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Could we please be a bit more noob (new player) friendly?
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NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
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It is by me and others I team with, because it's the best available measure, and I'd appreciate you not saying it isn't. Because that's false information and perpetuating this myth is what creates the hostility. New players don't have any knowledge of this hostility innately, they learn it from people spreading this garbage.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Meaning CP is not being interpreted as account age
1. Because that’s false information
2. Because CP level doesn’t measure account age
Maybe by others, but I see it routinely attributed to me erroneously. You're arguing against generalization and lumping people into categories based on arbitrary information yet have no qualms doing precisely that yourself.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Meaning that actually CP is being used as a means to determine who does and does not qualify
1. And that in itself is a form of elitism
2. Everyone actually doesn’t know and doesn’t believe CP means good, bad, experienced, noob
CP means the account has gained X amount of experience points after the conversion was made. It's just about the closest measure to /played time as one can get that isn't character specific. I know for sure that the XP was gained and that is precisely how it works. As said before, exceptions exist to every system and I'm sure some people farmed their way to max. Systems have flaws but they're only guidelines and not the hard and fast. As said before, it's up to others to prove themselves. You don't apply for a job as a newbie and expect to be taken seriously. Not unless you come with a padded resume of accolades and approvals, and even then you're the new fish. Yet as mentioned, new players, due to THREADS LIKE THIS, have been coming in with saintly expectations that are beyond unrealistic and demanding.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Also, it’s not correct to assign those assumptions generally speaking because
1. You don’t know for sure
2. That’s not what CP means or how it works
The discussion can stay in the discussion while my post can stay as my post and be addressed as an individual the same way you want others to be. The discussion is not pertaining to what you decide the discussion is pertaining to. The original post and topic title are self-explanatory and addressed accordingly. You're only pushing your own agenda as the "point of the discussion" and attempting to divide the player base into one of two categories, the with-us or against-us.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »That’s the actual point of the discussion.
That is exactly why this posts exists.
People are creating their own “ways” to include, exclude and measure people. The tool you seek to use isn’t a measuring tool first of all. It’s only a measure of a certain type of in game exp during certain ever changing ratios and rates given in an undefined method.
It has absolutely nothing to do with a persons experience and ability to hold a role or perform.
Levels 1-49 are not the same progress measure as CP 1-3600
Also, no the discussion isn’t what you decide it pertains to.
Edited by NewBlacksmurf on February 16, 2018 3:56PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5011 -
LordSemaj✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Also, no the discussion isn’t what you decide it pertains to.
Right back at you. This is what the discussion pertains to, nothing more.WhiteScythe wrote: »And not so damn elitist. There are plenty of new and returning players who are trying to get into the game so the bullying and put downs aren't helping the game's population. We need these people to hang around for the game's future. I'm getting sick of the constant crappy behaviour.
Rant over.
DID YOU JUST ASSUME THE OP'S AGENDA??NewBlacksmurf wrote: »That is exactly why this posts exists.
Try actually reading his posts.
Nothing to do with CP.WhiteScythe wrote: »In-game and possibly on the forums I don't keep too much of an eye on things around here but it's pretty bad in game. Example; a normal dungeon. Someone was forced to leave the dungeon because they didn't have food. This person was getting crapped on in the chat and when I said guys relax it's alright don't stress about it they were attacking me as well.
That person left the dungeon and messaged me saying he's never going to do a dungeon again if that's the way people are.
Nothing to do with CP.WhiteScythe wrote: »And yes I agree. The skills advisor is a step in the right direction but we need more unfortunately. Outside resources are a good tool to get the knowledge we need but some of these places are not known, especially by new players. We need more support.
Edited by LordSemaj on February 16, 2018 4:01PM0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Also, no the discussion isn’t what you decide it pertains to.
Right back at you. This is what the discussion pertains to, nothing more.WhiteScythe wrote: »And not so damn elitist. There are plenty of new and returning players who are trying to get into the game so the bullying and put downs aren't helping the game's population. We need these people to hang around for the game's future. I'm getting sick of the constant crappy behaviour.
Rant over.
@LordSemaj
Exactly and that’s exactly what I’m commenting on. Elitism and within your comment, you’re telling us that the way you “measure” people is the method “you’re using” and why it’s “right”
To clarify, the OP that you quoted.....is using the term “elitism”. Some would say it means this:
Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite — a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience — are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.
What you’re doing is just that and that’s the discussion. I’m not making generalization, it’s actually what you wrote
-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
LordSemaj✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Also, no the discussion isn’t what you decide it pertains to.
Right back at you. This is what the discussion pertains to, nothing more.WhiteScythe wrote: »And not so damn elitist. There are plenty of new and returning players who are trying to get into the game so the bullying and put downs aren't helping the game's population. We need these people to hang around for the game's future. I'm getting sick of the constant crappy behaviour.
Rant over.
@LordSemaj
Exactly and that’s exactly what I’m commenting on. Elitism and within your comment, you’re telling us that the way you “measure” people is the method “you’re using” and why it’s “right”
To clarify, the OP that you quoted.....is using the term “elitism”. Some would say it means this:
Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite — a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience — are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.
What you’re doing is just that and that’s the discussion. I’m not making generalization, it’s actually what you wrote
No, what you're doing is precisely what my original post was brought in to denounce. People assuming elitism everywhere and attributing it incorrectly for their own selfish purposes. My post only describes how new players should not come in with an over-inflated sense of entitlement and expect instant gratification access to the best gear and hardest content on the backs of those who have been here longer and struggled to reach where they were. You're the one who turned it into a judgement contest, which I even pointed out was PRECISELY THE PROBLEM. People do precisely what you're doing, they get triggered by innocuous concepts such as someone expecting you to have gold weapons before doing a vet trial because that actually helps the REST OF THE TEAM. Then they cry out "elitism" when they get kicked because the team didn't want to help someone who REFUSES TO HELP THE TEAM.
Your concept of elitism and your application of it are crossed and messed up. In the world you envision, brand new level 50 CP 160s with blue gear would be getting invited to Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj so that we can all farm their Moondancer for them.2 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Also, no the discussion isn’t what you decide it pertains to.
Right back at you. This is what the discussion pertains to, nothing more.WhiteScythe wrote: »And not so damn elitist. There are plenty of new and returning players who are trying to get into the game so the bullying and put downs aren't helping the game's population. We need these people to hang around for the game's future. I'm getting sick of the constant crappy behaviour.
Rant over.
@LordSemaj
Exactly and that’s exactly what I’m commenting on. Elitism and within your comment, you’re telling us that the way you “measure” people is the method “you’re using” and why it’s “right”
To clarify, the OP that you quoted.....is using the term “elitism”. Some would say it means this:
Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite — a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience — are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.
What you’re doing is just that and that’s the discussion. I’m not making generalization, it’s actually what you wrote
No, what you're doing is precisely what my original post was brought in to denounce. People assuming elitism everywhere and attributing it incorrectly for their own selfish purposes. My post only describes how new players should not come in with an over-inflated sense of entitlement and expect instant gratification access to the best gear and hardest content on the backs of those who have been here longer and struggled to reach where they were. You're the one who turned it into a judgement contest, which I even pointed out was PRECISELY THE PROBLEM. People do precisely what you're doing, they get triggered by innocuous concepts such as someone expecting you to have gold weapons before doing a vet trial because that actually helps the REST OF THE TEAM. Then they cry out "elitism" when they get kicked because the team didn't want to help someone who REFUSES TO HELP THE TEAM.
Your concept of elitism and your application of it are crossed and messed up. In the world you envision, brand new level 50 CP 160s with blue gear would be getting invited to Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj so that we can all farm their Moondancer for them.
So instead of consider that your actions have an impact, your interpretation is that it’s not you it’s others
It’s not my concept, it’s the accepted definition of the term.....
Edited by NewBlacksmurf on February 16, 2018 4:15PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
LordSemaj✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Also, no the discussion isn’t what you decide it pertains to.
Right back at you. This is what the discussion pertains to, nothing more.WhiteScythe wrote: »And not so damn elitist. There are plenty of new and returning players who are trying to get into the game so the bullying and put downs aren't helping the game's population. We need these people to hang around for the game's future. I'm getting sick of the constant crappy behaviour.
Rant over.
@LordSemaj
Exactly and that’s exactly what I’m commenting on. Elitism and within your comment, you’re telling us that the way you “measure” people is the method “you’re using” and why it’s “right”
To clarify, the OP that you quoted.....is using the term “elitism”. Some would say it means this:
Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite — a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience — are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.
What you’re doing is just that and that’s the discussion. I’m not making generalization, it’s actually what you wrote
No, what you're doing is precisely what my original post was brought in to denounce. People assuming elitism everywhere and attributing it incorrectly for their own selfish purposes. My post only describes how new players should not come in with an over-inflated sense of entitlement and expect instant gratification access to the best gear and hardest content on the backs of those who have been here longer and struggled to reach where they were. You're the one who turned it into a judgement contest, which I even pointed out was PRECISELY THE PROBLEM. People do precisely what you're doing, they get triggered by innocuous concepts such as someone expecting you to have gold weapons before doing a vet trial because that actually helps the REST OF THE TEAM. Then they cry out "elitism" when they get kicked because the team didn't want to help someone who REFUSES TO HELP THE TEAM.
Your concept of elitism and your application of it are crossed and messed up. In the world you envision, brand new level 50 CP 160s with blue gear would be getting invited to Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj so that we can all farm their Moondancer for them.
So instead of consider that your actions have an impact, your interpretation is that it’s not you it’s others
Impact? Did anyone stop to consider the impact of their actions that they are selfishly inflicting upon others? The unreasonable demands and expectations that the entitlement you are perpetuating creates? My post only ever used CP as a determination of who is new and who is not, and you turned it into an elitism and measuring contest. I even stated the people have to prove themselves if they want to fall as an exception. We have no problem with low CPs who can prove they've played a while, have done hard content, and have sufficient gear.
But as far as points go, why don't you try to stay on topic? Because I sure am.
^ Same thing I was saying. This is GOING TO HAPPEN and it has nothing to do with elitism. It has to do with the dead weight jerk who doesn't even attempt to help the team but then expects some overpowered character to carry him through the dungeon.WhiteScythe wrote: »Someone was forced to leave the dungeon because they didn't have food.
Clarify your future points because you're starting to come across as one of these entitled newbies yourself.3 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
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Awesome example of how not to stereotype or bias.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Asking this community or this forum to be more noob friendly is a losing battle.
Well done.
Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS3 -
Sabbathius✭✭✭✭In general, I'm all in favour of being newbie friendly and considerate. But this is a two-way street.
The DLC just came out, and it's a perfect example. I've been farming these instances as a tank (yay instant queues!) pretty much non-stop this week. In vet, obviously. And practically every group goes like this:
Me: "Hey guys. You know the mechanics?"
The 3 Musketeers: "Nope."
Me: "But you at least did it on normal?"
The 3 Musketeers: "Nope."
Me: *sighs internally and starts copy-pasting the play-by-play*
I mean...you can see how this can be frustrating, right? People just show up to vet without a clue. Vet is hard enough when you know what to expect. But when your literal first time in the dungeon is in vet, it's downright unforgiving. And you're potentially screwing over 3 other players who DID practice in normal, and who DO know them mechanics.
Be considerate, and only queue for vet if you're an actual veteran to the dungeon (doing normals), not a total noob without a clue as to what has to be done, or what the mechanics look like.
Similarly, and this is especially egregious in case of DPS in my experience, don't just assume because you're "DPS" that you're actually capable of delivering DPS. So many times I'm doing a vet dungeon, especially DLC dungeon, and the DPS is just atrocious. I mean the guy literally stands back and heavy attacks with a bow. When people like that show up into VETS, I find it difficult to believe nobody said anything when they were practicing this stuff on Normal. Because with that kind of borderline nonexistent DPS, even a Normal run of something like Direfrost Keep final boss would have been an absolute nightmare.
And this is to say nothing about CP720 people who show up in vet, but still don't seem to know how to block or interrupt. I literally had to explain to a guy how break-free works and what it does. Yes, in Direfrost vet, final boss. How does that even happen?!
I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you expect professionalism and consideration, treat others the same way. Don't just show up to a vet (and demand HM) without knowing the mechanics, when you have no clue and are doing 6k DPS, because you "Need that helm". Some vets, even 1 competent player might be able to carry you. But some vets, and especially HM, this is just not the case. And I seriously start weeping internally when I see another bowtard "Tee hee I'm a PvPer!" who wants "That Zaan helmet". Because you just know it's going to be a fun 2 hr slog through a 30 min dungeon. Vets are vets. If you're not a vet, stick to normal.
Having said all that, there's nothing wrong with helping people who are genuinely trying. A few nights back I ran Scalecaller with a fresh CP160. But the guy was really, really trying. Like every single wipe he was better, he never made the same mistake twice. And we did it. Same night, an hour later, I watched a group full of CP720s wipe on the first boss (stinky ogres) and ragequit after 10 mins. Some players are willing to improve. Others just expect to be carried.
Oh, and the elitist in me *REALLY* wants a medium difficulty of vMA made accessible to all players. Basically vet, but with one mechanic per boss stripped away. Say on spider daedra stage 6, remove the little daedra that spawns, but keep the rest as regular vet. And make this version of vMA mandatory before people can queue for vet dungeons. Would make it soooooooooooooooo much better.
Hmm. Maybe I am elitist. Or at least ableist. Possibly fatphobic as well. Well, crap... 6 -
duendology✭✭✭✭✭
A few things here;
I get what you're saying about learning or meeting the bare minimum, and I can totally see getting frustrated by repeated failure (I've even much to my embarrassment been guilty of that a couple of times--I utterly hate Mazzatun as a result) but some things you may not have considered;
1) There are a lot of dungeons, while those who have been playing for a year or more have probably run them till they could do them in their sleep, when you're just starting to learn them even with resources like Static's guides its a lot to take in at once. And one does have to take it in at once, because the DF throws one at you randomly, so all have to be watched and doing it in one sitting is beyond most people (it certainly was for me, I still watch some of them to drill the info into my head). ((and yes, I know you can que for specific ones, but unless they're the pledge of the day, you're going to be waiting a long time for a specific one to pop)).
2) Seeing the vids, you get a passing familiarity of the dungeons. Unfortunately running a pug in the DF on normal is usually a racing fest for a new player, where the high CP chars are burning through things so fast that new players don't have the opportunity to observe/learn much as they get (unintentionally) carried through everything so quickly. This IMO is the biggest barrier to new players going into Vet dungeons, they have very little learning that carries over.
3) Most vets don't realize just how much they know, and how much there is to know. What seems a obvious mechanic to them because they've seen it 100s of times is invisible to a newbie, and often they don't even know how to explain it. More than a few/lots of times when I've asked what the tell looks like, I'm told "you'll know when you see it". Really? I just said i don't know what the tell looks like
Guess people don't know how to translate what the eye sees into words as vids edge out the ability to read/write.
I empathize with both sides of this issue, for in some ways I'm still very much a newbie and in other ways I've done enough vet content that I dislike dealing with lazy people as well. But one thing I've noticed is the community has a different tone during the evening hours than daytime (as measured PST) with the daytime play having been IME more pleasant.
So much THIS!!!!
Now, this is a newbie's perspective on the matter. The newbie who takes the matter of "food" seriously, who's polite and asks for directions and tips and is honest about the (lack of) knowledge...and who always says "hello" and "thanks"....
I can perfectly relate to this quoted post. I am an almost complete newbie when it comes to group dungeons (CP440+ but so what? Means nothing). I avoid them just because that, a new-to-dungeon player has no time to even look around let alone do the quest during a random because, most often than not, he/she grouped with players who're doing it like for x'th time or something and get annoyed that they can't finish the 14th daily quest in a row in a 10 minutes or less... And it stresses me at the very start because I know it's going to be a race run, you know. Those few dungeons I did, I did with the guild and they knew I was a newbie (Friendly Dungeon Runners) and I can't say a bad word about them. Wonderful people. But I hardly remember what happened in those dungeons heh. And still, I somewhat hesitate to ask if someone's doing a dungeon because I don't want to be a burden, I guess? How crazy is that?
At the same time, I know I won't get better without practice and watching videos won't make me better. It's a vicious circle.
Having said that I DID solo Spindleclutch I...without knowing mechanics! To vet players it's nothing, to me it's some kind of achievement. I died a few times (and yes, because of "the stupid" as some vets would say), but I did it. And the funny thing is.. why I soloed it? I guess I prefer to spend "stupid" two hours on my own, plus have time to loot, ..rather than feel the stress of racing through everything like crazy and not even fully realising what's happening around me.
I can perfectly solo public dungeons, of course, and when I can I help low level players whenever I encounter them because I still know what it feels like when you struggle.
Now I am thinking about creating a guild "newbie" friendly, you know. Specifically for players who haven't done group dungeons and want to learn...even if it meant spending 2 hours in a "stupid" normal one. But hey, we'd be there, fully realising we may not finish it but at least we'd have time to learn the dungeon inside out. Unless there's a guild like that on PC/NA already? Heh
PvP is an entirely different story. I solo pvp too for the same reason I, somewhat, solo dungeons. I don't want to listen to [snip] or alike in the chatzone because I made a mistake. Even though I can see it's much easier when you're in a group. Interestingly enough, I am squishy as [snip] (not even wearing the pvp build) BUT I did some killing, and support, and resurrecting. And most of the players I encountered were nice to me and not leaving me behind when I died (actually, I have never been left behind!!!!). It's "kill or get killed" environment but well, it's pvp. It is fun.
Some posters mentioned newbies who feel entitled and expect to have everything given to them. Needless to say... who are impatient and rude. Now, this is so surreal to me. I can only say that not all newbies are like this. In fact, I suspect those might be, probably, but I speculate, the players who just came to ESO from other MMOs and think they can do everything on their own without learning? Interesting.
[Edited to remove profanity]Edited by ZOS_KatP on February 21, 2018 8:06PMPC/NA
- Redguard StamBlade dps ["bowtard" crafty girl who likes spinning with daggers too.]
- Breton SorcMag dps [She's got an identity crisis, but I believe in her.]
- Dunmer Templar dps/healer [she's a healer, then again she likes inferno staff too...]
And..
- High Elf SorcMag dps [It's quite possible his daddy was a Nord.]
I am an old-fashioned Goth3 -
LordSemaj✭✭✭✭✭
You are not alone. We feel your pain.Sabbathius wrote: »Me: "Hey guys. You know the mechanics?"
The 3 Musketeers: "Nope."
Me: "But you at least did it on normal?"
The 3 Musketeers: "Nope."
Me: *sighs internally and starts copy-pasting the play-by-play*
And then people make nasty posts about it on the forums when you kick them for knowing absolutely nothing about what to expect, as though we have five hours to run it on tutorial mode.Sabbathius wrote: »I mean...you can see how this can be frustrating, right? People just show up to vet without a clue. Vet is hard enough when you know what to expect. But when your literal first time in the dungeon is in vet, it's downright unforgiving. And you're potentially screwing over 3 other players who DID practice in normal, and who DO know them mechanics.
Everything you said is true and the usual struggles we face in dealing with new players. Some bite the bullet and burden themselves with task of playing teacher while others kick or leave because it's unreasonable to show up to a job that requires a college diploma if you dropped out of high school.
3 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Also, no the discussion isn’t what you decide it pertains to.
Right back at you. This is what the discussion pertains to, nothing more.WhiteScythe wrote: »And not so damn elitist. There are plenty of new and returning players who are trying to get into the game so the bullying and put downs aren't helping the game's population. We need these people to hang around for the game's future. I'm getting sick of the constant crappy behaviour.
Rant over.
@LordSemaj
Exactly and that’s exactly what I’m commenting on. Elitism and within your comment, you’re telling us that the way you “measure” people is the method “you’re using” and why it’s “right”
To clarify, the OP that you quoted.....is using the term “elitism”. Some would say it means this:
Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite — a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience — are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others.
What you’re doing is just that and that’s the discussion. I’m not making generalization, it’s actually what you wrote
No, what you're doing is precisely what my original post was brought in to denounce. People assuming elitism everywhere and attributing it incorrectly for their own selfish purposes. My post only describes how new players should not come in with an over-inflated sense of entitlement and expect instant gratification access to the best gear and hardest content on the backs of those who have been here longer and struggled to reach where they were. You're the one who turned it into a judgement contest, which I even pointed out was PRECISELY THE PROBLEM. People do precisely what you're doing, they get triggered by innocuous concepts such as someone expecting you to have gold weapons before doing a vet trial because that actually helps the REST OF THE TEAM. Then they cry out "elitism" when they get kicked because the team didn't want to help someone who REFUSES TO HELP THE TEAM.
Your concept of elitism and your application of it are crossed and messed up. In the world you envision, brand new level 50 CP 160s with blue gear would be getting invited to Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj so that we can all farm their Moondancer for them.
So instead of consider that your actions have an impact, your interpretation is that it’s not you it’s others
Impact? Did anyone stop to consider the impact of their actions that they are selfishly inflicting upon others? The unreasonable demands and expectations that the entitlement you are perpetuating creates? My post only ever used CP as a determination of who is new and who is not, and you turned it into an elitism and measuring contest. I even stated the people have to prove themselves if they want to fall as an exception. We have no problem with low CPs who can prove they've played a while, have done hard content, and have sufficient gear.
But as far as points go, why don't you try to stay on topic? Because I sure am.
^ Same thing I was saying. This is GOING TO HAPPEN and it has nothing to do with elitism. It has to do with the dead weight jerk who doesn't even attempt to help the team but then expects some overpowered character to carry him through the dungeon.WhiteScythe wrote: »Someone was forced to leave the dungeon because they didn't have food.
Clarify your future points because you're starting to come across as one of these entitled newbies yourself.
Just to make sure, I’m not mad at you and do not intend for any of my comments to upset you.
I’m also careful that I’m not applying any name calling to you.
I want to be clear that I’m referring only to your comments and the actions implied in your comments.
Impact:
-You’re asking if anyone stopped to think about the impact others are selfishly applying on others?
-You also ask if the unreasonable demands and expectations that the entitlement you are perpetuating creates?
-Later..you write that you only used CP to determine who is new....and that they have to prove themselves to be an exception
————————————————
-No one is creating a negative impact by hoping and expecting others to treat them respectfully. As a result of using your method to label them, it applies an incorrect position that you write, is a need for them to prove themselves to you to not keep the initial label from your actions.
That is a form of elitism by way of a method to seek to measure and apply a label. The labels you’re applying....new...
-I’m curious why you write that there are unreasonable demands and expectations. Again....people should be able to expect to be treated fairly and not be given a label as the label being applied in your writing is a result of a self devised method. The key is the method is derived by yourself, which could be interpreted as selfish methodology.
It’s not an entitlement for others to seek to be treated well, however it is an entitlement to choose your own means of measurement, label someone and then subject them to your own means of proving themselves.
What’s occurring here is you’re placing them into a pass/fail scenario up front.
That is a form of elitism...
Kicking someone cause they don’t want to play the way you want them to play.....even if it’s food....yeah that’s a form of elitism.
I mean hey, it’s not them putting their best forward but not sure at that point it can be determined they are the problem.
There are ways to address it tho....just kicking them cause they won’t do the way others have decided is best....naah
So to be clear, I’m not saying YOU are an elitism, but your actions are a form of elitism and that’s what those who differ in your opinion would also consider as a form of elitism.
In this case it doesn’t work the other way....
Meaning, those being under forms of elitism aren’t causing the issue and aren’t being an elitist. Depending on the encounter, maybe they are being overly optimistic or even unrealistic but they aren’t causing elitism.
Edited by NewBlacksmurf on February 16, 2018 4:49PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
LordSemaj✭✭✭✭✭
You would instantly be welcome by any group. The usual "elitist" guild motto is to leave your ego at the door and admit that you suck, know nothing, and are ready to learn. The ones that get rejected are the ones that think they're a master at the game having watched some dungeon videos or claim their 14k dps is plenty high enough. If everyone was like them, we'd never clear any content, so someone has to burden their shortcomings. That's unreasonable to ask of any guild member.duendology wrote: »Now, this is a newbie's perspective on the matter. The newbie who takes the matter of "food" seriously, who's polite and asks for directions and tips and is honest about the (lack of) knowledge...and who always says "hello" and "thanks"....
Never feel like that as long you know you're well equipped to handle the content. You might not do as much as others but you're doing enough.duendology wrote: »And still, I somewhat hesitate to ask if someone's doing a dungeon because I don't want to be a burden, I guess? How crazy is that?
Better than the ones who don't do even that or listen to the mechanic instructions then spend the entire fight dead (sometimes intentionally) while the rest of the team "goes on without them".duendology wrote: »At the same time, I know I won't get better without practice and watching videos won't make me better. It's a vicious circle.
Probably. Whatever they are, they come with unreasonable demands and use insults like elitist when you choose not to help them.duendology wrote: »I suspect those might be the players who just came to ESO from other MMOs and think they can do everything on their own without learning?2 -
LordSemaj✭✭✭✭✭
This is as obnoxious as claiming that level 10 is a label. They aren't coming in hoping and expecting others to treat them respectfully when the first thing they do is disrespect others and expect those people to put up with it.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »-No one is creating a negative impact by hoping and expecting others to treat them respectfully. As a result of using your method to label them, it applies an incorrect position that you write, is a need for them to prove themselves to you to not keep the initial label from your actions.
That is a form of elitism by way of a method to seek to measure and apply a label. The labels you’re applying....new...
What's occurring here is you're substituting my arguments for your own to create a false dichotomy. Fair treatment is not the unreasonable demand claimed. You're pushing your own agenda again and refusing to match with my words. You're also assuming a lot about how I interact with these people. You're also pushing this concept of elitism without recognizing it's actual meaning or failing to see how we do not think of ourselves as belonging to some superior group. Your argument would paint ALL JOB REQUIREMENTS as elitism when they are merely prerequisites that ensure the person is up to the task.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »-I’m curious why you write that there are unreasonable demands and expectations. Again....people should be able to expect to be treated fairly and not be given a label as the label being applied in your writing is a result of a self devised method. The key is the method is derived by yourself, which could be interpreted as selfish methodology.
It’s not an entitlement for others to seek to be treated well, however it is an entitlement to choose your own means of measurement, label someone and then subject them to your own means of proving themselves.
What’s occurring here is you’re placing them into a pass/fail scenario up front.
That is a form of elitism...
No, it's not elitism, it's ignorance or willful negligence. It's demonstrating poor preparation. Coming to a construction site without a hammer is grounds to be sent home. Going to an exam without number two pencils is coming unprepared to take the test. Showing up to a dungeon without food is something that better be rectified or you're unprepared to run the content. Coming into veteran content with zero knowledge of the mechanics is being unprepared to run the content. No one else should suffer because you chose not to come prepared, and that is decided by democratic vote.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Kicking someone cause they don’t want to play the way you want them to play.....even if it’s food....yeah that’s a form of elitism.
Again, you're assuming a lot about how I interact with and address these issues, assuming for starters that I immediately jump to kick votes as my first option as though it wasn't attempted to be addressed in other manners. I am not here to give you the play by play of every interaction I've ever had, I'm here to give the summary and conclusion. You come with unreasonable demands and expectations even now.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I mean hey, it’s not them putting their best forward but not sure at that point it can be determined they are the problem.
There are ways to address it tho....just kicking them cause they won’t do the way others have decided is best....naah
I've pointed out several times why that is incorrect and you're simply branding your own terminology of elitism and lumping me into that category, judging my actions as it, and doing all the things previously mentioned that you abhor. Because lest we forget, coming unprepared without food and getting kicked for it is not judging the player, it's judging the actions taken by that player and executing the consequences.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »So to be clear, I’m not saying YOU are an elitism, but your actions are a form of elitism and that’s what those who differ in your opinion would also consider as a form of elitism.
Read what was written. The people are indeed causing their own issues. No one told them to do these things and they did it anyway. Other players simply decided, through democracy, that it was unacceptable. Their actions were judged and found wanting and the player was removed because of them. Ostracizing doesn't happen accidentally, you bring it on yourself.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »In this case it doesn’t work the other way....
Meaning, those being under forms of elitism aren’t causing the issue and aren’t being an elitist. Depending on the encounter, maybe they are being overly optimistic or even unrealistic but they aren’t causing elitism.2 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
It is by me and others I team with, because it's the best available measure, and I'd appreciate you not saying it isn't. Because that's false information and perpetuating this myth is what creates the hostility. New players don't have any knowledge of this hostility innately, they learn it from people spreading this garbage.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Meaning CP is not being interpreted as account age
1. Because that’s false information
2. Because CP level doesn’t measure account age
Maybe by others, but I see it routinely attributed to me erroneously. You're arguing against generalization and lumping people into categories based on arbitrary information yet have no qualms doing precisely that yourself.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Meaning that actually CP is being used as a means to determine who does and does not qualify
1. And that in itself is a form of elitism
2. Everyone actually doesn’t know and doesn’t believe CP means good, bad, experienced, noob
CP means the account has gained X amount of experience points after the conversion was made. It's just about the closest measure to /played time as one can get that isn't character specific. I know for sure that the XP was gained and that is precisely how it works. As said before, exceptions exist to every system and I'm sure some people farmed their way to max. Systems have flaws but they're only guidelines and not the hard and fast. As said before, it's up to others to prove themselves. You don't apply for a job as a newbie and expect to be taken seriously. Not unless you come with a padded resume of accolades and approvals, and even then you're the new fish. Yet as mentioned, new players, due to THREADS LIKE THIS, have been coming in with saintly expectations that are beyond unrealistic and demanding.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Also, it’s not correct to assign those assumptions generally speaking because
1. You don’t know for sure
2. That’s not what CP means or how it works
The discussion can stay in the discussion while my post can stay as my post and be addressed as an individual the same way you want others to be. The discussion is not pertaining to what you decide the discussion is pertaining to. The original post and topic title are self-explanatory and addressed accordingly. You're only pushing your own agenda as the "point of the discussion" and attempting to divide the player base into one of two categories, the with-us or against-us.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »That’s the actual point of the discussion.
That is exactly why this posts exists.
People are creating their own “ways” to include, exclude and measure people. The tool you seek to use isn’t a measuring tool first of all. It’s only a measure of a certain type of in game exp during certain ever changing ratios and rates given in an undefined method.
It has absolutely nothing to do with a persons experience and ability to hold a role or perform.
Levels 1-49 are not the same progress measure as CP 1-3600
Also, no the discussion isn’t what you decide it pertains to.
@NewBlacksmurf A bit off topic, but I’ve noticed you beginning to incorporate “bruh” in your posts more frequently. I’ve also noticed that you’re “keeping it G” on these forums nowadays too. Both of these things please me, and I just wanted to tell you that real recognizes real. And that I peep what’s going on. Keep it 100, my guy. Facts.2 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
This is as obnoxious as claiming that level 10 is a label. They aren't coming in hoping and expecting others to treat them respectfully when the first thing they do is disrespect others and expect those people to put up with it.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »-No one is creating a negative impact by hoping and expecting others to treat them respectfully. As a result of using your method to label them, it applies an incorrect position that you write, is a need for them to prove themselves to you to not keep the initial label from your actions.
That is a form of elitism by way of a method to seek to measure and apply a label. The labels you’re applying....new...
What's occurring here is you're substituting my arguments for your own to create a false dichotomy. Fair treatment is not the unreasonable demand claimed. You're pushing your own agenda again and refusing to match with my words. You're also assuming a lot about how I interact with these people. You're also pushing this concept of elitism without recognizing it's actual meaning or failing to see how we do not think of ourselves as belonging to some superior group. Your argument would paint ALL JOB REQUIREMENTS as elitism when they are merely prerequisites that ensure the person is up to the task.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »-I’m curious why you write that there are unreasonable demands and expectations. Again....people should be able to expect to be treated fairly and not be given a label as the label being applied in your writing is a result of a self devised method. The key is the method is derived by yourself, which could be interpreted as selfish methodology.
It’s not an entitlement for others to seek to be treated well, however it is an entitlement to choose your own means of measurement, label someone and then subject them to your own means of proving themselves.
What’s occurring here is you’re placing them into a pass/fail scenario up front.
That is a form of elitism...
No, it's not elitism, it's ignorance or willful negligence. It's demonstrating poor preparation. Coming to a construction site without a hammer is grounds to be sent home. Going to an exam without number two pencils is coming unprepared to take the test. Showing up to a dungeon without food is something that better be rectified or you're unprepared to run the content. Coming into veteran content with zero knowledge of the mechanics is being unprepared to run the content. No one else should suffer because you chose not to come prepared, and that is decided by democratic vote.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Kicking someone cause they don’t want to play the way you want them to play.....even if it’s food....yeah that’s a form of elitism.
Again, you're assuming a lot about how I interact with and address these issues, assuming for starters that I immediately jump to kick votes as my first option as though it wasn't attempted to be addressed in other manners. I am not here to give you the play by play of every interaction I've ever had, I'm here to give the summary and conclusion. You come with unreasonable demands and expectations even now.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I mean hey, it’s not them putting their best forward but not sure at that point it can be determined they are the problem.
There are ways to address it tho....just kicking them cause they won’t do the way others have decided is best....naah
I've pointed out several times why that is incorrect and you're simply branding your own terminology of elitism and lumping me into that category, judging my actions as it, and doing all the things previously mentioned that you abhor. Because lest we forget, coming unprepared without food and getting kicked for it is not judging the player, it's judging the actions taken by that player and executing the consequences.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »So to be clear, I’m not saying YOU are an elitism, but your actions are a form of elitism and that’s what those who differ in your opinion would also consider as a form of elitism.
Read what was written. The people are indeed causing their own issues. No one told them to do these things and they did it anyway. Other players simply decided, through democracy, that it was unacceptable. Their actions were judged and found wanting and the player was removed because of them. Ostracizing doesn't happen accidentally, you bring it on yourself.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »In this case it doesn’t work the other way....
Meaning, those being under forms of elitism aren’t causing the issue and aren’t being an elitist. Depending on the encounter, maybe they are being overly optimistic or even unrealistic but they aren’t causing elitism.
Honest question....cause I’m not assuming anything. It’s your words and quoted comments.
Regarding the definition, it’s not my definition. I literally copied and pasted it from the definitions online that are widely accepted. Accepted as in these are published in books that college students and educators use today.
-If the method of measurement is determined by you and as a result who needs to prove themselves is also determined by you, where did the “people” cause their own issues?
This isn’t something the game is doing, it’s of your own doing, so how is it that they are causing their own issues?
Ya got people playing...feeling like this
Edited by NewBlacksmurf on February 16, 2018 5:29PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5011 -
Sparr0w✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Edited by Sparr0w on February 16, 2018 5:33PM@Sparr0w so I get the notification
Xbox (EU) - l Sparrow x | CP 810+DD: All Mag + StamPC (EU) - Sparrxw | CP 810+
Heal: Templar | Sorc | NB | Warden | Necro
Tank: NB | DK | Warden
Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GHDD: All Mag + Stam
Heal: Templar | Sorc
Tank: DK | NB
Completions: All HM's + TTT + IR + GH + GS2 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sabbathius wrote: »In general, I'm all in favour of being newbie friendly and considerate. But this is a two-way street.
The DLC just came out, and it's a perfect example. I've been farming these instances as a tank (yay instant queues!) pretty much non-stop this week. In vet, obviously. And practically every group goes like this:
Me: "Hey guys. You know the mechanics?"
The 3 Musketeers: "Nope."
Me: "But you at least did it on normal?"
The 3 Musketeers: "Nope."
Me: *sighs internally and starts copy-pasting the play-by-play*
I mean...you can see how this can be frustrating, right? People just show up to vet without a clue. Vet is hard enough when you know what to expect. But when your literal first time in the dungeon is in vet, it's downright unforgiving. And you're potentially screwing over 3 other players who DID practice in normal, and who DO know them mechanics.
Be considerate, and only queue for vet if you're an actual veteran to the dungeon (doing normals), not a total noob without a clue as to what has to be done, or what the mechanics look like.
Similarly, and this is especially egregious in case of DPS in my experience, don't just assume because you're "DPS" that you're actually capable of delivering DPS. So many times I'm doing a vet dungeon, especially DLC dungeon, and the DPS is just atrocious. I mean the guy literally stands back and heavy attacks with a bow. When people like that show up into VETS, I find it difficult to believe nobody said anything when they were practicing this stuff on Normal. Because with that kind of borderline nonexistent DPS, even a Normal run of something like Direfrost Keep final boss would have been an absolute nightmare.
And this is to say nothing about CP720 people who show up in vet, but still don't seem to know how to block or interrupt. I literally had to explain to a guy how break-free works and what it does. Yes, in Direfrost vet, final boss. How does that even happen?!
I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you expect professionalism and consideration, treat others the same way. Don't just show up to a vet (and demand HM) without knowing the mechanics, when you have no clue and are doing 6k DPS, because you "Need that helm". Some vets, even 1 competent player might be able to carry you. But some vets, and especially HM, this is just not the case. And I seriously start weeping internally when I see another bowtard "Tee hee I'm a PvPer!" who wants "That Zaan helmet". Because you just know it's going to be a fun 2 hr slog through a 30 min dungeon. Vets are vets. If you're not a vet, stick to normal.
Having said all that, there's nothing wrong with helping people who are genuinely trying. A few nights back I ran Scalecaller with a fresh CP160. But the guy was really, really trying. Like every single wipe he was better, he never made the same mistake twice. And we did it. Same night, an hour later, I watched a group full of CP720s wipe on the first boss (stinky ogres) and ragequit after 10 mins. Some players are willing to improve. Others just expect to be carried.
Oh, and the elitist in me *REALLY* wants a medium difficulty of vMA made accessible to all players. Basically vet, but with one mechanic per boss stripped away. Say on spider daedra stage 6, remove the little daedra that spawns, but keep the rest as regular vet. And make this version of vMA mandatory before people can queue for vet dungeons. Would make it soooooooooooooooo much better.
Hmm. Maybe I am elitist. Or at least ableist. Possibly fatphobic as well. Well, crap...
A-FRICKIN-MEN. I wish it was not possible to queue for a vet dungeon without first having done the dungeon on normal on at least one character. It's bad enough when people screw up on new vet dungeons without having practiced; when they waltz into BASE game and old DLC vet dungeons not knowing the mechanics...sweet Jesus. I put in the time learning them on normals before I tried them on vet, and I expect others to do the same. I shouldn't have to explain breaking free of Drodda's snares on Direfrost. I shouldn't have to explain getting under the Mad Architect's purple shield at the end of VoM. I shouldn't have to explain how to do the Planar Inhibitor.
Most importantly, I shouldn't have to tell DPS in vet dungeons that they're expected to res the other DPS or the freaking healer when they go down, or that they need to do more than spam Snipe to deal damage.
Vet dungeons should not be selected by default in the dungeon finder. You should not be able to queue for ANY dungeon if you're under CP160 (LOL at the CP50 guy the other day who tried to trade me the purple Ebon ring I wasn't looking for...) And, finally, ZOS should implement a dungeon training instance to teach new players the basic expectations of the roles they're queuing for.
2 -
LordSemaj✭✭✭✭✭
So when my post points out how every point that you made is either wrong, misleading, or founded on falsehood, you reset and go to elitism definitions. Yes, you are assuming a lot, my words and comments I haven't argued against. It's your INTERPRETATION and CONCLUSIONS that I have challenged.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Honest question....cause I’m not assuming anything. It’s your words and quoted comments.
Regarding the definition, it’s not my definition. I literally copied and pasted it from the definitions online that are widely accepted. Accepted as in these are published in books that college students and educators use today.
-If the method of measurement is determined by you and as a result who needs to prove themselves is also determined by you, where did the “people” cause their own issues?
This isn’t something the game is doing, it’s of your own doing, so how is it that they are causing their own issues?
Ya got people playing...feeling like this
e·lit·ism
əˈlēdˌizəm/
noun
noun: elitism
the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society.
the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite.
"Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite — a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience — are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others."
You accused me of doing the same thing as this when you cited this definition from wikipedia while failing to read the entire definition yourself, specifically the bolded portion. Whether it's merriam-webster, dictionary.com, free dictionary, or this wikipedia one, they all carry the same connotation: elitism is about believing you deserve preferential treatment and superior authority.
Deciding the bar to set for joining a group or a guild is a job application posting with qualifications. No one feels they have greater authority or value, they feel they are qualified for the position. It's not about having the HIGHEST standards, it's about having the MINIMUM standards.
You keep painting qualifications as elitist. Even the dungeon finder has qualifications, go call it an elitist.
This is precisely the problem. You're coming off as though we kick low CP players, the only "measure" mentioned being CP. That was literally never stated and your own assumption. Rather than reading anything written, you come in with preconceived assumptions that everyone operates the same way because of a minority that mimic their methods.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »-If the method of measurement is determined by you and as a result who needs to prove themselves is also determined by you, where did the “people” cause their own issues?
As mentioned, every job description in the world has a set of qualification requirements. They are neither strict nor universal. Both in real life and in the game, you can find people who don't meet the requirements involved with the group they applied to. But they are exceptions who proved themselves as being sufficient to the task despite not meeting the recommended threshold. Similarly, there are people who exceed the minimums that perform poorly regardless who are eventually removed from the position.
I stated people create their own issues because those votes happen when they come unprepared, not because of their measurement. When someone chooses to ostracize you, something you did or didn't do was the reason. Not doing something can be as bad as doing something if it shows an uncaring negligence or unwillingness to perform at peak efficiency. Everyone else in the group is doing their best, why shouldn't you?
For clarity, I'm adding this example.
Advertisement From The Elitist Guy Who Will Kick You For Being Low CP
"lfm 300+ CP vet ROM"
Advertisment From The Group Posting a Job Application You Can Apply To
"lfm 300+ CP vet ROM"
Not much of a difference, but lots of assumptions that they're identical.
Meanwhile, when you message the latter group...
Veteran: Hi, I'm a 720 CP badass. I don't use food, I have no idea what the mechanics are, but I'm so overpowered that we'll smoke this dungeon no sweat. Invite me so I can carry you.
Group: REJECTED!
Or the other option....
Newbie: Hi, I'm only 200 CP. But I know the dungeon mechanics, I've done it on normal a bunch of times already, and I'm all prepared with potions and food and really know my rotation and how to not stand in the red. Can I get an invite anyway?
Group: ACCEPTED!
Remember that thing about exceptions? Qualifications always have them. A job may require a college diploma but they'll still accept someone with demonstrated ability or strong skill sets that doesn't have it.Edited by LordSemaj on February 16, 2018 6:44PM2 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WhiteScythe wrote: »In-game and possibly on the forums I don't keep too much of an eye on things around here but it's pretty bad in game. Example; a normal dungeon. Someone was forced to leave the dungeon because they didn't have food. This person was getting crapped on in the chat and when I said guys relax it's alright don't stress about it they were attacking me as well.
That person left the dungeon and messaged me saying he's never going to do a dungeon again if that's the way people are.
You're blaming the wrong group of people.
The elite and hardcore don't remotely care what you're wearing or doing or eating in a normal dungeon. Normals are easy enough that people who are genuinely good at the game can solo them and when pugging fully expect to.
The idiots you're talking about are living on mount stupid.
They know just enough about the game to make themselves feel superior, but don't actually have enough skill to be good at the game.
I've been playing this game a long time and know several players that have been playing this game a long time. Nobody I play with would ever make anybody leave a normal dungeon. If we are in a normal dungeon for whatever gear we are farming we just take people that need gear too.
In a normal dungeon (and most vet dungeons) I don't even look at the amount of health a player has, what kind of gear they have etc... If they want advice I will give it to them, but IMO anybody that kicks anybody from a normal dungeon is right smack in the middle of mount stupid, not a long term elite player.
DLC vet dungeons are another story, and I usually do them with pre-made groups.Playing since beta...1 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭It would really help for vet dungeons if there was a dlc dungeon filter or filter by undaunted chest. The number of calls in guilds and zone chat of “lfm pledges 5 keys”...
Or add an option to limit random vets to dungeons that you’ve completed at normal.
How many low CP players are there that know the more difficult dungeon mechanics well enough to safely hit that random vet button we get at level 50?0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
So when my post points out how every point that you made is either wrong, misleading, or founded on falsehood, you reset and go to elitism definitions. Yes, you are assuming a lot, my words and comments I haven't argued against. It's your INTERPRETATION and CONCLUSIONS that I have challenged.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Honest question....cause I’m not assuming anything. It’s your words and quoted comments.
Regarding the definition, it’s not my definition. I literally copied and pasted it from the definitions online that are widely accepted. Accepted as in these are published in books that college students and educators use today.
-If the method of measurement is determined by you and as a result who needs to prove themselves is also determined by you, where did the “people” cause their own issues?
This isn’t something the game is doing, it’s of your own doing, so how is it that they are causing their own issues?
Ya got people playing...feeling like this
e·lit·ism
əˈlēdˌizəm/
noun
noun: elitism
the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society.
the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite.
"Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite — a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience — are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others."
You accused me of doing the same thing as this when you cited this definition from wikipedia while failing to read the entire definition yourself, specifically the bolded portion. Whether it's merriam-webster, dictionary.com, free dictionary, or this wikipedia one, they all carry the same connotation: elitism is about believing you deserve preferential treatment and superior authority.
Deciding the bar to set for joining a group or a guild is a job application posting with qualifications. No one feels they have greater authority or value, they feel they are qualified for the position. It's not about having the HIGHEST standards, it's about having the MINIMUM standards.
You keep painting qualifications as elitist. Even the dungeon finder has qualifications, go call it an elitist.
This is precisely the problem. You're coming off as though we kick low CP players, the only "measure" mentioned being CP. That was literally never stated and your own assumption. Rather than reading anything written, you come in with preconceived assumptions that everyone operates the same way because of a minority that mimic their methods.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »-If the method of measurement is determined by you and as a result who needs to prove themselves is also determined by you, where did the “people” cause their own issues?
As mentioned, every job description in the world has a set of qualification requirements. They are neither strict nor universal. Both in real life and in the game, you can find people who don't meet the requirements involved with the group they applied to. But they are exceptions who proved themselves as being sufficient to the task despite not meeting the recommended threshold. Similarly, there are people who exceed the minimums that perform poorly regardless who are eventually removed from the position.
I stated people create their own issues because those votes happen when they come unprepared, not because of their measurement. When someone chooses to ostracize you, something you did or didn't do was the reason. Not doing something can be as bad as doing something if it shows an uncaring negligence or unwillingness to perform at peak efficiency. Everyone else in the group is doing their best, why shouldn't you?
For clarity, I'm adding this example.
Advertisement From The Elitist Guy Who Will Kick You For Being Low CP
"lfm 300+ CP vet ROM"
Advertisment From The Group Posting a Job Application You Can Apply To
"lfm 300+ CP vet ROM"
Not much of a difference, but lots of assumptions that they're identical.
Meanwhile, when you message the latter group...
Veteran: Hi, I'm a 720 CP badass. I don't use food, I have no idea what the mechanics are, but I'm so overpowered that we'll smoke this dungeon no sweat. Invite me so I can carry you.
Group: REJECTED!
Or the other option....
Newbie: Hi, I'm only 200 CP. But I know the dungeon mechanics, I've done it on normal a bunch of times already, and I'm all prepared with potions and food and really know my rotation and how to not stand in the red. Can I get an invite anyway?
Group: ACCEPTED!
Remember that thing about exceptions? Qualifications always have them. A job may require a college diploma but they'll still accept someone with demonstrated ability or strong skill sets that doesn't have it.
So in short you’re saying you actions aren’t a form of elitism, instead you’re suggesting it’s nothing more than a self derived qualification method based on your own person opinions of who does and doesn’t qualify?
........
And your non-gaming references about job qualifications.
There’s a HUGE different between standards and qualifications.
In the workplace you’d see terms such as arrogance, and uncompromising or abrasive.
The point of it all is this, and this is what makes what you’re writing differ from standards vs elitism.
The game does have standards and qualifications. They exists already, but that’s not what you’re using. You have you own personal standards and qualifications which in how you comment about their use is a form of elitism.
That is literally the act of preferential treatment. We don’t play with them we only play with them, ignoring who actually qualifies according to the game.
Make sense?
Edited by NewBlacksmurf on February 16, 2018 9:05PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
LordSemaj✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
So when my post points out how every point that you made is either wrong, misleading, or founded on falsehood, you reset and go to elitism definitions. Yes, you are assuming a lot, my words and comments I haven't argued against. It's your INTERPRETATION and CONCLUSIONS that I have challenged.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Honest question....cause I’m not assuming anything. It’s your words and quoted comments.
Regarding the definition, it’s not my definition. I literally copied and pasted it from the definitions online that are widely accepted. Accepted as in these are published in books that college students and educators use today.
-If the method of measurement is determined by you and as a result who needs to prove themselves is also determined by you, where did the “people” cause their own issues?
This isn’t something the game is doing, it’s of your own doing, so how is it that they are causing their own issues?
Ya got people playing...feeling like this
e·lit·ism
əˈlēdˌizəm/
noun
noun: elitism
the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society.
the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite.
"Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite — a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience — are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others."
You accused me of doing the same thing as this when you cited this definition from wikipedia while failing to read the entire definition yourself, specifically the bolded portion. Whether it's merriam-webster, dictionary.com, free dictionary, or this wikipedia one, they all carry the same connotation: elitism is about believing you deserve preferential treatment and superior authority.
Deciding the bar to set for joining a group or a guild is a job application posting with qualifications. No one feels they have greater authority or value, they feel they are qualified for the position. It's not about having the HIGHEST standards, it's about having the MINIMUM standards.
You keep painting qualifications as elitist. Even the dungeon finder has qualifications, go call it an elitist.
This is precisely the problem. You're coming off as though we kick low CP players, the only "measure" mentioned being CP. That was literally never stated and your own assumption. Rather than reading anything written, you come in with preconceived assumptions that everyone operates the same way because of a minority that mimic their methods.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »-If the method of measurement is determined by you and as a result who needs to prove themselves is also determined by you, where did the “people” cause their own issues?
As mentioned, every job description in the world has a set of qualification requirements. They are neither strict nor universal. Both in real life and in the game, you can find people who don't meet the requirements involved with the group they applied to. But they are exceptions who proved themselves as being sufficient to the task despite not meeting the recommended threshold. Similarly, there are people who exceed the minimums that perform poorly regardless who are eventually removed from the position.
I stated people create their own issues because those votes happen when they come unprepared, not because of their measurement. When someone chooses to ostracize you, something you did or didn't do was the reason. Not doing something can be as bad as doing something if it shows an uncaring negligence or unwillingness to perform at peak efficiency. Everyone else in the group is doing their best, why shouldn't you?
For clarity, I'm adding this example.
Advertisement From The Elitist Guy Who Will Kick You For Being Low CP
"lfm 300+ CP vet ROM"
Advertisment From The Group Posting a Job Application You Can Apply To
"lfm 300+ CP vet ROM"
Not much of a difference, but lots of assumptions that they're identical.
Meanwhile, when you message the latter group...
Veteran: Hi, I'm a 720 CP badass. I don't use food, I have no idea what the mechanics are, but I'm so overpowered that we'll smoke this dungeon no sweat. Invite me so I can carry you.
Group: REJECTED!
Or the other option....
Newbie: Hi, I'm only 200 CP. But I know the dungeon mechanics, I've done it on normal a bunch of times already, and I'm all prepared with potions and food and really know my rotation and how to not stand in the red. Can I get an invite anyway?
Group: ACCEPTED!
Remember that thing about exceptions? Qualifications always have them. A job may require a college diploma but they'll still accept someone with demonstrated ability or strong skill sets that doesn't have it.
So in short you’re saying you actions aren’t a form of elitism, instead you’re suggesting it’s nothing more than a self derived qualification method based on your own person opinions of who does and doesn’t qualify?
........
And your non-gaming references about job qualifications.
There’s a HUGE different between standards and qualifications.
In the workplace you’d see terms such as arrogance, and uncompromising or abrasive.
The point of it all is this, and this is what makes what you’re writing differ from standards vs elitism.
The game does have standards and qualifications. They exists already, but that’s not what you’re using. You have you own personal standards and qualifications which in how you comment about their use is a form of elitism.
Make sense?
Since you keep sidestepping the conversation to focus on whatever point you choose, we're apparently done. The game has qualifications. The game has food too. The game has epic gear and legendary weapons. The game and the designers already balance content under the assumption that players will use these things. Hell, the designers openly admit that they balance the game assuming you're animation cancelling as well. The game has standards, as do we, what the game does not have is enforcement of those standards.
This is not a form of elitism, see above for the true definition of elitism. I am free to set standards for the postings I send out, otherwise what's to stop a naked player from showing up and expecting the run? Where exactly do you draw the line between your absurdities and reasonable player expectations? If you show up with no gear, no food, no weapons, and still managed to get in thanks to being of the required level, you feel it elitist for others to kick you? Rationalize your argument.
When you stop hurling out that elitism term without understanding what it means you will see that every player in the game has personal standards. It's what causes the ignore list to see ample use, or the complaints about stealth ganking and its existence, or the use of addons that promote unfair play. Everyone has their own idea of what's acceptable or not and how dare you call it elitist to determine that boundary for ourselves.2 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
So when my post points out how every point that you made is either wrong, misleading, or founded on falsehood, you reset and go to elitism definitions. Yes, you are assuming a lot, my words and comments I haven't argued against. It's your INTERPRETATION and CONCLUSIONS that I have challenged.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Honest question....cause I’m not assuming anything. It’s your words and quoted comments.
Regarding the definition, it’s not my definition. I literally copied and pasted it from the definitions online that are widely accepted. Accepted as in these are published in books that college students and educators use today.
-If the method of measurement is determined by you and as a result who needs to prove themselves is also determined by you, where did the “people” cause their own issues?
This isn’t something the game is doing, it’s of your own doing, so how is it that they are causing their own issues?
Ya got people playing...feeling like this
e·lit·ism
əˈlēdˌizəm/
noun
noun: elitism
the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society.
the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite.
"Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite — a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience — are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others."
You accused me of doing the same thing as this when you cited this definition from wikipedia while failing to read the entire definition yourself, specifically the bolded portion. Whether it's merriam-webster, dictionary.com, free dictionary, or this wikipedia one, they all carry the same connotation: elitism is about believing you deserve preferential treatment and superior authority.
Deciding the bar to set for joining a group or a guild is a job application posting with qualifications. No one feels they have greater authority or value, they feel they are qualified for the position. It's not about having the HIGHEST standards, it's about having the MINIMUM standards.
You keep painting qualifications as elitist. Even the dungeon finder has qualifications, go call it an elitist.
This is precisely the problem. You're coming off as though we kick low CP players, the only "measure" mentioned being CP. That was literally never stated and your own assumption. Rather than reading anything written, you come in with preconceived assumptions that everyone operates the same way because of a minority that mimic their methods.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »-If the method of measurement is determined by you and as a result who needs to prove themselves is also determined by you, where did the “people” cause their own issues?
As mentioned, every job description in the world has a set of qualification requirements. They are neither strict nor universal. Both in real life and in the game, you can find people who don't meet the requirements involved with the group they applied to. But they are exceptions who proved themselves as being sufficient to the task despite not meeting the recommended threshold. Similarly, there are people who exceed the minimums that perform poorly regardless who are eventually removed from the position.
I stated people create their own issues because those votes happen when they come unprepared, not because of their measurement. When someone chooses to ostracize you, something you did or didn't do was the reason. Not doing something can be as bad as doing something if it shows an uncaring negligence or unwillingness to perform at peak efficiency. Everyone else in the group is doing their best, why shouldn't you?
For clarity, I'm adding this example.
Advertisement From The Elitist Guy Who Will Kick You For Being Low CP
"lfm 300+ CP vet ROM"
Advertisment From The Group Posting a Job Application You Can Apply To
"lfm 300+ CP vet ROM"
Not much of a difference, but lots of assumptions that they're identical.
Meanwhile, when you message the latter group...
Veteran: Hi, I'm a 720 CP badass. I don't use food, I have no idea what the mechanics are, but I'm so overpowered that we'll smoke this dungeon no sweat. Invite me so I can carry you.
Group: REJECTED!
Or the other option....
Newbie: Hi, I'm only 200 CP. But I know the dungeon mechanics, I've done it on normal a bunch of times already, and I'm all prepared with potions and food and really know my rotation and how to not stand in the red. Can I get an invite anyway?
Group: ACCEPTED!
Remember that thing about exceptions? Qualifications always have them. A job may require a college diploma but they'll still accept someone with demonstrated ability or strong skill sets that doesn't have it.
So in short you’re saying you actions aren’t a form of elitism, instead you’re suggesting it’s nothing more than a self derived qualification method based on your own person opinions of who does and doesn’t qualify?
........
And your non-gaming references about job qualifications.
There’s a HUGE different between standards and qualifications.
In the workplace you’d see terms such as arrogance, and uncompromising or abrasive.
The point of it all is this, and this is what makes what you’re writing differ from standards vs elitism.
The game does have standards and qualifications. They exists already, but that’s not what you’re using. You have you own personal standards and qualifications which in how you comment about their use is a form of elitism.
Make sense?
Since you keep sidestepping the conversation to focus on whatever point you choose, we're apparently done. The game has qualifications. The game has food too. The game has epic gear and legendary weapons. The game and the designers already balance content under the assumption that players will use these things. Hell, the designers openly admit that they balance the game assuming you're animation cancelling as well. The game has standards, as do we, what the game does not have is enforcement of those standards.
This is not a form of elitism, see above for the true definition of elitism. I am free to set standards for the postings I send out, otherwise what's to stop a naked player from showing up and expecting the run? Where exactly do you draw the line between your absurdities and reasonable player expectations? If you show up with no gear, no food, no weapons, and still managed to get in thanks to being of the required level, you feel it elitist for others to kick you? Rationalize your argument.
When you stop hurling out that elitism term without understanding what it means you will see that every player in the game has personal standards. It's what causes the ignore list to see ample use, or the complaints about stealth ganking and its existence, or the use of addons that promote unfair play. Everyone has their own idea of what's acceptable or not and how dare you call it elitist to determine that boundary for ourselves.
Sorry but I will intentionally ignore some comments because according to the ZOS forum rules, it can be considered baiting and responding to it gets me in trouble so that’s not me side stepping anything.
It is however, intentionally avoiding some comments to comply with the forums guidelines
Let’s discuss the definition further.
Definition of one part of the definition you highlighted. Let’s break it down
Of, relating to, or giving advantage or preference: preferential treatment. Preferential Treatment literally refers to "job or employment preference given to someone who is of the right race, ethnicity, or gender" as defined in the government's approved list of historically disadvantaged.
You are using your own qualifications based on your preferences to determine who is the right or wrong player to be in your group, right?
You’re also using that to determine who is disadvantaged, right?
That is how it reads so that would be the definition as it pertainsEdited by NewBlacksmurf on February 16, 2018 9:19PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5011 -
LordSemaj✭✭✭✭✭
You just described preferential treatment as being the right race, ethnicity, or gender and then went on to lump all qualifications as fitting the same category. So apparently having a high school diploma gives you preferential treatment? Not according to your definition, but it's definitely a qualification.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
So when my post points out how every point that you made is either wrong, misleading, or founded on falsehood, you reset and go to elitism definitions. Yes, you are assuming a lot, my words and comments I haven't argued against. It's your INTERPRETATION and CONCLUSIONS that I have challenged.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Honest question....cause I’m not assuming anything. It’s your words and quoted comments.
Regarding the definition, it’s not my definition. I literally copied and pasted it from the definitions online that are widely accepted. Accepted as in these are published in books that college students and educators use today.
-If the method of measurement is determined by you and as a result who needs to prove themselves is also determined by you, where did the “people” cause their own issues?
This isn’t something the game is doing, it’s of your own doing, so how is it that they are causing their own issues?
Ya got people playing...feeling like this
e·lit·ism
əˈlēdˌizəm/
noun
noun: elitism
the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society.
the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite.
"Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite — a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience — are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others."
You accused me of doing the same thing as this when you cited this definition from wikipedia while failing to read the entire definition yourself, specifically the bolded portion. Whether it's merriam-webster, dictionary.com, free dictionary, or this wikipedia one, they all carry the same connotation: elitism is about believing you deserve preferential treatment and superior authority.
Deciding the bar to set for joining a group or a guild is a job application posting with qualifications. No one feels they have greater authority or value, they feel they are qualified for the position. It's not about having the HIGHEST standards, it's about having the MINIMUM standards.
You keep painting qualifications as elitist. Even the dungeon finder has qualifications, go call it an elitist.
This is precisely the problem. You're coming off as though we kick low CP players, the only "measure" mentioned being CP. That was literally never stated and your own assumption. Rather than reading anything written, you come in with preconceived assumptions that everyone operates the same way because of a minority that mimic their methods.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »-If the method of measurement is determined by you and as a result who needs to prove themselves is also determined by you, where did the “people” cause their own issues?
As mentioned, every job description in the world has a set of qualification requirements. They are neither strict nor universal. Both in real life and in the game, you can find people who don't meet the requirements involved with the group they applied to. But they are exceptions who proved themselves as being sufficient to the task despite not meeting the recommended threshold. Similarly, there are people who exceed the minimums that perform poorly regardless who are eventually removed from the position.
I stated people create their own issues because those votes happen when they come unprepared, not because of their measurement. When someone chooses to ostracize you, something you did or didn't do was the reason. Not doing something can be as bad as doing something if it shows an uncaring negligence or unwillingness to perform at peak efficiency. Everyone else in the group is doing their best, why shouldn't you?
For clarity, I'm adding this example.
Advertisement From The Elitist Guy Who Will Kick You For Being Low CP
"lfm 300+ CP vet ROM"
Advertisment From The Group Posting a Job Application You Can Apply To
"lfm 300+ CP vet ROM"
Not much of a difference, but lots of assumptions that they're identical.
Meanwhile, when you message the latter group...
Veteran: Hi, I'm a 720 CP badass. I don't use food, I have no idea what the mechanics are, but I'm so overpowered that we'll smoke this dungeon no sweat. Invite me so I can carry you.
Group: REJECTED!
Or the other option....
Newbie: Hi, I'm only 200 CP. But I know the dungeon mechanics, I've done it on normal a bunch of times already, and I'm all prepared with potions and food and really know my rotation and how to not stand in the red. Can I get an invite anyway?
Group: ACCEPTED!
Remember that thing about exceptions? Qualifications always have them. A job may require a college diploma but they'll still accept someone with demonstrated ability or strong skill sets that doesn't have it.
So in short you’re saying you actions aren’t a form of elitism, instead you’re suggesting it’s nothing more than a self derived qualification method based on your own person opinions of who does and doesn’t qualify?
........
And your non-gaming references about job qualifications.
There’s a HUGE different between standards and qualifications.
In the workplace you’d see terms such as arrogance, and uncompromising or abrasive.
The point of it all is this, and this is what makes what you’re writing differ from standards vs elitism.
The game does have standards and qualifications. They exists already, but that’s not what you’re using. You have you own personal standards and qualifications which in how you comment about their use is a form of elitism.
Make sense?
Since you keep sidestepping the conversation to focus on whatever point you choose, we're apparently done. The game has qualifications. The game has food too. The game has epic gear and legendary weapons. The game and the designers already balance content under the assumption that players will use these things. Hell, the designers openly admit that they balance the game assuming you're animation cancelling as well. The game has standards, as do we, what the game does not have is enforcement of those standards.
This is not a form of elitism, see above for the true definition of elitism. I am free to set standards for the postings I send out, otherwise what's to stop a naked player from showing up and expecting the run? Where exactly do you draw the line between your absurdities and reasonable player expectations? If you show up with no gear, no food, no weapons, and still managed to get in thanks to being of the required level, you feel it elitist for others to kick you? Rationalize your argument.
When you stop hurling out that elitism term without understanding what it means you will see that every player in the game has personal standards. It's what causes the ignore list to see ample use, or the complaints about stealth ganking and its existence, or the use of addons that promote unfair play. Everyone has their own idea of what's acceptable or not and how dare you call it elitist to determine that boundary for ourselves.
Sorry but I will intentionally ignore some comments because according to the ZOS forum rules, it can be considered baiting and responding to it gets me in trouble so that’s not me side stepping anything.
It is however, intentionally avoiding some comments to comply with the forums guidelines
Let’s discuss the definition further.
Definition of one part of the definition you highlighted. Let’s break it down
Of, relating to, or giving advantage or preference: preferential treatment. Preferential Treatment literally refers to "job or employment preference given to someone who is of the right race, ethnicity, or gender" as defined in the government's approved list of historically disadvantaged.
You are using your own qualifications based on your preferences to determine who is the right or wrong player to be in your group, right?
You’re also using that to determine who is disadvantaged, right?
That is how it reads so that would be the definition as it pertains
I agree with one thing you wrote... this is smelling of bait and I'm through responding. You've completely thrown every position out the window to now argue over definitions while not remaining objective concerning them but instead trying to get them to fit your concept of the term.1 -
Bevik✭✭✭✭This game doesn't need to be more noob friendly. The game is good enough and don't blame the game. Blame the people. They are being so ignorant and arrogant. Noobs or experienced players, I've seen them both. I was so experienced in group dungeons on my tank I could run it alone with 3 of my clones easily. Many, many times I've had to explain the mechanics to the others, some of them couldn't understand or just ignored all the wise words so we kept dying and I said good bye to them. Some new players were so smart after all the explanation we managed to do the whole dungeon. I raised my tank in dungeons, all you need is to gain experience.
People are being lazy, they don't want to learn, if something is hard they cry and quit. Noone wants Dark Soul kind hardness but overland content, most of the group dungeons, normal trials are just so easy to do on high CP with the right gear it is just boring.
Players should understand that this is an MMO, you go and read, google, youtube, then you try, not working, back to square one and try again. Honestly veteran dungeons are what this game is about PVE wise, they are fun while normal dungeons are piece of cakes. Normal dungeons should be more hard so people will be prepared for veteran content.
But first of all people should take their time to learn the game. Been said countless time people are standing in a fire, poison whatever. There is always a massive indicator where you shouldn't stand. Huge indicators now showing when to interrupt and block. If you know these the other mechanics are just completed with experience.
Nothing ZOS can do about stupidity, sorry.Edited by Bevik on February 16, 2018 9:27PM2 -
Runefang✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Honestly don't know how some people survive in the real world...
I ask if you've forgotten food. You say no, I don't do food. So I say you need to eat food and offer you some, why not accept.
Unwillingness to learn is annoying, there's only so much you can cater to people's feelings before its too big a problem. I'm not going to turn a 25 minute dungeon into a 2 hour slog for the sake of a noobs feelings.
There are two equally valid sides to the argument:
1. New players must be willing to learn.
2. Experienced players must be willing to teach.
Almost everybody falls into both groups. I've never done vBRF HM for example so I need somebody to teach me when I go to do it.
3 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »
So when my post points out how every point that you made is either wrong, misleading, or founded on falsehood, you reset and go to elitism definitions. Yes, you are assuming a lot, my words and comments I haven't argued against. It's your INTERPRETATION and CONCLUSIONS that I have challenged.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Honest question....cause I’m not assuming anything. It’s your words and quoted comments.
Regarding the definition, it’s not my definition. I literally copied and pasted it from the definitions online that are widely accepted. Accepted as in these are published in books that college students and educators use today.
-If the method of measurement is determined by you and as a result who needs to prove themselves is also determined by you, where did the “people” cause their own issues?
This isn’t something the game is doing, it’s of your own doing, so how is it that they are causing their own issues?
Ya got people playing...feeling like this
e·lit·ism
əˈlēdˌizəm/
noun
noun: elitism
the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society.
the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite.
"Elitism is the belief or attitude that individuals who form an elite — a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality, high intellect, wealth, special skills, or experience — are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole, and therefore deserve influence or authority greater than that of others."
You accused me of doing the same thing as this when you cited this definition from wikipedia while failing to read the entire definition yourself, specifically the bolded portion. Whether it's merriam-webster, dictionary.com, free dictionary, or this wikipedia one, they all carry the same connotation: elitism is about believing you deserve preferential treatment and superior authority.
Deciding the bar to set for joining a group or a guild is a job application posting with qualifications. No one feels they have greater authority or value, they feel they are qualified for the position. It's not about having the HIGHEST standards, it's about having the MINIMUM standards.
You keep painting qualifications as elitist. Even the dungeon finder has qualifications, go call it an elitist.
This is precisely the problem. You're coming off as though we kick low CP players, the only "measure" mentioned being CP. That was literally never stated and your own assumption. Rather than reading anything written, you come in with preconceived assumptions that everyone operates the same way because of a minority that mimic their methods.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »-If the method of measurement is determined by you and as a result who needs to prove themselves is also determined by you, where did the “people” cause their own issues?
As mentioned, every job description in the world has a set of qualification requirements. They are neither strict nor universal. Both in real life and in the game, you can find people who don't meet the requirements involved with the group they applied to. But they are exceptions who proved themselves as being sufficient to the task despite not meeting the recommended threshold. Similarly, there are people who exceed the minimums that perform poorly regardless who are eventually removed from the position.
I stated people create their own issues because those votes happen when they come unprepared, not because of their measurement. When someone chooses to ostracize you, something you did or didn't do was the reason. Not doing something can be as bad as doing something if it shows an uncaring negligence or unwillingness to perform at peak efficiency. Everyone else in the group is doing their best, why shouldn't you?
For clarity, I'm adding this example.
Advertisement From The Elitist Guy Who Will Kick You For Being Low CP
"lfm 300+ CP vet ROM"
Advertisment From The Group Posting a Job Application You Can Apply To
"lfm 300+ CP vet ROM"
Not much of a difference, but lots of assumptions that they're identical.
Meanwhile, when you message the latter group...
Veteran: Hi, I'm a 720 CP badass. I don't use food, I have no idea what the mechanics are, but I'm so overpowered that we'll smoke this dungeon no sweat. Invite me so I can carry you.
Group: REJECTED!
Or the other option....
Newbie: Hi, I'm only 200 CP. But I know the dungeon mechanics, I've done it on normal a bunch of times already, and I'm all prepared with potions and food and really know my rotation and how to not stand in the red. Can I get an invite anyway?
Group: ACCEPTED!
Remember that thing about exceptions? Qualifications always have them. A job may require a college diploma but they'll still accept someone with demonstrated ability or strong skill sets that doesn't have it.
So in short you’re saying you actions aren’t a form of elitism, instead you’re suggesting it’s nothing more than a self derived qualification method based on your own person opinions of who does and doesn’t qualify?
........
And your non-gaming references about job qualifications.
There’s a HUGE different between standards and qualifications.
In the workplace you’d see terms such as arrogance, and uncompromising or abrasive.
The point of it all is this, and this is what makes what you’re writing differ from standards vs elitism.
The game does have standards and qualifications. They exists already, but that’s not what you’re using. You have you own personal standards and qualifications which in how you comment about their use is a form of elitism.
Make sense?
Since you keep sidestepping the conversation to focus on whatever point you choose, we're apparently done. The game has qualifications. The game has food too. The game has epic gear and legendary weapons. The game and the designers already balance content under the assumption that players will use these things. Hell, the designers openly admit that they balance the game assuming you're animation cancelling as well. The game has standards, as do we, what the game does not have is enforcement of those standards.
This is not a form of elitism, see above for the true definition of elitism. I am free to set standards for the postings I send out, otherwise what's to stop a naked player from showing up and expecting the run? Where exactly do you draw the line between your absurdities and reasonable player expectations? If you show up with no gear, no food, no weapons, and still managed to get in thanks to being of the required level, you feel it elitist for others to kick you? Rationalize your argument.
When you stop hurling out that elitism term without understanding what it means you will see that every player in the game has personal standards. It's what causes the ignore list to see ample use, or the complaints about stealth ganking and its existence, or the use of addons that promote unfair play. Everyone has their own idea of what's acceptable or not and how dare you call it elitist to determine that boundary for ourselves.
Sorry but I will intentionally ignore some comments because according to the ZOS forum rules, it can be considered baiting and responding to it gets me in trouble so that’s not me side stepping anything.
It is however, intentionally avoiding some comments to comply with the forums guidelines
Let’s discuss the definition further.
Definition of one part of the definition you highlighted. Let’s break it down
Of, relating to, or giving advantage or preference: preferential treatment. Preferential Treatment literally refers to "job or employment preference given to someone who is of the right race, ethnicity, or gender" as defined in the government's approved list of historically disadvantaged.
You are using your own qualifications based on your preferences to determine who is the right or wrong player to be in your group, right?
You’re also using that to determine who is disadvantaged, right?
That is how it reads so that would be the definition as it pertains
You just described preferential treatment as being the right race, ethnicity, or gender and then went on to lump all qualifications as fitting the same category. So apparently having a high school diploma gives you preferential treatment? Not according to your definition, but it's definitely a qualification.
<snip>
You've completely thrown every position out the window to now argue over definitions while not remaining objective concerning them but instead trying to get them to fit your concept of the term.
No, again it’s not me it’s yet again another copy and paste from the actual definition. I didn’t edit anything just as before.
There isn’t a game definition so that’s what exists.
But the definition of preferential treatment reads, “Of, relating to, or giving advantage or preference: preferential treatment.”
The rest is what the definition of the word refers to, not to be mistaken as the same as the actual definition. It’s different according to what the reference writes.
From what you’re sharing above and how you seperate your example of a elitist vs you....
I never stated or assumed you are just kicking people, however here is what you said...
And I quote:
WhiteScythe wrote: »
Someone was forced to leave the dungeon because they didn't have food.
^ Same thing I was saying. This is GOING TO HAPPEN and it has nothing to do with elitism. It has to do with the dead weight jerk who doesn't even attempt to help the team but then expects some overpowered character to carry him through the dungeon.
Clarify your future points because you're starting to come across as one of these entitled newbies yourself.
You actually are calling people who don’t fit into your qualifications “dead weight jerk” and then continue on to suggest that that person doesn’t even attempt to help the team but then “expects some overpowered character to carry him through the dungeon.”
Those are your written comments.
That is literally a form of elitism, and so regardless of what you’re actually doing or not doing in the game, on the forums, just above, this is an example of actions that others who don’t share the same mindset as you, they would consider the actions and words as a form of elitism.
It’s really not my definition or me trying to twist anything or avoid anything, it’s your written words.
That type of stuff is what this topic is about and an example that some of us within the discussion hope doesn’t carry over into the game.
Make sense?Edited by NewBlacksmurf on February 16, 2018 9:41PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5011 -
LordSemaj✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »-If the method of measurement is determined by you and as a result who needs to prove themselves is also determined by you, where did the “people” cause their own issues?This is precisely the problem. You're coming off as though we kick low CP players, the only "measure" mentioned being CP. That was literally never stated and your own assumption.WhiteScythe wrote: »Someone was forced to leave the dungeon because they didn't have food.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »where did the “people” cause their own issues?No, it's not elitism, it's ignorance or willful negligence. It's demonstrating poor preparation. Coming to a construction site without a hammer is grounds to be sent home. Going to an exam without number two pencils is coming unprepared to take the test. Showing up to a dungeon without food is something that better be rectified or you're unprepared to run the content. Coming into veteran content with zero knowledge of the mechanics is being unprepared to run the content. No one else should suffer because you chose not to come prepared, and that is decided by democratic vote.Again, I really don't see old players treating new players poorly. I see new players vilifying old players for not carrying them.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »That is literally a form of elitism, and so regardless of what you’re actually doing or not doing in the game, on the forums, just above, this is an example of actions that others who don’t share the same mindset as you, they would consider the actions and words as a form of elitism.When you stop hurling out that elitism term without understanding what it means you will see that every player in the game has personal standards. It's what causes the ignore list to see ample use, or the complaints about stealth ganking and its existence, or the use of addons that promote unfair play. Everyone has their own idea of what's acceptable or not and how dare you call it elitist to determine that boundary for ourselves.I've had people want to jump into vet trials without even gold weapons. Like sure it's doable, but could you maybe put even a smidgen of effort in first? "Oh but I'm just going to replace it with VO stuff." ... I'm not willing to help people who refuse to help the team.Veteran: Hi, I'm a 720 CP badass. I don't use food, I have no idea what the mechanics are, but I'm so overpowered that we'll smoke this dungeon no sweat. Invite me so I can carry you.
Group: REJECTED!
Newbie: Hi, I'm only 200 CP. But I know the dungeon mechanics, I've done it on normal a bunch of times already, and I'm all prepared with potions and food and really know my rotation and how to not stand in the red. Can I get an invite anyway?
Group: ACCEPTED!\This is not a form of elitism, see above for the true definition of elitism. I am free to set standards for the postings I send out, otherwise what's to stop a naked player from showing up and expecting the run? Where exactly do you draw the line between your absurdities and reasonable player expectations? If you show up with no gear, no food, no weapons, and still managed to get in thanks to being of the required level, you feel it elitist for others to kick you? Rationalize your argument.
In a game where it takes three votes to kick one player, true elitism is the one person feeling their reasons for remaining outweigh the reasons of the three who decided they shouldn't.
The game doesn't boot people who show up naked. The game doesn't boot people who afk in the corner during boss fights. The game doesn't boot people who run ahead to pull every mob in the dungeon to the group causing a wipe. The game doesn't boot people who are hostile in chat. The game doesn't boot people who have zero skills on their bar and queued as the healer while light attacking every few seconds. The game doesn't boot people who die and reject all resurrection attempts to stay dead. Every player in the game has expectations, preferences of how you should play, like expecting the person who queued as a healer to actually heal.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »You have you own personal standards and qualifications which in how you comment about their use is a form of elitism.
Make sense?
No, I can't say it does, since every player already does it. You're being authoritative over which criteria you rule as elitism.The game has qualifications. The game has food too. The game has epic gear and legendary weapons. The game and the designers already balance content under the assumption that players will use these things. Hell, the designers openly admit that they balance the game assuming you're animation cancelling as well. The game has standards, as do we, what the game does not have is enforcement of those standards.Edited by LordSemaj on February 16, 2018 10:24PM0 -
KerryG✭✭✭Hi, I'm new to the game and I want to respond to this thread. I'm basing my response on my recent experiences.
First, I'm new. Very, very new. I think I've had Elder Scrolls Online for maybe eight weeks? I just returned from studying abroad for two years and I bought it. I don't know if it's relevant but I have a sub. Yes, I've been to the forums and I find a lot of the guides useful. If you made one, thanks!
I have one character, a Nord nightblade. I've played long enough to have a guy tell me on Discord that "you're doing it wrong." Yeah, I play a Nord, I play a nightblade. Sorry. No, I don't think I'm going to change. Since people ask me when I ask questions: this is the second MMO I've ever played and, no, the other was not WoW.
I want to comment for two reasons. Reason 1 is because there's a lot of hating in this thread. Meanwhile, I had a great experience running a dungeon the other day. It was my first dungeon and it was Fungal Grotto, the normal version. I know it's probably easy for some experienced players but it was my first dungeon. I queued up as DPS and then waited 45+ minutes to get a dungeon. Finally, some very nice person (I wish I'd caught their name), grouped with me so I could get in.
We ran the dungeon with four people and had no problem.The entire group was nice and fun to play with. They stopped, explained things and when we were done, they gave me a lot of really good advice. We probably spent an hour in that dungeon. And I get what some people are saying: these players probably didn't want to spend an hour of their life that night telling me how to play dungeons. But because they did, my attitude about dungeons really changed. They made the experience fun and enjoyable - so much so that I ended up running another dungeon with them that night. And I ended up with a couple of new friends.
The next night wasn't so great. I logged in and one of those two asked me if I wanted to run another dungeon. It was Cave of Ash 1. We got in and the other two players (we were using the group finder), immediately ran ahead. In fact, they jumped off a path that winds around to drop to the floor below and left me behind. They moved so fast I couldn't even pick up the quest. They killed the bosses and finished and blew out of there. And I'm trying to use the group chat to tell them I've never run this dungeon before. Meanwhile, I was left to feel stupid, annoyed, and as if I shouldn't be doing this while they ran a dungeon in ten minutes.
Afterwards, my friend tried to help me by offering to run the dungeon with me so I could do the quest but by then we were having the invisible group member bug and for some reason I lagged out and had to quit the game for awhile.
I know people farm dungeons for gear and experience, but right now I'm just want to play the game. I want to do the quests and listen to the NPCs and read the books. Running a dungeon in ten minutes is not fun for me.
5 -
Marginis✭✭✭✭✭Hi, I'm new to the game and I want to respond to this thread. I'm basing my response on my recent experiences.
First, I'm new. Very, very new. I think I've had Elder Scrolls Online for maybe eight weeks? I just returned from studying abroad for two years and I bought it. I don't know if it's relevant but I have a sub. Yes, I've been to the forums and I find a lot of the guides useful. If you made one, thanks!
I have one character, a Nord nightblade. I've played long enough to have a guy tell me on Discord that "you're doing it wrong." Yeah, I play a Nord, I play a nightblade. Sorry. No, I don't think I'm going to change. Since people ask me when I ask questions: this is the second MMO I've ever played and, no, the other was not WoW.
I want to comment for two reasons. Reason 1 is because there's a lot of hating in this thread. Meanwhile, I had a great experience running a dungeon the other day. It was my first dungeon and it was Fungal Grotto, the normal version. I know it's probably easy for some experienced players but it was my first dungeon. I queued up as DPS and then waited 45+ minutes to get a dungeon. Finally, some very nice person (I wish I'd caught their name), grouped with me so I could get in.
We ran the dungeon with four people and had no problem.The entire group was nice and fun to play with. They stopped, explained things and when we were done, they gave me a lot of really good advice. We probably spent an hour in that dungeon. And I get what some people are saying: these players probably didn't want to spend an hour of their life that night telling me how to play dungeons. But because they did, my attitude about dungeons really changed. They made the experience fun and enjoyable - so much so that I ended up running another dungeon with them that night. And I ended up with a couple of new friends.
The next night wasn't so great. I logged in and one of those two asked me if I wanted to run another dungeon. It was Cave of Ash 1. We got in and the other two players (we were using the group finder), immediately ran ahead. In fact, they jumped off a path that winds around to drop to the floor below and left me behind. They moved so fast I couldn't even pick up the quest. They killed the bosses and finished and blew out of there. And I'm trying to use the group chat to tell them I've never run this dungeon before. Meanwhile, I was left to feel stupid, annoyed, and as if I shouldn't be doing this while they ran a dungeon in ten minutes.
Afterwards, my friend tried to help me by offering to run the dungeon with me so I could do the quest but by then we were having the invisible group member bug and for some reason I lagged out and had to quit the game for awhile.
I know people farm dungeons for gear and experience, but right now I'm just want to play the game. I want to do the quests and listen to the NPCs and read the books. Running a dungeon in ten minutes is not fun for me.
A lot of people seem to have forgotten that this is an RPG too, not just an MMO metagame.
Good on you for sticking in there. There are good people out there, you just don't see them enough these days. Let's get more replies like this in this thread, stop the name calling.Edited by Marginis on February 16, 2018 11:43PM@Marginis on PC, Senpai Fluffy on Xbox, Founder of Magicka. Also known as Kha'jiri, The Night Mother, Ma'iq, Jane Shepard, Damia, Kintyra, Zoor Do Kest, You, and a few others.4