Bleed

CyrusArya

Skander wrote: »

You know that healing isn't for countering bleeds. But healing yourself right?

Healing, particularly heals over time, are meant to counter damage and damage over time. Bleeds are simply DoTs, and so mechanically you counter them the way you as you would any other DoT. You can discuss the strength of bleeds, but if you claim bleeds have no counters then you have to also claim DoTs in general have no counter which is silly because by definition the primary defense against damage is healing.

People who struggle immensely vs bleeds have poor defensive capabilities. Bleed damage itself is fine as is rending slashes the skill, which must remain a powerful DoT. What could be adjusted and what the discussion should focus on is the passive axe bleeds and how they stack. If bleed damage is nerfed as a damage type, then the skill Twin Slashes must be buffed in compensation for both PvP and PvE.

KingLogix

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Your magplar isn't achieving that by using 1 skill for starters. Bleeds also may tick every 2 seconds but this is also partly what makes them so powerful. You can line up burst with these ticks to deal more dmg than most spammable abilities can when combined with other dots like poison arrow or embers. Bleeds are the main reason why the stupid Spin2Win playstyle has become so common.

Bleeds are acting as a sort of burst dmg without actually taking the time to line up burst combos. Just slap on blood craze and a battle-axe for easy burst damage with very little effort or timing. Bleeds have essentially become a free spammable every 2 seconds for free. There is little to no reason at all to run a greatsword or maul now for this exact reason.

My Stamsorc can out-dot a MagDK (a class built around dots) using 1 skill and axes. Fair? I think not.

Huh guess I should check the patch notes cause last I checked Rending doesn't put 6+ bleeds on someone with one application.

Didn't say 6 bleeds. 3 are enough to be a problem.

3 bleeds are not happening with one application either. There are only 4 bleeds total that are easily available. Not gonna talk about Twin Sisters or other things that are technically bleeds. So we have rending, carve, and the 2 passive bleeds. That's 4 total, 2 with a separate 16% chance of application and one of them weak af. And most don't even run Carve. They tick every 2 seconds as opposed to most HoT which tick every second. You can literally put all 4 bleeds on a good stamden with DoT poisons and a spammable and they are outhealing it enough to stay offensive unless you use smart burst or defile. Stamsorc and Stamplar need bleeds to be viable. Stamblade in heavy can abuse bleeds the most but it's got little to do with bleeds and more to do with the tools at their disposal. And I don't want stamblades nerfed as annoying as they are.

Less QQ, more pew pew, ZOS honestly need to listen to the community less if crying for nerfs is all it's gonna do. ZOS should just listen to the class reps, and the class reps know which forum users are capable of valuable feedback. At least I think they do. So yeah, read into that all you like. I'm just gonna come out and say that a lot of you forum users' posts aren't worth a wooden nickel.

well said!

wheem_ESO

CyrusArya wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

You know that healing isn't for countering bleeds. But healing yourself right?

Healing, particularly heals over time, are meant to counter damage and damage over time. Bleeds are simply DoTs, and so mechanically you counter them the way you as you would any other DoT. You can discuss the strength of bleeds, but if you claim bleeds have no counters then you have to also claim DoTs in general have no counter which is silly because by definition the primary defense against damage is healing.

People who struggle immensely vs bleeds have poor defensive capabilities. Bleed damage itself is fine as is rending slashes the skill, which must remain a powerful DoT. What could be adjusted and what the discussion should focus on is the passive axe bleeds and how they stack. If bleed damage is nerfed as a damage type, then the skill Twin Slashes must be buffed in compensation for both PvP and PvE.

When people say there are no counters to bleeds, I think they're mainly referring to the fact that your resists don't matter. You can try and counter other damage sources, including DOTs, by wearing heavy armor, using Protective jewelry traits, etc...but that doesn't do anything to bleeds.

Losing something like 8-10% of your HP every 2 seconds to one application of Rending Slashes seems a bit much, especially since it stacks with proc bleeds (which get similar damage numbers), and all bleeds from other players. If "bleed builds" had low damage outside of their bleeds it might be a little more balanced, but that's simply not the case.

And on that note, lets be honest about what a "bleed build" actually is: It simply involves a Stamina player equipping at least one Master 1h axe on one bar, and likely a 2h axe on the other. There's no specific armor set requirement that gimps the player's defense or sustain, and there's no significant sacrifice in bar space. The "bleed build" setup is everywhere in Battlegrounds, and it's really obvious why.

Skander

CyrusArya wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

You know that healing isn't for countering bleeds. But healing yourself right?

Healing, particularly heals over time, are meant to counter damage and damage over time. Bleeds are simply DoTs, and so mechanically you counter them the way you as you would any other DoT. You can discuss the strength of bleeds, but if you claim bleeds have no counters then you have to also claim DoTs in general have no counter which is silly because by definition the primary defense against damage is healing.

People who struggle immensely vs bleeds have poor defensive capabilities. Bleed damage itself is fine as is rending slashes the skill, which must remain a powerful DoT. What could be adjusted and what the discussion should focus on is the passive axe bleeds and how they stack. If bleed damage is nerfed as a damage type, then the skill Twin Slashes must be buffed in compensation for both PvP and PvE.

Lemme tell you something. Bleeds avoid defenses. That's why they are imbalance
They are oblivion damage. You cannot defend but outheal. And you CAN'T OUTHEAL bleeds and pressure.

Anethum

Skander wrote: »

Lemme tell you something. Bleeds avoid defenses. That's why they are imbalance
They are oblivion damage. You cannot defend but outheal. And you CAN'T OUTHEAL bleeds and pressure.

actually it's not fully true. they can be mitigated with major and minor protection, both major and minor Maim (but its not so easy to apply them when u need ofc), Impenetrable armor reduce their criticals, they don't ignore absorb shields (but new ones are squishy af).
So it's not oblivion damage.
But, full ignorance of resists is a big thing - bleeds are really strong because of that.

CyrusArya wrote: »

Healing, particularly heals over time, are meant to counter damage and damage over time. Bleeds are simply DoTs, and so mechanically you counter them the way you as you would any other DoT.

Healing + mitigation + active defensive buffs and debuffs + mechanics like dodge, block etc.
These things in general are a counter to incoming damage.
Not healing itself.
And healthy gameplay means that damage always should be at least slightly stronger than they all to prevent endless fights.
In eso damage means very much.
Burst now is a very huge and maybe most important thing in current pvp. Very common thing is - u're cc-ed and dead in 1 second while doing breakbree in battlegrounds. Just because of general burst from players.

Same, hots are not counter to dots, but only a part of counter to them.

ChunkyCat

https://youtu.be/HhlQegL5oVM

pieratsos

CyrusArya wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

You know that healing isn't for countering bleeds. But healing yourself right?

Healing, particularly heals over time, are meant to counter damage and damage over time. Bleeds are simply DoTs, and so mechanically you counter them the way you as you would any other DoT. You can discuss the strength of bleeds, but if you claim bleeds have no counters then you have to also claim DoTs in general have no counter which is silly because by definition the primary defense against damage is healing.

People who struggle immensely vs bleeds have poor defensive capabilities. Bleed damage itself is fine as is rending slashes the skill, which must remain a powerful DoT. What could be adjusted and what the discussion should focus on is the passive axe bleeds and how they stack. If bleed damage is nerfed as a damage type, then the skill Twin Slashes must be buffed in compensation for both PvP and PvE.

Actually, with ur definition of what counterplay is, then by definition everything in game has counterplay including oblivion dmg which is completely absurd. The counterplay to everything cant be just heal it. It was bad enough when ZOS was throwing stuff in game and their counterplay was "just block it". Now we've reached new heights of stupidity. Even block doesnt do anything. The counter to everything is "just heal it". What could possibly go wrong with this mindset. Why do we even have multiple ways to defend if all you have to do is "just heal it". If thats counterplay then why bother with a complex combat system. Just remove dodge, block, resistances, shields from the game, convert everything to oblivion dmg and lets all just heal through everything. Lol.

WreckfulAbandon

.

pieratsos wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

You know that healing isn't for countering bleeds. But healing yourself right?

Healing, particularly heals over time, are meant to counter damage and damage over time. Bleeds are simply DoTs, and so mechanically you counter them the way you as you would any other DoT. You can discuss the strength of bleeds, but if you claim bleeds have no counters then you have to also claim DoTs in general have no counter which is silly because by definition the primary defense against damage is healing.

People who struggle immensely vs bleeds have poor defensive capabilities. Bleed damage itself is fine as is rending slashes the skill, which must remain a powerful DoT. What could be adjusted and what the discussion should focus on is the passive axe bleeds and how they stack. If bleed damage is nerfed as a damage type, then the skill Twin Slashes must be buffed in compensation for both PvP and PvE.

Actually, with ur definition of what counterplay is, then by definition everything in game has counterplay including oblivion dmg which is completely absurd. The counterplay to everything cant be just heal it. It was bad enough when ZOS was throwing stuff in game and their counterplay was "just block it". Now we've reached new heights of stupidity. Even block doesnt do anything. The counter to everything is "just heal it". What could possibly go wrong with this mindset. Why do we even have multiple ways to defend if all you have to do is "just heal it". If thats counterplay then why bother with a complex combat system. Just remove dodge, block, resistances, shields from the game, convert everything to oblivion dmg and lets all just heal through everything. Lol.

Yea what are they thinking stuff like meteor is ridiculous that the counterplay is "just block it." And to get your health back up when it goes down, you're telling me I have to heal to counter the damage that was done, aka "just heal it." I mean what do they expect, for me to think while I'm playing a game!?! I'm with you guys all the way, in fact let's come up with a catchy slogan too (don't make it too complicated I clearly don't play this game to think or anything like that)

I'm glad that I finally found a thread full of people who understand how to L2P. Just call for more nerfs! What could go wrong?

WaltherCarraway

counterplay of sload or whatever broken is "just more healing" why tf people cried so much????? roll a stamplar get master dw min maj protection plus high HoT and ask other ppl to L2P!!!!!!!!!

WaltherCarraway

btw go play RDR2 instead of being a waffle cracker here lol no one cares.

Anethum

Nerfs are fine.
Fine because if to look at this more wide, nerf is a kind of adjustment.
which include upgrade, empower, redesign etc.
thats why i wonder on manipulation that nerf in general is bad, or good or something like.
It's just an instrument/way of improving (if done professionally) the gameplay.
Sometimes with little step by step during the long period. Sometimes with bad and not intended results\
But in general it's fine itself.
Talk please about the core, not about it's cover.

[Deleted User]

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove a few posts for unneeded back and forth, keep in mind that flaming and baiting are both against the Forum Rules. For further posts please be sure to stay constructive and respectful to prevent action on one's own account.

Thank you for understanding.

[Deleted User]

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove a few posts for unneeded back and forth, keep in mind that flaming and baiting are both against the Forum Rules. For further posts please be sure to stay constructive and respectful to prevent action on one's own account.

Thank you for understanding.

pieratsos

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

.

pieratsos wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

You know that healing isn't for countering bleeds. But healing yourself right?

Healing, particularly heals over time, are meant to counter damage and damage over time. Bleeds are simply DoTs, and so mechanically you counter them the way you as you would any other DoT. You can discuss the strength of bleeds, but if you claim bleeds have no counters then you have to also claim DoTs in general have no counter which is silly because by definition the primary defense against damage is healing.

People who struggle immensely vs bleeds have poor defensive capabilities. Bleed damage itself is fine as is rending slashes the skill, which must remain a powerful DoT. What could be adjusted and what the discussion should focus on is the passive axe bleeds and how they stack. If bleed damage is nerfed as a damage type, then the skill Twin Slashes must be buffed in compensation for both PvP and PvE.

Actually, with ur definition of what counterplay is, then by definition everything in game has counterplay including oblivion dmg which is completely absurd. The counterplay to everything cant be just heal it. It was bad enough when ZOS was throwing stuff in game and their counterplay was "just block it". Now we've reached new heights of stupidity. Even block doesnt do anything. The counter to everything is "just heal it". What could possibly go wrong with this mindset. Why do we even have multiple ways to defend if all you have to do is "just heal it". If thats counterplay then why bother with a complex combat system. Just remove dodge, block, resistances, shields from the game, convert everything to oblivion dmg and lets all just heal through everything. Lol.

Yea what are they thinking stuff like meteor is ridiculous that the counterplay is "just block it." And to get your health back up when it goes down, you're telling me I have to heal to counter the damage that was done, aka "just heal it." I mean what do they expect, for me to think while I'm playing a game!?! I'm with you guys all the way, in fact let's come up with a catchy slogan too (don't make it too complicated I clearly don't play this game to think or anything like that)

I'm glad that I finally found a thread full of people who understand how to L2P. Just call for more nerfs! What could go wrong?

Yeah, i do understand how to L2P and a complex combat system with smart decisions. Unfortunately "just block it" or "just heal it" doesnt qualify for that. I mean actually smart decisions. You know, the time of double reflects, the time when people would think twice before dropping a meteor on DKs, the time when templars would eclipse DKs for double reflects, the time smart decisions were part of this game and skill actually meant something. The time when a skilled player with one smart decision could turn the fight around, the time were mistakes were punished. The time when people were actually using their brains. "Just block it" or "just heal it" doesnt qualify for smart gameplay. Its more shallow and boring than playing mario kart.

But sure keep defending all this one sided, shallow crap we have now and actually thinking that "just block" or "just heal" is a complex combat system with player skill. Sorry for not being that braindead to think that this is smart and skilled gampeplay. I must totally L2P to do that.

Its ok tho, i would expect nothing less from someone who actually believes that the shortcomings of classes excuse overperforming bs. And then you actually wonder why classes get butchered or why they dont get buffed. Lmao. If you could only see the irony in that.

Skander

The only player skill that is in this game, it's clicking the log in

Typical_T_ReX

Without bleeds how do you counter block builds? Serious question. I'm not asking about the debate of permablock etc etc, but as long as I can literally d swing myself out of stamina all the while not being able to gain resources through heavy attacks before someone can run me dry by pressing 1 button without consequence what is the solution to that? If you say to run a hard CC, not every class has one and if that is your response then please see below and that is my response to you about bleeds.

I can't count the amount of times I've been told to run purge ( yes on my stamina characters ) for other DoTs/ negative effects. What makes bleeds different from this? Ask any DK or class that relies on DoTs how it is to fight a good Magplar who can purge these effects.

CyrusArya

Skander wrote: »

Lemme tell you something. Bleeds avoid defenses. That's why they are imbalance
They are oblivion damage. You cannot defend but outheal. And you CAN'T OUTHEAL bleeds and pressure.

People who parrot this line, comparing bleeds to sloads or oblivion damage, clearly don’t understand the game that well. Bleeds ignore armor resist, yes. But that is it. Aside from this, they are literally the same thing as any DoT. Oblivion damage ignores armor resist, protection, maim, cps, damage shields, mist form, and literally every other form of mitigation in the game. It’s disingenuous to say they are basically the same thing because all of those will reduce bleed damage.

Actually propose some changes and be open to compromise and people might take you or any bleed QQer seriously. But simply mindlessly whining is just obnoxious, as it is in any case. Maybe YOU can’t out heal bleeds and just fall over dead vs anyone who uses em, but I don’t on any class that I play. And neither does any good player on any class in my experience. But as I have said before, I’m open to tuning bleed damage so long as Twin Slashes the skill remains consistent in strength as it is today.

Typical_T_ReX wrote: »

Without bleeds how do you counter block builds?

You pressure their stam pool and line up burst with a CC. Some classes and specs however don’t have the tools to do so, and vs them block is ridiculously overpowered. Which is why I insist if bleed be nerfed then block must be too. Either directly, or by way of more tools being made available to break it. Bleeds/dual wield are no less powerful than block/sword&board, but the people who cry hardest about bleeds will never admit that.

pieratsos

CyrusArya wrote: »

Oblivion damage ignores armor resist, protection, maim, cps, damage shields, mist form, and literally every other form of mitigation in the game. It’s disingenuous to say they are basically the same thing because all of those will reduce bleed damage.

But you can outheal it. So it has counterplay according to you. Why the double standards?

CyrusArya

pieratsos wrote: »

But you can outheal it. So it has counterplay according to you. Why the double standards?

Please show me where I said that just because something has counter play means it’s balanced. Mechanically, the way to counter sloads is in fact to heal through it, same as with bleeds. The issue was and still is that since oblivion damage by passes damage shields, classes that rely on shielding over healing have no means to counter it. Furthermore it broke cloak. That’s what made the set broken. Being an oblivion damage dot that could stack with all other sources of damage. Bleeds are a very strong source of damage, as is sloads/oblivion damage. No one is denying that. When you stack the two it is very oppressive. The same thing that made the recently patched glyph fiasco so broken. It’s stacking 2 already powerful things. On its own though, neither is too powerful vs classes that have the means to deal with it. Which for bleeds is pretty much everything.

As I have repeatedly said, the stacking of bleed damage from active skills with passive proc bleeds could be looked at and addressed. I just insist that twin slashes (an active skill and dot) must remain strong as it is.

WreckfulAbandon

pieratsos wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Oblivion damage ignores armor resist, protection, maim, cps, damage shields, mist form, and literally every other form of mitigation in the game. It’s disingenuous to say they are basically the same thing because all of those will reduce bleed damage.

But you can outheal it. So it has counterplay according to you. Why the double standards?

Ok then go start a nerf oblivion dmg thread. It's clear that something "has" to be nerfed to give you and others a fair chance at PvP. Anyone good at the game needs to be defiled and/or bursted to be killed by bleeds if they have a good build. Which most good players generally have. Regardless of class this is true. So the real question is why are you not making use of all the game mechanics to help you survive? Maybe some of you are decent players who just haven't adapted your builds. But the tools are there and all you're doing right now is asking ZOS to nerf more stuff. Poor form.

pieratsos

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Oblivion damage ignores armor resist, protection, maim, cps, damage shields, mist form, and literally every other form of mitigation in the game. It’s disingenuous to say they are basically the same thing because all of those will reduce bleed damage.

But you can outheal it. So it has counterplay according to you. Why the double standards?

Ok then go start a nerf oblivion dmg thread. It's clear that something "has" to be nerfed to give you and others a fair chance at PvP. Anyone good at the game needs to be defiled and/or bursted to be killed by bleeds if they have a good build. Which most good players generally have. Regardless of class this is true. So the real question is why are you not making use of all the game mechanics to help you survive? Maybe some of you are decent players who just haven't adapted your builds. But the tools are there and all you're doing right now is asking ZOS to nerf more stuff. Poor form.

Wait, so now you are defending oblivion dmg?

Some of us haven't adapted our builds? That's what you understood from all this? I mean seriously, do you actually believe that this shallow gameplay with "just heal it" crap is skilled and that people complain about it because "they didn't adapt their builds" or because "they just want to see something nerfed" ? Did it even occur to you that maybe, just maybe, some people actually want more in depth combat?

On a side note since you conveniently avoided to address the points I made before, do you even comprehend that crap like bleeds are one of the main reasons why classes are getting butchered?

pieratsos

CyrusArya wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

But you can outheal it. So it has counterplay according to you. Why the double standards?

Please show me where I said that just because something has counter play means it’s balanced. Mechanically, the way to counter sloads is in fact to heal through it, same as with bleeds. The issue was and still is that since oblivion damage by passes damage shields, classes that rely on shielding over healing have no means to counter it. Furthermore it broke cloak. That’s what made the set broken. Being an oblivion damage dot that could stack with all other sources of damage. Bleeds are a very strong source of damage, as is sloads/oblivion damage. No one is denying that. When you stack the two it is very oppressive. The same thing that made the recently patched glyph fiasco so broken. It’s stacking 2 already powerful things. On its own though, neither is too powerful vs classes that have the means to deal with it. Which for bleeds is pretty much everything.

As I have repeatedly said, the stacking of bleed damage from active skills with passive proc bleeds could be looked at and addressed. I just insist that twin slashes (an active skill and dot) must remain strong as it is.

Except the issue with oblivion dmg is that it doesn't have any counters. Thats why it's impossible to be balanced.

You also mentioned stacking dmg with them. That's exactly the point. When you take a look at sloads or bleeds individually they don't look that bad. But the fact that they ignore mechanics makes them susceptible to be abused in some way which throws balance out of the window. That's the freaking problem with every single crap that ignores some mechanics in some sort of way. They can't be balanced.

Back in the first procalypse Fengrush said something that perfectly describes the issue with PVP which still applies to this day. In fact it's even worse now. He said that you used to feel good with ur kills. You felt that you were actually playing good. Now, you kill people and you don't even feel that you did something good. You just say "OK, I abused that guy". You just randomly press buttons and people die.

And that's what it all boils down to. When you kill people and don't even feel that you did something good, well that by itself says everything you need to know about the game.

WreckfulAbandon

pieratsos wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Oblivion damage ignores armor resist, protection, maim, cps, damage shields, mist form, and literally every other form of mitigation in the game. It’s disingenuous to say they are basically the same thing because all of those will reduce bleed damage.

But you can outheal it. So it has counterplay according to you. Why the double standards?

Ok then go start a nerf oblivion dmg thread. It's clear that something "has" to be nerfed to give you and others a fair chance at PvP. Anyone good at the game needs to be defiled and/or bursted to be killed by bleeds if they have a good build. Which most good players generally have. Regardless of class this is true. So the real question is why are you not making use of all the game mechanics to help you survive? Maybe some of you are decent players who just haven't adapted your builds. But the tools are there and all you're doing right now is asking ZOS to nerf more stuff. Poor form.

Wait, so now you are defending oblivion dmg?

Some of us haven't adapted our builds? That's what you understood from all this? I mean seriously, do you actually believe that this shallow gameplay with "just heal it" crap is skilled and that people complain about it because "they didn't adapt their builds" or because "they just want to see something nerfed" ? Did it even occur to you that maybe, just maybe, some people actually want more in depth combat?

On a side note since you conveniently avoided to address the points I made before, do you even comprehend that crap like bleeds are one of the main reasons why classes are getting butchered?

No you pointed out "double standards" so I just did the same. And how am I supposed to address your points if most of it was just fantasizing about how ZOS should drastically overhaul their combat system? We all know it's not gonna happen, they are not gonna make huge changes like that just to satisfy PvP. As for classes being "butchered" that isn't really what we have right now. NB's might be top dog but you can still be viable on other classes. Bleeds aren't super OP on their own but when you can add crazy burst and defile they become a lot stronger. Which not every class can do. Also don't forget healing in this game is still extremely strong and would be imbalanced without high damage potential on the other end.

CaliMade

Bleeds need adjusting. As someone pointed out before. They are ok in a vaccum. but lets take my stamplar into consideration.


I run a very high dmg setup, 18k DBoS+ 21k dot, nearly 1800 jabs 28k PoTL. and overall you can say my stamplar hits really hard so i need no extra help in dealing with average resistance players. may run into slightly higher ttk with tanky players



Now throw bleeds on top of that, i think 12k twin blade and blunt with 13~14k rending. Yes im definitely dealing with the tanky players easier. but what about everything else that isn’t a tank? what happeneds to them? they get destroyed even harder than before.

i think a good solution would be to instead of ignoring resistance bleeds should scale with the amount of resistance presented.

10k resist= no dmg buff on bleeds
20K resist=10% stronger
30k resist= 30% stronger

this way they ACTUALLY counter tanky players.

One more thing. We as a community will never progress and neither will the game if we continue to use blanket dismissive statements like “It counters tanky players” or “Just purge/heal through/block it”. while these broad counters are reliable in a vacuum. Eso is far too dynamic in combat situations for any solution to be that simple.

in the case of “just heal it” how often is any player not tagged with major or minor defile? Not to mention there are debuffs that lower your spell/weapon damage that also in turn lower your heals. Not speaking on how common they are but they do exist. odds are someone your fighting is using them.

creating mechanics that flat out ignore vital defense or offense mechanics are a slippery slope due to the wide variety of combat customization options we’re presented with.

Example of balance-Wings, shuts down ranged offense on a class with absolutely 0 ranged offense forcing CQC. Useless against beam attacks

Example of non balance- Passive dodge, randomly mitigating an undetermined amout of damage while wasting no resources in the process.

Example of balance- mauls- ignoring 20% resistance. thats 2k on a 10k resist target and 6k on a 30K resist target effectively making it weaker against low resistance

Example of non balance-Bleeds- Dealing a farily strong dot at high damage regardless of your opponent and sacrificing very little to do so. also can stack with other damage sources that otherwise are strong enough to apply adequate pressure without the bleed present.

with bleeds you gain access to a very very strong offensive mechanic that ignores a crucial defensive mechanic. All while sacrificing very little (2.5-5% damage done, witch is actually alot weaker than the bleeds if you do the math.). you dont have to give up sustain, you dont have to give up any weapon damage or hp, and you dont have to give up any max resources.

Either there needs to be greater sacrifice in obtaining bleeds or bleeds need to be adjusted, possibly in the way i stated earlier in this post.

pieratsos

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Oblivion damage ignores armor resist, protection, maim, cps, damage shields, mist form, and literally every other form of mitigation in the game. It’s disingenuous to say they are basically the same thing because all of those will reduce bleed damage.

But you can outheal it. So it has counterplay according to you. Why the double standards?

Ok then go start a nerf oblivion dmg thread. It's clear that something "has" to be nerfed to give you and others a fair chance at PvP. Anyone good at the game needs to be defiled and/or bursted to be killed by bleeds if they have a good build. Which most good players generally have. Regardless of class this is true. So the real question is why are you not making use of all the game mechanics to help you survive? Maybe some of you are decent players who just haven't adapted your builds. But the tools are there and all you're doing right now is asking ZOS to nerf more stuff. Poor form.

Wait, so now you are defending oblivion dmg?

Some of us haven't adapted our builds? That's what you understood from all this? I mean seriously, do you actually believe that this shallow gameplay with "just heal it" crap is skilled and that people complain about it because "they didn't adapt their builds" or because "they just want to see something nerfed" ? Did it even occur to you that maybe, just maybe, some people actually want more in depth combat?

On a side note since you conveniently avoided to address the points I made before, do you even comprehend that crap like bleeds are one of the main reasons why classes are getting butchered?

No you pointed out "double standards" so I just did the same. And how am I supposed to address your points if most of it was just fantasizing about how ZOS should drastically overhaul their combat system? We all know it's not gonna happen, they are not gonna make huge changes like that just to satisfy PvP. As for classes being "butchered" that isn't really what we have right now. NB's might be top dog but you can still be viable on other classes. Bleeds aren't super OP on their own but when you can add crazy burst and defile they become a lot stronger. Which not every class can do. Also don't forget healing in this game is still extremely strong and would be imbalanced without high damage potential on the other end.

Yes I know that they won't actually bring skill back to the game. That would require them to actually know their game in the first place. However this is completely irrelevant with the discussion and certainly not a reason to defend every bs mechanic. Not sure why you think it is.

Of course classes get butchered or at the very least not get buffed because of every crap like bleeds. When a certain class needs to crutch on some bs mechanic to be viable then the class gives the delusion of being balanced or even op when it's actually not. Which is exactly what we have now. You even admitted that certain classes crutch on bleeds to be viable. Then the class never gets buffed because of that bs mechanic or even worse, gets butchered because the devs fail to understand the root of the problem and end up nerfing the wrong stuff.

So by all means keep defending every crap like bleeds and oblivion dmg and then actually wonder why everything in the game gets nerfed.

montiferus

Skander wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

You know that healing isn't for countering bleeds. But healing yourself right?

Healing, particularly heals over time, are meant to counter damage and damage over time. Bleeds are simply DoTs, and so mechanically you counter them the way you as you would any other DoT. You can discuss the strength of bleeds, but if you claim bleeds have no counters then you have to also claim DoTs in general have no counter which is silly because by definition the primary defense against damage is healing.

People who struggle immensely vs bleeds have poor defensive capabilities. Bleed damage itself is fine as is rending slashes the skill, which must remain a powerful DoT. What could be adjusted and what the discussion should focus on is the passive axe bleeds and how they stack. If bleed damage is nerfed as a damage type, then the skill Twin Slashes must be buffed in compensation for both PvP and PvE.

They are oblivion damage.

no they are not and if you think they are you probably should refrain from offering any input to this thread as you dont know what you are talking about.

ChunkyCat

CaliMade wrote: »

I run a very high dmg setup, 18k DBoS+ 21k dot, nearly 1800 jabs 28k PoTL. and overall you can say my stamplar hits really hard so i need no extra help in dealing with average resistance players.

You don’t need the bleeds, so they should be nerfed.

Seems reasonable.

Skander

montiferus wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

You know that healing isn't for countering bleeds. But healing yourself right?

Healing, particularly heals over time, are meant to counter damage and damage over time. Bleeds are simply DoTs, and so mechanically you counter them the way you as you would any other DoT. You can discuss the strength of bleeds, but if you claim bleeds have no counters then you have to also claim DoTs in general have no counter which is silly because by definition the primary defense against damage is healing.

People who struggle immensely vs bleeds have poor defensive capabilities. Bleed damage itself is fine as is rending slashes the skill, which must remain a powerful DoT. What could be adjusted and what the discussion should focus on is the passive axe bleeds and how they stack. If bleed damage is nerfed as a damage type, then the skill Twin Slashes must be buffed in compensation for both PvP and PvE.

They are oblivion damage.

no they are not and if you think they are you probably should refrain from offering any input to this thread as you dont know what you are talking about.

Of course they are not. They would be called oblivion damage.

But bleed damage IS oblivion damage

Why? Becouse the damage output it's so disgustingly strong that you can compare the two.

Burtan

Can we at least agree that people should deal dmg with abilities instead of free dmg via procs/bleeds? Or do people think free dmg and procs are a good thing? if so please explain why.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Zos, the pvp experience sux atm...its zergy as crap, laggy and the current meta is quite frustrating.

Many people are leaving the game because of lag and gameplay...

When will you make PVP stand alone and not connect to PVE....have its own rules on skill caps/resist etc...its been 4 years lol

The changes made seem to have helped average/non pvp players, but honestly its worse ^^