make the choices but we're not manipulated and forced to spend unknown levels of money for something.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."7 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Turelus
That’s simply not true. You know very well how the discussions were when the crown store was introduced. And you know how they outcry is when they release a really expensive item (like the houses or some mounts). Everyone always assumes the game would still be profitable without revenue stream XY. We don’t know that. Would you rather play ESO with crown crates or no ESO at all?Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.2 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »Istoppucks wrote: »Pretty eye opening statistics that makes me never want to support this game ever again. I'll just leave this here and before all the you don't have to buy them comments. There is no defending this. I’m pretty sure they only give free crates out to trigger people to buy more once they’ve opened them. Didn’t get something you wanted? Maybe you’re more likely to get it next time. Got something good? Well why not just buy a few more in case you get something else you might like.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8dasjl/crown_crate_statistical_analysis_how_much_do/
Not eye opening at all.
Gambling is an addiction that will, in time, take everything from you. If you are an adult, you should know this. If you are a kid you should not be participating (hence all the legal hullabaloo going on right now.)
Eso is rated "M" if a kid is playing and spending his parents money Thats an issue for the parents not ZOS.
I like how people completely and utterly ignore that there is a world outside of the US. The rating for ESo in a lot of countries is 16. So there is that.
Eh...Puritanism never quite went away in the States. I LOVED it when I first moved to the EU, the differences were marked and welcome.
Yeah, I lived in WA state for 6 years, and after coming back to my birthcountry, i would never go back.
Back on topic tho, lol. I find it funny when people use the M rating as an argument. Gambling isnt allowed at 17 last time i checked, lol.
I've no idea on gambling ages since...I don't gamble. To me the difference here is when you go into a casino (or wherever) and start gaming, you can walk away with absolutely nothing whereas with the crates you'll always get something albeit not necessarily something über. Maybe I'm just too easily pleased.
That said I've reached a point where I almost wish they'd do away with the crates so we can find something else to be offended by.
The only time, aside from once, i would ever use my monthly crowns on crates is IF i had all my slots maxed out, i owned every mount available in the store , costume, personality, etc, then and ONLY then, would I even -consider- it, and im sure im not alone there.
As for the ages its 18 in some states, and 21 in others. Here in Germany its 18, and the game is rated 16.
Oh, obviously you aren't alone in that as these threads will attest. I have a go once a "season" these days, usually. I check what is possibly in there and judge from that. Rarely am I interested in the radiants because (sorry ZoS) they usually don't appeal to me at all. I call 'em the "TryHardMounts".
Some of them are cool, but lets be honest, spending an absurd amount of money for something you are just gonna lose anyway when the game goes offline, is silly, at best.
Eh, I see it differently. When the game finally shuts its doors (and that could be 10 to 20 years from now ala EQ, UO etc.) I will have enjoyed the...er...rental. Even at another 5 years, it'd be worth the cost to me, entertainment BUT, very, very few have any appeal to me.
yeah, i agree with that, but spending hundreds of euros to rent a mount is very silly. loll.0 -
DieAlteHexe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »Istoppucks wrote: »Pretty eye opening statistics that makes me never want to support this game ever again. I'll just leave this here and before all the you don't have to buy them comments. There is no defending this. I’m pretty sure they only give free crates out to trigger people to buy more once they’ve opened them. Didn’t get something you wanted? Maybe you’re more likely to get it next time. Got something good? Well why not just buy a few more in case you get something else you might like.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8dasjl/crown_crate_statistical_analysis_how_much_do/
Not eye opening at all.
Gambling is an addiction that will, in time, take everything from you. If you are an adult, you should know this. If you are a kid you should not be participating (hence all the legal hullabaloo going on right now.)
Eso is rated "M" if a kid is playing and spending his parents money Thats an issue for the parents not ZOS.
I like how people completely and utterly ignore that there is a world outside of the US. The rating for ESo in a lot of countries is 16. So there is that.
Eh...Puritanism never quite went away in the States. I LOVED it when I first moved to the EU, the differences were marked and welcome.
Yeah, I lived in WA state for 6 years, and after coming back to my birthcountry, i would never go back.
Back on topic tho, lol. I find it funny when people use the M rating as an argument. Gambling isnt allowed at 17 last time i checked, lol.
I've no idea on gambling ages since...I don't gamble. To me the difference here is when you go into a casino (or wherever) and start gaming, you can walk away with absolutely nothing whereas with the crates you'll always get something albeit not necessarily something über. Maybe I'm just too easily pleased.
That said I've reached a point where I almost wish they'd do away with the crates so we can find something else to be offended by.
The only time, aside from once, i would ever use my monthly crowns on crates is IF i had all my slots maxed out, i owned every mount available in the store , costume, personality, etc, then and ONLY then, would I even -consider- it, and im sure im not alone there.
As for the ages its 18 in some states, and 21 in others. Here in Germany its 18, and the game is rated 16.
Oh, obviously you aren't alone in that as these threads will attest. I have a go once a "season" these days, usually. I check what is possibly in there and judge from that. Rarely am I interested in the radiants because (sorry ZoS) they usually don't appeal to me at all. I call 'em the "TryHardMounts".
Some of them are cool, but lets be honest, spending an absurd amount of money for something you are just gonna lose anyway when the game goes offline, is silly, at best.
Eh, I see it differently. When the game finally shuts its doors (and that could be 10 to 20 years from now ala EQ, UO etc.) I will have enjoyed the...er...rental. Even at another 5 years, it'd be worth the cost to me, entertainment BUT, very, very few have any appeal to me.
yeah, i agree with that, but spending hundreds of euros to rent a mount is very silly. loll.
To you.
There are numerous things I think are silly in the game and cannot relate to why folks enjoy what they do but hey, to each their own. I'm not going to lobby to have things taken from them that I don't care for, tempted though I am sometimes.
Case in point...I think both BA and WC aren't attractive at all. I've sold on all that I've gotten in this event or given it to someone who really likes it. And the prices? I mean, these armor bits are "rented" too (everything in game is) but folks were paying (IMO) insane amounts of gold for them. To each their own.Edited by DieAlteHexe on April 20, 2018 2:44PM
Dirty, filthy casual aka Nancy, the Wallet Warrior Carebear Potato Whale Snowflake1 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
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The thing is those of use wiser understood why a Crown Store had to happen. I would much rather a simple sub and no store but that's unrealistic with ESO now on console.Turelus
That’s simply not true. You know very well how the discussions were when the crown store was introduced. And you know how they outcry is when they release a really expensive item (like the houses or some mounts). Everyone always assumes the game would still be profitable without revenue stream XY. We don’t know that. Would you rather play ESO with crown crates or no ESO at all?
The store when it launched was actually nice. I was quote happy with it, however since then it has progressively got worse and less consumer friendly.
I am not saying ESO would be more profitable without crates, clearly that's not the case. I think it would still be profitable enough to run and would be a damn lot more consumer friendly however.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."4 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Turelus
That’s simply not true. You know very well how the discussions were when the crown store was introduced. And you know how they outcry is when they release a really expensive item (like the houses or some mounts). Everyone always assumes the game would still be profitable without revenue stream XY. We don’t know that. Would you rather play ESO with crown crates or no ESO at all?
You make a comment about how people shouldn't assume, then make an assumption of your own (that ESO would shut down if CC weren't around).
When Crown Store came out, the concerns were mainly about the game offering high level gear in the store, effectively the arguments were about P2W. Most people didn't care about cosmetic items in the store. Please note, Crown Crates were not a thing at that point, though most predicted it was going to come at some point.
This isn't really a discussion of what generates more outcry; overpriced items or lootboxes. With overpriced items, at least you know exactly what you are getting and for what price, with RNG lootboxes you have no idea if you are spending $1 or $2000 for that item you want.
I really don't think these two things are equitable.
Again:
1. Game rating should include information that many items in game are only available through the purchase of Crown Crates, which use a random chance mechanic to determine what prizes you receive.
2. Odds of winning items should be posted for all to see, so informed decisions can be made.
1 -
Juju_beans✭✭✭✭✭
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The thing is those of use wiser understood why a Crown Store had to happen. I would much rather a simple sub and no store but that's unrealistic with ESO now on console.Turelus
That’s simply not true. You know very well how the discussions were when the crown store was introduced. And you know how they outcry is when they release a really expensive item (like the houses or some mounts). Everyone always assumes the game would still be profitable without revenue stream XY. We don’t know that. Would you rather play ESO with crown crates or no ESO at all?
The store when it launched was actually nice. I was quote happy with it, however since then it has progressively got worse and less consumer friendly.
I am not saying ESO would be more profitable without crates, clearly that's not the case. I think it would still be profitable enough to run and would be a damn lot more consumer friendly however.
Even with a mandatory sub loot boxes would still come to ESO. Almost every game has them now.
The revenue is just too good to pass up. Sad thing is that the players are supporting this and driving the trend.
Sometimes we are our own worst enemies.
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Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
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Agreed which is why I am saying to Feanor I would be happy for regulation to step in and force developers back into finding ways to fund gaming which isn't as predatory or underhanded and loot boxes.Juju_beans wrote: »
The thing is those of use wiser understood why a Crown Store had to happen. I would much rather a simple sub and no store but that's unrealistic with ESO now on console.Turelus
That’s simply not true. You know very well how the discussions were when the crown store was introduced. And you know how they outcry is when they release a really expensive item (like the houses or some mounts). Everyone always assumes the game would still be profitable without revenue stream XY. We don’t know that. Would you rather play ESO with crown crates or no ESO at all?
The store when it launched was actually nice. I was quote happy with it, however since then it has progressively got worse and less consumer friendly.
I am not saying ESO would be more profitable without crates, clearly that's not the case. I think it would still be profitable enough to run and would be a damn lot more consumer friendly however.
Even with a mandatory sub loot boxes would still come to ESO. Almost every game has them now.
The revenue is just too good to pass up. Sad thing is that the players are supporting this and driving the trend.
Sometimes we are our own worst enemies.
Other MMO games are doing fine with a Sub + Store or Store alone. ESO has the sub option (which many use) and the store which works. They would be fine without crates, they just can't resist them because of the money they make.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."3 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »DieAlteHexe wrote: »Istoppucks wrote: »Pretty eye opening statistics that makes me never want to support this game ever again. I'll just leave this here and before all the you don't have to buy them comments. There is no defending this. I’m pretty sure they only give free crates out to trigger people to buy more once they’ve opened them. Didn’t get something you wanted? Maybe you’re more likely to get it next time. Got something good? Well why not just buy a few more in case you get something else you might like.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8dasjl/crown_crate_statistical_analysis_how_much_do/
Not eye opening at all.
Gambling is an addiction that will, in time, take everything from you. If you are an adult, you should know this. If you are a kid you should not be participating (hence all the legal hullabaloo going on right now.)
Eso is rated "M" if a kid is playing and spending his parents money Thats an issue for the parents not ZOS.
I like how people completely and utterly ignore that there is a world outside of the US. The rating for ESo in a lot of countries is 16. So there is that.
Eh...Puritanism never quite went away in the States. I LOVED it when I first moved to the EU, the differences were marked and welcome.
Yeah, I lived in WA state for 6 years, and after coming back to my birthcountry, i would never go back.
Back on topic tho, lol. I find it funny when people use the M rating as an argument. Gambling isnt allowed at 17 last time i checked, lol.
I've no idea on gambling ages since...I don't gamble. To me the difference here is when you go into a casino (or wherever) and start gaming, you can walk away with absolutely nothing whereas with the crates you'll always get something albeit not necessarily something über. Maybe I'm just too easily pleased.
That said I've reached a point where I almost wish they'd do away with the crates so we can find something else to be offended by.
The only time, aside from once, i would ever use my monthly crowns on crates is IF i had all my slots maxed out, i owned every mount available in the store , costume, personality, etc, then and ONLY then, would I even -consider- it, and im sure im not alone there.
As for the ages its 18 in some states, and 21 in others. Here in Germany its 18, and the game is rated 16.
Oh, obviously you aren't alone in that as these threads will attest. I have a go once a "season" these days, usually. I check what is possibly in there and judge from that. Rarely am I interested in the radiants because (sorry ZoS) they usually don't appeal to me at all. I call 'em the "TryHardMounts".
Some of them are cool, but lets be honest, spending an absurd amount of money for something you are just gonna lose anyway when the game goes offline, is silly, at best.
Eh, I see it differently. When the game finally shuts its doors (and that could be 10 to 20 years from now ala EQ, UO etc.) I will have enjoyed the...er...rental. Even at another 5 years, it'd be worth the cost to me, entertainment BUT, very, very few have any appeal to me.
yeah, i agree with that, but spending hundreds of euros to rent a mount is very silly. loll.
To you.
There are numerous things I think are silly in the game and cannot relate to why folks enjoy what they do but hey, to each their own. I'm not going to lobby to have things taken from them that I don't care for, tempted though I am sometimes.
Case in point...I think both BA and WC aren't attractive at all. I've sold on all that I've gotten in this event or given it to someone who really likes it. And the prices? I mean, these armor bits are "rented" too (everything in game is) but folks were paying (IMO) insane amounts of gold for them. To each their own.
Exactly. I think the whole paying money hand over fist for vanity items is absolutely ridiculous. They have no purpose in game and definitely none in the real world. The only thing i can relate to as far as mounts is some mounts are annoying to ride. Like the dwarven nix ox. that thing drives me crazy to use it. I prefer horses or feline/canine type mounts because its a smoother ride and less annoying.
But i understand people have their "thing" they like to spend money on. I like RNG crates( just ESO crates arent that good because its all vanity). I like crate/box/chest chains. They are fun to open even though i dont use most of the stuff in them.
Its your money, spend it how you want. If you cant pay your electric bill this month because you overspent on pixels, well thats on you not me but at the end of the day its still your choice.
I also think BA is hideous. Havent checked out WC yet but im really not that big into vanity and such. BA is so annoyingly ugly, i avoid gear in that style like the plague. Ill pay more NOT to have gear in that style.1 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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You are aware how easy you can bypass gambling law with this argument?Istoppucks wrote: »Istoppucks wrote: »Pretty eye opening statistics that makes me never want to support this game ever again. I'll just leave this here and before all the you don't have to buy them comments. There is no defending this. I’m pretty sure they only give free crates out to trigger people to buy more once they’ve opened them. Didn’t get something you wanted? Maybe you’re more likely to get it next time. Got something good? Well why not just buy a few more in case you get something else you might like.
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8dasjl/crown_crate_statistical_analysis_how_much_do/
Not eye opening at all.
Gambling is an addiction that will, in time, take everything from you. If you are an adult, you should know this. If you are a kid you should not be participating (hence all the legal hullabaloo going on right now.)
Eso is rated "M" if a kid is playing and spending his parents money Thats an issue for the parents not ZOS.
Can you show me the part of the M rating that mentions gambling? I'll wait.
First go back and read the conversation not just knit pick one comment. He was crying about kids playing the game. The game is mature rated and its not ZOS fault if parents allow their kids to play a mature rated game.
Second according to the definition of "gamble" loot crates in eso are not gambling.
gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
Based on the legal definition of gambling multiple governments have come out and Stated loot boxes are not gambling .
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2017/12/16/16785474/loot-boxes-gambling-law-government-star-wars-battlefront-2
https://www.pcgamer.com/uk-gambling-commission-restates-that-loot-boxes-are-not-gambling/Istoppucks wrote: »Stewart1874 wrote: »Stewart1874 wrote: »
Virtually all new content is via Crown Crates, if you want to buy new content invariably you will need to buy crown crates to obtain that content.. sorry I mean have a chance of obtaining that conent. The decision to remove or fail to offer an alternative means to gain new content you're FORCED to gamble.
I'd class a 0.2% chance of getting a reward they use as their centre piece to the marketing campaign each Crown Crate run as ripping us off. (Unless Zo$ want to be transparent about their Crates and offer up the exact drop rates?)
You realise you're making excuses for a corporate entity right?
Wait what?
I didn't realize dragon bones DLC <BTW really good dungeons> is behind a crown crate.
I must have been really lucky. Everyone I know got it first timeDieAlteHexe wrote: »Stewart1874 wrote: »Thing is, ZOS isn't FORCING us to buy these crates. You can't blame something just for existing more than you can blame those who make the conscious choice to partake. And I at least know I'm not the one who's shoving hundreds into these crates. At MOST I've ever done is buy the 15 pack one time, I don't buy any more even if I don't get anything good. And even then most of these seasons so far didn't have stuff I wanted.
Zenimax is a business. As long as they're not downright ripping us off or committing fraud with our cash, they can do what they want.
Virtually all new content is via Crown Crates, if you want to buy new content invariably you will need to buy crown crates to obtain that content.. sorry I mean have a chance of obtaining that conent. The decision to remove or fail to offer an alternative means to gain new content you're FORCED to gamble.
I'd class a 0.2% chance of getting a reward they use as their centre piece to the marketing campaign each Crown Crate run as ripping us off. (Unless Zo$ want to be transparent about their Crates and offer up the exact drop rates?)
You realise you're making excuses for a corporate entity right?
What? Just today there was new stuff added that wasn't in Crown Crates. Costumes, dyes, pets etc.
I'm assuming english isn't your first language, First word of my post 'Virtually' means nearly or almost. I.e Nearly or Almost all content is behind the Crown Crates. That is an accurate view.Stewart1874 wrote: »Thing is, ZOS isn't FORCING us to buy these crates. You can't blame something just for existing more than you can blame those who make the conscious choice to partake. And I at least know I'm not the one who's shoving hundreds into these crates. At MOST I've ever done is buy the 15 pack one time, I don't buy any more even if I don't get anything good. And even then most of these seasons so far didn't have stuff I wanted.
Zenimax is a business. As long as they're not downright ripping us off or committing fraud with our cash, they can do what they want.
You realise you're making excuses for a corporate entity right?
One, I wrote no excuses. And two, what is that supposed to mean? You don't like corporations? They exist cause that's the wonderful world of Capitalism our forefathers created. And I'm not about to become a 99%er fanatic aiming to tear down Society so things can be different.
Everything obtainable via Crown Crates besides experience scrolls and the like are purely cosmetic additions. Everything concerning gameplay is still offered for base amounts to purchase to own. I'd be right there with you if I had to gamble to get access to Summerset, but I don't so I don't see an issue.
Those absolutely are excuses man! Don't lie
Regulated Capitalism is great, unregulated capitalism is not. Businesses have a responsibility to more than just their shareholders nowadays. Loot crates are gambling and in their current form unregulated. There is zero transparency or best practise standards on the implementation of them meaning like with Star Wars Battlefront 2 , companies want to see just how far they can push the consumer. I find that morally wrong. No one is saying Zo$ don't have a right to make money but the manner they choose to do it it leaves a very bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths.
My intention here is not to embarrass you (although im sure it will) it is to educate those like you.
Here are the FACTS Loot crates in most mmorpgs including eso are NOT gambling. In the real world FACTS are what matter not unhinged, uneducated emotions with a hint if bias, FACTS are what matter.
In most countries the LEGAL DEFINITION OF GAMBLE is:
gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
Based on the legal definition of gambling multiple governments have come out and Stated loot boxes are not gambling .
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2017/12/16/16785474/loot-boxes-gambling-law-government-star-wars-battlefront-2
https://www.pcgamer.com/uk-gambling-commission-restates-that-loot-boxes-are-not-gambling/
So please stop with this loot boxes are gambling because they are not.
First that was me commenting, I know exactly what I said. If you want to use the term "crying" then I am leaning towards you simply ad-hominem attacking me, which usually means you are feeling a little bit shaky with your argument. But it could be just that you are acting like a jerk.
My point was that parents can decide that they are OK with the animated violence and mature themes in ESO, which are pretty tame by most accounts. Even the "drug use" in the game isn't exactly hardcore. But the Mature rating does not mention "Players may be prompted to purchase loot crates with real money which have a random chance to win in-game items". So even parents who read the ESRB ratings do not have this information.
Also the second line in the article you posted:
"But the commission also acknowledged that the legal definition of gambling isn't necessarily the point." This is the point you are missing. "It's not reeaally gambling" *wink, wink* is just a lawyers way of arguing that their client never broke the law, and while true and no legal punishment should occur, society can still look at the facts and decide that the legal definition may need altering in order to fit the current situation better.
I will also point out that I have no problem from an ethical standpoint with loot crates existing in the game, my problem (you know, what I was crying about) is that the ESRB is a toothless, voluntary system that clearly does not give out all the information to make an informed decision, and that kids are in fact participating in activities, that while perhaps not meeting the legal definition of gambling, only a person with their eyes wide shut could argue are not very similar to gambling in practice.
Wording 101: "Loot crates are avaliable for purchase in game for real money. You're guaranteed 4 random items." There is no "random chance to win in-game items" involved with a crown crate. You purchase X crates. You're guaranteed AT LEAST 4 items per crate, which are randomly chosen from a predetermined and defined pool.
There is no gambling involved because you gain items for your money. You may not get what you WANT, but that doesn't make it gambling. It makes it random. You do not risk losing your money and receiving nothing.
Everybody who don't win get one nickel or similar, now its not gambling so you can freely run an casino.
That no real money involved not even in game currency is an stronger argument,
The Dutch ruling was about games there you could sell your rewards for real money, might even cover in game money as it can be converted to real even if not legal in game.
---
And the crown store is obviously to get profit for ZoS.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Jtj87✭✭✭I would be interested to know how many people are actually subbed to the game. Eso plus has had it's value increased dramatically since the beginning. The game is designed in a way to make inventory management a pain so you would sub for the craft bag and bank space, alone. Im just assuming but something tells me that the subscription model wasn't the problem. It was the different problems the game has and how little of value eso plus was worth at the time.
Access to all DLC game packs in the in-game Crown Store
1500 crowns for the in-game Crown Store every month
Access to the Craft Bag
Double bank space
10% increase to Experience gains
10% increase to Gold gains
10% increase to Crafting Inspiration gains
10% increase to Trait Research times
Extra furniture space
Costume dyeing
Double Transmutation CrystalsEdited by Jtj87 on April 20, 2018 5:48PM0 -
DieAlteHexe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I would be interested to know how many people are actually subbed to the game. Eso plus has had it's value increased dramatically since the beginning. The game is designed in a way to make inventory management a pain so you would sub for the craft bag and bank space, alone.
Access to all DLC game packs in the in-game Crown Store
1500 crowns for the in-game Crown Store every month
Access to the Craft Bag
Double bank space
10% increase to Experience gains
10% increase to Gold gains
10% increase to Crafting Inspiration gains
10% increase to Trait Research times
Extra furniture space
Costume dyeing
Double Transmutation Crystals
I'm a certified packrat, so yup, I sub. Well, not only for that but I will sub for a game that I get a lot of enjoyment from. It's even better when you get nice perks.
Dirty, filthy casual aka Nancy, the Wallet Warrior Carebear Potato Whale Snowflake0 -
Juju_beans✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm used to subbing for an MMO that offers future content.
ESO gives me extra perks with their sub.
I'm pretty happy with it as I like to farm and craft.
One could play ESO without the sub if you had the right playstyle...no crafting, harvest just ore/wood/cloth to sell, have one main and all the rest storage alts for gear sets. Doable for the right type of player.0 -
TelvanniWizard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Istoppucks wrote: »Stewart1874 wrote: »Stewart1874 wrote: »
Virtually all new content is via Crown Crates, if you want to buy new content invariably you will need to buy crown crates to obtain that content.. sorry I mean have a chance of obtaining that conent. The decision to remove or fail to offer an alternative means to gain new content you're FORCED to gamble.
I'd class a 0.2% chance of getting a reward they use as their centre piece to the marketing campaign each Crown Crate run as ripping us off. (Unless Zo$ want to be transparent about their Crates and offer up the exact drop rates?)
You realise you're making excuses for a corporate entity right?
Wait what?
I didn't realize dragon bones DLC <BTW really good dungeons> is behind a crown crate.
I must have been really lucky. Everyone I know got it first timeDieAlteHexe wrote: »Stewart1874 wrote: »Thing is, ZOS isn't FORCING us to buy these crates. You can't blame something just for existing more than you can blame those who make the conscious choice to partake. And I at least know I'm not the one who's shoving hundreds into these crates. At MOST I've ever done is buy the 15 pack one time, I don't buy any more even if I don't get anything good. And even then most of these seasons so far didn't have stuff I wanted.
Zenimax is a business. As long as they're not downright ripping us off or committing fraud with our cash, they can do what they want.
Virtually all new content is via Crown Crates, if you want to buy new content invariably you will need to buy crown crates to obtain that content.. sorry I mean have a chance of obtaining that conent. The decision to remove or fail to offer an alternative means to gain new content you're FORCED to gamble.
I'd class a 0.2% chance of getting a reward they use as their centre piece to the marketing campaign each Crown Crate run as ripping us off. (Unless Zo$ want to be transparent about their Crates and offer up the exact drop rates?)
You realise you're making excuses for a corporate entity right?
What? Just today there was new stuff added that wasn't in Crown Crates. Costumes, dyes, pets etc.
I'm assuming english isn't your first language, First word of my post 'Virtually' means nearly or almost. I.e Nearly or Almost all content is behind the Crown Crates. That is an accurate view.Stewart1874 wrote: »Thing is, ZOS isn't FORCING us to buy these crates. You can't blame something just for existing more than you can blame those who make the conscious choice to partake. And I at least know I'm not the one who's shoving hundreds into these crates. At MOST I've ever done is buy the 15 pack one time, I don't buy any more even if I don't get anything good. And even then most of these seasons so far didn't have stuff I wanted.
Zenimax is a business. As long as they're not downright ripping us off or committing fraud with our cash, they can do what they want.
You realise you're making excuses for a corporate entity right?
One, I wrote no excuses. And two, what is that supposed to mean? You don't like corporations? They exist cause that's the wonderful world of Capitalism our forefathers created. And I'm not about to become a 99%er fanatic aiming to tear down Society so things can be different.
Everything obtainable via Crown Crates besides experience scrolls and the like are purely cosmetic additions. Everything concerning gameplay is still offered for base amounts to purchase to own. I'd be right there with you if I had to gamble to get access to Summerset, but I don't so I don't see an issue.
Those absolutely are excuses man! Don't lie
Regulated Capitalism is great, unregulated capitalism is not. Businesses have a responsibility to more than just their shareholders nowadays. Loot crates are gambling and in their current form unregulated. There is zero transparency or best practise standards on the implementation of them meaning like with Star Wars Battlefront 2 , companies want to see just how far they can push the consumer. I find that morally wrong. No one is saying Zo$ don't have a right to make money but the manner they choose to do it it leaves a very bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths.
My intention here is not to embarrass you (although im sure it will) it is to educate those like you.
Here are the FACTS Loot crates in most mmorpgs including eso are NOT gambling. In the real world FACTS are what matter not unhinged, uneducated emotions with a hint if bias, FACTS are what matter.
In most countries the LEGAL DEFINITION OF GAMBLE is:
gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1. play games of chance for MONEY; bet.
Based on the legal definition of gambling multiple governments have come out and Stated loot boxes are not gambling .
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2017/12/16/16785474/loot-boxes-gambling-law-government-star-wars-battlefront-2
https://www.pcgamer.com/uk-gambling-commission-restates-that-loot-boxes-are-not-gambling/
So please stop with this loot boxes are gambling because they are not.
Educate us? Don´t make me laugh man. Here, this can surely be more instructive about scam crates and gambling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc3tR8pYZdM 0 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stewart1874 wrote: »
I think the correlation between kinder eggs and Happy meal toys is ludicrous and not comparable. In both instances you are buying food and being given a random toy for purchasing the food. Trading cards I had a look online and the answer to that appears to basically be that they're not harmful enough to be considered gambling.
People buy hundreds of packs of trading cards for those games. Some buy them by the case. And they have that possibility to pull out a Awesome Super Rare card that you can sell for $$$. Soooo.....
(I've owned and played many CCGs over the years. As I mentioned somewhere else, I still have like 10-12k Magic the Gathering cards from back in the day.)First, I would like to note that all the things you listed are sellable and tradeable, whereas everything you buy in the store in bound to you and your account.
And yet, that was the key point the Dutch seem to have gone after - the loot boxes that they declared "bad" were the ones that people could sell the stuff on third-party trading sites for real cash. ie, people were gambling for real money.
Cosmetic loot crates in this game and similar ones, don't fit that definition of gambling. You always get something. You may not value it, but that doesn't mean it has no value. They may be stupid purchases and they may be designed to appeal to gambling addiction reflexes.... but they're not actually "gambling" by the legal definitions of many places.
(As an aside - card packs? That "ooh, what's in this next one!" impulse is definitely a thing. I've bought highly-discounted boxes of discontinued card games, that I was unlikely to ever find someone to play with, and gotten my money's worth out of the fun of opening the packs and seeing what they contained. $5-10 for a box of 36 packs, it's cheap entertainment. Card packs also hit the "gotta catch 'em all" collecting impulse that many humans have - Beanie Babies, baseball cards, pogs, achievements, action figures... no matter what it is, someone out there is collecting it.)0 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anotherone773 wrote: »
10 million accounts... 150mil/month.Just think ,,,,all those "whales" buying the crates are helping fund this game so you can play. Subs alone can't pay for everything so to get extra revenue the crown shop is needed. Beside no one can tell me how I can spend my money that I earn through work
Pretty sure subs could cover the cost of ESO if everyone paid them and kept playing.
They use the WOW method, which is misleading. The game has had 10 million copies sold. That is not the number of people that play. A realistic number of unique accounts that login per month is probably in the neighborhood of 500k across all platforms. That will drop to somewhere between 150k-250k, so we will say somewhere between $2 and $4 million a month.
On another note for those that think that these games are cheap to run and companies are just super greedy for trying to get you to open your wallet:
Just to operate 1000 servers can cost $300k plus a month alone just for electricity. ESO will have far more than a thousand servers. Here is an example of what it took to run WoW long before ESO was made..."WoW’s infrastructure includes 13,250 server blades, 75,000 CPU cores, and 112.5 terabytes of blade RAM." That was from somewhere in 2006-2008 era.
ESO is far more complex game world that requires far more processing power. More processing power means more electric. It takes massive amounts of electric just to run the servers and their cooling fans. Then you have bandwidth. First the servers require a backbone link. They dont just call up the local cable provider and order 10 packages and call it a day. They need Tbps of bandwidth.
Then you have the hardware itself. A lowend server is still 6 figures just for the hardware. They will have millions and million of dollars just in hardware. Eve upgraded some of their servers a few years ago, the upgrades cost half a million dollars. Thats not to replace them, just upgrade them and they didnt upgrade all of their servers.
Then you have the room the servers are contained in. They arent in someones basement. Servers generate a lot of heat. They will likely be in a subterranean room that is basically a climate controlled clean room. A little bit of static electricity can destroy millions of dollars worth of equipment. The room will have the humidity controlled, have a large amount of ventilation and have its own HVAC systems to keep the room cool and remove the massive amount of heat the servers produce.
All of those costs and we didnt even make it out of the server room. MMOs are high risk and require a lot of capital. They have a very high daily operating cost.
And its all so we can sit on the forums and complain about how unfair it is we cant get the horsy we want because its in a chance crate and we dont want to play a game of chance and its not fair and predatory and greedy.
You know whats greedy? People expecting others to provide them services for free especially when those services cost a lot of money to produce. Thats greedy.
A little more food for thought. The cost to produce a game has went up 500% or more( depending on the type of game) in the last 15 years. The cost to operate one has also increased by magnitudes more in the same time period. The average sub fee in 2003 was $15, the average sub fee in 2018 was $15. The average cost of an AAA game in 2003 was $60. The average cost of an AAA game in 2018 is $60. Wages have increased ~50% since 2003 but we still expect to pay 2003 prices for games and subs. Wait... who are the greedy ones again?
And then someone goes and looks up how much the company is worth.....they are NOT hurting for money. This game is turning a profit.They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd0 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Stewart1874 wrote: »
I think the correlation between kinder eggs and Happy meal toys is ludicrous and not comparable. In both instances you are buying food and being given a random toy for purchasing the food. Trading cards I had a look online and the answer to that appears to basically be that they're not harmful enough to be considered gambling.
People buy hundreds of packs of trading cards for those games. Some buy them by the case. And they have that possibility to pull out a Awesome Super Rare card that you can sell for $$$. Soooo.....
Speaking of card packs and hoping for that Amazing Card Draw.... old MtG packs? They can get pretty expensive.
The original print run of Magic is divided up into Alpha and Beta (there's a slight difference in the radius of the card corners, so you can tell the difference.) A single Beta booster pack, 15 cards, originally $2.45 retail? They're on eBay for $3000+. Another game seller will sell you a box of 36 for $85K (but they're out of stock - they'll pay $52k for yours).
Because there's a chance that each pack might have one of the Big Cards in it. Odds are low - there's 1 rare card in a pack, and there were ~100 rares total in the set.
Pay $3k for a chance at your pack containing a card worth $10-15k? Or you could get a rare card that's only worth $30 (because it was total garbage). Is that gambling?0 -
Wrubius_Coronaria✭✭✭✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »
10 million accounts... 150mil/month.Just think ,,,,all those "whales" buying the crates are helping fund this game so you can play. Subs alone can't pay for everything so to get extra revenue the crown shop is needed. Beside no one can tell me how I can spend my money that I earn through work
Pretty sure subs could cover the cost of ESO if everyone paid them and kept playing.
They use the WOW method, which is misleading. The game has had 10 million copies sold. That is not the number of people that play. A realistic number of unique accounts that login per month is probably in the neighborhood of 500k across all platforms. That will drop to somewhere between 150k-250k, so we will say somewhere between $2 and $4 million a month.
On another note for those that think that these games are cheap to run and companies are just super greedy for trying to get you to open your wallet:
Just to operate 1000 servers can cost $300k plus a month alone just for electricity. ESO will have far more than a thousand servers. Here is an example of what it took to run WoW long before ESO was made..."WoW’s infrastructure includes 13,250 server blades, 75,000 CPU cores, and 112.5 terabytes of blade RAM." That was from somewhere in 2006-2008 era.
ESO is far more complex game world that requires far more processing power. More processing power means more electric. It takes massive amounts of electric just to run the servers and their cooling fans. Then you have bandwidth. First the servers require a backbone link. They dont just call up the local cable provider and order 10 packages and call it a day. They need Tbps of bandwidth.
Then you have the hardware itself. A lowend server is still 6 figures just for the hardware. They will have millions and million of dollars just in hardware. Eve upgraded some of their servers a few years ago, the upgrades cost half a million dollars. Thats not to replace them, just upgrade them and they didnt upgrade all of their servers.
Then you have the room the servers are contained in. They arent in someones basement. Servers generate a lot of heat. They will likely be in a subterranean room that is basically a climate controlled clean room. A little bit of static electricity can destroy millions of dollars worth of equipment. The room will have the humidity controlled, have a large amount of ventilation and have its own HVAC systems to keep the room cool and remove the massive amount of heat the servers produce.
All of those costs and we didnt even make it out of the server room. MMOs are high risk and require a lot of capital. They have a very high daily operating cost.
And its all so we can sit on the forums and complain about how unfair it is we cant get the horsy we want because its in a chance crate and we dont want to play a game of chance and its not fair and predatory and greedy.
You know whats greedy? People expecting others to provide them services for free especially when those services cost a lot of money to produce. Thats greedy.
A little more food for thought. The cost to produce a game has went up 500% or more( depending on the type of game) in the last 15 years. The cost to operate one has also increased by magnitudes more in the same time period. The average sub fee in 2003 was $15, the average sub fee in 2018 was $15. The average cost of an AAA game in 2003 was $60. The average cost of an AAA game in 2018 is $60. Wages have increased ~50% since 2003 but we still expect to pay 2003 prices for games and subs. Wait... who are the greedy ones again?
Funny how you are ignoring (intended for trying for prove your point your of view?) a lot of factors and changes in video game industry and market. I'll pass the part talking about servers and cost, it's just speculation and we have no informations about it.
- The amount of money earned by each copy of video game is higher than what it was in 2003. (dlc, season pass, microtransactions, and so on...) Even if the cost for base game and subscription stay the same (which is not really true), they are earning more money with the things mentionned above. And the size of the market has increased a lot, which is not something marginal like it was in the past.
- better tools and technology for developpement and coding. (even if games are more complex nowadays)
- the worldwide market income of video game exceeds 100 billions in 2017. https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-12-20-gamesindustry-biz-presents-the-year-in-numbers-2017
I'm quite sure the crown crate (and gambling in general in others video games) are not vital at all for keeping their game alive, but just another easy way for increase their income with a really low cost. (I've read somewhere it was 24 billions earned with loot boxes in 2017 if i remember correctly)
And when I read some compagnies are making more money with loot boxes than selling games, there is a serious problem with it.
https://gamerant.com/ubisoft-microtransaction-sales/
I can affirm without any doubt, loot boxes are not vital and are pure greed from companies.Edited by Wrubius_Coronaria on April 20, 2018 11:52PM0 -
Gnyxl✭Don't like Crown Crates? Don't buy them! Simple! Who cares if ESO sells them! I have never once bought one! No one is forcing anyone to do so!1 -
DanteYoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Its gambling...
The house always wins..Just think ,,,,all those "whales" buying the crates are helping fund this game so you can play. Subs alone can't pay for everything so to get extra revenue the crown shop is needed. Beside no one can tell me how I can spend my money that I earn through work
No they are helping fund Zenimax Shareholders of which 99% of all the money goes too... Seriously this game rakes in billions, do you really think summerset and Morrowind or even every aspect of the game even makes a dent into that.. if you do you are delusional.Edited by DanteYoda on April 21, 2018 1:31AM1 -
Itacira✭✭✭✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »Eh...Puritanism never quite went away in the States. I LOVED it when I first moved to the EU, the differences were marked and welcome.
I'm... very much from the EU, I've never set one foot in the USA (or any Anglo-saxon country) and yet I agree with the argument that random loot boxes paid with REAL MONEY are definitely exploiting the psychology behind gambling.
Unless... Maybe I've been lied to all my life
maybe I wasn't born in the EU PC/EU - PVE 2H stam orc petsorc (meta, what meta?) ww - terrible dps - mediocre player - fun times - free ww bites to whomever asks so don't be shy if interested2 -
DieAlteHexe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DieAlteHexe wrote: »Eh...Puritanism never quite went away in the States. I LOVED it when I first moved to the EU, the differences were marked and welcome.
I'm... very much from the EU, I've never set one foot in the USA (or any Anglo-saxon country) and yet I agree with the argument that random loot boxes paid with REAL MONEY are definitely exploiting the psychology behind gambling.
Unless... Maybe I've been lied to all my life maybe I wasn't born in the EU
Oh well...just shows that we all have opinions, no matter where we live.
Dirty, filthy casual aka Nancy, the Wallet Warrior Carebear Potato Whale Snowflake0
