Bleed

WreckfulAbandon

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Your magplar isn't achieving that by using 1 skill for starters. Bleeds also may tick every 2 seconds but this is also partly what makes them so powerful. You can line up burst with these ticks to deal more dmg than most spammable abilities can when combined with other dots like poison arrow or embers. Bleeds are the main reason why the stupid Spin2Win playstyle has become so common.

Bleeds are acting as a sort of burst dmg without actually taking the time to line up burst combos. Just slap on blood craze and a battle-axe for easy burst damage with very little effort or timing. Bleeds have essentially become a free spammable every 2 seconds for free. There is little to no reason at all to run a greatsword or maul now for this exact reason.

My Stamsorc can out-dot a MagDK (a class built around dots) using 1 skill and axes. Fair? I think not.

Huh guess I should check the patch notes cause last I checked Rending doesn't put 6+ bleeds on someone with one application.

Burtan

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Your magplar isn't achieving that by using 1 skill for starters. Bleeds also may tick every 2 seconds but this is also partly what makes them so powerful. You can line up burst with these ticks to deal more dmg than most spammable abilities can when combined with other dots like poison arrow or embers. Bleeds are the main reason why the stupid Spin2Win playstyle has become so common.

Bleeds are acting as a sort of burst dmg without actually taking the time to line up burst combos. Just slap on blood craze and a battle-axe for easy burst damage with very little effort or timing. Bleeds have essentially become a free spammable every 2 seconds for free. There is little to no reason at all to run a greatsword or maul now for this exact reason.

My Stamsorc can out-dot a MagDK (a class built around dots) using 1 skill and axes. Fair? I think not.

Huh guess I should check the patch notes cause last I checked Rending doesn't put 6+ bleeds on someone with one application.

Didn't say 6 bleeds. 3 are enough to be a problem.

usmguy1234

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Not saying that at all. I'm just saying that the nature of this game is very volatile. Bleeds will have their day in the sun and eventually fade out and something else will replace them. Ironically enough bleeds "day in the sun" comes as a symptom of all the survivability nerfs brought about by forum whiners. Sometimes I guess you reap what you sow.

WreckfulAbandon

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Your magplar isn't achieving that by using 1 skill for starters. Bleeds also may tick every 2 seconds but this is also partly what makes them so powerful. You can line up burst with these ticks to deal more dmg than most spammable abilities can when combined with other dots like poison arrow or embers. Bleeds are the main reason why the stupid Spin2Win playstyle has become so common.

Bleeds are acting as a sort of burst dmg without actually taking the time to line up burst combos. Just slap on blood craze and a battle-axe for easy burst damage with very little effort or timing. Bleeds have essentially become a free spammable every 2 seconds for free. There is little to no reason at all to run a greatsword or maul now for this exact reason.

My Stamsorc can out-dot a MagDK (a class built around dots) using 1 skill and axes. Fair? I think not.

Huh guess I should check the patch notes cause last I checked Rending doesn't put 6+ bleeds on someone with one application.

Didn't say 6 bleeds. 3 are enough to be a problem.

3 bleeds are not happening with one application either. There are only 4 bleeds total that are easily available. Not gonna talk about Twin Sisters or other things that are technically bleeds. So we have rending, carve, and the 2 passive bleeds. That's 4 total, 2 with a separate 16% chance of application and one of them weak af. And most don't even run Carve. They tick every 2 seconds as opposed to most HoT which tick every second. You can literally put all 4 bleeds on a good stamden with DoT poisons and a spammable and they are outhealing it enough to stay offensive unless you use smart burst or defile. Stamsorc and Stamplar need bleeds to be viable. Stamblade in heavy can abuse bleeds the most but it's got little to do with bleeds and more to do with the tools at their disposal. And I don't want stamblades nerfed as annoying as they are.

Less QQ, more pew pew, ZOS honestly need to listen to the community less if crying for nerfs is all it's gonna do. ZOS should just listen to the class reps, and the class reps know which forum users are capable of valuable feedback. At least I think they do. So yeah, read into that all you like. I'm just gonna come out and say that a lot of you forum users' posts aren't worth a wooden nickel.

Burtan

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Your magplar isn't achieving that by using 1 skill for starters. Bleeds also may tick every 2 seconds but this is also partly what makes them so powerful. You can line up burst with these ticks to deal more dmg than most spammable abilities can when combined with other dots like poison arrow or embers. Bleeds are the main reason why the stupid Spin2Win playstyle has become so common.

Bleeds are acting as a sort of burst dmg without actually taking the time to line up burst combos. Just slap on blood craze and a battle-axe for easy burst damage with very little effort or timing. Bleeds have essentially become a free spammable every 2 seconds for free. There is little to no reason at all to run a greatsword or maul now for this exact reason.

My Stamsorc can out-dot a MagDK (a class built around dots) using 1 skill and axes. Fair? I think not.

Huh guess I should check the patch notes cause last I checked Rending doesn't put 6+ bleeds on someone with one application.

Didn't say 6 bleeds. 3 are enough to be a problem.

3 bleeds are not happening with one application either. There are only 4 bleeds total that are easily available. Not gonna talk about Twin Sisters or other things that are technically bleeds. So we have rending, carve, and the 2 passive bleeds. That's 4 total, 2 with a separate 16% chance of application and one of them weak af. And most don't even run Carve. They tick every 2 seconds as opposed to most HoT which tick every second. You can literally put all 4 bleeds on a good stamden with DoT poisons and a spammable and they are outhealing it enough to stay offensive unless you use smart burst or defile. Stamsorc and Stamplar need bleeds to be viable. Stamblade in heavy can abuse bleeds the most but it's got little to do with bleeds and more to do with the tools at their disposal. And I don't want stamblades nerfed as annoying as they are.

Less QQ, more pew pew, ZOS honestly need to listen to the community less if crying for nerfs is all it's gonna do. ZOS should just listen to the class reps, and the class reps know which forum users are capable of valuable feedback. At least I think they do. So yeah, read into that all you like. I'm just gonna come out and say that a lot of you forum users' posts aren't worth a wooden nickel.

Stamsorc and Stamplar do not need bleeds to be viable, sounds like that's just a problem you are having. The 3 bleeds I mentioned are Blood Craze, Twin Blade and Blunt and Heavy Weapons Bleed, all of which are applied constantly with low effort.

Most hots people have access to even when combined wont come close to the damage of those bleed ticks alone. This is irrelevant anyways though, getting such high dmg ticks for free without investing anything is a bit silly to me.

Bleed are arguably worse than sets like sloads since you don't need to invest anything at all and they take 0 effort to utilize.

WreckfulAbandon

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Your magplar isn't achieving that by using 1 skill for starters. Bleeds also may tick every 2 seconds but this is also partly what makes them so powerful. You can line up burst with these ticks to deal more dmg than most spammable abilities can when combined with other dots like poison arrow or embers. Bleeds are the main reason why the stupid Spin2Win playstyle has become so common.

Bleeds are acting as a sort of burst dmg without actually taking the time to line up burst combos. Just slap on blood craze and a battle-axe for easy burst damage with very little effort or timing. Bleeds have essentially become a free spammable every 2 seconds for free. There is little to no reason at all to run a greatsword or maul now for this exact reason.

My Stamsorc can out-dot a MagDK (a class built around dots) using 1 skill and axes. Fair? I think not.

Huh guess I should check the patch notes cause last I checked Rending doesn't put 6+ bleeds on someone with one application.

Didn't say 6 bleeds. 3 are enough to be a problem.

3 bleeds are not happening with one application either. There are only 4 bleeds total that are easily available. Not gonna talk about Twin Sisters or other things that are technically bleeds. So we have rending, carve, and the 2 passive bleeds. That's 4 total, 2 with a separate 16% chance of application and one of them weak af. And most don't even run Carve. They tick every 2 seconds as opposed to most HoT which tick every second. You can literally put all 4 bleeds on a good stamden with DoT poisons and a spammable and they are outhealing it enough to stay offensive unless you use smart burst or defile. Stamsorc and Stamplar need bleeds to be viable. Stamblade in heavy can abuse bleeds the most but it's got little to do with bleeds and more to do with the tools at their disposal. And I don't want stamblades nerfed as annoying as they are.

Less QQ, more pew pew, ZOS honestly need to listen to the community less if crying for nerfs is all it's gonna do. ZOS should just listen to the class reps, and the class reps know which forum users are capable of valuable feedback. At least I think they do. So yeah, read into that all you like. I'm just gonna come out and say that a lot of you forum users' posts aren't worth a wooden nickel.

Stamsorc and Stamplar do not need bleeds to be viable, sounds like that's just a problem you are having. The 3 bleeds I mentioned are Blood Craze, Twin Blade and Blunt and Heavy Weapons Bleed, all of which are applied constantly with low effort.

Most hots people have access to even when combined wont come close to the damage of those bleed ticks alone. This is irrelevant anyways though, getting such high dmg ticks for free without investing anything is a bit silly to me.

Bleed are arguably worse than sets like sloads since you don't need to invest anything at all and they take 0 effort to utilize.

There is investment though. If you wanna build tanky those bleeds are gonna tickle. You need dmg sets to make the bleeds provide good pressure. How is applying bleeds any less effort than applying all the other DoTs in the game or a LA+incap combo from stealth? The only thing I have a problem with is DW/2h builds getting the nerf hammer again because of yet more forum whining. You clearly said that stamsorc/stamplar don't need bleeds to be viable. And if this is about low effort, you're fine with Sloads and proc sets but not with bleeds?

My stamden in 7th and other undisclosed sets literally can't die unless he's heavily defiled or outnumbered. Can't even give out what I'm running because I'm so sick of things being nerfed in this game. Duelled a stamsorc buddy running full bleeds with a good build. We fought for over 5 min until I finally got my full combo on him within his burst window. It's like a damn pillow fight when good builds fight each other. It's unfair for stamdens to have such beastmode healing if we're gonna nerf every source of damage in the game. Just cause stamblades can kill them easily doesn't make it balanced for every other class. Great, now stamdens are gonna get nerfed. **** these forums honestly, you people will never stop trying to nerf things. Please stop reading the forums ZOS.

Burtan

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Your magplar isn't achieving that by using 1 skill for starters. Bleeds also may tick every 2 seconds but this is also partly what makes them so powerful. You can line up burst with these ticks to deal more dmg than most spammable abilities can when combined with other dots like poison arrow or embers. Bleeds are the main reason why the stupid Spin2Win playstyle has become so common.

Bleeds are acting as a sort of burst dmg without actually taking the time to line up burst combos. Just slap on blood craze and a battle-axe for easy burst damage with very little effort or timing. Bleeds have essentially become a free spammable every 2 seconds for free. There is little to no reason at all to run a greatsword or maul now for this exact reason.

My Stamsorc can out-dot a MagDK (a class built around dots) using 1 skill and axes. Fair? I think not.

Huh guess I should check the patch notes cause last I checked Rending doesn't put 6+ bleeds on someone with one application.

Didn't say 6 bleeds. 3 are enough to be a problem.

3 bleeds are not happening with one application either. There are only 4 bleeds total that are easily available. Not gonna talk about Twin Sisters or other things that are technically bleeds. So we have rending, carve, and the 2 passive bleeds. That's 4 total, 2 with a separate 16% chance of application and one of them weak af. And most don't even run Carve. They tick every 2 seconds as opposed to most HoT which tick every second. You can literally put all 4 bleeds on a good stamden with DoT poisons and a spammable and they are outhealing it enough to stay offensive unless you use smart burst or defile. Stamsorc and Stamplar need bleeds to be viable. Stamblade in heavy can abuse bleeds the most but it's got little to do with bleeds and more to do with the tools at their disposal. And I don't want stamblades nerfed as annoying as they are.

Less QQ, more pew pew, ZOS honestly need to listen to the community less if crying for nerfs is all it's gonna do. ZOS should just listen to the class reps, and the class reps know which forum users are capable of valuable feedback. At least I think they do. So yeah, read into that all you like. I'm just gonna come out and say that a lot of you forum users' posts aren't worth a wooden nickel.

Stamsorc and Stamplar do not need bleeds to be viable, sounds like that's just a problem you are having. The 3 bleeds I mentioned are Blood Craze, Twin Blade and Blunt and Heavy Weapons Bleed, all of which are applied constantly with low effort.

Most hots people have access to even when combined wont come close to the damage of those bleed ticks alone. This is irrelevant anyways though, getting such high dmg ticks for free without investing anything is a bit silly to me.

Bleed are arguably worse than sets like sloads since you don't need to invest anything at all and they take 0 effort to utilize.

There is investment though. If you wanna build tanky those bleeds are gonna tickle. You need dmg sets to make the bleeds provide good pressure. How is applying bleeds any less effort than applying all the other DoTs in the game or a LA+incap combo from stealth? The only thing I have a problem with is DW/2h builds getting the nerf hammer again because of yet more forum whining. You clearly said that stamsorc/stamplar don't need bleeds to be viable. And if this is about low effort, you're fine with Sloads and proc sets but not with bleeds?

My stamden in 7th and other undisclosed sets literally can't die unless he's heavily defiled or outnumbered. Can't even give out what I'm running because I'm so sick of things being nerfed in this game. Duelled a stamsorc buddy running full bleeds with a good build. We fought for over 5 min until I finally got my full combo on him within his burst window. It's like a damn pillow fight when good builds fight each other. It's unfair for stamdens to have such beastmode healing if we're gonna nerf every source of damage in the game. Just cause stamblades can kill them easily doesn't make it balanced for every other class. Great, now stamdens are gonna get nerfed. **** these forums honestly, you people will never stop trying to nerf things. Please stop reading the forums ZOS.

I don't think sloads was fine for starters.

Bleeds will easily tick for high dmg unless you build stupidly tanky. I don't even need to slot any dmg sets for them to tick for at least 1300-1400. Other dots don't come close to the dmg provided by these stacked bleeds and require you to actually slot and use skills, the dmg isn't just passive.

Stamden has good healing and that's fine, you need to build it right and manage resources correctly. If anything I would like to see other underwhelming specs like stamplar or stamsorc see some love so they are capable of performing just as well in the right hands. I would say the same for Stamblade, I would rather see other classes brought to its level instead of nerfing it into oblivion, maybe with the exception of incap.

I just don't think free dmg or healing without investment or effort is the right way to go especially if its so effective. Use actual skills.

Checkmath

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Your magplar isn't achieving that by using 1 skill for starters. Bleeds also may tick every 2 seconds but this is also partly what makes them so powerful. You can line up burst with these ticks to deal more dmg than most spammable abilities can when combined with other dots like poison arrow or embers. Bleeds are the main reason why the stupid Spin2Win playstyle has become so common.

Bleeds are acting as a sort of burst dmg without actually taking the time to line up burst combos. Just slap on blood craze and a battle-axe for easy burst damage with very little effort or timing. Bleeds have essentially become a free spammable every 2 seconds for free. There is little to no reason at all to run a greatsword or maul now for this exact reason.

My Stamsorc can out-dot a MagDK (a class built around dots) using 1 skill and axes. Fair? I think not.

Huh guess I should check the patch notes cause last I checked Rending doesn't put 6+ bleeds on someone with one application.

Didn't say 6 bleeds. 3 are enough to be a problem.

3 bleeds are not happening with one application either. There are only 4 bleeds total that are easily available. Not gonna talk about Twin Sisters or other things that are technically bleeds. So we have rending, carve, and the 2 passive bleeds. That's 4 total, 2 with a separate 16% chance of application and one of them weak af. And most don't even run Carve. They tick every 2 seconds as opposed to most HoT which tick every second. You can literally put all 4 bleeds on a good stamden with DoT poisons and a spammable and they are outhealing it enough to stay offensive unless you use smart burst or defile. Stamsorc and Stamplar need bleeds to be viable. Stamblade in heavy can abuse bleeds the most but it's got little to do with bleeds and more to do with the tools at their disposal. And I don't want stamblades nerfed as annoying as they are.

Less QQ, more pew pew, ZOS honestly need to listen to the community less if crying for nerfs is all it's gonna do. ZOS should just listen to the class reps, and the class reps know which forum users are capable of valuable feedback. At least I think they do. So yeah, read into that all you like. I'm just gonna come out and say that a lot of you forum users' posts aren't worth a wooden nickel.

So you want to say, that nightblades and bleeds need a nerf?

Waffennacht

Checkmath wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Your magplar isn't achieving that by using 1 skill for starters. Bleeds also may tick every 2 seconds but this is also partly what makes them so powerful. You can line up burst with these ticks to deal more dmg than most spammable abilities can when combined with other dots like poison arrow or embers. Bleeds are the main reason why the stupid Spin2Win playstyle has become so common.

Bleeds are acting as a sort of burst dmg without actually taking the time to line up burst combos. Just slap on blood craze and a battle-axe for easy burst damage with very little effort or timing. Bleeds have essentially become a free spammable every 2 seconds for free. There is little to no reason at all to run a greatsword or maul now for this exact reason.

My Stamsorc can out-dot a MagDK (a class built around dots) using 1 skill and axes. Fair? I think not.

Huh guess I should check the patch notes cause last I checked Rending doesn't put 6+ bleeds on someone with one application.

Didn't say 6 bleeds. 3 are enough to be a problem.

3 bleeds are not happening with one application either. There are only 4 bleeds total that are easily available. Not gonna talk about Twin Sisters or other things that are technically bleeds. So we have rending, carve, and the 2 passive bleeds. That's 4 total, 2 with a separate 16% chance of application and one of them weak af. And most don't even run Carve. They tick every 2 seconds as opposed to most HoT which tick every second. You can literally put all 4 bleeds on a good stamden with DoT poisons and a spammable and they are outhealing it enough to stay offensive unless you use smart burst or defile. Stamsorc and Stamplar need bleeds to be viable. Stamblade in heavy can abuse bleeds the most but it's got little to do with bleeds and more to do with the tools at their disposal. And I don't want stamblades nerfed as annoying as they are.

Less QQ, more pew pew, ZOS honestly need to listen to the community less if crying for nerfs is all it's gonna do. ZOS should just listen to the class reps, and the class reps know which forum users are capable of valuable feedback. At least I think they do. So yeah, read into that all you like. I'm just gonna come out and say that a lot of you forum users' posts aren't worth a wooden nickel.

So you want to say, that nightblades and bleeds need a nerf?

NBs need a Nerf or to become the template in which other classes should be buffed to.

I think bleeds are strong.

I'm against the mentality that everything strong needs a Nerf.

Based on previous actions then bleeds will be nerfed.

I don't want them nerfed, I don't like that. I would prefer to see Magicka weapon skills become more interesting; I find the Destro tree very stagnant

Ragnarock41

Waffennacht wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Your magplar isn't achieving that by using 1 skill for starters. Bleeds also may tick every 2 seconds but this is also partly what makes them so powerful. You can line up burst with these ticks to deal more dmg than most spammable abilities can when combined with other dots like poison arrow or embers. Bleeds are the main reason why the stupid Spin2Win playstyle has become so common.

Bleeds are acting as a sort of burst dmg without actually taking the time to line up burst combos. Just slap on blood craze and a battle-axe for easy burst damage with very little effort or timing. Bleeds have essentially become a free spammable every 2 seconds for free. There is little to no reason at all to run a greatsword or maul now for this exact reason.

My Stamsorc can out-dot a MagDK (a class built around dots) using 1 skill and axes. Fair? I think not.

Huh guess I should check the patch notes cause last I checked Rending doesn't put 6+ bleeds on someone with one application.

Didn't say 6 bleeds. 3 are enough to be a problem.

3 bleeds are not happening with one application either. There are only 4 bleeds total that are easily available. Not gonna talk about Twin Sisters or other things that are technically bleeds. So we have rending, carve, and the 2 passive bleeds. That's 4 total, 2 with a separate 16% chance of application and one of them weak af. And most don't even run Carve. They tick every 2 seconds as opposed to most HoT which tick every second. You can literally put all 4 bleeds on a good stamden with DoT poisons and a spammable and they are outhealing it enough to stay offensive unless you use smart burst or defile. Stamsorc and Stamplar need bleeds to be viable. Stamblade in heavy can abuse bleeds the most but it's got little to do with bleeds and more to do with the tools at their disposal. And I don't want stamblades nerfed as annoying as they are.

Less QQ, more pew pew, ZOS honestly need to listen to the community less if crying for nerfs is all it's gonna do. ZOS should just listen to the class reps, and the class reps know which forum users are capable of valuable feedback. At least I think they do. So yeah, read into that all you like. I'm just gonna come out and say that a lot of you forum users' posts aren't worth a wooden nickel.

So you want to say, that nightblades and bleeds need a nerf?

NBs need a Nerf or to become the template in which other classes should be buffed to.

I think bleeds are strong.

I'm against the mentality that everything strong needs a Nerf.

Based on previous actions then bleeds will be nerfed.

I don't want them nerfed, I don't like that. I would prefer to see Magicka weapon skills become more interesting; I find the Destro tree very stagnant

The problem is most often not the nerf everything mentality, but the fact that they use a sledgehammer for those nerfs instead of adjusting things carefully and mathematically.

To you, bleeds might seem fine. To me it is gamebreaking since I also use dots, but none of them are as potent as a single free bleed proc.

wheem_ESO

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

To you, bleeds might seem fine. To me it is gamebreaking since I also use dots, but none of them are as potent as a single free bleed proc.

Indeed. It's sort of funny that I, as a Stage 4 Vampire, have more fear of bleeds than I do Mag DK DOTs. While it's not as bad as it was when "Glyphgate" was in full force, the damage (at least in no CP) is simply too high for what opportunity cost is involved. It seems absurd to me that you can proc a DOT that ends up doing more damage than activated DOTs from other classes.

Waffennacht

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Your magplar isn't achieving that by using 1 skill for starters. Bleeds also may tick every 2 seconds but this is also partly what makes them so powerful. You can line up burst with these ticks to deal more dmg than most spammable abilities can when combined with other dots like poison arrow or embers. Bleeds are the main reason why the stupid Spin2Win playstyle has become so common.

Bleeds are acting as a sort of burst dmg without actually taking the time to line up burst combos. Just slap on blood craze and a battle-axe for easy burst damage with very little effort or timing. Bleeds have essentially become a free spammable every 2 seconds for free. There is little to no reason at all to run a greatsword or maul now for this exact reason.

My Stamsorc can out-dot a MagDK (a class built around dots) using 1 skill and axes. Fair? I think not.

Huh guess I should check the patch notes cause last I checked Rending doesn't put 6+ bleeds on someone with one application.

Didn't say 6 bleeds. 3 are enough to be a problem.

3 bleeds are not happening with one application either. There are only 4 bleeds total that are easily available. Not gonna talk about Twin Sisters or other things that are technically bleeds. So we have rending, carve, and the 2 passive bleeds. That's 4 total, 2 with a separate 16% chance of application and one of them weak af. And most don't even run Carve. They tick every 2 seconds as opposed to most HoT which tick every second. You can literally put all 4 bleeds on a good stamden with DoT poisons and a spammable and they are outhealing it enough to stay offensive unless you use smart burst or defile. Stamsorc and Stamplar need bleeds to be viable. Stamblade in heavy can abuse bleeds the most but it's got little to do with bleeds and more to do with the tools at their disposal. And I don't want stamblades nerfed as annoying as they are.

Less QQ, more pew pew, ZOS honestly need to listen to the community less if crying for nerfs is all it's gonna do. ZOS should just listen to the class reps, and the class reps know which forum users are capable of valuable feedback. At least I think they do. So yeah, read into that all you like. I'm just gonna come out and say that a lot of you forum users' posts aren't worth a wooden nickel.

So you want to say, that nightblades and bleeds need a nerf?

NBs need a Nerf or to become the template in which other classes should be buffed to.

I think bleeds are strong.

I'm against the mentality that everything strong needs a Nerf.

Based on previous actions then bleeds will be nerfed.

I don't want them nerfed, I don't like that. I would prefer to see Magicka weapon skills become more interesting; I find the Destro tree very stagnant

The problem is most often not the nerf everything mentality, but the fact that they use a sledgehammer for those nerfs instead of adjusting things carefully and mathematically.

To you, bleeds might seem fine. To me it is gamebreaking since I also use dots, but none of them are as potent as a single free bleed proc.

I agree, but would rather Magicka get something comparable.

Maybe not this idea but something like destructive reach's dot being Oblivion damage (imo Oblivion damage should be magicka's equivalent to bleeds)

Obviously that idea is a little too good, but I think the idea is there.

When I look at the weapon lines compared to Destro staff I see a big disparity. Only 2 useable attacks, 1 of which is meh in PvP (or both depending on how you look at it)

It doesn't have the utility of SnB, it doesn't have the damage of Bow, doesn't have the 1vX capabilities of DW, doesn't have the hard hitting abilities of 2H.

Btw, if or when the 2H ult gains popularity, bleeds in conjunction is intense.

Hard CC into 2H is a very solid way to deal 5-8k in no CP in one attack

Minno

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Your magplar isn't achieving that by using 1 skill for starters. Bleeds also may tick every 2 seconds but this is also partly what makes them so powerful. You can line up burst with these ticks to deal more dmg than most spammable abilities can when combined with other dots like poison arrow or embers. Bleeds are the main reason why the stupid Spin2Win playstyle has become so common.

Bleeds are acting as a sort of burst dmg without actually taking the time to line up burst combos. Just slap on blood craze and a battle-axe for easy burst damage with very little effort or timing. Bleeds have essentially become a free spammable every 2 seconds for free. There is little to no reason at all to run a greatsword or maul now for this exact reason.

My Stamsorc can out-dot a MagDK (a class built around dots) using 1 skill and axes. Fair? I think not.

Huh guess I should check the patch notes cause last I checked Rending doesn't put 6+ bleeds on someone with one application.

Didn't say 6 bleeds. 3 are enough to be a problem.

3 bleeds are not happening with one application either. There are only 4 bleeds total that are easily available. Not gonna talk about Twin Sisters or other things that are technically bleeds. So we have rending, carve, and the 2 passive bleeds. That's 4 total, 2 with a separate 16% chance of application and one of them weak af. And most don't even run Carve. They tick every 2 seconds as opposed to most HoT which tick every second. You can literally put all 4 bleeds on a good stamden with DoT poisons and a spammable and they are outhealing it enough to stay offensive unless you use smart burst or defile. Stamsorc and Stamplar need bleeds to be viable. Stamblade in heavy can abuse bleeds the most but it's got little to do with bleeds and more to do with the tools at their disposal. And I don't want stamblades nerfed as annoying as they are.

Less QQ, more pew pew, ZOS honestly need to listen to the community less if crying for nerfs is all it's gonna do. ZOS should just listen to the class reps, and the class reps know which forum users are capable of valuable feedback. At least I think they do. So yeah, read into that all you like. I'm just gonna come out and say that a lot of you forum users' posts aren't worth a wooden nickel.

So you want to say, that nightblades and bleeds need a nerf?

NBs need a Nerf or to become the template in which other classes should be buffed to.

I think bleeds are strong.

I'm against the mentality that everything strong needs a Nerf.

Based on previous actions then bleeds will be nerfed.

I don't want them nerfed, I don't like that. I would prefer to see Magicka weapon skills become more interesting; I find the Destro tree very stagnant

The problem is most often not the nerf everything mentality, but the fact that they use a sledgehammer for those nerfs instead of adjusting things carefully and mathematically.

To you, bleeds might seem fine. To me it is gamebreaking since I also use dots, but none of them are as potent as a single free bleed proc.

I agree, but would rather Magicka get something comparable.

Maybe not this idea but something like destructive reach's dot being Oblivion damage (imo Oblivion damage should be magicka's equivalent to bleeds)

Obviously that idea is a little too good, but I think the idea is there.

When I look at the weapon lines compared to Destro staff I see a big disparity. Only 2 useable attacks, 1 of which is meh in PvP (or both depending on how you look at it)

It doesn't have the utility of SnB, it doesn't have the damage of Bow, doesn't have the 1vX capabilities of DW, doesn't have the hard hitting abilities of 2H.

Btw, if or when the 2H ult gains popularity, bleeds in conjunction is intense.

Hard CC into 2H is a very solid way to deal 5-8k in no CP in one attack

destro passives bumped to 15% or 20% armor reduction.

Burtan

Lets not make magicka bleeds or free dmg a thing. People should be using actual abilities to deal dmg instead of relying on procs.

pieratsos

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Your magplar isn't achieving that by using 1 skill for starters. Bleeds also may tick every 2 seconds but this is also partly what makes them so powerful. You can line up burst with these ticks to deal more dmg than most spammable abilities can when combined with other dots like poison arrow or embers. Bleeds are the main reason why the stupid Spin2Win playstyle has become so common.

Bleeds are acting as a sort of burst dmg without actually taking the time to line up burst combos. Just slap on blood craze and a battle-axe for easy burst damage with very little effort or timing. Bleeds have essentially become a free spammable every 2 seconds for free. There is little to no reason at all to run a greatsword or maul now for this exact reason.

My Stamsorc can out-dot a MagDK (a class built around dots) using 1 skill and axes. Fair? I think not.

Huh guess I should check the patch notes cause last I checked Rending doesn't put 6+ bleeds on someone with one application.

Didn't say 6 bleeds. 3 are enough to be a problem.

3 bleeds are not happening with one application either. There are only 4 bleeds total that are easily available. Not gonna talk about Twin Sisters or other things that are technically bleeds. So we have rending, carve, and the 2 passive bleeds. That's 4 total, 2 with a separate 16% chance of application and one of them weak af. And most don't even run Carve. They tick every 2 seconds as opposed to most HoT which tick every second. You can literally put all 4 bleeds on a good stamden with DoT poisons and a spammable and they are outhealing it enough to stay offensive unless you use smart burst or defile. Stamsorc and Stamplar need bleeds to be viable. Stamblade in heavy can abuse bleeds the most but it's got little to do with bleeds and more to do with the tools at their disposal. And I don't want stamblades nerfed as annoying as they are.

Less QQ, more pew pew, ZOS honestly need to listen to the community less if crying for nerfs is all it's gonna do. ZOS should just listen to the class reps, and the class reps know which forum users are capable of valuable feedback. At least I think they do. So yeah, read into that all you like. I'm just gonna come out and say that a lot of you forum users' posts aren't worth a wooden nickel.

So you want to say, that nightblades and bleeds need a nerf?

NBs need a Nerf or to become the template in which other classes should be buffed to.

I think bleeds are strong.

I'm against the mentality that everything strong needs a Nerf.

Based on previous actions then bleeds will be nerfed.

I don't want them nerfed, I don't like that. I would prefer to see Magicka weapon skills become more interesting; I find the Destro tree very stagnant

The problem is most often not the nerf everything mentality, but the fact that they use a sledgehammer for those nerfs instead of adjusting things carefully and mathematically.

To you, bleeds might seem fine. To me it is gamebreaking since I also use dots, but none of them are as potent as a single free bleed proc.

I agree, but would rather Magicka get something comparable.

Maybe not this idea but something like destructive reach's dot being Oblivion damage (imo Oblivion damage should be magicka's equivalent to bleeds)

Obviously that idea is a little too good, but I think the idea is there.

When I look at the weapon lines compared to Destro staff I see a big disparity. Only 2 useable attacks, 1 of which is meh in PvP (or both depending on how you look at it)

It doesn't have the utility of SnB, it doesn't have the damage of Bow, doesn't have the 1vX capabilities of DW, doesn't have the hard hitting abilities of 2H.

Btw, if or when the 2H ult gains popularity, bleeds in conjunction is intense.

Hard CC into 2H is a very solid way to deal 5-8k in no CP in one attack

Yes cause obviously judging from the other sources of oblivion dmg, what we need now to make the game better and more balanced is more oblivion dmg. Then we can replace physical dmg with bleed dmg. Then magic dmg with oblivion dmg. In the meantime we need to keep adding procs to the game of course. And then we can finally let the game to R.I.P.

Ragnarock41

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Your magplar isn't achieving that by using 1 skill for starters. Bleeds also may tick every 2 seconds but this is also partly what makes them so powerful. You can line up burst with these ticks to deal more dmg than most spammable abilities can when combined with other dots like poison arrow or embers. Bleeds are the main reason why the stupid Spin2Win playstyle has become so common.

Bleeds are acting as a sort of burst dmg without actually taking the time to line up burst combos. Just slap on blood craze and a battle-axe for easy burst damage with very little effort or timing. Bleeds have essentially become a free spammable every 2 seconds for free. There is little to no reason at all to run a greatsword or maul now for this exact reason.

My Stamsorc can out-dot a MagDK (a class built around dots) using 1 skill and axes. Fair? I think not.

Huh guess I should check the patch notes cause last I checked Rending doesn't put 6+ bleeds on someone with one application.

Didn't say 6 bleeds. 3 are enough to be a problem.

3 bleeds are not happening with one application either. There are only 4 bleeds total that are easily available. Not gonna talk about Twin Sisters or other things that are technically bleeds. So we have rending, carve, and the 2 passive bleeds. That's 4 total, 2 with a separate 16% chance of application and one of them weak af. And most don't even run Carve. They tick every 2 seconds as opposed to most HoT which tick every second. You can literally put all 4 bleeds on a good stamden with DoT poisons and a spammable and they are outhealing it enough to stay offensive unless you use smart burst or defile. Stamsorc and Stamplar need bleeds to be viable. Stamblade in heavy can abuse bleeds the most but it's got little to do with bleeds and more to do with the tools at their disposal. And I don't want stamblades nerfed as annoying as they are.

Less QQ, more pew pew, ZOS honestly need to listen to the community less if crying for nerfs is all it's gonna do. ZOS should just listen to the class reps, and the class reps know which forum users are capable of valuable feedback. At least I think they do. So yeah, read into that all you like. I'm just gonna come out and say that a lot of you forum users' posts aren't worth a wooden nickel.

So you want to say, that nightblades and bleeds need a nerf?

NBs need a Nerf or to become the template in which other classes should be buffed to.

I think bleeds are strong.

I'm against the mentality that everything strong needs a Nerf.

Based on previous actions then bleeds will be nerfed.

I don't want them nerfed, I don't like that. I would prefer to see Magicka weapon skills become more interesting; I find the Destro tree very stagnant

The problem is most often not the nerf everything mentality, but the fact that they use a sledgehammer for those nerfs instead of adjusting things carefully and mathematically.

To you, bleeds might seem fine. To me it is gamebreaking since I also use dots, but none of them are as potent as a single free bleed proc.

I agree, but would rather Magicka get something comparable.

Maybe not this idea but something like destructive reach's dot being Oblivion damage (imo Oblivion damage should be magicka's equivalent to bleeds)

Obviously that idea is a little too good, but I think the idea is there.

When I look at the weapon lines compared to Destro staff I see a big disparity. Only 2 useable attacks, 1 of which is meh in PvP (or both depending on how you look at it)

It doesn't have the utility of SnB, it doesn't have the damage of Bow, doesn't have the 1vX capabilities of DW, doesn't have the hard hitting abilities of 2H.

Btw, if or when the 2H ult gains popularity, bleeds in conjunction is intense.

Hard CC into 2H is a very solid way to deal 5-8k in no CP in one attack

Magicka bleeds would only make the situation worse, because at that point any other dot would also need to perk of ''ignoring resistances'' to be able to compete with them. Which is the current issue Dk dots are having versus bleeds.

resistances exist for a reason. penetration exists for a reason. Bleeds are just very outdated.

Back when they felt somewhat balanced, without any special investments I could get like 12k physical penetration, with 5k sharpened, 5k from major fracture, a little bit from crusher enchant(remember when that was a part of PvP meta? good times) and with a set like TFS or spriggan my claws would easily shred through most of resistances.

Obviously the heavy nerfs to penetration over the time meant that bleeds just got a lot stronger and attractive. But this isn't a good thing. Whenever a dot is hitting people as hard as a spammable every 2 seconds, thats bad design.

Waffennacht

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Your magplar isn't achieving that by using 1 skill for starters. Bleeds also may tick every 2 seconds but this is also partly what makes them so powerful. You can line up burst with these ticks to deal more dmg than most spammable abilities can when combined with other dots like poison arrow or embers. Bleeds are the main reason why the stupid Spin2Win playstyle has become so common.

Bleeds are acting as a sort of burst dmg without actually taking the time to line up burst combos. Just slap on blood craze and a battle-axe for easy burst damage with very little effort or timing. Bleeds have essentially become a free spammable every 2 seconds for free. There is little to no reason at all to run a greatsword or maul now for this exact reason.

My Stamsorc can out-dot a MagDK (a class built around dots) using 1 skill and axes. Fair? I think not.

Huh guess I should check the patch notes cause last I checked Rending doesn't put 6+ bleeds on someone with one application.

Didn't say 6 bleeds. 3 are enough to be a problem.

3 bleeds are not happening with one application either. There are only 4 bleeds total that are easily available. Not gonna talk about Twin Sisters or other things that are technically bleeds. So we have rending, carve, and the 2 passive bleeds. That's 4 total, 2 with a separate 16% chance of application and one of them weak af. And most don't even run Carve. They tick every 2 seconds as opposed to most HoT which tick every second. You can literally put all 4 bleeds on a good stamden with DoT poisons and a spammable and they are outhealing it enough to stay offensive unless you use smart burst or defile. Stamsorc and Stamplar need bleeds to be viable. Stamblade in heavy can abuse bleeds the most but it's got little to do with bleeds and more to do with the tools at their disposal. And I don't want stamblades nerfed as annoying as they are.

Less QQ, more pew pew, ZOS honestly need to listen to the community less if crying for nerfs is all it's gonna do. ZOS should just listen to the class reps, and the class reps know which forum users are capable of valuable feedback. At least I think they do. So yeah, read into that all you like. I'm just gonna come out and say that a lot of you forum users' posts aren't worth a wooden nickel.

So you want to say, that nightblades and bleeds need a nerf?

NBs need a Nerf or to become the template in which other classes should be buffed to.

I think bleeds are strong.

I'm against the mentality that everything strong needs a Nerf.

Based on previous actions then bleeds will be nerfed.

I don't want them nerfed, I don't like that. I would prefer to see Magicka weapon skills become more interesting; I find the Destro tree very stagnant

The problem is most often not the nerf everything mentality, but the fact that they use a sledgehammer for those nerfs instead of adjusting things carefully and mathematically.

To you, bleeds might seem fine. To me it is gamebreaking since I also use dots, but none of them are as potent as a single free bleed proc.

I agree, but would rather Magicka get something comparable.

Maybe not this idea but something like destructive reach's dot being Oblivion damage (imo Oblivion damage should be magicka's equivalent to bleeds)

Obviously that idea is a little too good, but I think the idea is there.

When I look at the weapon lines compared to Destro staff I see a big disparity. Only 2 useable attacks, 1 of which is meh in PvP (or both depending on how you look at it)

It doesn't have the utility of SnB, it doesn't have the damage of Bow, doesn't have the 1vX capabilities of DW, doesn't have the hard hitting abilities of 2H.

Btw, if or when the 2H ult gains popularity, bleeds in conjunction is intense.

Hard CC into 2H is a very solid way to deal 5-8k in no CP in one attack

Magicka bleeds would only make the situation worse, because at that point any other dot would also need to perk of ''ignoring resistances'' to be able to compete with them. Which is the current issue Dk dots are having versus bleeds.

resistances exist for a reason. penetration exists for a reason. Bleeds are just very outdated.

Back when they felt somewhat balanced, without any special investments I could get like 12k physical penetration, with 5k sharpened, 5k from major fracture, a little bit from crusher enchant(remember when that was a part of PvP meta? good times) and with a set like TFS or spriggan my claws would easily shred through most of resistances.

Obviously the heavy nerfs to penetration over the time meant that bleeds just got a lot stronger and attractive. But this isn't a good thing. Whenever a dot is hitting people as hard as a spammable every 2 seconds, thats bad design.

A very well thought out post, something I hadn't considered.

I shall definitely be re-evaluating, well done sir @Ragnarock41

usmguy1234

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Definite bleed user detected. Just like bleeds, you expect memes to do all the work for you without first learning the mechanics behind the system. If there's anything that annoys me more than someone using a meme out of context, it's someone who tries to justify cheese in this game.

Enough things have been nerfed into oblivion already, it's seriously curbing the enthusiasm of myself and plenty of others for this game. The few things I care enough about anymore to comment on can be summed up in a meme, and rarely deserve more thought out responses than that.

The arguments against bleeds posited by people in this thread are simply not compelling. It's a 16% chance at best for each passive bleed. All bleeds tick every 2 seconds, not every 1 second. Proc sets proccing off bleeds mean bleeds are OP? Glyphs hitting off DoTs is a bleed issue? Double DoT poisons are a bleed issue? Incap boosting things by 20% is a bleed issue? There is no "free kill with no effort" against an opponent who is properly built and plays well. Purge and healing are both a thing. And while I recognize that bleeds coupled with befoul+defile is very strong, the amount of healing possible in this game make them necessary counters. It's not like an instagib from stealth, you can see what they are doing and have time to react to what's going on unlike LA+incap combos. And if you have no answer to bleeds, it's a L2Build or L2Play issue. Plenty of other things are viable and all I hear here are ppl whining to make yet another mechanic/playstyle useless.

Maces should be buffed a bit but no reason to nerf axes.

Feel free to impart your wisdom on game mechanics and how to meme correctly.

The problem that I see is that you are saying that the arguments made by other people in this thread are not compelling while staunchly asserting that yours is. I've been down that road with the shield issue and the one thing I learned from that is to not clutch on a certain playstyle because it could very well be ripped from your cold, dead fingers. Now, I play a setup that's so underwhelming that it even surprises me when I kill someone. Yeah, it's aggravating to be mowed down by a fotm player but his build could become more irrelevant than mine in the next pts cycle.

So to sum: "My build got massively screwed by whiners, so it's only fair if it happens to others too." Pretty much sums up the forums at this point. My magplar DoT build can put out just as much pressure as a bleed build. He smokes bleed builds 1v1. If you can't deal with bleeds then change your build or L2P. Some of the posts here are just downright stupid.The OP is on track to become a meme at this point.

Your magplar isn't achieving that by using 1 skill for starters. Bleeds also may tick every 2 seconds but this is also partly what makes them so powerful. You can line up burst with these ticks to deal more dmg than most spammable abilities can when combined with other dots like poison arrow or embers. Bleeds are the main reason why the stupid Spin2Win playstyle has become so common.

Bleeds are acting as a sort of burst dmg without actually taking the time to line up burst combos. Just slap on blood craze and a battle-axe for easy burst damage with very little effort or timing. Bleeds have essentially become a free spammable every 2 seconds for free. There is little to no reason at all to run a greatsword or maul now for this exact reason.

My Stamsorc can out-dot a MagDK (a class built around dots) using 1 skill and axes. Fair? I think not.

Huh guess I should check the patch notes cause last I checked Rending doesn't put 6+ bleeds on someone with one application.

Didn't say 6 bleeds. 3 are enough to be a problem.

3 bleeds are not happening with one application either. There are only 4 bleeds total that are easily available. Not gonna talk about Twin Sisters or other things that are technically bleeds. So we have rending, carve, and the 2 passive bleeds. That's 4 total, 2 with a separate 16% chance of application and one of them weak af. And most don't even run Carve. They tick every 2 seconds as opposed to most HoT which tick every second. You can literally put all 4 bleeds on a good stamden with DoT poisons and a spammable and they are outhealing it enough to stay offensive unless you use smart burst or defile. Stamsorc and Stamplar need bleeds to be viable. Stamblade in heavy can abuse bleeds the most but it's got little to do with bleeds and more to do with the tools at their disposal. And I don't want stamblades nerfed as annoying as they are.

Less QQ, more pew pew, ZOS honestly need to listen to the community less if crying for nerfs is all it's gonna do. ZOS should just listen to the class reps, and the class reps know which forum users are capable of valuable feedback. At least I think they do. So yeah, read into that all you like. I'm just gonna come out and say that a lot of you forum users' posts aren't worth a wooden nickel.

So you want to say, that nightblades and bleeds need a nerf?

NBs need a Nerf or to become the template in which other classes should be buffed to.

I think bleeds are strong.

I'm against the mentality that everything strong needs a Nerf.

Based on previous actions then bleeds will be nerfed.

I don't want them nerfed, I don't like that. I would prefer to see Magicka weapon skills become more interesting; I find the Destro tree very stagnant

The problem is most often not the nerf everything mentality, but the fact that they use a sledgehammer for those nerfs instead of adjusting things carefully and mathematically.

To you, bleeds might seem fine. To me it is gamebreaking since I also use dots, but none of them are as potent as a single free bleed proc.

I agree, but would rather Magicka get something comparable.

Maybe not this idea but something like destructive reach's dot being Oblivion damage (imo Oblivion damage should be magicka's equivalent to bleeds)

Obviously that idea is a little too good, but I think the idea is there.

When I look at the weapon lines compared to Destro staff I see a big disparity. Only 2 useable attacks, 1 of which is meh in PvP (or both depending on how you look at it)

It doesn't have the utility of SnB, it doesn't have the damage of Bow, doesn't have the 1vX capabilities of DW, doesn't have the hard hitting abilities of 2H.

Btw, if or when the 2H ult gains popularity, bleeds in conjunction is intense.

Hard CC into 2H is a very solid way to deal 5-8k in no CP in one attack

Magicka bleeds would only make the situation worse, because at that point any other dot would also need to perk of ''ignoring resistances'' to be able to compete with them. Which is the current issue Dk dots are having versus bleeds.

resistances exist for a reason. penetration exists for a reason. Bleeds are just very outdated.

Back when they felt somewhat balanced, without any special investments I could get like 12k physical penetration, with 5k sharpened, 5k from major fracture, a little bit from crusher enchant(remember when that was a part of PvP meta? good times) and with a set like TFS or spriggan my claws would easily shred through most of resistances.

Obviously the heavy nerfs to penetration over the time meant that bleeds just got a lot stronger and attractive. But this isn't a good thing. Whenever a dot is hitting people as hard as a spammable every 2 seconds, thats bad design.

A very well thought out post, something I hadn't considered.

I shall definitely be re-evaluating, well done sir @Ragnarock41

This plus survivability nerfs in the past pushed it over the top. It's literally a testament to which of the three Zos has "touched" the least other the years. I'm pretty sure the answer is bleeds.

GC0

Bleeds are fine what do you mean they're broken? :^)

https://imgur.com/a/0DrzmgD

haakira

What I would like to see personally, since bleeds are "supposed" to be targeted at dealing with tankier opponents, is that they would do more damage the more physical resistance you have. Sort of "the heavier you are, the more you bleed".

That way, medium armor and light armor builds wouldn't struggle as much with bleeds since they have less HP and healing in general to deal with multiple instances of bleeding, and people would still have ways of dealing with tanks and healers in heavy armor defensive setups.

technohic

I like how this thread evolved. Mostly 1 guy bringing them up while being a templar. All out ridicule and laughter. Fast forward to today, and it's no longer a debate on the power of bleeds, but more of how they adjust them or adjust other things to catch up.

Checkmath

technohic wrote: »

I like how this thread evolved. Mostly 1 guy bringing them up while being a templar. All out ridicule and laughter. Fast forward to today, and it's no longer a debate on the power of bleeds, but more of how they adjust them or adjust other things to catch up.

I think he does not play magplar anymore. H recently tried magblade, magwarden and stamplar if I remember correctly.

sly007

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Honestly only one thing needs to be changed:

Undead are immune to bleeding damage

This is TES universe, and Undead have NEVER in the lore history of the game been vulnerable to bleeding damage. Undead literally have no blood to bleed. So if your vampire you should be immune to bleeding just like Argonians are immunue to the Diseased and Poisoned Status effect, Dark Elves are immune to the Burning Status effect, and Bosmer are immune to the Diseased and Poisoned Status effect.

If Vampires/Undead are going to be weak to fire and Dawnbreaker(which by lore is accurate) then they most certainly should be immune to bleeding.

This is about too accurate. I hate that it makes sense but I can't help agreeing. Give werewolves immunity to something then. I know very little about lore.

BigBadVolk

sly007 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Honestly only one thing needs to be changed:

Undead are immune to bleeding damage

This is TES universe, and Undead have NEVER in the lore history of the game been vulnerable to bleeding damage. Undead literally have no blood to bleed. So if your vampire you should be immune to bleeding just like Argonians are immunue to the Diseased and Poisoned Status effect, Dark Elves are immune to the Burning Status effect, and Bosmer are immune to the Diseased and Poisoned Status effect.

If Vampires/Undead are going to be weak to fire and Dawnbreaker(which by lore is accurate) then they most certainly should be immune to bleeding.

This is about too accurate. I hate that it makes sense but I can't help agreeing. Give werewolves immunity to something then. I know very little about lore.

against cats?

sly007

Qbiken wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

Now that, that's out of the way...
You listed plenty of methods for MAGIC users to attempt to counter bleeds but what about stam users???
So minor maim seems the only potential counter.
Has anyone even tested this to ensure it works properly and reduces bleed ticks?
Also, bleeds EAT shields, how many times can a bleed tick?
I'm use to seeing that 4th or 5th tick being OVER 10k

Regarding cloak: I can be wrong about it "supressing" bleeds, in that case I take that one back.

The werewolf bleed-dot, Twin-blade and blunt bleed and the 2handed bleed-passive ticks once every 2 seconds (that I´m almost 100% sure of). Only few occasions I´ve seen a single bleed-tick doing over 10k is with vMA dual-wield empowered bleed but those are rare if you ask me. Regarding if maim reduces bleed-tick damage:
I´ve tried it with the werewolf light attack bleed and it does reduce my damage. So unless other sources of bleed is bugged I don´t see why they shouldn behave differently.

Stamina in general: Your best way to counter bleed is to out-heal it.
- Vigor
- Rally/Forward momentum
- Trollking (Not to un-common on stamina builds these days if you ask me)
- Potions (Vitaliy/lingering pots are really strong)

So what ways do stamina setups of the different classes have counter bleed? Lets say we can´t use purge-mechanics but we´ve access to the general arsenal of stamina-based heals as mentioned above + minor maim from heroic slash.

Stamina Templar:
- Rune Focus: Gives us minor protection and minor vitality. Minor protection will reduce incoming bleed-damage and minor vitality will increase your healing received.

Stamina Sorc:
- Hurricane + Critsurge: On it´s own not going to carry you against a DoT-build, but on top of other sources of heal it helps.

Stamina DK:
- Only option I can think of here is to utilize Green Dragonblood + Dragonic power passives. Very expensive but it helps you boost your sources of heals (which takes us back to the general way for stambuilds to counter bleeds: Outheal it). So stamDK´s can have trouble with bleed-builds. Also trying to synergies your heals with major mending from Igneous Shield is an option even on a staminaDK

Stamina nightblade:
- Mass hysteria + Shade for minor maim: Both are used on stamblades as well, at least Mass hysteria is. But as a nightblade using vigor into cloak and then pop rally will cause all those heals to crit-heal while you´re in stealth. Last time I played nightblade I wasn´t instantly pulled out of cloak while having a bleed/dot on me.

Stamina Warden:
- Probably the easiest class to play if you want to outheal a DoT build. Cheap ultimate, easy access to major mending. Easy access to minor protection through Ice Fortress.

So I would say stamDK and somewhat stamblade is the stamsetups that have the hardest time dealing with bleed/dot builds. But try to look at it this way: Bleed is the way to counter these extremely tanky builds (and very often they´re stamina DK´s). For me it´s balanced that some setups/classes have counters.

All these counters are not specific to bleeds. It's like saying proc sets are over performing then you go to list all styles off preventing damage, helping, and reducing damage.

A counter to damage is the same boy should use for bleeds. Except bleeds ignore resistance. That makes them behem better than other dot. Why not just make them a dot just as they are except no bypassing resistance.

Sky_WK

Skander wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Permablock templars

I eat pie

Thank you

> this is what your post sounds like. Care to elaborate? Or is this another one of those "pls nerf I can't beat it" comments that you like to make?

1) it's moronic to go trought all resistences
2) It's moronic that you can win with light attacks and 1 skill
3) it's moronic that bleed doesn't cost much since it's a proc.

Im just here to say this is a really stupid list and if you're to light attacks and 1 skill you should get the *** off of the forums and spend some time learning to play

thoughtseize

Sixty5 wrote: »

If you remove bleed then you are removing the only real solo counter to permablock tanks.

It is the lesser of two evils.

hi! permablock magplar support healer here. bleeds don't really do all that much and just get cleansed anyway for me.

RinaldoGandolphi

If your not a Templar, then countering Bleeds is done by running:

1. a HOT like Rapid Regen, Vigor, etc
2. Lingering Health Pots that give Major Vitality

those Lingering Health pots will pretty much render bleeds completely ineffective against you(even if they are using Master Axes), and if your running Earthgore or Chokethorn its even funnier...those Lingering Health pots put out an absurd amount of self healing even if your defiled...they are banned from most duels for very good reason.

I say use them, folks want to cheese bleeds, you cheese them right back with Lingering Health pots...pretty sad the game has come to this. Its why I don't play as much as i used to. They will get around to changing bleeds, 6 months or so from now...good luck with that.

Skander

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

If your not a Templar, then countering Bleeds is done by running:

1. a HOT like Rapid Regen, Vigor, etc
2. Lingering Health Pots that give Major Vitality

those Lingering Health pots will pretty much render bleeds completely ineffective against you(even if they are using Master Axes), and if your running Earthgore or Chokethorn its even funnier...those Lingering Health pots put out an absurd amount of self healing even if your defiled...they are banned from most duels for very good reason.

I say use them, folks want to cheese bleeds, you cheese them right back with Lingering Health pots...pretty sad the game has come to this. Its why I don't play as much as i used to. They will get around to changing bleeds, 6 months or so from now...good luck with that.

You know that healing isn't for countering bleeds. But healing yourself right?

Anethum

i think bleed dots should be compared with another dots, like dk's...and they win this comparison easy as hell esp with master weapons in hands.
Last 1,5 year i used on stamdk almost always Brawler and Blood craze instead own dots, because of big difference in a bad way for dk's dots.
"Old school" with sword and board + 2hander for stamdk as for me is less viable and less bursty last 1,5 years. even in last 2 patches when snare immunity from Scales made stamdk more adequate. Because of "bleed's" effect.
Last ones are chieper now, cool but this is only 1 +.
Because weapon dot's Ignore resists, one heal u, another one gives u more defence/or monor heroism in worse case, also 2 passives from axes...enchant's or poison's procs...
Here absolutly dumb thing really if to investigate this problem deeply/
Things which pretends to be unique (class abilities) should give ~ some interesting alternatives, not worst choice...

And, this problem is a part of global problem of Purge and Cloak mechanics, which gives for nightblades and templars too big preferences before another 3. I see here a very big space for changes to make gameplay more cool.

What i think should be done with bleeds...first thing i feel should be to replace passive for bleed's from axes to for example % of splash damage. Or % bonus to dot's effect when axes equipped.
In such case we remove one more "proc" trash, and at the same time axes saves their usability.
(and mauybe at least mace's passive will be changed automaticly also to flat numbers instead stupid % of the resists which lasts after all resist debuffs = nothing...)
@ZOS_Wrobel what do u think about this?