Is there “actually” cheating in PvP?

Karivaa

I’ve played pvp since the game was released on Xbox. The only cheating I know about is ap boosting. I’ve seen it. Zoe does nothing about it. I have never seen lag switches, but have heard about them on Xbox.

Mauz

ESO PC stores data client side, there are 3rd party tools to manipulate this data, ZoS does not seem to be able to detect these tools.

Why shouldnt there be cheating?

Sanctum74

GreenhaloX wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

I play on PS4, so I imagine if there WERE cheating, it’d be more prevalent on PC. Also, I’ve never witnessed anything I’d consider “cheating.” Some players are just exceptionally good at PvP.

But I’ve been playing I’m Cyrodil quite a bit lately, and still hear the same “oh that guy’s cheating!” These aren’t even said in jest, but legitimate absolute beliefs that the other player is cheating (which is of course why they died).

So...is this actually real? Do people actually have ways to cheat in the game?

Note: I’m not including exploits.

So have you actually experienced this?

Yeah, man, been instances on PS4 where a soloing dude/toon has taken out 6, 8, 10 and more toons/players all by himself. When one can mitigate such barrage of incoming damages from 6 or more toons/players, yet, able to dish out the damages enough to knock out all the others; well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist here. You play long enough and you'll know who those are, and it's better to avoid them or ensure you have at least 8-10 with you going at him, if you are so inclined. I'm certain it can be more prevalent in PC; however, as you should be aware, console or PS4, is definitely not immune to some kind of manipulation. Heck, look at all those damn bots farming whatever throughout the map.

Instead of assuming someone was cheating try to figure out what they did right and what you did wrong. That's how you become a better player. I used to think people were cheating too then I started re watching my fight videos, playing other classes, and spent way too much gold in theory crafting.

PS4 has a great feature that you can save your last few minutes of video so you can re watch and see what happened. Did you forget to apply a buff, not enough stamina got cc'd and died, no rotation/combo/CC, etc. I cringe watching some of my older videos and the mistakes I made, but it's made me a much better player.

With that being said I haven't encountered any cheating on PS4 just some skilled players(few that are left) and lots of lag.

Thogard

Mauz wrote: »

ESO PC stores data client side, there are 3rd party tools to manipulate this data, ZoS does not seem to be able to detect these tools.

Why shouldnt there be cheating?

No, it doesn’t.

Kartalin

@BrockofPercival
If you remember when some were exploiting Hist Bark, this was achieved by first wearing the armor set, activating the exploit, and switching to other armor entirely. Inspecting their gear would have done nothing to help unravel the mystery of their extra dodge chance.

Skoomah

Of course there is cheating in this game. I've seen people fly full horizontal across the screen. I've seen sorcs go invisible off potion cool downs multiple times in a row. Macro slice still happens. Take no damage still happens. And then there are people who just straight up program add ons and hacks. Three Snipe attacks with bow in a row before you get hit with first one still happens. ZOS does their best but exploiters and cheaters get banned and then just go start up a new account again.

Sanctum74

Skoomah wrote: »

Of course there is cheating in this game. I've seen people fly full horizontal across the screen. I've seen sorcs go invisible off potion cool downs multiple times in a row. Macro slice still happens. Take no damage still happens. And then there are people who just straight up program add ons and hacks. Three Snipe attacks with bow in a row before you get hit with first one still happens. ZOS does their best but exploiters and cheaters get banned and then just go start up a new account again.

This happens on console too, it's called lag.

SmellyUnlimited

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Of course there is cheating in this game. I've seen people fly full horizontal across the screen. I've seen sorcs go invisible off potion cool downs multiple times in a row. Macro slice still happens. Take no damage still happens. And then there are people who just straight up program add ons and hacks. Three Snipe attacks with bow in a row before you get hit with first one still happens. ZOS does their best but exploiters and cheaters get banned and then just go start up a new account again.

This happens on console too, it's called lag.

I concur, I’ve seen these happen and am fairly sure it’s lag. I flew horizontal on the screen during a trial; just a standing up sprite gliding across the ground like it was ice. Lag is like the anxiety of real life; it can manifest itself in a cornucopia of ways.

Derra

BrockofPercival wrote: »

I bet you know something is broken and just don't want others to know about it. It is not 'cheating', just another one of 'those ESO things'.

@BrockofPercival a part of mmos that i enjoy is theorycrafting. I put quite a bit of work into my builds before i put them to the test in cyrodiil or duels.

It has nothing to do with (ab)using broken things (and if i know them i report them and do not use them myself - because i enjoy competetive fights).

For me this competetiveness begins with theorycrafting a good build though. I feel personally that giving away your build (or being forced to) removes a layer of competition (which is knowledge and theorycrafting) from the game.

I put effort and work into my builds and in my opinion i should not be forced to to give it away freely via inspect player option. If i want to share something i will if you ask me - or i´ll outright tell you that i don´t want to share it.

If you want to call that elitism?

Feanor

I don’t know. I’m not tryhard enough to check out if cheating really works. If anything after 4 years of Cyrodiil you have a feeling when you have been outplayed (which I will always acknowledge) or when something is just strange. You can never really know though.

I think exploits (hello double mundus and hist bark back then) are much more common than outright cheating through 3rd party tools. I don’t care that much though. It’s one of the joys of being a scrub that you don’t have to pressure yourself to always win.

Thogard

I got accused of using a lag-hack and a hit box reduction hack today by a guy in the zerg my 3 man was farming outside Nikel.

Never mind that this was prime time on Vivec... I had to have been using a lag hack, according to him.

Turelus

Thogard wrote: »

I got accused of using a lag-hack and a hit box reduction hack today by a guy in the zerg my 3 man was farming outside Nikel.

Never mind that this was prime time on Vivec... I had to have been using a lag hack, according to him.

These are sadly the kind of people who make it easy for the real cheaters to keep flying under the radar. It's worse when they're also submitting tickets or convincing others to mass report for it.

GreenhaloX

Turelus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

I play on PS4, so I imagine if there WERE cheating, it’d be more prevalent on PC. Also, I’ve never witnessed anything I’d consider “cheating.” Some players are just exceptionally good at PvP.

But I’ve been playing I’m Cyrodil quite a bit lately, and still hear the same “oh that guy’s cheating!” These aren’t even said in jest, but legitimate absolute beliefs that the other player is cheating (which is of course why they died).

So...is this actually real? Do people actually have ways to cheat in the game?

Note: I’m not including exploits.

So have you actually experienced this?

Yeah, man, been instances on PS4 where a soloing dude/toon has taken out 6, 8, 10 and more toons/players all by himself. When one can mitigate such barrage of incoming damages from 6 or more toons/players, yet, able to dish out the damages enough to knock out all the others; well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist here. You play long enough and you'll know who those are, and it's better to avoid them or ensure you have at least 8-10 with you going at him, if you are so inclined. I'm certain it can be more prevalent in PC; however, as you should be aware, console or PS4, is definitely not immune to some kind of manipulation. Heck, look at all those damn bots farming whatever throughout the map.

Yeah so this is a perfect example of potato logic.

I won a 1v9, so therefore I must be cheating. Doesn’t matter that four of the 9 were casters that didn’t recast dmg shields and got one-rounded, that the healer and two tanks didn’t do any dmg at all, and that the dps didn’t use speed pots to be able to catch me while kiting.

This right here.

There are some fantastic 1vX players in ESO. They're good because they know the mechanics, know the best skills/builds for that patch, have the player knowledge and skill to mitigate the most damage whilst applying their own.
You can argue that ESO doesn't have very good game balance if someone can down nine people whilst not getting a scratch, but it doesn't mean everyone who can do it cheats.

By claiming people who can are cheaters again fits in with what I was saying previously about people spreading false information based on incorrect conclusions.

You all sound like politicians or lawyers. It's ok. As a player, I or we could only assume because there is no such way on the home end to legitimately determine if a certain someone is cheating or not. However, having been playing ESO for several years now and those having reach maxed CP have been around the block a few times with the game, certain skillsets and rotations have become ingrained and somewhat of a muscle memory. Then, you're saying that it's normal for one person to best 8+ others. As someone who knows better, no it's not. Yes, someone can be skilled and experienced enough, and with all the dysfunction or combat-mechanic going on within the game, one can surely best against 2 or perhaps 3 to maybe 4 others; but, not 6, 8 or more (legitimately.)

You can get amazed or at awe when one person is able to win the Tour de France 7 times over, while plethora of others can accomplish 1 to 2, or maybe 3 in their career. Perhaps same when someone is able to crack out 600-700 homeruns in a season, then similar in another season or 2, while other seasoned and experienced players are doing, what, around 300-400. I do get at awe at the gym when you see a beefed up dude bench pressing 400, 600 or more lbs; whereas, other avid fitness buffs are doing around 225 to 350. Potato logic to some, or there is really wrong with this picture to others. Well, whatever, everyone has eyes and a brain and can know better, while others can skillfully manipulate the truth like lawyers and politicians.

Beardimus

Karivaa wrote: »

I’ve played pvp since the game was released on Xbox. The only cheating I know about is ap boosting. I’ve seen it. Zoe does nothing about it. I have never seen lag switches, but have heard about them on Xbox.

I agree, yet they could Act on that data. Hence my post that cheating is on varying levels, in game action stuff as well as actually hacking (pc)

Alliance switch AP boosting would be simple to police/track and easy to stop (alliance lock)

Soul_Demon

Turelus wrote: »

I have no doubt cheating happens and I know there are groups who discuss bugs and exploits with the point of abusing them before they're discovered/fixed.

However I don't think it's as rampant as everyone makes out sometimes. The way you read these forums is that everyone is running CE and no one plays fair, but I think most of the players just log in and game without any care to such things.

We also have the sad situation where everything which can't be instantly explained is deemed cheating and muddies the water with false information and reports.

This could be the case, however I suspect ZOS not being transparent with the players increases the confusion. And example would be a player turning in another with screenshots of FTC timestamped with 6 skills all hitting in the exact same and all in one, one hundredth of second- suspect macro being used so you screenshot the timestamp and see a repeat of the same six skills in same timeframe repeated multiple times in different engagements and turn in. ZOS doesn't respond at all. And, doesn't tell the player what happened....not explanation, just a simple "not a macro or not cheat" type of response.

Was it lag? Was it macro? Was it bug in addon timer? was this superhuman speed beyond nerve conductivity speeds reproduced multiple times by same player?

Without ZOS being transparent with players, whom by the way are the actual "police" in the game who MUST turn in suspected behaviors to ZOS as they don't monitor it themselves (what a bad practice) how are we to ever know what the real culprit is? We cant.

So, we are to monitor their game for them and turn in behaviors suspected of violating the TOS or be outright hacks- (they are just too busy to have in game GM's play to monitor) however we are not allowed even a simple response to tell us if it is LAG, Bad Coding, Bugged Skills, or .......cheats. The inevitable results are claims that are not founded and simply explained in HUGE amounts. Its inevitable without responses from ZOS on the reports they do get.

In short, ZOS created their own monster in order to obfuscate possible problems with their game and avoid responsibility or they are so incompetent they didn't see how players policing themselves works with the company not being transparent.

DeadlyRecluse

Thogard wrote: »

Never mind that this was prime time on Vivec... I had to have been using a lag hack, according to him.

I consider anyone with good enough internet to play in Vivec on primtime to be lag hacking.

Turelus

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

I play on PS4, so I imagine if there WERE cheating, it’d be more prevalent on PC. Also, I’ve never witnessed anything I’d consider “cheating.” Some players are just exceptionally good at PvP.

But I’ve been playing I’m Cyrodil quite a bit lately, and still hear the same “oh that guy’s cheating!” These aren’t even said in jest, but legitimate absolute beliefs that the other player is cheating (which is of course why they died).

So...is this actually real? Do people actually have ways to cheat in the game?

Note: I’m not including exploits.

So have you actually experienced this?

Yeah, man, been instances on PS4 where a soloing dude/toon has taken out 6, 8, 10 and more toons/players all by himself. When one can mitigate such barrage of incoming damages from 6 or more toons/players, yet, able to dish out the damages enough to knock out all the others; well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist here. You play long enough and you'll know who those are, and it's better to avoid them or ensure you have at least 8-10 with you going at him, if you are so inclined. I'm certain it can be more prevalent in PC; however, as you should be aware, console or PS4, is definitely not immune to some kind of manipulation. Heck, look at all those damn bots farming whatever throughout the map.

Yeah so this is a perfect example of potato logic.

I won a 1v9, so therefore I must be cheating. Doesn’t matter that four of the 9 were casters that didn’t recast dmg shields and got one-rounded, that the healer and two tanks didn’t do any dmg at all, and that the dps didn’t use speed pots to be able to catch me while kiting.

This right here.

There are some fantastic 1vX players in ESO. They're good because they know the mechanics, know the best skills/builds for that patch, have the player knowledge and skill to mitigate the most damage whilst applying their own.
You can argue that ESO doesn't have very good game balance if someone can down nine people whilst not getting a scratch, but it doesn't mean everyone who can do it cheats.

By claiming people who can are cheaters again fits in with what I was saying previously about people spreading false information based on incorrect conclusions.

You all sound like politicians or lawyers. It's ok. As a player, I or we could only assume because there is no such way on the home end to legitimately determine if a certain someone is cheating or not. However, having been playing ESO for several years now and those having reach maxed CP have been around the block a few times with the game, certain skillsets and rotations have become ingrained and somewhat of a muscle memory. Then, you're saying that it's normal for one person to best 8+ others. As someone who knows better, no it's not. Yes, someone can be skilled and experienced enough, and with all the dysfunction or combat-mechanic going on within the game, one can surely best against 2 or perhaps 3 to maybe 4 others; but, not 6, 8 or more (legitimately.)

You can get amazed or at awe when one person is able to win the Tour de France 7 times over, while plethora of others can accomplish 1 to 2, or maybe 3 in their career. Perhaps same when someone is able to crack out 600-700 homeruns in a season, then similar in another season or 2, while other seasoned and experienced players are doing, what, around 300-400. I do get at awe at the gym when you see a beefed up dude bench pressing 400, 600 or more lbs; whereas, other avid fitness buffs are doing around 225 to 350. Potato logic to some, or there is really wrong with this picture to others. Well, whatever, everyone has eyes and a brain and can know better, while others can skillfully manipulate the truth like lawyers and politicians.

You're not the first to say I speak like a politician on these forums.

My point is it's entirely possible for legit players to win a 1v8, I know this because I have seen it from my own friends who I know don't use any cheating software or the like.
ESO has some very spotty PvP balance that's why this is possible. Remember those Vampire DK Emperors back in the day who could kill entire raids and walk away? That wasn't cheat engine, it was knowing what was strong and using it to the fullest.

When people win a 1v8 it's normally because the 8 are not organised or don't have the counters with them for that build. There are plenty of example videos of players winning against bigger numbers because they use strong builds, take advantage of skills which over perform in that patch and know how to LoS/Break damage off them.

To say every single person who can 1v8 has to be cheating because it's not possible just simply isn't true. Now if you took the top 9 PvP players in the game and made them 1v8 then I am pretty sure the 1 would lose. That's not how every fight in Cyrodiil goes though, most often 1v8 winners are fighting players not at their level.

There was even a thread a while back where people were asking if 1vX was dead and most of the replies were "It's dead vs good players, you can still win vs most who don't know what they're doing".

Soul_Demon wrote: »

This could be the case, however I suspect ZOS not being transparent with the players increases the confusion. And example would be a player turning in another with screenshots of FTC timestamped with 6 skills all hitting in the exact same and all in one, one hundredth of second- suspect macro being used so you screenshot the timestamp and see a repeat of the same six skills in same timeframe repeated multiple times in different engagements and turn in. ZOS doesn't respond at all. And, doesn't tell the player what happened....not explanation, just a simple "not a macro or not cheat" type of response.

Was it lag? Was it macro? Was it bug in addon timer? was this superhuman speed beyond nerve conductivity speeds reproduced multiple times by same player?

Without ZOS being transparent with players, whom by the way are the actual "police" in the game who MUST turn in suspected behaviors to ZOS as they don't monitor it themselves (what a bad practice) how are we to ever know what the real culprit is? We cant.

So, we are to monitor their game for them and turn in behaviors suspected of violating the TOS or be outright hacks- (they are just too busy to have in game GM's play to monitor) however we are not allowed even a simple response to tell us if it is LAG, Bad Coding, Bugged Skills, or .......cheats. The inevitable results are claims that are not founded and simply explained in HUGE amounts. Its inevitable without responses from ZOS on the reports they do get.

In short, ZOS created their own monster in order to obfuscate possible problems with their game and avoid responsibility or they are so incompetent they didn't see how players policing themselves works with the company not being transparent.

There are ways known to stack skills so they land at once, I personally don't know it but there are example videos of people doing it out there. Clearly it's not intended but as to if it's against ToS/EULA ZOS has never said.

The issue with transparency is it can very easily go wrong and there are some players who won't accept the answers any way.
If they say there was no foul play (and there wasn't) but the reported player then goes on to actually cheat, get caught and banned then people will scream ZOS didn't do their job when they actually did.

I've never known an MMO company who will talk about individual cases with players because it's just not a good place to be in. Only when really big issues involving big names happen do companies say something. A recent example in ESO would be people calling out Blobs for RMT and Gina posting in the thread.

There is another thread on these forums right now where a player has made a video stating Cheat Engine is happening, because their Skorian Proc didn't work as expected. Last read I gave it people had already explained how that could happen without CE. So we have a case there were it's entirely possible nothing is wrong, but that player is convinced enough to make a video saying it was used and is proof.

All we can ever do is keep reporting to ZOS and hoping they deal with correct reports, but stopping the jumping to assumptions or making claims everyone who can 1vX is a cheater will help actual cheaters get caught.

Soul_Demon

Turelus wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

I play on PS4, so I imagine if there WERE cheating, it’d be more prevalent on PC. Also, I’ve never witnessed anything I’d consider “cheating.” Some players are just exceptionally good at PvP.

But I’ve been playing I’m Cyrodil quite a bit lately, and still hear the same “oh that guy’s cheating!” These aren’t even said in jest, but legitimate absolute beliefs that the other player is cheating (which is of course why they died).

So...is this actually real? Do people actually have ways to cheat in the game?

Note: I’m not including exploits.

So have you actually experienced this?

Yeah, man, been instances on PS4 where a soloing dude/toon has taken out 6, 8, 10 and more toons/players all by himself. When one can mitigate such barrage of incoming damages from 6 or more toons/players, yet, able to dish out the damages enough to knock out all the others; well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist here. You play long enough and you'll know who those are, and it's better to avoid them or ensure you have at least 8-10 with you going at him, if you are so inclined. I'm certain it can be more prevalent in PC; however, as you should be aware, console or PS4, is definitely not immune to some kind of manipulation. Heck, look at all those damn bots farming whatever throughout the map.

Yeah so this is a perfect example of potato logic.

I won a 1v9, so therefore I must be cheating. Doesn’t matter that four of the 9 were casters that didn’t recast dmg shields and got one-rounded, that the healer and two tanks didn’t do any dmg at all, and that the dps didn’t use speed pots to be able to catch me while kiting.

This right here.

There are some fantastic 1vX players in ESO. They're good because they know the mechanics, know the best skills/builds for that patch, have the player knowledge and skill to mitigate the most damage whilst applying their own.
You can argue that ESO doesn't have very good game balance if someone can down nine people whilst not getting a scratch, but it doesn't mean everyone who can do it cheats.

By claiming people who can are cheaters again fits in with what I was saying previously about people spreading false information based on incorrect conclusions.

You all sound like politicians or lawyers. It's ok. As a player, I or we could only assume because there is no such way on the home end to legitimately determine if a certain someone is cheating or not. However, having been playing ESO for several years now and those having reach maxed CP have been around the block a few times with the game, certain skillsets and rotations have become ingrained and somewhat of a muscle memory. Then, you're saying that it's normal for one person to best 8+ others. As someone who knows better, no it's not. Yes, someone can be skilled and experienced enough, and with all the dysfunction or combat-mechanic going on within the game, one can surely best against 2 or perhaps 3 to maybe 4 others; but, not 6, 8 or more (legitimately.)

You can get amazed or at awe when one person is able to win the Tour de France 7 times over, while plethora of others can accomplish 1 to 2, or maybe 3 in their career. Perhaps same when someone is able to crack out 600-700 homeruns in a season, then similar in another season or 2, while other seasoned and experienced players are doing, what, around 300-400. I do get at awe at the gym when you see a beefed up dude bench pressing 400, 600 or more lbs; whereas, other avid fitness buffs are doing around 225 to 350. Potato logic to some, or there is really wrong with this picture to others. Well, whatever, everyone has eyes and a brain and can know better, while others can skillfully manipulate the truth like lawyers and politicians.

You're not the first to say I speak like a politician on these forums.

My point is it's entirely possible for legit players to win a 1v8, I know this because I have seen it from my own friends who I know don't use any cheating software or the like.
ESO has some very spotty PvP balance that's why this is possible. Remember those Vampire DK Emperors back in the day who could kill entire raids and walk away? That wasn't cheat engine, it was knowing what was strong and using it to the fullest.

When people win a 1v8 it's normally because the 8 are not organised or don't have the counters with them for that build. There are plenty of example videos of players winning against bigger numbers because they use strong builds, take advantage of skills which over perform in that patch and know how to LoS/Break damage off them.

To say every single person who can 1v8 has to be cheating because it's not possible just simply isn't true. Now if you took the top 9 PvP players in the game and made them 1v8 then I am pretty sure the 1 would lose. That's not how every fight in Cyrodiil goes though, most often 1v8 winners are fighting players not at their level.

There was even a thread a while back where people were asking if 1vX was dead and most of the replies were "It's dead vs good players, you can still win vs most who don't know what they're doing".

Soul_Demon wrote: »

This could be the case, however I suspect ZOS not being transparent with the players increases the confusion. And example would be a player turning in another with screenshots of FTC timestamped with 6 skills all hitting in the exact same and all in one, one hundredth of second- suspect macro being used so you screenshot the timestamp and see a repeat of the same six skills in same timeframe repeated multiple times in different engagements and turn in. ZOS doesn't respond at all. And, doesn't tell the player what happened....not explanation, just a simple "not a macro or not cheat" type of response.

Was it lag? Was it macro? Was it bug in addon timer? was this superhuman speed beyond nerve conductivity speeds reproduced multiple times by same player?

Without ZOS being transparent with players, whom by the way are the actual "police" in the game who MUST turn in suspected behaviors to ZOS as they don't monitor it themselves (what a bad practice) how are we to ever know what the real culprit is? We cant.

So, we are to monitor their game for them and turn in behaviors suspected of violating the TOS or be outright hacks- (they are just too busy to have in game GM's play to monitor) however we are not allowed even a simple response to tell us if it is LAG, Bad Coding, Bugged Skills, or .......cheats. The inevitable results are claims that are not founded and simply explained in HUGE amounts. Its inevitable without responses from ZOS on the reports they do get.

In short, ZOS created their own monster in order to obfuscate possible problems with their game and avoid responsibility or they are so incompetent they didn't see how players policing themselves works with the company not being transparent.

There are ways known to stack skills so they land at once, I personally don't know it but there are example videos of people doing it out there. Clearly it's not intended but as to if it's against ToS/EULA ZOS has never said.

The issue with transparency is it can very easily go wrong and there are some players who won't accept the answers any way.
If they say there was no foul play (and there wasn't) but the reported player then goes on to actually cheat, get caught and banned then people will scream ZOS didn't do their job when they actually did.

I've never known an MMO company who will talk about individual cases with players because it's just not a good place to be in. Only when really big issues involving big names happen do companies say something. A recent example in ESO would be people calling out Blobs for RMT and Gina posting in the thread.

There is another thread on these forums right now where a player has made a video stating Cheat Engine is happening, because their Skorian Proc didn't work as expected. Last read I gave it people had already explained how that could happen without CE. So we have a case there were it's entirely possible nothing is wrong, but that player is convinced enough to make a video saying it was used and is proof.

All we can ever do is keep reporting to ZOS and hoping they deal with correct reports, but stopping the jumping to assumptions or making claims everyone who can 1vX is a cheater will help actual cheaters get caught.

This leaves us as players with only two possible outcomes.....

Report everything out of the ordinary, or report nothing.
Both have problems, but with transparency all reporting drops to just the select few who more than likely are in fact cheating.

To me, its a rather simple equation- No transparency encourages poor understanding of game mechanics to be reported as cheats, each one taking valuable time from those reviewing. Transparency as simple as "not cheat" gradually reduces the reports as understanding by the players increases reducing workload to manageable bits of likely cheats only. Of course this assumes that ZOS has human beings monitoring such things and not farming out to third party companies their "reports" in the first place.

Turelus

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

I play on PS4, so I imagine if there WERE cheating, it’d be more prevalent on PC. Also, I’ve never witnessed anything I’d consider “cheating.” Some players are just exceptionally good at PvP.

But I’ve been playing I’m Cyrodil quite a bit lately, and still hear the same “oh that guy’s cheating!” These aren’t even said in jest, but legitimate absolute beliefs that the other player is cheating (which is of course why they died).

So...is this actually real? Do people actually have ways to cheat in the game?

Note: I’m not including exploits.

So have you actually experienced this?

Yeah, man, been instances on PS4 where a soloing dude/toon has taken out 6, 8, 10 and more toons/players all by himself. When one can mitigate such barrage of incoming damages from 6 or more toons/players, yet, able to dish out the damages enough to knock out all the others; well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist here. You play long enough and you'll know who those are, and it's better to avoid them or ensure you have at least 8-10 with you going at him, if you are so inclined. I'm certain it can be more prevalent in PC; however, as you should be aware, console or PS4, is definitely not immune to some kind of manipulation. Heck, look at all those damn bots farming whatever throughout the map.

Yeah so this is a perfect example of potato logic.

I won a 1v9, so therefore I must be cheating. Doesn’t matter that four of the 9 were casters that didn’t recast dmg shields and got one-rounded, that the healer and two tanks didn’t do any dmg at all, and that the dps didn’t use speed pots to be able to catch me while kiting.

This right here.

There are some fantastic 1vX players in ESO. They're good because they know the mechanics, know the best skills/builds for that patch, have the player knowledge and skill to mitigate the most damage whilst applying their own.
You can argue that ESO doesn't have very good game balance if someone can down nine people whilst not getting a scratch, but it doesn't mean everyone who can do it cheats.

By claiming people who can are cheaters again fits in with what I was saying previously about people spreading false information based on incorrect conclusions.

You all sound like politicians or lawyers. It's ok. As a player, I or we could only assume because there is no such way on the home end to legitimately determine if a certain someone is cheating or not. However, having been playing ESO for several years now and those having reach maxed CP have been around the block a few times with the game, certain skillsets and rotations have become ingrained and somewhat of a muscle memory. Then, you're saying that it's normal for one person to best 8+ others. As someone who knows better, no it's not. Yes, someone can be skilled and experienced enough, and with all the dysfunction or combat-mechanic going on within the game, one can surely best against 2 or perhaps 3 to maybe 4 others; but, not 6, 8 or more (legitimately.)

You can get amazed or at awe when one person is able to win the Tour de France 7 times over, while plethora of others can accomplish 1 to 2, or maybe 3 in their career. Perhaps same when someone is able to crack out 600-700 homeruns in a season, then similar in another season or 2, while other seasoned and experienced players are doing, what, around 300-400. I do get at awe at the gym when you see a beefed up dude bench pressing 400, 600 or more lbs; whereas, other avid fitness buffs are doing around 225 to 350. Potato logic to some, or there is really wrong with this picture to others. Well, whatever, everyone has eyes and a brain and can know better, while others can skillfully manipulate the truth like lawyers and politicians.

You're not the first to say I speak like a politician on these forums.

My point is it's entirely possible for legit players to win a 1v8, I know this because I have seen it from my own friends who I know don't use any cheating software or the like.
ESO has some very spotty PvP balance that's why this is possible. Remember those Vampire DK Emperors back in the day who could kill entire raids and walk away? That wasn't cheat engine, it was knowing what was strong and using it to the fullest.

When people win a 1v8 it's normally because the 8 are not organised or don't have the counters with them for that build. There are plenty of example videos of players winning against bigger numbers because they use strong builds, take advantage of skills which over perform in that patch and know how to LoS/Break damage off them.

To say every single person who can 1v8 has to be cheating because it's not possible just simply isn't true. Now if you took the top 9 PvP players in the game and made them 1v8 then I am pretty sure the 1 would lose. That's not how every fight in Cyrodiil goes though, most often 1v8 winners are fighting players not at their level.

There was even a thread a while back where people were asking if 1vX was dead and most of the replies were "It's dead vs good players, you can still win vs most who don't know what they're doing".

Soul_Demon wrote: »

This could be the case, however I suspect ZOS not being transparent with the players increases the confusion. And example would be a player turning in another with screenshots of FTC timestamped with 6 skills all hitting in the exact same and all in one, one hundredth of second- suspect macro being used so you screenshot the timestamp and see a repeat of the same six skills in same timeframe repeated multiple times in different engagements and turn in. ZOS doesn't respond at all. And, doesn't tell the player what happened....not explanation, just a simple "not a macro or not cheat" type of response.

Was it lag? Was it macro? Was it bug in addon timer? was this superhuman speed beyond nerve conductivity speeds reproduced multiple times by same player?

Without ZOS being transparent with players, whom by the way are the actual "police" in the game who MUST turn in suspected behaviors to ZOS as they don't monitor it themselves (what a bad practice) how are we to ever know what the real culprit is? We cant.

So, we are to monitor their game for them and turn in behaviors suspected of violating the TOS or be outright hacks- (they are just too busy to have in game GM's play to monitor) however we are not allowed even a simple response to tell us if it is LAG, Bad Coding, Bugged Skills, or .......cheats. The inevitable results are claims that are not founded and simply explained in HUGE amounts. Its inevitable without responses from ZOS on the reports they do get.

In short, ZOS created their own monster in order to obfuscate possible problems with their game and avoid responsibility or they are so incompetent they didn't see how players policing themselves works with the company not being transparent.

There are ways known to stack skills so they land at once, I personally don't know it but there are example videos of people doing it out there. Clearly it's not intended but as to if it's against ToS/EULA ZOS has never said.

The issue with transparency is it can very easily go wrong and there are some players who won't accept the answers any way.
If they say there was no foul play (and there wasn't) but the reported player then goes on to actually cheat, get caught and banned then people will scream ZOS didn't do their job when they actually did.

I've never known an MMO company who will talk about individual cases with players because it's just not a good place to be in. Only when really big issues involving big names happen do companies say something. A recent example in ESO would be people calling out Blobs for RMT and Gina posting in the thread.

There is another thread on these forums right now where a player has made a video stating Cheat Engine is happening, because their Skorian Proc didn't work as expected. Last read I gave it people had already explained how that could happen without CE. So we have a case there were it's entirely possible nothing is wrong, but that player is convinced enough to make a video saying it was used and is proof.

All we can ever do is keep reporting to ZOS and hoping they deal with correct reports, but stopping the jumping to assumptions or making claims everyone who can 1vX is a cheater will help actual cheaters get caught.

This leaves us as players with only two possible outcomes.....

Report everything out of the ordinary, or report nothing.
Both have problems, but with transparency all reporting drops to just the select few who more than likely are in fact cheating.

To me, its a rather simple equation- No transparency encourages poor understanding of game mechanics to be reported as cheats, each one taking valuable time from those reviewing. Transparency as simple as "not cheat" gradually reduces the reports as understanding by the players increases reducing workload to manageable bits of likely cheats only. Of course this assumes that ZOS has human beings monitoring such things and not farming out to third party companies their "reports" in the first place.

Indeed. I have for a long time said ZOS should consider a known cheats and exploits page which lists common things people should be aware of as well as clarifying any misconceptions.

I just don't think personal replies regarding reports would do good for them and it's not something many companies do. Maybe people would be happier if they were at least marked as "seen" or something.

joe.smith21b14_ESO

Why is everyone writing short stories? We ain’t got time for that.

Kartalin

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Perhaps same when someone is able to crack out 600-700 homeruns in a season, then similar in another season or 2, while other seasoned and experienced players are doing, what, around 300-400.

Maybe if you’re going to use baseball analogies you should have a better understanding first? Gotta divide those numbers by 10 yo.

Skander

Addons=cheating

Feanor

Kartalin wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Perhaps same when someone is able to crack out 600-700 homeruns in a season, then similar in another season or 2, while other seasoned and experienced players are doing, what, around 300-400.

Maybe if you’re going to use baseball analogies you should have a better understanding first? Gotta divide those numbers by 10 yo.

You gotta admit though that even if the 73 might have been juiced it was a bit more entertaining than everyone drawing walks on 12 pitches because Sabermetrics.

BrockofPercival

I'll add one last set of points:

==> For people who play well and have come up with good builds, as long as you don't macro, I can tell you are good and that you are legitimately beating 3+ opponents because of gear, skill and your build. When it's 7+ some of em have be fighting poorly or have poor gear (or both) (or no good counters for what you have, etc.) but overall congrats. (as far as macroing is concerned, you can tell the difference between someone who is very fast and a macroer)

==> lag is a huge problem. I am maybe above average now at ESO but I was accused of cheating once. I managed to get the person to calm down and explain, basically I was invisible and then untargetable when attacking them. That could easily be seen as cheating and that shows again my main point that you really can't tell in ESO, which is a BIG problem. It was all because of really shoddy net-code on ESO's part and that pretty much explains many oddities I see every time I pvp. I only will consider that someone is cheating if it happens 5+ times when I fight them, which takes awhile since you may not see someone everyday. So I basically just gave up and don't worry about it at all. People with endless resource? F- it, just bring more friends or leave the area.

==> finally, the unknown 'features' and what I consider broken sets, cause many problems and make PvP rather dysfunctional. Even without lag this just makes PvP worse off. Like I read up on Zaan when the patch came out and immediately knew that a templar block casting heals and LAs would just be a NO-SKILL way to play, BUT very effective. And other broken sets/builds that you see often in the arena that make for unfun PvP.

I prefer GvG skilled/tactical PvP over 1v1. I think the GvG is better than the 1v1, far as skill and tactics go. (gear and build matter more in 1v1 IMO)

And it doesn't seem like players really try to win vivec etc. anymore. Some do, some don't. I missed the heyday of ESO for sure. I think allowing x-realm chars is probably what really did it in.

I am mostly a bit broody/pessimistic because I can see that with just some fixes, minor changes and more effort on a well rounded design plan by ESO devs would make for a very good to great RvR/PvP MMO. Ah well, que sera sera.

SmellyUnlimited

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

I play on PS4, so I imagine if there WERE cheating, it’d be more prevalent on PC. Also, I’ve never witnessed anything I’d consider “cheating.” Some players are just exceptionally good at PvP.

But I’ve been playing I’m Cyrodil quite a bit lately, and still hear the same “oh that guy’s cheating!” These aren’t even said in jest, but legitimate absolute beliefs that the other player is cheating (which is of course why they died).

So...is this actually real? Do people actually have ways to cheat in the game?

Note: I’m not including exploits.

So have you actually experienced this?

Yeah, man, been instances on PS4 where a soloing dude/toon has taken out 6, 8, 10 and more toons/players all by himself. When one can mitigate such barrage of incoming damages from 6 or more toons/players, yet, able to dish out the damages enough to knock out all the others; well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist here. You play long enough and you'll know who those are, and it's better to avoid them or ensure you have at least 8-10 with you going at him, if you are so inclined. I'm certain it can be more prevalent in PC; however, as you should be aware, console or PS4, is definitely not immune to some kind of manipulation. Heck, look at all those damn bots farming whatever throughout the map.

Yeah so this is a perfect example of potato logic.

I won a 1v9, so therefore I must be cheating. Doesn’t matter that four of the 9 were casters that didn’t recast dmg shields and got one-rounded, that the healer and two tanks didn’t do any dmg at all, and that the dps didn’t use speed pots to be able to catch me while kiting.

This right here.

There are some fantastic 1vX players in ESO. They're good because they know the mechanics, know the best skills/builds for that patch, have the player knowledge and skill to mitigate the most damage whilst applying their own.
You can argue that ESO doesn't have very good game balance if someone can down nine people whilst not getting a scratch, but it doesn't mean everyone who can do it cheats.

By claiming people who can are cheaters again fits in with what I was saying previously about people spreading false information based on incorrect conclusions.

You all sound like politicians or lawyers. It's ok. As a player, I or we could only assume because there is no such way on the home end to legitimately determine if a certain someone is cheating or not. However, having been playing ESO for several years now and those having reach maxed CP have been around the block a few times with the game, certain skillsets and rotations have become ingrained and somewhat of a muscle memory. Then, you're saying that it's normal for one person to best 8+ others. As someone who knows better, no it's not. Yes, someone can be skilled and experienced enough, and with all the dysfunction or combat-mechanic going on within the game, one can surely best against 2 or perhaps 3 to maybe 4 others; but, not 6, 8 or more (legitimately.)

You can get amazed or at awe when one person is able to win the Tour de France 7 times over, while plethora of others can accomplish 1 to 2, or maybe 3 in their career. Perhaps same when someone is able to crack out 600-700 homeruns in a season, then similar in another season or 2, while other seasoned and experienced players are doing, what, around 300-400. I do get at awe at the gym when you see a beefed up dude bench pressing 400, 600 or more lbs; whereas, other avid fitness buffs are doing around 225 to 350. Potato logic to some, or there is really wrong with this picture to others. Well, whatever, everyone has eyes and a brain and can know better, while others can skillfully manipulate the truth like lawyers and politicians.

The inherent problem there is that people are far off the same playing field in real-life, whereas in video games it’s fairly even. Athletes that perform incredible feats (besides having a strong drive to succeed) are benefited from genetics, body size, proportionality, susceptibility to injury etc. Those extemporaneous factors don’t exist so much in a game, so the likelihood of multiple players being able to pull off some 1vX madness is much higher. Those players may have practiced more, used novel builds, or potential inexperience of opposing players etc.

The game has become so homogenous now that every dps I see is in Mechanical Acuity+Other (Warrior/Apprentice Mundus), so particular builds that are highly successful in 1vX are copied across the board. Example: Permablock MagDK tanks in PvP. Entire builds are out now JUST to counter that nightmare factory.

Ir comes down not to the have’s and have not’s, but the haves and “soon to haves”

GreenhaloX

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

I play on PS4, so I imagine if there WERE cheating, it’d be more prevalent on PC. Also, I’ve never witnessed anything I’d consider “cheating.” Some players are just exceptionally good at PvP.

But I’ve been playing I’m Cyrodil quite a bit lately, and still hear the same “oh that guy’s cheating!” These aren’t even said in jest, but legitimate absolute beliefs that the other player is cheating (which is of course why they died).

So...is this actually real? Do people actually have ways to cheat in the game?

Note: I’m not including exploits.

So have you actually experienced this?

Yeah, man, been instances on PS4 where a soloing dude/toon has taken out 6, 8, 10 and more toons/players all by himself. When one can mitigate such barrage of incoming damages from 6 or more toons/players, yet, able to dish out the damages enough to knock out all the others; well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist here. You play long enough and you'll know who those are, and it's better to avoid them or ensure you have at least 8-10 with you going at him, if you are so inclined. I'm certain it can be more prevalent in PC; however, as you should be aware, console or PS4, is definitely not immune to some kind of manipulation. Heck, look at all those damn bots farming whatever throughout the map.

Yeah so this is a perfect example of potato logic.

I won a 1v9, so therefore I must be cheating. Doesn’t matter that four of the 9 were casters that didn’t recast dmg shields and got one-rounded, that the healer and two tanks didn’t do any dmg at all, and that the dps didn’t use speed pots to be able to catch me while kiting.

This right here.

There are some fantastic 1vX players in ESO. They're good because they know the mechanics, know the best skills/builds for that patch, have the player knowledge and skill to mitigate the most damage whilst applying their own.
You can argue that ESO doesn't have very good game balance if someone can down nine people whilst not getting a scratch, but it doesn't mean everyone who can do it cheats.

By claiming people who can are cheaters again fits in with what I was saying previously about people spreading false information based on incorrect conclusions.

You all sound like politicians or lawyers. It's ok. As a player, I or we could only assume because there is no such way on the home end to legitimately determine if a certain someone is cheating or not. However, having been playing ESO for several years now and those having reach maxed CP have been around the block a few times with the game, certain skillsets and rotations have become ingrained and somewhat of a muscle memory. Then, you're saying that it's normal for one person to best 8+ others. As someone who knows better, no it's not. Yes, someone can be skilled and experienced enough, and with all the dysfunction or combat-mechanic going on within the game, one can surely best against 2 or perhaps 3 to maybe 4 others; but, not 6, 8 or more (legitimately.)

You can get amazed or at awe when one person is able to win the Tour de France 7 times over, while plethora of others can accomplish 1 to 2, or maybe 3 in their career. Perhaps same when someone is able to crack out 600-700 homeruns in a season, then similar in another season or 2, while other seasoned and experienced players are doing, what, around 300-400. I do get at awe at the gym when you see a beefed up dude bench pressing 400, 600 or more lbs; whereas, other avid fitness buffs are doing around 225 to 350. Potato logic to some, or there is really wrong with this picture to others. Well, whatever, everyone has eyes and a brain and can know better, while others can skillfully manipulate the truth like lawyers and politicians.

The inherent problem there is that people are far off the same playing field in real-life, whereas in video games it’s fairly even. Athletes that perform incredible feats (besides having a strong drive to succeed) are benefited from genetics, body size, proportionality, susceptibility to injury etc. Those extemporaneous factors don’t exist so much in a game, so the likelihood of multiple players being able to pull off some 1vX madness is much higher. Those players may have practiced more, used novel builds, or potential inexperience of opposing players etc.

The game has become so homogenous now that every dps I see is in Mechanical Acuity+Other (Warrior/Apprentice Mundus), so particular builds that are highly successful in 1vX are copied across the board. Example: Permablock MagDK tanks in PvP. Entire builds are out now JUST to counter that nightmare factory.

Ir comes down not to the have’s and have not’s, but the haves and “soon to haves”

Well, people playing this game and controlling each toon are real people in real life (aside from those farming bots.) While some view this as casually as another video game, there are many others who seem to take this game quite seriously; particularly those diehard long time PvP players. The majority of the PvP population are, and I'm sure, ToS and CoC-abiding gamers. However, you do have those small percentage that have cheated and ousted by other players (and I'm sure ZOS as well), and still some about that are quite questionable and highly suspected to be cheating in their build, specs or whatnot to have advantages in some ways, shape or form. I just think that anyone who is proned to cheat in real life or take advantage of people are also proned to do same within this game. It is just the nature of people, and boy/girlscout as well bad boys and bad girls types are all playing within this expansive game together.

There will always be certain people that will do whatever it takes (even with some illegitimate ways) to win over or get the better/advantages over another. Anyone that doesn't think there is no cheating going on or can best 9-10 people in PvP by him/herself and its normal as part of the game, then, either there is something really wrong with PvP in this game or those are the cheaters. You just can't sololy beat down many more in odds against you. There is too much damages being thrown, from skills/abilities and I'm sure also some form/kind of poison and/or other defiles from 4, 5, or more, for one solo (legitimate) toon/build to mitigate. Period. It's doesn't matter what campaign.

Anyways, those cheating/exploiters or suspected of such are the least of the problem within PvP. The big or major problems within PvP are all the lags, crashes, weapon swapping delays and skills misfiring/delayed to slow movement and other technical nuisances and annoyances that have been and are still plaguing PvP. Hell, I'm sorry and I apologize to ZOS and the good developers of this game for I was cursing them all throughout last night's gameplay of PvP.

BrockofPercival

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Well, people playing this game and controlling each toon are real people in real life (aside from those farming bots.) While some view this as casually as another video game, there are many others who seem to take this game quite seriously; particularly those diehard long time PvP players. The majority of the PvP population are, and I'm sure, ToS and CoC-abiding gamers. However, you do have those small percentage that have cheated and ousted by other players (and I'm sure ZOS as well), and still some about that are quite questionable and highly suspected to be cheating in their build, specs or whatnot to have advantages in some ways, shape or form. I just think that anyone who is proned to cheat in real life or take advantage of people are also proned to do same within this game. It is just the nature of people, and boy/girlscout as well bad boys and bad girls types are all playing within this expansive game together.

etc.

Yes.

I have never been in an MMO (with or without PvP) where people did not cheat. The ease with which one can cheat determines the percentage, which is usually around 5-10%. Then you always have the fringe who exploit bugs that then gets debated as to whether or not cheating, etc. It is a range.

The ease here is very high, the chance of being caught is very low and so I conclude that more players cheat here than in other MMOs. This may occur more often in PvE than PvP. Consoles are in no way immune but the extra step(s) to do it will lower the number of cheaters.

Legit PvPers are the norm. If called out as a cheater just take it as a compliment.

Next for the veterans, if someone says cheating and there are legit ways to do it then explain. But also realize that just because there is a legit way to do it does not mean that the player being accused is using that legit method, since some use cheats that mirror legit builds but are in fact exploiting/cheating because they know that you cannot ever prove it. There are countless examples of this. Most are minor but everything gives an edge in PvP. LUCKILY, it seems rare.

And the cheaters may not be cheating all the time, normally that is not the case. They will cheat when needed or gives the biggest boost (like in PvE). But if someone gets hard to get armor sets in PvE via cheating and uses them in PvP, they are cheating. You will never know but they are cheaters. That is typically how most cheaters operate in MMOs. After that it is more subtle stuff like radar hacks and anything else that is really hard to prove and ban for. I won't mention what those are in ESO but a simple google search should enlighten anyone with the low level 'reading comprehension skill'.

Not really sure why this gets debated so much, this ALWAYS exists in all online games these days. What I'd like is for devs in all online games to have a forum thread that describes the common cheats, how to recognize them and easy ways to report. Instead of pretending it is all fine and dandy.

exeeter702

Dredlord wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Some players are just exceptionally good at PvP.

So have you actually experienced this?

Yep, and the obvious conclusion I have come to is some of these ppl are using mouse and keyboard on console.

I play both ps4 and pc and I could beat my ps4 self every time without fail with my pc self. Also a lot of macros are showing up on console as of last patch or two. Same reason/product is why...

Yeah no. Conversion tools that allow for m/kb on console for games that dont natively support them only emulate analog stick movement with more precision. It would serve absolutely no purpose here since you can not speed the camera up faster than the analogue sticks allow.

And as far as key binds go, for the exception of break free and maybe bash, custom key binds dont amount to much versus standard inputs on a controler and since the console client doesnt allow rebinding of actions, you would have to resort to key macros which is terrible and clunky.

Dredlord

exeeter702 wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

SmellyUnlimited wrote: »

Some players are just exceptionally good at PvP.

So have you actually experienced this?

Yep, and the obvious conclusion I have come to is some of these ppl are using mouse and keyboard on console.

I play both ps4 and pc and I could beat my ps4 self every time without fail with my pc self. Also a lot of macros are showing up on console as of last patch or two. Same reason/product is why...

Yeah no. Conversion tools that allow for m/kb on console for games that dont natively support them only emulate analog stick movement with more precision. It would serve absolutely no purpose here since you can not speed the camera up faster than the analogue sticks allow.

And as far as key binds go, for the exception of break free and maybe bash, custom key binds dont amount to much versus standard inputs on a controler and since the console client doesnt allow rebinding of actions, you would have to resort to key macros which is terrible and clunky.

Yeah, no and I will even raise you a yeah no

Come back and talk to me when you have actually tried it.

They sell em at Best Buy...

Maryal

Is there ever cheating in pvp?

Whatever you think you saw, you didn't ... nothing to see here ... just a figment of your imagination ... or too much skooma (burp).