moved

Yolokin_Swagonborn

No

I have changed my mind on this one. I do not support a global auction house but do want some quality of life features added to the existing system. I have seen too much economic manipulation by people that should go back to EvE instead of playing ESO. The ESO economy is simply too fragile and vulnerable to shenanigans to allow an AH.

I would like to have global Zones however. Instead of multiple traders per zone, have one kiosk where you can search all the traders, and perhaps more traders added so that the bidding war isn't as intense.

jedtb16_ESO

No

Tandor wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

ARGUMENT FOR A GLOBAL AUCTION HOUSE:

The two main arguments in opposition of a global auction house are:

1. Undercutting the competition, leading to a race to the bottom in terms of pricing

2. Cornering the market, leading to price gouging

These two arguments lack merit.

A global auction house allows supply and demand to take their natural course and lead to an equilibrium of price.

Cornering the market is tough, even with add-ons. This is because the volume of items is so high and every single person in the game has the ability to sell items, resulting in a very large and constant supply - one that can easily outweigh the demand, making it unprofitable to buy every single quantity available. Even with low-volume items and attempts to price gouge, there will come a point where people decide the higher price is not worth it and either forgo the item or farm it on their own, or they will get it off-market. Either way, the price gouging sellers do not make the sale, and no profit results, forcing them to lower the price to the point where it sells at the desired volume (in a way that maximizes total sales dollars).

And then there is undercutting the competition, leading to a race to the bottom in terms of pricing. So this means that within a month of the global auction house going live, every item will be selling for one gold? Of course not. Just as there is a price ceiling set by the buyers, there is a price floor set by the sellers - at some point, they will decide it's not worth selling an item for a lower price. If this were not the case, then every item would be available for one gold.

Natural suply and demand can never take place in MMORPGS because economy in these games lacks core aspect present in real economy. Every economic theory is based on condition that resources are LIMITED. In these games, resources are unlimited leading to natural unbalance in suply and demand so argument about natural balance isn't in place.

Technically true, however there is a certain flow rate to those items being generated and removed from the game world. The more common the item, the higher the flow rate, which roughly translates to a higher supply. The fact that it's potentially infinite simply means we'll theoretically never hit a point where the item is completely used up.

But the thing DoctorESO failed to realize, or doesn't want to, is that the price gouging and undercutting does not apply equally to every single item. In fact he's trying to use that as a strawman argument in the quote you posted. Price gouging will simply guarantee that certain items will always be at or very slightly below the price ceiling, which will be artificially inflated because of said gouging. Likewise, items that are undercut will nearly always be at the price floor, which will be artificially low because there's so much undercutting taking place. By diversifying the market, you effectively make it resistant to both gouging and undercutting, bringing overall prices more toward a central average, as it were. Yes, some of that will still take place, but it won't be nearly as prevalent of a problem. It's good for the seller because he can still make a decent profit on common items and it's good for the buyer because the less common stuff will actually be in the realm of affordability.

i don't disagree with anything you say here but i do take issue with the idea of gouging and undercutting.

gouging/undercutting presuppose that there is some kind of 'ideal' or fixed price for any given item. there isn't. for any sale (since there are no game mechanic imposed restrictions on price) the price, generally, will fall between what the seller hopes to get and what the market will bear.

That presupposes that there aren't agreements between trading guilds or pressures imposed on guild members as to the level of listing price that is "expected" if members are to continue with those guilds. I've no idea whether that actually does happen, but I've certainly seen plenty of claims that it does.

i've heard the same things.... but never seen evidence of it. i've been in a number of trading guilds, that were successful, and have never been told what price i should charge.

jedtb16_ESO

No

DoctorESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

But the thing DoctorESO failed to realize, or doesn't want to, is that the price gouging and undercutting does not apply equally to every single item. In fact he's trying to use that as a strawman argument in the quote you posted. Price gouging will simply guarantee that certain items will always be at or very slightly below the price ceiling, which will be artificially inflated because of said gouging. Likewise, items that are undercut will nearly always be at the price floor, which will be artificially low because there's so much undercutting taking place.

To give people perspective when I first created this thread, I actually summarized the arguments for both sides, not just one/

But if "items will always be at or very slightly below the price ceiling," doesn't this mean that the item has found its market value? Not sure what "price ceiling" refers to, but if everyone is buying and selling at a particular price, then that price is the market value. No?

Same thing with the "price floor."

to the part i put in bold.... well, no. you cherry picked a couple of arguments on each side and slanted the summary to fit your agenda.

this debate has been going on since beta.... there have been a lot more points made on both sides - try using the search function and going back to 2014 to see the reams of debate back then and since then.

from memory the real argument for a global auction house is that it would be more convenient.

against there are two - it would not fit the lore and a single market would be too easy to manipulate.

(and yes it would probably be valid to charge me with slanting the summary to fit my agenda)

price ceilings and floors are real world contrivances that don't really fit in a game world since they are devices to ensure that costs are covered and a reasonable return is made on investment. really doesn't apply here since you can't pay your isp with in game gold.

Sevalaricgirl

Yes

Beardimus wrote: »

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Flat no.

Trading is interesting right now, it rewards effort. Don't wreck that cos people are lazy

It has nothing to do with being lazy. I have tons and tons and tons of stuff which is why I have a lot of mules. I just do not want to be in a trading guild and I shouldn't have to be. No other game requires it to sell stuff. ESO, and I've been saying this since day 1, did it wrong.

Disagree. It's a part of the game some enjoy.

I want trials weapons I have to do them
I want AP I have to go PvP
Trade, trading guild

It's very simple. Don't wreck a part of the game as you want to shortcut it. If we all did that the game would get easy very fast

Wrong. It's not a shortcut. We go out and collect the materials and I spend hours doing it. I spend the time to craft things, hours doing that. So you think having a real auction house is a shortcut. You are very wrong. ZOS did it to get people into guilds, penalizing the solo players. We do just as much work as anyone else, we just can't sell our stuff unless we belong to a trading guild. How is having an auction house available to everyone a freaking shortcut. Again, you are very wrong.

Tandor

Yes

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

<snip> from memory the real argument for a global auction house is that it would be more convenient. <snip>

That's true so far as the problems for buyers are concerned, but for sellers the main argument is that the game's trading system should be open to all and not dependent on (a) belonging to several guilds, (b) those guilds regularly getting kiosks, and (c) add-ons that are only available to one-third of the players.

idk

No

Tandor wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

ARGUMENT FOR A GLOBAL AUCTION HOUSE:

The two main arguments in opposition of a global auction house are:

1. Undercutting the competition, leading to a race to the bottom in terms of pricing

2. Cornering the market, leading to price gouging

These two arguments lack merit.

A global auction house allows supply and demand to take their natural course and lead to an equilibrium of price.

Cornering the market is tough, even with add-ons. This is because the volume of items is so high and every single person in the game has the ability to sell items, resulting in a very large and constant supply - one that can easily outweigh the demand, making it unprofitable to buy every single quantity available. Even with low-volume items and attempts to price gouge, there will come a point where people decide the higher price is not worth it and either forgo the item or farm it on their own, or they will get it off-market. Either way, the price gouging sellers do not make the sale, and no profit results, forcing them to lower the price to the point where it sells at the desired volume (in a way that maximizes total sales dollars).

And then there is undercutting the competition, leading to a race to the bottom in terms of pricing. So this means that within a month of the global auction house going live, every item will be selling for one gold? Of course not. Just as there is a price ceiling set by the buyers, there is a price floor set by the sellers - at some point, they will decide it's not worth selling an item for a lower price. If this were not the case, then every item would be available for one gold.

Natural suply and demand can never take place in MMORPGS because economy in these games lacks core aspect present in real economy. Every economic theory is based on condition that resources are LIMITED. In these games, resources are unlimited leading to natural unbalance in suply and demand so argument about natural balance isn't in place.

Technically true, however there is a certain flow rate to those items being generated and removed from the game world. The more common the item, the higher the flow rate, which roughly translates to a higher supply. The fact that it's potentially infinite simply means we'll theoretically never hit a point where the item is completely used up.

But the thing DoctorESO failed to realize, or doesn't want to, is that the price gouging and undercutting does not apply equally to every single item. In fact he's trying to use that as a strawman argument in the quote you posted. Price gouging will simply guarantee that certain items will always be at or very slightly below the price ceiling, which will be artificially inflated because of said gouging. Likewise, items that are undercut will nearly always be at the price floor, which will be artificially low because there's so much undercutting taking place. By diversifying the market, you effectively make it resistant to both gouging and undercutting, bringing overall prices more toward a central average, as it were. Yes, some of that will still take place, but it won't be nearly as prevalent of a problem. It's good for the seller because he can still make a decent profit on common items and it's good for the buyer because the less common stuff will actually be in the realm of affordability.

i don't disagree with anything you say here but i do take issue with the idea of gouging and undercutting.

gouging/undercutting presuppose that there is some kind of 'ideal' or fixed price for any given item. there isn't. for any sale (since there are no game mechanic imposed restrictions on price) the price, generally, will fall between what the seller hopes to get and what the market will bear.

That presupposes that there aren't agreements between trading guilds or pressures imposed on guild members as to the level of listing price that is "expected" if members are to continue with those guilds. I've no idea whether that actually does happen, but I've certainly seen plenty of claims that it does.

It is of that you have no idea that any aspect of your claim has happened yet you put it forth in this type of thread.

It is humorous to consider though since competition between traders changes. I expect there is a simple aspect that if a new guild takes your spot one week that going after the spot next to yours is not wise. Getting back your old spot makes more sense.

As for a guild pressuring it's members to keep items listed at a certain price point, that is eve more entertaining. The idea is both short sighted an absurd. New items drop in price fast and the members know that. Members will go for that they think they can get for a rare item in demand. Commodity items have general prices players will pay. It is easy to see that a guild leader might think he has such control over it's members just does not happen outside of someone new looking to learn the lessons of trading guild leadership.

Soris

Yes

No.

Elsonso

No

Soris wrote: »

No.

I can sense the conflict within you...

JobooAGS

No

lordrichter wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

No.

I can sense the conflict within you...

Do it... complete your training...

Soris

Yes

JobooAGS wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

No.

I can sense the conflict within you...

Do it... complete your training...

DoctorESO

Yes

.

DoctorESO

Yes

.

jedtb16_ESO

No

Tandor wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

<snip> from memory the real argument for a global auction house is that it would be more convenient. <snip>

That's true so far as the problems for buyers are concerned, but for sellers the main argument is that the game's trading system should be open to all and not dependent on (a) belonging to several guilds, (b) those guilds regularly getting kiosks, and (c) add-ons that are only available to one-third of the players.

isn't what you say part of convenience?

you and i have had this conversation at least once before and the facts haven't changed..... anyone is free to offer anything (not bound) for sale at any time anywhere. the is no guarantee that they would make the sale but there is also no guarantee that same item would sell in a guild store or in a global store...

jedtb16_ESO

No

DoctorESO wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

But the thing DoctorESO failed to realize, or doesn't want to, is that the price gouging and undercutting does not apply equally to every single item. In fact he's trying to use that as a strawman argument in the quote you posted. Price gouging will simply guarantee that certain items will always be at or very slightly below the price ceiling, which will be artificially inflated because of said gouging. Likewise, items that are undercut will nearly always be at the price floor, which will be artificially low because there's so much undercutting taking place.

To give people perspective when I first created this thread, I actually summarized the arguments for both sides, not just one/

But if "items will always be at or very slightly below the price ceiling," doesn't this mean that the item has found its market value? Not sure what "price ceiling" refers to, but if everyone is buying and selling at a particular price, then that price is the market value. No?

Same thing with the "price floor."

to the part i put in bold.... well, no. you cherry picked a couple of arguments on each side and slanted the summary to fit your agenda.

this debate has been going on since beta.... there have been a lot more points made on both sides - try using the search function and going back to 2014 to see the reams of debate back then and since then.

from memory the real argument for a global auction house is that it would be more convenient.

against there are two - it would not fit the lore and a single market would be too easy to manipulate.

(and yes it would probably be valid to charge me with slanting the summary to fit my agenda)

price ceilings and floors are real world contrivances that don't really fit in a game world since they are devices to ensure that costs are covered and a reasonable return is made on investment. really doesn't apply here since you can't pay your isp with in game gold.

I've been keeping notes on the arguments people have made for both sides and will post it in the near future.

that really isn't necessary. anyone interested simply has to type 'auction house' in the search bar and click on search. they will get a thousand results (100 pages 10 entries per page.... i just did it) and, i suspect, each will lead to more posts on the subject. simply restating those in yet another thread isn't going to make any of those arguments either more or less compelling.

Tandor

Yes

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

<snip> from memory the real argument for a global auction house is that it would be more convenient. <snip>

That's true so far as the problems for buyers are concerned, but for sellers the main argument is that the game's trading system should be open to all and not dependent on (a) belonging to several guilds, (b) those guilds regularly getting kiosks, and (c) add-ons that are only available to one-third of the players.

isn't what you say part of convenience?

you and i have had this conversation at least once before and the facts haven't changed..... anyone is free to offer anything (not bound) for sale at any time anywhere. the is no guarantee that they would make the sale but there is also no guarantee that same item would sell in a guild store or in a global store...

No, the disadvantages of the present system to sellers are nothing to do with convenience, they are to do with basic functionality. Telling the people who don't have a kiosk or or the console players who can't use the add-ons without which PC players would themselves find the system dysfunctional that they can sell whatever they like wherever they like (which I take to mean that they can ignore the official trading system and spam zone chat) is no answer at all.

Let me stress again, for buyers the need to travel the world looking for items and the lack of a proper search function in the first place are both matters of convenience. For sellers, the inability for all players to access the trading system including the add-on functions which are essential to its effective operation is not a matter of convenience, it's an issue of basic functionality.

Titansteele

No

Moderators ..... Can you start closing these threads as soon as they pop up? Good moderators.

Tandor

Yes

Titansteele wrote: »

Moderators ..... Can you start closing these threads as soon as they pop up? Good moderators.

Why? There's a good honest debate going on in polite terms, about a subject on which opinion is currently evenly divided. The fact that the subject keeps coming up signifies that it's not a resolved issue. Would you adopt the same reasoning to close all threads about lag in Cyrodiil, for example? Or the merits or otherwise of Crown Crates? Those are also old chestnuts but they keep coming up because a lot of people continue to be concerned about them, and it's just the same with the trading system. Stifling discussion won't make it a better or more popular system.

Elsonso

No

Tandor wrote: »

Titansteele wrote: »

Moderators ..... Can you start closing these threads as soon as they pop up? Good moderators.

Why? There's a good honest debate going on in polite terms, about a subject on which opinion is currently evenly divided. The fact that the subject keeps coming up signifies that it's not a resolved issue. Would you adopt the same reasoning to close all threads about lag in Cyrodiil, for example? Or the merits or otherwise of Crown Crates? Those are also old chestnuts but they keep coming up because a lot of people continue to be concerned about them, and it's just the same with the trading system. Stifling discussion won't make it a better or more popular system.

While I don't want to have the moderators close the threads, they are getting stale and predictable.

Across the history of these threads, it certainly appears that everything has been said. I see different implementation ideas, but all of the pros and cons of global stores vs local stores are pretty much the same. Comparisons with other games have been posted, analyzed, refuted, and supported. Theories about what effects will be seen if nothing changes, or everything changes, have been debated. Testimonials about the good and bad things from both systems have been documented.

This thread, and the several that will follow, exemplifies the whole concept of "beating a dead horse", if for no other reason than nothing new happens. It is to the point now where one can appear to hold an intelligent conversation in a thread like this by doing nothing more than using copy-paste to repeat random lines from previous conversations. I feel like I am just repeating myself in these threads if I respond.

In all of this, ZOS has a system that they feel works with ESO and is what they want to do. I agree. It does fit with this game. Like a glove. I have played other MMOs and have used both. I prefer what ZOS is attempting here. I'd like to see it adopted by a couple of other MMO games that currently use global stores.

I do have to say that it isn't finished. They have yet to address numerous "last mile" usability and design issues. Sadly, I am beginning to wonder whether the ZOS production team will ever come back to finish what was started back in 2014.

MacCait

Yes

I agree with the original notion that the Auction house is not a good idea for the economy of the game.... however, that was before the issues regarding a small group of people cornering the market and glitching traders.

We all know who they are, the small teams (at least on PS4) who buy up all traders and trading guilds, have a monopoly of extraordinary in-game money, and dictate the price of everything... that also is not helping the in game economy.

A central Auction house would take away their power and allow a fairer system across the board for all players

Minyassa

Yes

Yeah, but sadly, that's just not how they envisioned this game. This comes up every so often and it's just not even a consideration. I hate it the way it is, it's a huge pain in the butt, but we gotta take the bad with the good.

These arguments against it, though...I have to wonder why it works so well in other games without any of those dire predictions coming true. The auction house in LOTRO has never had a problem with exhorbitant prices or market cornering. People generally mock the idiots that post things for stupid prices, and don't buy from them, and there's just never any way to corner the market when people can add their own batches of resources at any time. I guess the people who think these things are doomed to happen just haven't played in a game with unlimited resources where a global auction house worked.

Navarr

Yes

DoctorESO wrote: »

I've been keeping notes on the arguments people have made for both sides and will post it in the near future.

I'm looking forward to this. Please keep it neutral.

Peekachu99

Yes

Why is this still being debated in 2018? Every other online game under the sun has a marketplace and they function just fine. No one seeks to replicate ESO’s marketplace and that’s a clear and damning indictment.

As far as gold sinks, there’s housing and now outfits. The 5K/ wk the average Joe pays in dues to sell his crap has literally no influence on the high end brokers and gold farmers. Indeed, actual gold farmers almost certainly have set up shop within prominent, well-located kiosks and guilds.

What’s funny is that 90% of the people who argue in favour of the current system use TTC and Master Merchant, which isn’t even the using the marketplace, but instead a more organized and beneficial set of tools than what’s on offer. Stop using those addons and I could take the “pro-kiosk” crowd seriously. Until then, it’s hypocrisy at its best.

Ragnarok0130

Yes

DoctorESO wrote: »

ARGUMENT AGAINST A GLOBAL AUCTION HOUSE:

The normal principles of economics do not apply in ESO, or any video game for that matter, for one simple reason - resources are not "scarce." In fact, they are unlimited. That's what happens when you play a virtual game. What this means is that people can and will easily flood the market. Anything and everything will be for sale, which will drive down the prices and make it very difficult for most sellers to make gold. Only the sellers of the rarest items will be able to make decent money.

Except that the laws of supply and demand do in fact apply to video game economics. SWTOR has a global auction house and the market fluctuates, rare (i.e. scarce or prestigious items) go for higher prices than normal or common items. If a rare item is on sale for direct purchase in the Cartel Market (real money store front like the crown store) prices for those items naturally fall on the GTN (see supply v demand). When credits were easily attained the economy experienced inflation of prices since people could more easily afford things hence demand increased driving prices up.

An auction house would also further reward crafting and those willing to learn the rare styles (which will be important with the new outfit designer) and traits. The auction house would cover all the functions of the current traders only it would be for the entire mega server so you won't have to ride all over Tamriel looking at various traders for that one item you're looking for. You can also price compare easier due to the one stop shop vs traveling all over to find traders.

A consolidated auction house would also let everyone sell items and not just those in larger guilds who could bid on traders which to me is a net positive for the general player base.

VoiDGhOs7

No

TL:DR
And as some people already said there were been too many shenanigans with ESO economy which is already too fragile.

DoctorESO

Yes

.

idk

No

OP left out the most important factor when he updated his OP. The guild trading system is vibrant and has been working fine for years. ESO has a solid economy.

Elsonso

No

DoctorESO wrote: »

It seems mostly everyone has had a chance to express their views, so as promised I will conclude with the following brief bullet point summary of points each side has expressed. At the time of this posting, the community is evenly split between being in favor of and opposed to the global auction/trading house (307 voted yes, 307 voted no, and the remaining 5% voted indifferent).

IN FAVOR OF A GLOBAL AUCTION/TRADING HOUSE
- Shouldn't have to join a trading guild
- Limited prime trader spots
- Need a global search feature anyway
- Takes too long to find what you need
- It will be more of a gold sink
- Unfriendly to new players
- Lower prices for the mass consumer
- Levels the playing field for both buyers and sellers
- High-end trading guilds already corner the market
- It would reduce zone chat spam from sellers
- It will make more items available, especially for characters under 50, enabling them to both find what they need and make money selling items below the max level

AGAINST A GLOBAL AUCTION/TRADING HOUSE
- More monopolization of the market
- Major price undercutting (due to everyone trying to sell for one gold less than the other)
- It will be less of a gold sink
- It's unique not having one
- Only benefits the richest 1%
- Current system rewards those who put forth the most time and effort
- It's fun searching for bargains
- Internal guild stores are sufficient for casual sellers
- It allows for rise and fall of great trading guilds
- Encourages guild membership

Thanks for the summary

Nihility42

No

I'd like some of the features of TTC, MM, and AwesomeGuildStore to be added to the base game. Particularly search and sort options within traders. That said, I enjoy the system as is. It rewards people who want to put time into being a trader and scouring various guild stores for deals. I find that to be a really rewarding part of my game.

Elsonso

No

Nihility42 wrote: »

I'd like some of the features of TTC, MM, and AwesomeGuildStore to be added to the base game. Particularly search and sort options within traders. That said, I enjoy the system as is. It rewards people who want to put time into being a trader and scouring various guild stores for deals. I find that to be a really rewarding part of my game.

They should just include Awesome Guild Store in the base game. Search and filtering, saved between guild stores and logins.

They also need a base game method to find out how much stuff recently sold for. Master Merchant functionality. Edit: without paging through log files.

Last, if they add a global search, it should not include prices. That is one feature of TTC that works against the trade system.

knaveofengland

Yes

real pain in the backside trying to get some thing form the guild stores end up wasteing that much time and effort.looking at the 5 guilds , no joy then going to find other guiuld stores in towns,so much time wasted .

just makes sence to have a global auction/store/shop whatever you want to call it . when runescape done a global auction place everyone at first hated and did not want it after a few months there was no more complaints and it worked vey well .

dont think zos will do a global auction house .