Mountains, mountains and... more mountains. Vvardenfell vol. 2.

Marabornwingrion

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

That's a very generous map of yours. Mine's even worse - although allegedly there are some areas accessible through specific quests, which I haven't found so far.

Welcome to "Chapters." DLCs that you pay extra for because ZOS decided to betray subscribers and go back on its promise to deliver 4DLC per quarter.

Aliyavana wrote: »

Someone made a meme where they put huge volcanos in orsinium, I'm wondering if they'll do the same for summerset

Paging @MisterBigglesworth

are we having fun yet?

These memes are getting better every time xD

Lysette

Jhalin wrote: »

After scaling the maps based on town size, the world map should display Summerset about 25% smaller than it's currently being shown

1: The world map with direct overlays. The visual scale discrepancies are pretty clear here


2: checking town sizes and scale discrepancies, included all beachfront and docks for the towns sizing. Based on PTS experience, the Summerset towns are the same size or smaller than Skywatch in horizontal space taken, Summerset towns have much more verticality and winding corridors.


3: scaled summerset zone based on town sizes. Even very forgiving size references show a major problem in how the zone was designed.

This is about correct - I just visited auridon today again and it feels bigger than summerset - much bigger - and it should be smaller. Summerset is just not as big as it is meant to be and it does not feel big as well, when you are there.

red_emu

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

That's a very generous map of yours. Mine's even worse - although allegedly there are some areas accessible through specific quests, which I haven't found so far.

Welcome to "Chapters." DLCs that you pay extra for because ZOS decided to betray subscribers and go back on its promise to deliver 4DLC per quarter.

Aliyavana wrote: »

Someone made a meme where they put huge volcanos in orsinium, I'm wondering if they'll do the same for summerset

Paging @MisterBigglesworth

are we having fun yet?

You forgot to add another volcano in the north of Summerset.

Lore wise... no wonder the Altmer had their borders closed for so long! Visitors would be disappointed with the amount of climbing and slow-motion frozen ragdoll falling.

I will just pretend that my Altmer character left Summerset as a child and you know how everything you remember from childhood seemed bigger? Yes. That's a good back story!

TelvanniWizard

XomRhoK wrote: »

Dominoid wrote: »

I've seen people trying to compare two different maps without taking scale into account. That's like taking a map of the world that is 10" x 10" and comparing it to a map of my city that is 12" x 12" and declaring my city is larger, because the map is larger.

Looking at a map of Auridon and a map of Summerset and comparing just the map size is . . . well . . wrong.

You need to know the scale of the map. For that we have two options. The first is number of in-game cells which to the engine is a standard unit of measure. Vvardenfell is 81 x 81. Summerset is 144 x 144. Can't find base-game zone sizes right now.


The second is to measure how how far one walks on the Tamriel map over a fixed set of time. For example getting an assist from Map Coordinates and walking in one direction for ten seconds in Vvardenfell you traverse 1.4958 Tamriel map units. Doing so in Summerset, you traverse 1.2179. Doing so in Auridon, you traverse 1.7084 units. This makes the scale of Summerset 40.27% larger than Auridon. That would look like this:



Are there mountains? Yep. Can you get UNDER those mountains (no spoilers)? Yep. . . . maybe I'll do more. And Don't forget about Arteum as a zone too which is part of Summerset the Chapter.

I think your assumptions is wrong. If in-game cells is a standart unit of measure, then at any map, travel distance will be the same, cause it's standart. Or you'll need to rescale all 3D objects and speed at different maps, that no one will do. I think something else is a standart and in-game cells are scaleable.

I took ships in docks as reference point, cause they use same model like in Auridon, and rescaled maps accordingly.

Shinni wrote: »

My addon HarvestMap has to measure the zone, so it can properly display 3D pins and compute distance between resources etc.
When I debugged HarvestMap to track the new jewelry resources, I realized that the size of the zone does not match the size of the 2D map.
Using the addon API, you can compute that Summerset is 84% of its size compared to the Tamriel map.

Then i additionally rescaled Summerset map using this information. It seems correct considering a little different shape of the island.

This. So much this.

Lexynide

This entire endeavor of an "expansion" is practically a scam on the ZOS part.

They had all the money earned from Morrowind expansion, they had all the money earned from Crown Store and ESO+ subscription.

We were given a promise of "new Vvardenfell". And the best they could give us is another Auridon.
And to make things even worse - it's not even that great. All we got is one fancy human-looking city that isn't even that great. We haven't got anything breathtaking as it was described in the lore. And they dare to make up excuses like "Tamriel is pretty mundane at it's core".

Yet 'mundane' things like Ashlander tribes in TES3: Morrowind felt unique and this feels like the most generic low-effort fantasy land ever possible.

Benemime

Summerset is definitely smaller than Auridon.

By just comparing the roads from Auridon to summerset: Auridon has very thin roads displayed on its maps, while Summerset displays the roads as much thickier:

This shows that summerset is scaled to look like if it was bigger on tamriel map compared to auridon, but it's actually not. It should be compared to a DLC size instead. Auridon is filled with things, that's why the roads are so thin compared to everything else, because it has larger places and big cities and all. Auridon has much more things going on than Summerset.

Seraphayel

I find it hilarious how some are trying to defend ZOS' Summerset design approach.

Hey guys, it is no free or ESO+ zone, it's something that costs as much as an expansion in other AAA MMOs. There's absolutely no excuse or justification for this.

I already preordered the CE because I love the statue and the journal but I really think about abandoning my order because this time ZOS really is overstepping the mark and my good will.

Nestor

Benemime wrote: »

Summerset is definitely smaller than Auridon.

By just comparing the roads from Auridon to summerset: Auridon has very thin roads displayed on its maps, while Summerset displays the roads as much thickier:

That is because the roads are drawn thicker on the map. The maps you see are not a thumbnail of the zone, they are a separately drawn object. So you can't use the roads for a comparison. Use the Ships as suggested above.

Khairiah

Have no access to PTS, but Summerset does appear to be really small and inaccessable, due to the fact its a chapter and was promised to be the biggest area yet.

Hail Orsinium, best DLC by miles!

ParaNostram

I'd rather the zone be filled with delves and dungeons like Craglorn was.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

FloppyTouch wrote: »

I don't want summerset at all like i just don't care about quest or the land and lore I'll run through it just for something to do but i want jewelry crafting so i have to buy it.

@FloppyTouch Suggestion: wait for it to go on sale. Then you get the content and they don't get full price for it. Last year Morrowind went on sale fairly soon after it was released. Jewelry looks like it's going to be a sufficient grind that you can probably spend the interim saving up deconnable rings and might actually be able to level your skill and have a tidy pile of mats to use once you do buy it.

Betsararie

What is it about ZOS where they can't deliver adequate value in these 'chapter' expansions?

WildRaptorX

Imagine how they’re going to butcher a Skyrim expansion

inespeloazul

In my experience--from running around the island on the PTS--the explorable parts of the overland zone seem to be at least as big as Auridon, even with the mountains in the way.

Marabornwingrion

Keylun wrote: »

Imagine how they’re going to butcher a Skyrim expansion

What? Skyrim will get dlc?

Jolipinator

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

I don't want summerset at all like i just don't care about quest or the land and lore I'll run through it just for something to do but i want jewelry crafting so i have to buy it.

@FloppyTouch Suggestion: wait for it to go on sale. Then you get the content and they don't get full price for it. Last year Morrowind went on sale fairly soon after it was released. Jewelry looks like it's going to be a sufficient grind that you can probably spend the interim saving up deconnable rings and might actually be able to level your skill and have a tidy pile of mats to use once you do buy it.

This is 100% pure uncut unadulterated undiluted undervalued understandable advice. Very rare on this forum.

psychotrip

Turelus wrote: »

I know we want playable areas and all but... they can't just remove mountains and volcanos from the world to make every section of every map explorable.

How many inside or separate from the base zone areas are there to explore?

These mountains were never part of Summerset before though (except Eton Nir of course). ZOS decided to add these giant mountains. It's not a matter of established lore or geography.

inespeloazul

psychotrip wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I know we want playable areas and all but... they can't just remove mountains and volcanos from the world to make every section of every map explorable.

How many inside or separate from the base zone areas are there to explore?

These mountains were never part of Summerset before though (except Eton Nir of course). ZOS decided to add these giant mountains. It's not a matter of established lore or geography.

Not entirely true. They said they based it off of Arena's map, and tbh? It is pretty close to what we got.

alephthiago

TBH my complain goes a little further, the path between delves, landmarks and cities is so....empty, looks like the Dark Brotherhood DLC where outside the cities there isnt much other than grass and rocks...

Wrubius_Coronaria

Astrid_V wrote: »

If you thought Vvardenfell was just Orsinium with volcano on top, look at Summerset map.



I spent quite a lot of time and explored as much as I could on my mount and feet. These areas are not accessible, they are just mountains blocking everything.
I'm sick of it, everytime ZOS is too lazy to put more content in DLCs / Chapters, they just put bunch of mountains so the map looks less empty.

I don't care if these mountains are for immersion, more beautiful views or whatever.
I prefer Summerset to be completely flat like a damn desert, BUT at least filled with quests and other activities in these areas.

Honestly, I think everyone should rejoice about it, it will give us more opportunities to do more out of the map explorations.

MisterBigglesworth

red_emu wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

That's a very generous map of yours. Mine's even worse - although allegedly there are some areas accessible through specific quests, which I haven't found so far.

Welcome to "Chapters." DLCs that you pay extra for because ZOS decided to betray subscribers and go back on its promise to deliver 4DLC per quarter.

Aliyavana wrote: »

Someone made a meme where they put huge volcanos in orsinium, I'm wondering if they'll do the same for summerset

Paging @MisterBigglesworth

are we having fun yet?

You forgot to add another volcano in the north of Summerset.

Lore wise... no wonder the Altmer had their borders closed for so long! Visitors would be disappointed with the amount of climbing and slow-motion frozen ragdoll falling.

I will just pretend that my Altmer character left Summerset as a child and you know how everything you remember from childhood seemed bigger? Yes. That's a good back story!

Okay, I added another volcano. Unfortunately I also set off an irreversible chain of events.
So here it is: The Third and Final Chapter of the Elder Scrolls Online Saga...

ThumbtackJake

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

red_emu wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

That's a very generous map of yours. Mine's even worse - although allegedly there are some areas accessible through specific quests, which I haven't found so far.

Welcome to "Chapters." DLCs that you pay extra for because ZOS decided to betray subscribers and go back on its promise to deliver 4DLC per quarter.

Aliyavana wrote: »

Someone made a meme where they put huge volcanos in orsinium, I'm wondering if they'll do the same for summerset

Paging @MisterBigglesworth

are we having fun yet?

You forgot to add another volcano in the north of Summerset.

Lore wise... no wonder the Altmer had their borders closed for so long! Visitors would be disappointed with the amount of climbing and slow-motion frozen ragdoll falling.

I will just pretend that my Altmer character left Summerset as a child and you know how everything you remember from childhood seemed bigger? Yes. That's a good back story!

Okay, I added another volcano. Unfortunately I also set off an irreversible chain of events.
So here it is: The Third and Final Chapter of the Elder Scrolls Online Saga...

That's amazing.

psychotrip

Jhalin wrote: »

After scaling the maps based on town size, the world map should display Summerset about 25% smaller than it's currently being shown

1: The world map with direct overlays. The visual scale discrepancies are pretty clear here


2: checking town sizes and scale discrepancies, included all beachfront and docks for the towns sizing. Based on PTS experience, the Summerset towns are the same size or smaller than Skywatch in horizontal space taken, Summerset towns have much more verticality and winding corridors.


3: scaled summerset zone based on town sizes. Even very forgiving size references show a major problem in how the zone was designed.

Oh my God this is hilarious. They actually took the time to falsely scale the map because they knew they made it too small.

Adernath wrote: »

I would have no issue if they simply would admit: Hey guys the area is just too large for 1 year of development, so we have to put some invisible walls at the border of the map. Actually, they should have put invisible walls already around the Gold Coast rather than building a Chinese Wall.

As I saw the size of Summerset in the original world maps my thought was: Wow if they really managed to create the entire island this would be a very large expansion. Later on I thought that they might only create half its size and put some invisible walls or a mountain divide.

But now we have the entire island in form of a rather small area. I think we really have had enough of these 'translation errors' recently ... Also the community suggestion made in this thread

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/402045/summerset-architecture/p1

seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

Now I hope that the inaccessible areas can get some love in a later expansion of this chapter at least.

This is the real sticking point. I could tolerate this if they were only giving us a small portion of Summerset like they did with The Gold Coast. But it just feels like they're trying to wash their hands of the entire High Elf experience and move onto something else as fast as they can.

psychotrip

Turelus wrote: »

ZiRM wrote: »

This is gonna cost them a few sales and *** alot of people off.

Because that happened with Morrowind where people complained about the exact same thing right?

Turelus wrote: »

ZiRM wrote: »

This is gonna cost them a few sales and *** alot of people off.

Because that happened with Morrowind where people complained about the exact same thing right?

Adernath wrote: »

I would have no issue if they simply would admit: Hey guys the area is just too large for 1 year of development, so we have to put some invisible walls at the border of the map. Actually, they should have put invisible walls already around the Gold Coast rather than building a Chinese Wall.

As I saw the size of Summerset in the original world maps my thought was: Wow if they really managed to create the entire island this would be a very large expansion. Later on I thought that they might only create half its size and put some invisible walls or a mountain divide.

But now we have the entire island in form of a rather small area. I think we really have had enough of these 'translation errors' recently ... Also the community suggestion made in this thread

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/402045/summerset-architecture/p1

seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

Now I hope that the inaccessible areas can get some love in a later expansion of this chapter at least.

DoccEff wrote: »

ZO$ is lying again, but they will get away with it, again. Too many people have already preordered because of that silly mount, and because jewlery crafting is behind that paywall. Cash is flowing.

"All future content will be included in ESO plus" LIE.
"Summerset will be the biggest zone so far." LIE.
I don't even start with gambling crates.

Looks like Orsinium/Wrothgar will forever stay the best ESO-expansion.

Meh. Eventually reputation matters. Quality matters. Truth matters. Even if a bunch of people bought Morrowind, and a bunch of people are gonna buy this, if the trend continues we'll inevitably start seeing diminishing returns. This won't be the first time that's happened to an "invincible", popular IP, and it won't be the last.


ZOS will learn its lesson, or people will stop caring.

EchoirVarsoj

That looks dissapointing.

It would be cool if they could add some content to the new chapters after they are released. But I suppose Summerset has already plenty of content.

eklhaftb16_ESO

So it is true, then? We've been had? Again?
I wonder what mount are they giving us this year to make us shut up. Gotta admit, the nix-ox was quite nifty.

MalakithAlamahdi

Man. ESO has a lot to learn when it comes to adding new zones. The first DLC for GW2 was about the same price but about 5 times this size. We need more dlc's like Orsinium, that one was awesome!

psychotrip

Lexynide wrote: »

This entire endeavor of an "expansion" is practically a scam on the ZOS part.

They had all the money earned from Morrowind expansion, they had all the money earned from Crown Store and ESO+ subscription.

We were given a promise of "new Vvardenfell". And the best they could give us is another Auridon.
And to make things even worse - it's not even that great. All we got is one fancy human-looking city that isn't even that great. We haven't got anything breathtaking as it was described in the lore. And they dare to make up excuses like "Tamriel is pretty mundane at it's core".

Yet 'mundane' things like Ashlander tribes in TES3: Morrowind felt unique and this feels like the most generic low-effort fantasy land ever possible.

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

Man. ESO has a lot to learn when it comes to adding new zones. The first DLC for GW2 was about the same price but about 5 times this size. We need more dlc's like Orsinium, that one was awesome!

Meanwhile even WoW has a new city that's probably half the size of Summerset from what I've seen of it so far. Packed with diverse, engaging quests (not just "go here, kill this"), expansive worldbuilding, new models for monsters, tons of npcs just for immersion's sake.

I was just chasing around tiny dinosaurs who were stealing from shop-keepers, only to come across the god of scavengers who turned me into a tiny dinosaur so I'd understand what it's like to be a scavenger and give me a taste of my own medicine.

Later I was chasing down some orphan kids who were stealing magic scrolls for a ***-esque thief-king. In order to blend in, I was transformed into little troll child myself to infiltrate their gang.

And this is just one city within one zone, within one of two new continents.

How much are they charging for this?

Edit: Holy crap ZOS you have a hateful mind. I'm talking about the character from Oliver Twist, for Christ's sake.

Edit again: I swear they censored the word "***"

MalakithAlamahdi

psychotrip wrote: »

Lexynide wrote: »

This entire endeavor of an "expansion" is practically a scam on the ZOS part.

They had all the money earned from Morrowind expansion, they had all the money earned from Crown Store and ESO+ subscription.

We were given a promise of "new Vvardenfell". And the best they could give us is another Auridon.
And to make things even worse - it's not even that great. All we got is one fancy human-looking city that isn't even that great. We haven't got anything breathtaking as it was described in the lore. And they dare to make up excuses like "Tamriel is pretty mundane at it's core".

Yet 'mundane' things like Ashlander tribes in TES3: Morrowind felt unique and this feels like the most generic low-effort fantasy land ever possible.

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

Man. ESO has a lot to learn when it comes to adding new zones. The first DLC for GW2 was about the same price but about 5 times this size. We need more dlc's like Orsinium, that one was awesome!

Meanwhile even WoW has a new city that's probably half the size of Summerset from what I've seen of it so far. Packed with diverse, wacky quests (not just "go here, kill this"), expansive worldbuilding, new models for monsters, tons of npcs giving just for immersion's sake.

I was chasing around tiny dinosaurs who were stealing from shop-keepers, only to come across the god of scavengers who turned me into a tiny dinosaur so I'd understand what it's like to be a scavenger and give me a taste of my own medicine.

And this is just one city within one zone, within one of two new continents.

How much are they charging for this?

Yea, it's a bit underwhelming. GW2 added a new zone about 5 times this size, a new class, gliders, new story line and quests, new items, and 3 new skill trees for every class. It's a bit saddening how fast the dlc quality went down since Orsinium.

Faulgor

What baffles me is: What is ZOS actually working on?

We already "lost" one content DLC this year and got a dungeon DLC instead (plus presumably another one in Q3), and just assumed that working on the new chapter (Summerset) cost ZOS more development time. But instead, Summerset is even thinner than last year's Morrowind, with less land area, assets and world detail put into it - as much as I love the redacted. Which they obviously recognize themselves by pricing it 25% cheaper.

So, are they working on something bigger that costs them too much resources?
Do they even have anyone still working on new content?
Or are they just dedicated to the Crown Store now?