...and why Necromancers?

xeNNNNN

TheShadowScout wrote: »

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Just a note some people still arent getting whether they like it or not ESO is actually cannon just FYI so "ESO Lore" is a load of crock, if you dont like that take it up with bethesda. As they're the reason all the retcons went ahead in the first place including cyros "jungle".

I am not quite sure what all that was supposed to refer to, but...

ESO is "canon" as it goes, because the ones who made it hold the license. And will remain thus until someone higher up in the chain of licenseholdings says "nah, it isn't part of the canon TES universe..." (not that they would, since that would be for one quite unneccesary, for another cutting into their own profits...)

So they do get to rewrite the lore if they really, really need to (like the "cyrodil jungles", though that bit of lore can be considered hyperbole and a tall tale added to Talos tale to ascribe him added divinity anyhow... wait... does that mean... Talos is the Chuck Norris of Tamriel??? )

That being said, the less they have to retcon, the better, yes? And thus it would make more sense of them to not contradict themselves as much as possible, right? And thus... it makes sense for us here to do our best to follow the lore in whatever suggestions we might dream up and not import depictions from different games, and different universes... those are those universes, this is the TES universe.

It was just intended as a tagged note almost. It wasn't supposed to be directed at you though I cannot fault you for being confused by it being a response to your comment.

Generally speaking I was just frustrated as some people still believed ESO wasn't cannon and such using it as an excuse to berate the game just because they can (this usually came from rather egotistical people as well who would of thunk).

As for the jungle ... meh .... using chim to clear the jungle throughout all time its....ACCEPTABLE seeing as when they did retcon it up until we saw the land in the game we didn't really know what it was like back then it was just "observations". Talos the chuck norris of tameriel? Meh Talos doesn't know mixed martial arts - he just knows how to get the numidium without actually trying to get the numidium :P

Yes less retcons the better however the argument (this is not your argument but rather one I have seen from others) that the "lorebooks" that talk of information and lands and people from before Daggerfall should always be considered cannon and not conjecture and subjective and reasonably and rationally up for change or affirmation should they need to be too fit with the future or past story being told provided it doesn't break other things in the process is just silly, the games have always provided the visual evidence for us not the books.

I mean when for example; the supposed idea that the land of summerset was made out of crystalline butterflies? I mean its fanciful but not very reasonable or rational. I feel like that was more metaphor than reality but people took it at face value and believed it and then got upset when summerset was revealed. Its all really silly. Just because a book exists saying this and that provided it hasn't been provided proof for or visual evidence of then it should be subject too change so long as like I said it doesn't break other things horribly. Retcons can work if done right just not all the time.

srnekro

PlagueSD wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Tbh your could run a necromancer from a warden with reskins on the visual powers.
- bear becomes undead pet
- cliff racer becomes ghost
- subterranean assault becomes vomiting zombies
- etc etc

Yep, Warden class is about as close as you're going to get to a Necromancer.

Too bad if you want to have a pet, the bear is gonna ocupy two ult slots. So basicly, you won't have a very cool ultimate. While your buddies are summoning meteors and storms, your pet will just do one slightly stronger attack

srnekro

Avalon wrote: »

srnekro wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

How about a skill lines instead of a new Class?
Necromancy used to just be part of Conjuration. Now Conjuration, like destruction, is splitting apart in this system.

Or, how about we ditch the class system altogether, and make ESO class-less. You can only declare 3 'class' skill trees, so, have to be careful which ones you pick. Make your own class. Then, they could add in one skill tree at a time, like Necromancy, and anyone who wants to play with it, can. Then, whenever they modify some skill trees, no one screams out, "YOU BROKE MY [INSERT CLASS HERE]!!", just sub a new skill tree at the respec shrines.

But I think that ESO would stop being an MMO. MMORPG need to have different classes to appeal the RPG part and put enfases on the "MASSIVE" part. Putting the game "classless" would be very "lazy" on the part of the designers, if you ask me. Like" Mhe, we done trying. Let the players make the game and we just profit over them"

See, I think it is exactly opposite. By opening it up like that, it puts the RPG back into the MMO. And, I have no idea where you see MMO being removed by that, since, as long as there are tons of people playing (which there would be), and the size of the game, we get all meanings of "massive" and "multiplayer", and, well, it's still online... so...

And, you think it is lazy to go class-less? Do you understand just how difficult it would be to keep a game working under those mechanics? Why do you think the second Dragon age game scaled back player freedom so much? So many games have realized it is a HUGE amount of work to go with complete freedom to the players. Why? Because with the way ESO is right now, with over 300 morphs, and 10 slots (5 on each of 2 bars), etc etc...

We end up with about 130 times more build options, to the point where it is feasible that every single player could have their own absolutely unique build, and there would STILL be millions more unique builds that are not being used. Think about how difficult that would be to balance, even remotely close to being balanced. THAT is why they don't do it. A class-based game keeps things limited, which greatly simplifies their jobs in keeping things running smoothly.

Now, the game would be far better without classes, but, based on how little work they want to put forth to rake in the amounts of cash that they do? It will never happen. If they could run this game on a dev team of 2 PC, 1 Xbox, 1 Sony, they WOULD lol. So, yeah, they ARE going with the lazy option. Class-less would be entirely too much work.

I see your point. I understand. And you are right.

Regardless, I just can't help it to feel uneasy with the idea. To give complete freedom to do boundless class, although that sounds really amazing, I can't help to feel uncomfortable.
I can't explain in to words, sadly, but I am not very found of the idea.

The idea is still good nonetheless, but I really think that MMORPG need to have classes, is like the "thrill of choice" if I can put it like that.
Like for instance, let's say you are 7 yo, and your mother brings you to a toy store, and she say you can only take ONE toy, so you gonna think real hard on all the choices to bring the best toy you can find. In another hand, if she says, you can bring everything you want, and you will be like, "mhe ok whatever" you wouldn't find anything special because you would already have everything handed to you on a silver plate.

By picking one in many, it gives this one you choose a special "flavour" if you know what I mean. I am just saying, if you have the choice to get everything, all becomes tasteless. On my view ofc.

srnekro

exeeter702 wrote: »

srnekro wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

srnekro wrote: »

With all this Summerset business, I just realised something.

On the first chapter was Morrowind. Which is ruled by the Dunmer. Witch they are on the Pact. And Vvardenfell is next on the Pact zone.

Now we have Summerset . Which give us access to Summerset , which is the domain of High Elves, who started the Dominion.

Perhaps the next chapter would be set on the Covenant side? Some sort of uncharted continent discovered by a Red Guard fleet or something. And- the main point is- since the Covenant was using Necromancy on the Pact (Pact beginners quests) we would have Necromancer (as class) add it with this chapter.
(You know, since Morrowind was right next to the pact start zone, and Summerset to Dominion)..

Either way, besides bringing Necromancers in to the fray, since Bretons have their way with magic, this chapter, IF it will be focused near the covenant in semelancy to pattern of the previous chapters, would be a perfect chance to bring that concept of we (the players) creating our own magic spells. You know, that concept that Zos talked about back on 2014. Spellcraft.

https://youtu.be/3LkeMacg-b0?t=53m1s

We are really missing out a sixth class on the game. Something different of the other. Like a class focused more on diseases, poison damage, debuffs and of course, the raising of the dead.

Well technically the first chapter we ever got WAS covenant based.

Orsimer - orsinium
Dunmer - morrowind
Altmer - summerset

The point is these chapters are race centric not faction centric. So what you really want is the next chapter to be based around the redgaurd. A fair request but i doubt the next chapter will be anyting but murkmire.

I don't consider orsinium a chapter. It was just a dlc like any other. Chapthers add a lot of new content in to the game, while a dlc add a thing or two, thats why I am focusiong on the Convenant part.

But yes, saying that chapters were faction centric was a bit miss leading concept, but since the patter is leading this way so far, maybe the next chaptter will be focused on the Bretons, or even RedGuard, they both have a history with Necromancers...

Sorry man, but orsinium was most definitely a chapter by everything but name. Regardless of personal feelings. That product was under the same budget that morrowind and summerset have. It just came at a time of a different content launch strategy. If orsinium had never came out, but was released next year, it would have been a chapter plain and simple with the inclusion of 2 game features.

Land mass on par with both vvardenfell and Summerset. Solo trial arena. 9 new sets, nee new maelstrom weapons. Same amount of delves, world bosse, group dungeons and same length of main storyline play through. Jewelery crafting, warden, battle grounds and psijic skill line were all independent productions added in for value. Nothing about that would have changed if we had gotten morrowind first and orsinium after they "chapter" dlc restructuring.

Alright, I didn't realise.

Still, that only proves my point on the "pattern". First we get the Covenant (Orsinium in this case), next morrowind (Pact) and now summerset (Dominion). Now, the way I see it it would go around again, back to the covenant OR maybe the Imperial side? Besides the White Tower DLC, some other more "deep" expansion on that side?

That would be interesting...

aaisoaho

If there was a necromancer class, it'd most probably have skill lines dedicated to: destruction magic, conjuring undead and using the souls of fallen to protect and attack, and regeneration/restoration. Because in Elder Scrolls francise necromancers aspires to be liches and liches use destruction magic, conjuration and restoration.
"--Liches are some of the most powerful undead as they are able to cast vast amounts of spells such as destruction magic, and are able to summon undead such as skeletons and zombies. They apparently can resist magical attacks, and therefore are not to be trifled with; extreme caution should be taken when fighting with one. Liches can see those that are invisible" (From: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Lich ). There's quite alot a necromancer/lich could do and they do not involve the stereotype of a necromancer from various other games.

Now the necromancy in itself is banned from multiple regions of Tamriel, for example: Morrowind, Bangkorai and Alik'r desert. Psijics, dunmers and redguards sees it as evil, so you'd be hated and hunted by at least third of the population. So in itself, it would not be a feasible to create in-game, because either lore or gameplay suffers from creating a necromancy for players.

If you decide not to break the lore with necromancy, you could not hang around many cities, because guards would attack you and merchants/NPCs wouldn't talk to you, which would harm your gameplay experience. On the other hand, you could harm the lore by preventing guards from attacking a necromancer and by making NPCs friendly towards one.

And I might have said this before along with others: necromancy is subclass of Conjuration magic. Disease/poison has nothing to do with necromancy in-game and coldfire is all about Oblivion and heavily associated with Molag Bal.

Lazarus_Rising

aaisoaho wrote: »

If there was a necromancer class, it'd most probably have skill lines dedicated to: destruction magic, conjuring undead and using the souls of fallen to protect and attack, and regeneration/restoration. Because in Elder Scrolls francise necromancers aspires to be liches and liches use destruction magic, conjuration and restoration.
"--Liches are some of the most powerful undead as they are able to cast vast amounts of spells such as destruction magic, and are able to summon undead such as skeletons and zombies. They apparently can resist magical attacks, and therefore are not to be trifled with; extreme caution should be taken when fighting with one. Liches can see those that are invisible" (From: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Lich ). There's quite alot a necromancer/lich could do and they do not involve the stereotype of a necromancer from various other games.

Now the necromancy in itself is banned from multiple regions of Tamriel, for example: Morrowind, Bangkorai and Alik'r desert. Psijics, dunmers and redguards sees it as evil, so you'd be hated and hunted by at least third of the population. So in itself, it would not be a feasible to create in-game, because either lore or gameplay suffers from creating a necromancy for players.

If you decide not to break the lore with necromancy, you could not hang around many cities, because guards would attack you and merchants/NPCs wouldn't talk to you, which would harm your gameplay experience. On the other hand, you could harm the lore by preventing guards from attacking a necromancer and by making NPCs friendly towards one.

And I might have said this before along with others: necromancy is subclass of Conjuration magic. Disease/poison has nothing to do with necromancy in-game and coldfire is all about Oblivion and heavily associated with Molag Bal.

break the lore like dark brotherhood assassins, thieves, vampires, werewolves etc. Also running around with summoned daedras as sorc should be lore breaking then.

srnekro

@aaisoaho You are kind of right. Especially on the description of a Lich.

But I strong support @Lazarus_Rising argument. Its not logical you "ban" Necromancer Players BECAUSE of this specific argument as you have thieves, assassins, vamps and werewolves running around in towns while NPCs are friendly to them.

If the NPCs are ok with them, why they shouldn't be towards Necromancer players?

And furthermore, Desctro, Undead Conjuring(Conjuration) And Restoration would be the three skill lines that are need it to give birth to a class.

Cheetac19

Maybe to help lore-wise your player is sorta necromancer in hiding. And when you enter a town your undead forcibly despawn? Of course that wouldn't solve random NPCs.. but as a serious question, why are NPCs ok with summoned daedra?

TheShadowScout

srnekro wrote: »

With all this Summerset business, I just realised something.

On the first chapter was Morrowind. Which is ruled by the Dunmer. Witch they are on the Pact. And Vvardenfell is next on the Pact zone.

Now we have Summerset . Which give us access to Summerset , which is the domain of High Elves, who started the Dominion.

Perhaps the next chapter would be set on the Covenant side?...

Well, it definitely would make sense to have something for the covenant eventually... next? Well... let's review all post-mainstory and cadwells content, shall we?
Craglorn - Covenant-ish
Orsinium - Covenant-isj
Imperial City - Imperial-ish warzone
ThievesGuild - Covenant-ish
DarkBrotherhood - Imperial-ish
Morrowind - Pact-ish expansion
ClockworkCity - Pact-ish
Summerset - Dominion-ish

...which might indicate... that before the scales are balanced in favor of a DC expansion, they need to add what, two EP and three AD DLCs? And maybe one more "neutral "or "imperial" expansion? Or if we count two DLCs as equal to one expansion... that they still owe the AD one DLC before things are even balanced and they can move on to the next, or...

Most logical for "next DLC" would be elsweyr, since they owe AD one more, and that is a region they have not touched upon yet for DLC purpuses...

Anyhow, looking at things from the "give me necromancy" point of view...
...
...I say again,. the most reasonable way would be a DLC centered about "infiltrating the remains of the worm cult" to stop their next desperate scheme now that their planemeld plans are all dashed and such (maybe with an -option- to learn necromancy yourself, or to choose not to go there and just pose as "minion" instead, so the story remains viable for both those who like to play eeeebbbbil necromancers and goody-two-greaves? ), possibly in some of the leftover imperial lands (colovian highlands? Nibenay? Blackwood?). Another possibility might be using a similar plot in a desert region abour hammerfell, but... well, we already had our "stop the necromancers from raising the honored dead" story in the DC Alik'r story, so that might be a bit... "been there, done that"... the imperial connection and worm cult infiltration seems the more likely story.
And make necromancy a guild-sized skill line, like the Psijic order thing. Not a class. So that -every- character can choose to specialize in that sort of thing, no matter of newly made or played since launch. Or not, if their stomachs are not up to all the playing with corpses.

...

And looking at things from a "next expansion" point of view...
...
...well, mainland tamriel would be better done in region-sized DLCs, the only "expansion" sized targets I can think of right away would be a "Pyandonea" expansion, letting people go there to see how the sea elves live; or an "Akaviri" expansion, letting people visit the three isles (Cathnoquey - Esroniet - Yneslea) in the padomeic ocean between Tamriel and Aklavir, which at this point in time would be akaviri territory... possibly also a "Atmora" and an "Yokuda" expansion revisiting the desolate ruins of those places (though seeing how we have redguards and nords right there in tamriel, I doubt those places would be as interesting as the never seen maormer or akaviri options!)

Avalon

srnekro wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

srnekro wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

How about a skill lines instead of a new Class?
Necromancy used to just be part of Conjuration. Now Conjuration, like destruction, is splitting apart in this system.

Or, how about we ditch the class system altogether, and make ESO class-less. You can only declare 3 'class' skill trees, so, have to be careful which ones you pick. Make your own class. Then, they could add in one skill tree at a time, like Necromancy, and anyone who wants to play with it, can. Then, whenever they modify some skill trees, no one screams out, "YOU BROKE MY [INSERT CLASS HERE]!!", just sub a new skill tree at the respec shrines.

But I think that ESO would stop being an MMO. MMORPG need to have different classes to appeal the RPG part and put enfases on the "MASSIVE" part. Putting the game "classless" would be very "lazy" on the part of the designers, if you ask me. Like" Mhe, we done trying. Let the players make the game and we just profit over them"

See, I think it is exactly opposite. By opening it up like that, it puts the RPG back into the MMO. And, I have no idea where you see MMO being removed by that, since, as long as there are tons of people playing (which there would be), and the size of the game, we get all meanings of "massive" and "multiplayer", and, well, it's still online... so...

And, you think it is lazy to go class-less? Do you understand just how difficult it would be to keep a game working under those mechanics? Why do you think the second Dragon age game scaled back player freedom so much? So many games have realized it is a HUGE amount of work to go with complete freedom to the players. Why? Because with the way ESO is right now, with over 300 morphs, and 10 slots (5 on each of 2 bars), etc etc...

We end up with about 130 times more build options, to the point where it is feasible that every single player could have their own absolutely unique build, and there would STILL be millions more unique builds that are not being used. Think about how difficult that would be to balance, even remotely close to being balanced. THAT is why they don't do it. A class-based game keeps things limited, which greatly simplifies their jobs in keeping things running smoothly.

Now, the game would be far better without classes, but, based on how little work they want to put forth to rake in the amounts of cash that they do? It will never happen. If they could run this game on a dev team of 2 PC, 1 Xbox, 1 Sony, they WOULD lol. So, yeah, they ARE going with the lazy option. Class-less would be entirely too much work.

I see your point. I understand. And you are right.

Regardless, I just can't help it to feel uneasy with the idea. To give complete freedom to do boundless class, although that sounds really amazing, I can't help to feel uncomfortable.
I can't explain in to words, sadly, but I am not very found of the idea.

The idea is still good nonetheless, but I really think that MMORPG need to have classes, is like the "thrill of choice" if I can put it like that.
Like for instance, let's say you are 7 yo, and your mother brings you to a toy store, and she say you can only take ONE toy, so you gonna think real hard on all the choices to bring the best toy you can find. In another hand, if she says, you can bring everything you want, and you will be like, "mhe ok whatever" you wouldn't find anything special because you would already have everything handed to you on a silver plate.

By picking one in many, it gives this one you choose a special "flavour" if you know what I mean. I am just saying, if you have the choice to get everything, all becomes tasteless. On my view ofc.

I could see that, yes, if all class trees were always open. But, by making players pick only 3 trees, they are still being forced to 'pick only one toy'. I also think this would allow ZOS to really see which lines people like the most, like the least, etc, which would help them make the game better in the end.

But, I also think they should stop making end-game content based on the BiS min/maxers. Instead, make the end-game content generally as open as the rest of the game, just a touch harder. But, when a decent portion of the game is locked behind a mandate to have the right race mixed with right class, using the right sets, and a specific build? The game may as well have no freedom then. It may as well be like Everquest or Vanilla-WoW, where players really had no REAL choices, except in character creation.

Combine near complete freedom of builds (pick 3 trees), with a much more open end-game, and they would retain a much larger playerbase. Last numbers that I saw said there is a current playerbase of 1 million roughly, but the game has had over 8 million accounts made. Even including players with more than 1 account... that is a really high turnover rate. They could probably do a greater job at retention if all players could enjoy the entire game... right now, they can enjoy up to that end-game, that takes all of a month to get to, then, they smash their heads against a brick wall composed of insanely rare equipment farms, the guild vendor system, dungeon/trial difficulties that scale like a cliff, etc.

The game goes from easy as can be difficulty level of 1-10, then in the space of no time at all, goes to 100, then to a million... and those players at that end-game, that can handle it (due to having played a long time and got in when it was a smooth transition, or had some help getting through from friends who were there, etc) blame the complaints (if the players about to quit even bother) on, "Oh, you just want stuff handed to you!"

I think they could do a lot with this game, and make a lot more money (because if the casuals stick around longer, they spend more money, and casuals way outnumber the elites... out of a current pop of 1 million, probably 850K are casuals)

srnekro

TheShadowScout wrote: »

srnekro wrote: »

With all this Summerset business, I just realised something.

On the first chapter was Morrowind. Which is ruled by the Dunmer. Witch they are on the Pact. And Vvardenfell is next on the Pact zone.

Now we have Summerset . Which give us access to Summerset , which is the domain of High Elves, who started the Dominion.

Perhaps the next chapter would be set on the Covenant side?...

Well, it definitely would make sense to have something for the covenant eventually... next? Well... let's review all post-mainstory and cadwells content, shall we?
Craglorn - Covenant-ish
Orsinium - Covenant-isj
Imperial City - Imperial-ish warzone
ThievesGuild - Covenant-ish
DarkBrotherhood - Imperial-ish
Morrowind - Pact-ish expansion
ClockworkCity - Pact-ish
Summerset - Dominion-ish

...which might indicate... that before the scales are balanced in favor of a DC expansion, they need to add what, two EP and three AD DLCs? And maybe one more "neutral "or "imperial" expansion? Or if we count two DLCs as equal to one expansion... that they still owe the AD one DLC before things are even balanced and they can move on to the next, or...

Most logical for "next DLC" would be elsweyr, since they owe AD one more, and that is a region they have not touched upon yet for DLC purpuses...

Anyhow, looking at things from the "give me necromancy" point of view...
...
...I say again,. the most reasonable way would be a DLC centered about "infiltrating the remains of the worm cult" to stop their next desperate scheme now that their planemeld plans are all dashed and such (maybe with an -option- to learn necromancy yourself, or to choose not to go there and just pose as "minion" instead, so the story remains viable for both those who like to play eeeebbbbil necromancers and goody-two-greaves? ), possibly in some of the leftover imperial lands (colovian highlands? Nibenay? Blackwood?). Another possibility might be using a similar plot in a desert region abour hammerfell, but... well, we already had our "stop the necromancers from raising the honored dead" story in the DC Alik'r story, so that might be a bit... "been there, done that"... the imperial connection and worm cult infiltration seems the more likely story.
And make necromancy a guild-sized skill line, like the Psijic order thing. Not a class. So that -every- character can choose to specialize in that sort of thing, no matter of newly made or played since launch. Or not, if their stomachs are not up to all the playing with corpses.

...

And looking at things from a "next expansion" point of view...
...
...well, mainland tamriel would be better done in region-sized DLCs, the only "expansion" sized targets I can think of right away would be a "Pyandonea" expansion, letting people go there to see how the sea elves live; or an "Akaviri" expansion, letting people visit the three isles (Cathnoquey - Esroniet - Yneslea) in the padomeic ocean between Tamriel and Aklavir, which at this point in time would be akaviri territory... possibly also a "Atmora" and an "Yokuda" expansion revisiting the desolate ruins of those places (though seeing how we have redguards and nords right there in tamriel, I doubt those places would be as interesting as the never seen maormer or akaviri options!)

I just simply can't agree with you.

Neither of this point are valid to "ban" Necros as class.
Basically, with all this, it means Zos will never add another class. Which is impossible. We already have 5, with a 6th slot hanging there all empty. They will add another class eventually. Lets just hope that would be Necromancer, because it makes sense. ESO lore is replete with undead, undead, dark magic,necromancy and things like that, for the good or for the bad. Is only logical.

srnekro

Avalon wrote: »

srnekro wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

srnekro wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

How about a skill lines instead of a new Class?
Necromancy used to just be part of Conjuration. Now Conjuration, like destruction, is splitting apart in this system.

Or, how about we ditch the class system altogether, and make ESO class-less. You can only declare 3 'class' skill trees, so, have to be careful which ones you pick. Make your own class. Then, they could add in one skill tree at a time, like Necromancy, and anyone who wants to play with it, can. Then, whenever they modify some skill trees, no one screams out, "YOU BROKE MY [INSERT CLASS HERE]!!", just sub a new skill tree at the respec shrines.

But I think that ESO would stop being an MMO. MMORPG need to have different classes to appeal the RPG part and put enfases on the "MASSIVE" part. Putting the game "classless" would be very "lazy" on the part of the designers, if you ask me. Like" Mhe, we done trying. Let the players make the game and we just profit over them"

See, I think it is exactly opposite. By opening it up like that, it puts the RPG back into the MMO. And, I have no idea where you see MMO being removed by that, since, as long as there are tons of people playing (which there would be), and the size of the game, we get all meanings of "massive" and "multiplayer", and, well, it's still online... so...

And, you think it is lazy to go class-less? Do you understand just how difficult it would be to keep a game working under those mechanics? Why do you think the second Dragon age game scaled back player freedom so much? So many games have realized it is a HUGE amount of work to go with complete freedom to the players. Why? Because with the way ESO is right now, with over 300 morphs, and 10 slots (5 on each of 2 bars), etc etc...

We end up with about 130 times more build options, to the point where it is feasible that every single player could have their own absolutely unique build, and there would STILL be millions more unique builds that are not being used. Think about how difficult that would be to balance, even remotely close to being balanced. THAT is why they don't do it. A class-based game keeps things limited, which greatly simplifies their jobs in keeping things running smoothly.

Now, the game would be far better without classes, but, based on how little work they want to put forth to rake in the amounts of cash that they do? It will never happen. If they could run this game on a dev team of 2 PC, 1 Xbox, 1 Sony, they WOULD lol. So, yeah, they ARE going with the lazy option. Class-less would be entirely too much work.

I see your point. I understand. And you are right.

Regardless, I just can't help it to feel uneasy with the idea. To give complete freedom to do boundless class, although that sounds really amazing, I can't help to feel uncomfortable.
I can't explain in to words, sadly, but I am not very found of the idea.

The idea is still good nonetheless, but I really think that MMORPG need to have classes, is like the "thrill of choice" if I can put it like that.
Like for instance, let's say you are 7 yo, and your mother brings you to a toy store, and she say you can only take ONE toy, so you gonna think real hard on all the choices to bring the best toy you can find. In another hand, if she says, you can bring everything you want, and you will be like, "mhe ok whatever" you wouldn't find anything special because you would already have everything handed to you on a silver plate.

By picking one in many, it gives this one you choose a special "flavour" if you know what I mean. I am just saying, if you have the choice to get everything, all becomes tasteless. On my view ofc.

I could see that, yes, if all class trees were always open. But, by making players pick only 3 trees, they are still being forced to 'pick only one toy'. I also think this would allow ZOS to really see which lines people like the most, like the least, etc, which would help them make the game better in the end.

But, I also think they should stop making end-game content based on the BiS min/maxers. Instead, make the end-game content generally as open as the rest of the game, just a touch harder. But, when a decent portion of the game is locked behind a mandate to have the right race mixed with right class, using the right sets, and a specific build? The game may as well have no freedom then. It may as well be like Everquest or Vanilla-WoW, where players really had no REAL choices, except in character creation.

Combine near complete freedom of builds (pick 3 trees), with a much more open end-game, and they would retain a much larger playerbase. Last numbers that I saw said there is a current playerbase of 1 million roughly, but the game has had over 8 million accounts made. Even including players with more than 1 account... that is a really high turnover rate. They could probably do a greater job at retention if all players could enjoy the entire game... right now, they can enjoy up to that end-game, that takes all of a month to get to, then, they smash their heads against a brick wall composed of insanely rare equipment farms, the guild vendor system, dungeon/trial difficulties that scale like a cliff, etc.

The game goes from easy as can be difficulty level of 1-10, then in the space of no time at all, goes to 100, then to a million... and those players at that end-game, that can handle it (due to having played a long time and got in when it was a smooth transition, or had some help getting through from friends who were there, etc) blame the complaints (if the players about to quit even bother) on, "Oh, you just want stuff handed to you!"

I think they could do a lot with this game, and make a lot more money (because if the casuals stick around longer, they spend more money, and casuals way outnumber the elites... out of a current pop of 1 million, probably 850K are casuals)

Totally agree with you.

I am not saying that this game has more grind than WoW, but each patch they make, is getting close to it.

Take dungeons and veteran dungeons for example. They let you start queueing for Vet Dungs when you hit 160, but you get insta kick because you are "Low lv" since you get paired with guys that are already beyond level 700/800. And you are like "Oh, thanks Zos for keep me waiting 30 mins to find a party so I get insta kicked, and now I have to wait 15 min to start queuing again".

And even if you grind the sets and have the "perfect" build, you still need to grind all the way up to lv >720 to really enjoy the end game features. And by the time you get there, you probably have killed all your joy on this game.

For me, for instanse, is ultra complicated. Because I realy like this game. The mechanics and all, but I don't find any of the current class enjoyable. Therefore, its realy hard to lv up a char for me, because I get bored because of the skills that are "given" to me.

That's why I agree with you when you speak on "more freedom". Because, so far, we only have the "ilusion" of freedom. But the actualy freedom of choice that we have is to play exactly as Zos wants and be "good" or play as you want and get f*#$d

TheShadowScout

srnekro wrote: »

I just simply can't agree with you.

Then don't.
My point still stands!
And we can agree not to agree and still argue our respective points - as long as we -admit- those are our subjective opinions and not try and portray them as the only possible "truth".

srnekro wrote: »

Basically, with all this, it means Zos will never add another class.

Which would be fine by me - not add new classes, and add the new stuff as guilds and skill lines, so people don't have to make yet another new character to enjoy new stuff, but can jump in no matter if they are new to the game or have been with ESO since summer '14!

srnekro wrote: »

...They will add another class eventually. Lets just hope that would be Necromancer, because it makes sense...

Actually, as classes, go, that would be the one that makes -least- sense. Literally -everything- would make more sense, be it monks, battlemages, sword-singers, etc.
Since for one, necromancers are not a "class" all by itself (but we have been over that) but merely a skill line... and for another, they are -exactly- what everyone fights against throughout the mainstory!

...


Yes.
We know.
You want this, very much so, and so you argue that is it "only logical". Much like the bolsheviks argued communism was the "only logical" form of government. Or pretty much anyone else (including me arguing my class morph idea is only logical, though I try to be wise enough to admit on occasion that all of the skill lines I dreamt up there could also be used in other ways... )

And as I keep saying... I too would like to see some more player necromancy... (see above as to how) but we differ quite a bit in our opinion about how that could best be implemented!

Zardayne

dday3six wrote: »

I’m not the biggest lore nerd, but it needs to matter at some point.

Spoilers: Meridia is a large part of the main story, and she loathes the Undead, Vampires, and Nercomancers. It’s bad enough that by some miracle she’ll ignore the present of Vampirism in the MC. Lore bills Meridia’s mythos in a very particular light. That has to account for something.

I'm not the biggest on Elder Scrolls lore either but In my opinion we've kinda moved past the breaking of lore part already with undead, frost, and flaming, mechanical, bears, and other crazy mounts. Does more stretching real hurt at this point..A year to year and half we'll have necromancers flinging death off of their flying griffon mounts while they battle the newly released dragons in the skies...

CaptainBeerDude

No necro class. Release the Dragonborn. It could utilise shouts to fill out enough skills to be an entire class.
Necromancy could easily fit as a world skill line, and it would give necromancers flavour based on the initial class archetype.

SilverIce58

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

No necro class. Release the Dragonborn. It could utilise shouts to fill out enough skills to be an entire class.
Necromancy could easily fit as a world skill line, and it would give necromancers flavour based on the initial class archetype.

No. If you want to play as a dragonborn, go play skyrim.

Avalon

srnekro wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

srnekro wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

srnekro wrote: »

Avalon wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

How about a skill lines instead of a new Class?
Necromancy used to just be part of Conjuration. Now Conjuration, like destruction, is splitting apart in this system.

Or, how about we ditch the class system altogether, and make ESO class-less. You can only declare 3 'class' skill trees, so, have to be careful which ones you pick. Make your own class. Then, they could add in one skill tree at a time, like Necromancy, and anyone who wants to play with it, can. Then, whenever they modify some skill trees, no one screams out, "YOU BROKE MY [INSERT CLASS HERE]!!", just sub a new skill tree at the respec shrines.

But I think that ESO would stop being an MMO. MMORPG need to have different classes to appeal the RPG part and put enfases on the "MASSIVE" part. Putting the game "classless" would be very "lazy" on the part of the designers, if you ask me. Like" Mhe, we done trying. Let the players make the game and we just profit over them"

See, I think it is exactly opposite. By opening it up like that, it puts the RPG back into the MMO. And, I have no idea where you see MMO being removed by that, since, as long as there are tons of people playing (which there would be), and the size of the game, we get all meanings of "massive" and "multiplayer", and, well, it's still online... so...

And, you think it is lazy to go class-less? Do you understand just how difficult it would be to keep a game working under those mechanics? Why do you think the second Dragon age game scaled back player freedom so much? So many games have realized it is a HUGE amount of work to go with complete freedom to the players. Why? Because with the way ESO is right now, with over 300 morphs, and 10 slots (5 on each of 2 bars), etc etc...

We end up with about 130 times more build options, to the point where it is feasible that every single player could have their own absolutely unique build, and there would STILL be millions more unique builds that are not being used. Think about how difficult that would be to balance, even remotely close to being balanced. THAT is why they don't do it. A class-based game keeps things limited, which greatly simplifies their jobs in keeping things running smoothly.

Now, the game would be far better without classes, but, based on how little work they want to put forth to rake in the amounts of cash that they do? It will never happen. If they could run this game on a dev team of 2 PC, 1 Xbox, 1 Sony, they WOULD lol. So, yeah, they ARE going with the lazy option. Class-less would be entirely too much work.

I see your point. I understand. And you are right.

Regardless, I just can't help it to feel uneasy with the idea. To give complete freedom to do boundless class, although that sounds really amazing, I can't help to feel uncomfortable.
I can't explain in to words, sadly, but I am not very found of the idea.

The idea is still good nonetheless, but I really think that MMORPG need to have classes, is like the "thrill of choice" if I can put it like that.
Like for instance, let's say you are 7 yo, and your mother brings you to a toy store, and she say you can only take ONE toy, so you gonna think real hard on all the choices to bring the best toy you can find. In another hand, if she says, you can bring everything you want, and you will be like, "mhe ok whatever" you wouldn't find anything special because you would already have everything handed to you on a silver plate.

By picking one in many, it gives this one you choose a special "flavour" if you know what I mean. I am just saying, if you have the choice to get everything, all becomes tasteless. On my view ofc.

I could see that, yes, if all class trees were always open. But, by making players pick only 3 trees, they are still being forced to 'pick only one toy'. I also think this would allow ZOS to really see which lines people like the most, like the least, etc, which would help them make the game better in the end.

But, I also think they should stop making end-game content based on the BiS min/maxers. Instead, make the end-game content generally as open as the rest of the game, just a touch harder. But, when a decent portion of the game is locked behind a mandate to have the right race mixed with right class, using the right sets, and a specific build? The game may as well have no freedom then. It may as well be like Everquest or Vanilla-WoW, where players really had no REAL choices, except in character creation.

Combine near complete freedom of builds (pick 3 trees), with a much more open end-game, and they would retain a much larger playerbase. Last numbers that I saw said there is a current playerbase of 1 million roughly, but the game has had over 8 million accounts made. Even including players with more than 1 account... that is a really high turnover rate. They could probably do a greater job at retention if all players could enjoy the entire game... right now, they can enjoy up to that end-game, that takes all of a month to get to, then, they smash their heads against a brick wall composed of insanely rare equipment farms, the guild vendor system, dungeon/trial difficulties that scale like a cliff, etc.

The game goes from easy as can be difficulty level of 1-10, then in the space of no time at all, goes to 100, then to a million... and those players at that end-game, that can handle it (due to having played a long time and got in when it was a smooth transition, or had some help getting through from friends who were there, etc) blame the complaints (if the players about to quit even bother) on, "Oh, you just want stuff handed to you!"

I think they could do a lot with this game, and make a lot more money (because if the casuals stick around longer, they spend more money, and casuals way outnumber the elites... out of a current pop of 1 million, probably 850K are casuals)

Totally agree with you.

I am not saying that this game has more grind than WoW, but each patch they make, is getting close to it.

Take dungeons and veteran dungeons for example. They let you start queueing for Vet Dungs when you hit 160, but you get insta kick because you are "Low lv" since you get paired with guys that are already beyond level 700/800. And you are like "Oh, thanks Zos for keep me waiting 30 mins to find a party so I get insta kicked, and now I have to wait 15 min to start queuing again".

And even if you grind the sets and have the "perfect" build, you still need to grind all the way up to lv >720 to really enjoy the end game features. And by the time you get there, you probably have killed all your joy on this game.

For me, for instanse, is ultra complicated. Because I realy like this game. The mechanics and all, but I don't find any of the current class enjoyable. Therefore, its realy hard to lv up a char for me, because I get bored because of the skills that are "given" to me.

That's why I agree with you when you speak on "more freedom". Because, so far, we only have the "ilusion" of freedom. But the actualy freedom of choice that we have is to play exactly as Zos wants and be "good" or play as you want and get f*#$d

They could do a great deal on the 'freedom' front by allowing players to sub out any one skill tree for any other skill tree (like if your DK just did not like Earthen Heart, he could sub it out for Dawn's Wrath). It would keep the classes fairly straightforward and manageable, while allowing for a bit of freedom in creating new builds.

CaptainBeerDude

SilverIce58 wrote: »

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

No necro class. Release the Dragonborn. It could utilise shouts to fill out enough skills to be an entire class.
Necromancy could easily fit as a world skill line, and it would give necromancers flavour based on the initial class archetype.

No. If you want to play as a dragonborn, go play skyrim.

I could say the same thing about necromancers...

SilverIce58

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

No necro class. Release the Dragonborn. It could utilise shouts to fill out enough skills to be an entire class.
Necromancy could easily fit as a world skill line, and it would give necromancers flavour based on the initial class archetype.

No. If you want to play as a dragonborn, go play skyrim.

I could say the same thing about necromancers...

I'm not campaigning for necromancers to be a class so I could also say the same thing about necromancers @CaptainBeerDude

DoctorESO

ForsakenSin wrote: »

This meme would've been so much better if "being" was spelled correctly.

Avalon

DoctorESO wrote: »

ForsakenSin wrote: »

This meme would've been so much better if "being" was spelled correctly.

What about "feels"??? The whole thing is painful to anyone who takes their grammar, spelling, and punctuation even remotely seriously!

CaptainBeerDude

SilverIce58 wrote: »

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

No necro class. Release the Dragonborn. It could utilise shouts to fill out enough skills to be an entire class.
Necromancy could easily fit as a world skill line, and it would give necromancers flavour based on the initial class archetype.

No. If you want to play as a dragonborn, go play skyrim.

I could say the same thing about necromancers...

I'm not campaigning for necromancers to be a class so I could also say the same thing about necromancers @CaptainBeerDude

There is just as much lore support for a Dragonborn class as there is for a necromancer class @SilverIce58 . Isn’t the whole reason for the 3 army war because a legitimate Dragonborn heir couldn’t be found after the death of the last emperor. Just sayin.

TheShadowScout

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

Isn’t the whole reason for the 3 army war because a legitimate Dragonborn heir couldn’t be found after the death of the last emperor. Just sayin.

Truth.
A dragonborn would be a huge thing at this point, and an end to all troubles... plop them on the ruby throne if only as figurehead, light the dragonfires, daedra incursions go bye-bye, people don't get eaten by visitors from oblivion anyhore...
...but we -know- from the lore that won't happen until Talos comes around in a couple centuries down the timeline. So...

In this era, a vestige taking up necromancy would be possible. Iffy, yes, but possible. A dragonborn... not really.

SilverIce58

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

No necro class. Release the Dragonborn. It could utilise shouts to fill out enough skills to be an entire class.
Necromancy could easily fit as a world skill line, and it would give necromancers flavour based on the initial class archetype.

No. If you want to play as a dragonborn, go play skyrim.

I could say the same thing about necromancers...

I'm not campaigning for necromancers to be a class so I could also say the same thing about necromancers @CaptainBeerDude

There is just as much lore support for a Dragonborn class as there is for a necromancer class @SilverIce58 . Isn’t the whole reason for the 3 army war because a legitimate Dragonborn heir couldn’t be found after the death of the last emperor. Just sayin.

True and false. True that the only way we can have an Emperor is that if they're a dragonborn, but false in that it should be any of us. Tiber Septim (in a few centuries) will be there to end the Interregnum, and start the Septim Empire. The whole reason that none of us are dragonborn is that none of us have a legitimate claim to the throne. It also wouldn't make sense for a dragonborn (whose soul needs to be intact in the first place) to be a vestige.

DoctorESO

Avalon wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

ForsakenSin wrote: »

This meme would've been so much better if "being" was spelled correctly.

What about "feels"??? The whole thing is painful to anyone who takes their grammar, spelling, and punctuation even remotely seriously!

Oh, I missed that. Guess I was too focused on the first error. Yeah - that, too!

CaptainBeerDude

SilverIce58 wrote: »

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

No necro class. Release the Dragonborn. It could utilise shouts to fill out enough skills to be an entire class.
Necromancy could easily fit as a world skill line, and it would give necromancers flavour based on the initial class archetype.

No. If you want to play as a dragonborn, go play skyrim.

I could say the same thing about necromancers...

I'm not campaigning for necromancers to be a class so I could also say the same thing about necromancers @CaptainBeerDude

There is just as much lore support for a Dragonborn class as there is for a necromancer class @SilverIce58 . Isn’t the whole reason for the 3 army war because a legitimate Dragonborn heir couldn’t be found after the death of the last emperor. Just sayin.

True and false. True that the only way we can have an Emperor is that if they're a dragonborn, but false in that it should be any of us. Tiber Septim (in a few centuries) will be there to end the Interregnum, and start the Septim Empire. The whole reason that none of us are dragonborn is that none of us have a legitimate claim to the throne. It also wouldn't make sense for a dragonborn (whose soul needs to be intact in the first place) to be a vestige.

You are assuming that all Dragonborn people became emperor. And why wouldn’t Molag Bal want to harvest the most powerful souls possible?

While the Empire requires a Dragonborn on the Ruby Throne to light the Dragonfires, there were also other Dragonborn who never got the opportunity due to circumstances of birth.

srnekro

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

No necro class. Release the Dragonborn. It could utilise shouts to fill out enough skills to be an entire class.
Necromancy could easily fit as a world skill line, and it would give necromancers flavour based on the initial class archetype.

No. If you want to play as a dragonborn, go play skyrim.

I could say the same thing about necromancers...

I'm not campaigning for necromancers to be a class so I could also say the same thing about necromancers @CaptainBeerDude

There is just as much lore support for a Dragonborn class as there is for a necromancer class @SilverIce58 . Isn’t the whole reason for the 3 army war because a legitimate Dragonborn heir couldn’t be found after the death of the last emperor. Just sayin.

Yes, but isn't the whole point of being a dragonborn to me extremely rare? Like unique or something? It wouldn't be unique if you saw thousands of dragonborn running around and such. While Necromancy is a craft and everyone can learn. The experts of it, are called Necromancers since they can do more than simply raise an undead.

TheShadowScout

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

While the Empire requires a Dragonborn on the Ruby Throne to light the Dragonfires, there were also other Dragonborn who never got the opportunity due to circumstances of birth.

True enough.

Though a tthis time, everyone -desperately- wants a dragonborn, because they could relight the dragonfires and close the door to oblivion, so if one popped up... they would grab them and plop them on the ruby throne to do just that. And since we know that won't happen until Talos, well...

...we can assume that while people with alessias blood do exist, but none of them are recognized as dragonborn, and won#t be until Tiber Septim.
(Would make a nifty questline tho, save the bloodline from daedric assassins so that someday in the future a new dragonborn may rise to power... )

srnekro wrote: »

Yes, but isn't the whole point of being a dragonborn to me extremely rare? Like unique or something? It wouldn't be unique if you saw thousands of dragonborn running around and such. While Necromancy is a craft and everyone can learn. The experts of it, are called Necromancers since they can do more than simply raise an undead.

Yup.
Dragonborn do exist, even in this time, but are rare, and if one was to become known, they would be snatched up by the powers that be and become emperor, or get killed trying. Not quite suitable for player characters in this story...

Necromancers tho are found under every stone in this era, much like worms... And while still not quite suitable for the mainstory, would make an decent post-mainstory DLC guild line like the psijic order (though definitely mutually exclusive with that one!)

Rawkan

We don't need another pet class.

srnekro

Rawkan wrote: »

We don't need another pet class.

I know I know, but hear me out. Necros could have skills that could be morph to temporary pets OR permanent pets. For instance, we could have a morph of a skill that let us raise a couple or three skeletons warriors to fight for us for 10(or more, or less) seconds or charge or something, or raise a single skeleton warriors that would remain by your side.

It's a thought, just a thought though.

Anyway, despite undead pets, Necros have other weapons at their disposal. With a lot of dark, death, oblivion magic and such.