That's a bad analogy.
You do not have to throw rubbish on street to succeed at crossing it.
You do have to use a destro pain train if you want to succeed at beating other groups doing the same.
I disagree. If you hate something, call it "brainless" etc and think that it shouldn't even exist you don't go and contribute to that just because "oh I have to do it to be competitive". No one forces you to do it and there are actually tons of really good and competitive players that never liked or supported that play style and still they play the game how they want and are competitive without coming to forums constantly trash talking about it. And yes these players are also fighting other guilds and even doing GVG's.Idc much that some people don't like the style of play that I do. Personally I've never asked for a nerf to something just because I'm not participating in it "anymore". I actually respect people that never liked bomb groups and have never been participating in them. But what I find hilarious (and it's what I said in my first comment) is people like @Joy_Division that used to play in bomb groups now saying that this style "must go" as soon as their guild quit the gameSomeone may need thicker skin if they think someone saying the pain trains look like bots is an awful insult that demands this much QQ. I pray that this person is never actually in TS with me as I jokingly say far worse.I mean if you or him claims he did it a lot in the past it shouldn't be so difficult to do either, right? Also the point was about him posting in the same "insulting" manner about group play when he was in VE not the fact that he "post where he says he is in VE".are you wanting him to dig up a post where he says he is in VE and that VE plays like bots?Now you got it!At the end of the day.....LESS QQ MOAR PEW PEW.So I hope your friends that constantly post things like "ooooh destro zerg balls are such laaaame, damn bots following the crown" in almost every single post follow this advice too.
Everyone has right to be critical of everything. That's why I said that in my opinion person that used to zerg in 24 man bomb group for 3 years is nothing more than a hypocrite if he comes on forum and constantly posting some QQ about this style of play. No one forces this person to do so, if he would really hate it as much as how he describes it and really think that this style shouldn't be allowed in game anymore he wouldn't participate in this style (I actually saw him doing it even now) and also contribute to it. I'll repeat: if you don't like rubbish on your street you don't go out and constantly empty your bag there than shout loudly about how bad it is to do so.usmcjdking wrote: »Someone has no right to be critical of something because they have partaken in it?
Now the question is: Why do we consider kodi 1v4ing people fine but a raid 12v50ing as broken? There hardly is a difference.
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: ».Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Wow.
You're doing it wrong it's not Wow...........it's WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW. I mean Steve coined it so at least do it properly when addressing him with it.
Ill wait for a reply rather than a deflection thanks for trying though.
Oh I wasn't deflecting......I was informing you of your error!
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »For example, @Derra has never liked ball groups and ball group play, I disagree with his views but I respect him for the fact that he hasn't participated in it and held onto his views.
I did join ZS afternoon groups in the past weeks on a couple of occasions - i don´t think there were ever more than 12 people though.
Imo 12 people would be the perfect groupsize for cyro - it´s still enjoyable for me with that amount of people (though personally prefer ~8).
Then you are a hypocrite
asneakybanana wrote: »
Now the question is: Why do we consider kodi 1v4ing people fine but a raid 12v50ing as broken? There hardly is a difference.
Actually there is a huge difference. Knowing that ur skill matters, doing the best u can but still losing to someone because he is simply better and u got outplayed is one thing. Thats totally acceptable. You can get better, put on better gear as well and take him on again. But feeling helpless and not being able to do absolutely anything not because u are not good enough but because of stupid mechanics unless u bring more numbers to use those same stupid mechanics is a very different story.
I mean what's the difference between getting better, wearing better gear and learning to not get outplayed again vs. one person or vs 12-16? You could get a 12-16 man group together and get coordinated and wear the proper gear setups and you can beat the organized groups and stop getting out played. Instead of just making yourself better it's making your group better though. It's your choice to play solo instead of with an organized group.
You are not getting outplayed by those groups. That is literally the point. Im sorry but spamming one button isnt exactly what i would call "outplay" people.
You are not making urself or ur group better. You are just making ur group bigger and abuse the same stupid mechanics they do to be able to face them.
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy has been making posts on this stuff for years while running with VE. It's not his fault you never bothered to read them.
Joy might have been posting thousands of comments for years. But don't compare some random suggestions and comments that dedicated to actual bugs and issues of the game (some of them were actually good) to constant recent insults against organized group game play. Here are some examples from just this thread:Joy_Division wrote: »strict ball-group stack on crown group that looks and play like bots and a loose group of 24 players who don't run nearly as tight and don't look like ducklings following their mother.Joy_Division wrote: »The organized bot like pain trainsJoy_Division wrote: »people such as yourself may appreciate stack-on-crown organized play and no matter how much skill it takes to play well, a lot of people who play this game can't stand that bot like style.Joy_Division wrote: »Perceptions matter; these ball-groups don't seem to have any intricate strategy other than just blobbing together and brute forcing things with AoE skills.Joy_Division wrote: »me as someone who used to ball-group with the best of them, I don't want to see them.Joy_Division wrote: »ball-group is just going to have 1 member mindless spamming rapids to make them immune to something that counters - effectively - the rest of us peons and puga? <...> to have one person whose sole function is just to spam one button that makes the entire group immune to a fundamental mechanics of roots and snares the rest of us have to suffer and make allowances in our builds. Purge-bot, rapids monkey, it just seems mindless. It's why people don't like it.Joy_Division wrote: »the basic mechanics that have always been and still are super effect: stack on crown and overwhelm with mass coordinated PBAoEs. The means and mechanics have changed in the delivery of those PBAoEs, yet it still resembles just a bunch of bots following the same path. It's that same old stack-on-crown pain train that I believe is the source of the many frustrations with "destro-bomb groups."Joy_Division wrote: »it still looks like a bunch bots running around spamming PBAoE death.
What I am typing is not hard to understand. If you don't like people constantly throwing rubbish on your street you don't go there throwing more rubbish just because "other people do it" and then stand in the middle of the road just after you emptied your bag shouting "OMG this is so baaaad, no one should do it!". You just simply don't do it yourself.
I am not breaking any littering laws or damaging the environment we live as in your misguided analogy.
This is a game. We are competitors. It's is ZoS's responsibility to establish the rules and the mechanics. I am not going to gimp myself simply because I find a style of play not very interesting. I am allowed to compete using legal and commonly practiced tactics while asking ZoS to make changes and reforms in order to make the game better. This does not make me a hypocrite. It makes me someone who plays and wants the game to improve.
Its an analogy not an analogue to your actions. The point, had you chosen to understand it (although I imagine you did and are just trying to deflect) was that you were happy (maybe you complained maybe you didn't havent seen any quotes of yours back then) with running in such "zerg bot balls" back when you had a group to do it with.
Since you no longer have one you have started a diatribe of complaints against them. That is what makes you a hypocrite, not the fact necessarily that you once played in them, although it is a factor, but now you no longer have the option you have stepped up your attacks on that style to try and get it removed.
For example, @Derra has never liked ball groups and ball group play, I disagree with his views but I respect him for the fact that he hasn't participated in it and held onto his views.
Perhaps an analogy which might better suit your views is someone who used to gank saying ganking should be removed and bashing on it right when they no longer have an effective gank build.
Feel free to quote some of your old posts back when VE was in its hayday of you calling their style "bots" and "mindless/skill less" and perhaps I'll change my views.
That's an incredibly myopic view.
Someone has no right to be critical of something because they have partaken in it? He has every right to be critical of whatever he wants and his opinion is no more or less valuable than yours in the context of this thread lol. I'm sorry but trying to dismiss a post because of something entirely unrelated to the argument at hand is not a good way to get your point across.
There is no analogy necessary for Joy's thesis posts because it's very clear what he's doing. No one is confused as to what he has said and the context supporting his current opinion.
You have completely failed to grasp the clear point which was made in the post:
I'll try and make it easy for you:Since you no longer have one (Joy's old '24m' group) you have started a diatribe of complaints against them. That is what makes you a hypocrite, not the fact necessarily that you once played in them, although it is a factor, but now you no longer have the option you have stepped up your attacks on that style to try and get it removed.
The trouble is you’re ignoring literally years of posts from Joy on the subject. There’s years of NA history both in game and on the forums. You’ve come in at the tail end of it and talk like none of it happened.
Wow. I didnt think it was possible to still not understand the point being made.
Ok.
Joy has made many posts.
The content of joys post have changed from game suggestions and improvement posts to derogatory group comments since VE disbanded.
Are you still with me?
Quote any of these mirade of posts you are referencing refuting this please I'd love to be proven wrong.
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: ».Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Wow.
You're doing it wrong it's not Wow...........it's WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW. I mean Steve coined it so at least do it properly when addressing him with it.
Ill wait for a reply rather than a deflection thanks for trying though.
Oh I wasn't deflecting......I was informing you of your error!
Still waiting
asneakybanana wrote: »asneakybanana wrote: »
Now the question is: Why do we consider kodi 1v4ing people fine but a raid 12v50ing as broken? There hardly is a difference.
Actually there is a huge difference. Knowing that ur skill matters, doing the best u can but still losing to someone because he is simply better and u got outplayed is one thing. Thats totally acceptable. You can get better, put on better gear as well and take him on again. But feeling helpless and not being able to do absolutely anything not because u are not good enough but because of stupid mechanics unless u bring more numbers to use those same stupid mechanics is a very different story.
I mean what's the difference between getting better, wearing better gear and learning to not get outplayed again vs. one person or vs 12-16? You could get a 12-16 man group together and get coordinated and wear the proper gear setups and you can beat the organized groups and stop getting out played. Instead of just making yourself better it's making your group better though. It's your choice to play solo instead of with an organized group.
You are not getting outplayed by those groups. That is literally the point. Im sorry but spamming one button isnt exactly what i would call "outplay" people.
You are not making urself or ur group better. You are just making ur group bigger and abuse the same stupid mechanics they do to be able to face them.
If you just wanted to make yourself bigger why not just run like 50+ ND just light attack? Organized groups is about taking x number of people, usually 12 or 14 and designing the best possible group around that and then any 2 or 4 extras bringing it to 16 can be a flex role to help the group. If you ran a 12 man that ran a group comp and theory crafted the way these groups do you could make a group that could be competitive rather than being outplayed. As has been said many times, the problem with organized groups right now is the lack of them and therefore the lack of things to counter the remaining organized groups. If you want to counter a 1vx player you learn the skills to 1vx and play to a similar level as them, therefore if you want to counter an organized group you need to learn the skills to counter an organized group. There honestly needs to be more organized groups in cyro to make it a healthier place this way groups.like drac and Fantasia have a true counter.
Drummerx04 wrote: »
- If I call out, "Drac raid in Ash" there may not be a group that can realistically fight them with near even numbers, so eventually most of the faction has to respond which leaves every other keep open for PvDoor
Vilestride wrote: »Drummerx04 wrote: »
- If I call out, "Drac raid in Ash" there may not be a group that can realistically fight them with near even numbers, so eventually most of the faction has to respond which leaves every other keep open for PvDoor
I simply have no sympathy for this feeling of helplessness that seems to be infectious. There is not a lack of guilds with the potential to contest an ash farm such as in the example you have given (I can tell you right now if fantasia show up to that fight it's going to be anything but a casual faction farm for the day). There is however a lack of guilds willing to take the steps required to do so. There are plenty of equal or larger organised raids running when ours does on a daily basis, many of who show up at said farms. If those guilds choose not to play the meta or run optimised builds because they don't like it then fine, whatever, play any build you want, power to you, I am glad you are sticking it to the meta man and pursuing your dreams as a free citizen of Tamriel.
But if that's case, then sorry, those guilds just don't get to expect to be able to win. ZoS will change the meta re-actively based on forum QQ time after time but each time the same guilds are going to either accept the meta and be competitive, or not, and continue to loose these fights, it's that simple.
I don't expect even the best players in the game to beat kodi 1v1 if they are running some smugglers and Jailbreak snowflake stamblade build. If the guilds who ARE active want to prevent their respective factions from experiencing this helplessness then they have to be willing to adapt their gameplay, whether they like it or not.
Until then I hope everyone is having as much fun as us out there. I for one would like to see the changes I have previously mentioned but overall I am loving it.
The first ball group I encountered was Nexus. I thought they were a dance troupe. I got served.usmcjdking wrote: »I prefer the term professional PVP conga line.
The first ball group I encountered was Nexus. I thought they were a dance troupe. I got served.usmcjdking wrote: »I prefer the term professional PVP conga line.
It's pretty common in ESO PVP for players to do things they do not enjoy being on the other side of or preach against. Sometimes without realizing it.
I don't really think Joy is truly a hypocrite, but come on, surely people can appreciate the humor of such damning indictments of ball groups coming from a member of VE.
An organised group can also be threatened by other organised groups. The problem with this argument imo is that it questions the general existence of groups of any type. If I make a 24 man pug group even without TS it will be hard for individual players to take it down. Should grouping be removed from the game?Drummerx04 wrote: »Kodi can be stopped or seriously slowed down or threatened by any number of individual players who can be logged on at any time during the day.
Any organised group will always pose a threat.Any of those players will be a threat to Kodi every time they meet.
How is this different if a group defeats 4 other groups at the same time? They are obviously bad and won't feel great about themselve. Not sure what you try to get to with this argument tho, are you suggesting the game should prevent such a situation to happen to not make players feel bad?In the case of all 4 players being bad, that's 4 people who probably don't feel great about themselves.
To be quite honest, it's not really true that groups are immune to these things. Meteor rollback for example is a huge problem for groups, negates can be very dangerous, sieges are still a threat, massive snares can be a problem too if it's for an extended duration so your Maneuver build . Sure, a good group will not come to a keep and die to either of these things in 10 seconds every time. But kodi will also not start a fight and instantly die to a CC - at least not more often than a group will.Kodi can be affected by CC, resource drains, maybe snares for a short time (until forward momentum kicks back on), etc. [...] We've gone over everything an optimized guild group is immune to... which to recap -- roots, snares, CC, negates, all dots and poisons, etc, so I won't go over that in detail again.
So if kodi would play during the night when there is only 5 other players that he can kill easily are playing, would you say that his build should get nerfed so that they can kill him? If not, at what amount of players do you think the breakpoint is?Kodi cannot overwhelm most of a faction and hold a keep for 30+ minutes. At most he'll take a resource or two by himself.
What if there is no such one or two people that can kill kodi? I mean your whole argumentation is based on the assumption that there is no other groups playing the game.I can call out, "Kodi at chal farm" and the one or two people needed to actually kill him can go get him. [...] If I call out, "Drac raid in Ash" there may not be a group that can realistically fight them with near even numbers, so eventually most of the faction has to respond which leaves every other keep open for PvDoor
If I recall correctly, that was a bug and, IMO, ball groups were more relevant then than they are now. Regardless if that is true, it doesn't change the fact that a 70% snare that can't be countered would impact fights of all types, not just those involving blobs.Snares that can't be removed would have the potential to ruin all kinds of fights, not just those involving large ball groups. No thank you. Though, it is very Wrobel-like, so now I'm scared.Snares that can't be removed would have the potential to ruin all kinds of fights, not just those involving large ball groups. No thank you. Though, it is very Wrobel-like, so now I'm scared.
A negative effect that actually does something instead of being rendered irrelevant by instant removal. The horror.
Another combat function that can't be countered would be horrible, yes. We would see such siege deployed everywhere. I can envision them ruining a lot of good fights that don't involve ball groups.
Are you aware that's how Oil Catapult actually worked at one point?
It applied a 70% unmovable snare on the targets it hit.
Know what happened?
People stopped zerg balling
Most players I know want to be snared less often, not more often. To me, this is a solution that throws the baby out with the bathwater.
People stopped zerg balling
Sure they did. I mean everyday in Cyrodiil prior to the oil catapult change was solo's spread out across the field evenly 8m apart from the next because of the fear of the snare. Once that change happened Cyrodiil took possibly the hardest hit since the dark days of zero cost bats and launch DK's. But what about DAoC? I mean I'm unsure how I should feel since you haven't mentioned DAoC at all lately. @Ghost-Shot who is this even?
Vilestride wrote: »8 manning against PUGs in DAoC was easier than playing DK in 1.1. Don't know why DAoC is our gold standard right now.
Vilestride wrote: »Drummerx04 wrote: »
- If I call out, "Drac raid in Ash" there may not be a group that can realistically fight them with near even numbers, so eventually most of the faction has to respond which leaves every other keep open for PvDoor
I simply have no sympathy for this feeling of helplessness that seems to be infectious. There is not a lack of guilds with the potential to contest an ash farm such as in the example you have given (I can tell you right now if fantasia show up to that fight it's going to be anything but a casual faction farm for the day). There is however a lack of guilds willing to take the steps required to do so. There are plenty of equal or larger organised raids running when ours does on a daily basis, many of who show up at said farms. If those guilds choose not to play the meta or run optimised builds because they don't like it then fine, whatever, play any build you want, power to you, I am glad you are sticking it to the meta man and pursuing your dreams as a free citizen of Tamriel.
But if that's case, then sorry, those guilds just don't get to expect to be able to win. ZoS will change the meta re-actively based on forum QQ time after time but each time the same guilds are going to either accept the meta and be competitive, or not, and continue to loose these fights, it's that simple.
I don't expect even the best players in the game to beat kodi 1v1 if they are running some smugglers and Jailbreak snowflake stamblade build. If the guilds who ARE active want to prevent their respective factions from experiencing this helplessness then they have to be willing to adapt their gameplay, whether they like it or not.
Until then I hope everyone is having as much fun as us out there. I for one would like to see the changes I have previously mentioned but overall I am loving it.
Look at the game though. How many "new guild" have become competitive?
Your guild is a conglomeration of the remnants of top end EP, DC and AD guilds. Fantasia is a conglomeration of leftover high end DC and AD players. I don't know if Invictus still runs strong, but they're the same thing: a mix of old GoS players and players from other high end guilds.
When was the last time a group became competitive with the top ESO guilds without top ESO players on their roster? Hell, VE recruited heavily from zone but we still had a lengthy list of top end players on our roster.
Vilestride wrote: »Drummerx04 wrote: »
- If I call out, "Drac raid in Ash" there may not be a group that can realistically fight them with near even numbers, so eventually most of the faction has to respond which leaves every other keep open for PvDoor
I simply have no sympathy for this feeling of helplessness that seems to be infectious. There is not a lack of guilds with the potential to contest an ash farm such as in the example you have given (I can tell you right now if fantasia show up to that fight it's going to be anything but a casual faction farm for the day). There is however a lack of guilds willing to take the steps required to do so. There are plenty of equal or larger organised raids running when ours does on a daily basis, many of who show up at said farms. If those guilds choose not to play the meta or run optimised builds because they don't like it then fine, whatever, play any build you want, power to you, I am glad you are sticking it to the meta man and pursuing your dreams as a free citizen of Tamriel.
But if that's case, then sorry, those guilds just don't get to expect to be able to win. ZoS will change the meta re-actively based on forum QQ time after time but each time the same guilds are going to either accept the meta and be competitive, or not, and continue to loose these fights, it's that simple.
I don't expect even the best players in the game to beat kodi 1v1 if they are running some smugglers and Jailbreak snowflake stamblade build. If the guilds who ARE active want to prevent their respective factions from experiencing this helplessness then they have to be willing to adapt their gameplay, whether they like it or not.
Until then I hope everyone is having as much fun as us out there. I for one would like to see the changes I have previously mentioned but overall I am loving it.
Look at the game though. How many "new guild" have become competitive?
Your guild is a conglomeration of the remnants of top end EP, DC and AD guilds. Fantasia is a conglomeration of leftover high end DC and AD players. I don't know if Invictus still runs strong, but they're the same thing: a mix of old GoS players and players from other high end guilds.
When was the last time a group became competitive with the top ESO guilds without top ESO players on their roster? Hell, VE recruited heavily from zone but we still had a lengthy list of top end players on our roster.
Vilestride wrote: »Vilestride wrote: »Drummerx04 wrote: »
- If I call out, "Drac raid in Ash" there may not be a group that can realistically fight them with near even numbers, so eventually most of the faction has to respond which leaves every other keep open for PvDoor
I simply have no sympathy for this feeling of helplessness that seems to be infectious. There is not a lack of guilds with the potential to contest an ash farm such as in the example you have given (I can tell you right now if fantasia show up to that fight it's going to be anything but a casual faction farm for the day). There is however a lack of guilds willing to take the steps required to do so. There are plenty of equal or larger organised raids running when ours does on a daily basis, many of who show up at said farms. If those guilds choose not to play the meta or run optimised builds because they don't like it then fine, whatever, play any build you want, power to you, I am glad you are sticking it to the meta man and pursuing your dreams as a free citizen of Tamriel.
But if that's case, then sorry, those guilds just don't get to expect to be able to win. ZoS will change the meta re-actively based on forum QQ time after time but each time the same guilds are going to either accept the meta and be competitive, or not, and continue to loose these fights, it's that simple.
I don't expect even the best players in the game to beat kodi 1v1 if they are running some smugglers and Jailbreak snowflake stamblade build. If the guilds who ARE active want to prevent their respective factions from experiencing this helplessness then they have to be willing to adapt their gameplay, whether they like it or not.
Until then I hope everyone is having as much fun as us out there. I for one would like to see the changes I have previously mentioned but overall I am loving it.
Look at the game though. How many "new guild" have become competitive?
Your guild is a conglomeration of the remnants of top end EP, DC and AD guilds. Fantasia is a conglomeration of leftover high end DC and AD players. I don't know if Invictus still runs strong, but they're the same thing: a mix of old GoS players and players from other high end guilds.
When was the last time a group became competitive with the top ESO guilds without top ESO players on their roster? Hell, VE recruited heavily from zone but we still had a lengthy list of top end players on our roster.
Experience is obviously a massive factor, but are saying it shouldn't be? The only thing that can give experience is practice and game-time. Are you suggesting we make changes to balance and game mechanics to compensate for experience? if so I would argue that is a very dangerous proposition.
However, don't take that statement the wrong way, I have some ideas and absolutely do want to see changes made to offer a sense of competitive incentive that would create an environment where more experienced players were more exclusively contested by other experienced players and subsequently leaving lesser experienced ones to contest one another. But this is more akin to matchmaking than combat or game-play balance.
And all this being said I truly do see many guilds getting better on a daily basis, especially the ones I know to be actively self -analysing with the intent of self -improvement. The others not so much but again, I wouldn't expect it.
Most groups didn't 8 man against pug? It was called 8v8 for a reason. You're talking about a game where the community would blacklist you and double team the hell out of you if you ran 9 vs 8. Fighting a bunch of pugs was not what 8 mans were looking for in that game.
Hell I can recall a running joke in our Vent back in the day where the group leader said "Guys there's nothing out lets log" after we just had 2 8v8 fights in the span of 10 minutes. If we couldn't find another 8 man most would want to log off and do something else....anyone saying "Lets go screw over the solos on a bridge" would be laughed at.
But you are right, Killing pugs in DAOC was super easy as an 8 man cause not all classes having heals....Now if you're talking about a Pug zerg that would be more based on your Group Comp and Realm. Some Group comps were designed for blowing up giant zergs while others were designed more for stomping other 8 mans.
This touches on what I've ranted about quite often. Old school gaming ethics which, IMO, were inherited from rl organized competitive environments and are almost completely lacking in ESO PVP.
I think groups of all types need to be more restrained when it comes to fighting players they outclass. If group of any size is crushing everything in its path and impossible from the competition to remove from a location, it's time to find a better fight or change something -- like group size or builds -- to something that's more appropriate to your current competitors.
Why? Because good sportsmanship promotes growth while continuing to dominate your competition will encourage them to do something else.
its possible in ESO..just no one really wants to do it.
@Xsorus
You should really start to seperate game mechanics and player mentality. It's great if people in DAOC were looking 8v8 fights but that's a community thing and limiting group size in ESO would not lead to any real changes. Groups might even just run two 8 man groups next to each other if that's need to take on the zergs during primetime lag. I think limiting to 12 people would be a good change but it would still not solve anything.
Your suggestion to make Oil Catapult snare uncounterable raises the question how you imagine a group taking a keep after this change. It's easy to break "balling" up but I fail to see how this will improve the gameplay. Worst case scenario it will funnel fights even more to faction stacking if people want to take keeps, otherwise groups will farm on keep resources by flagging the keep from the tower forcing defenders to come outside. However it will certainly not help new groups to form as those groups would just fail all the time if they try to evolve from being faction-stacking zerglings.
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy has been making posts on this stuff for years while running with VE. It's not his fault you never bothered to read them.
Joy might have been posting thousands of comments for years. But don't compare some random suggestions and comments that dedicated to actual bugs and issues of the game (some of them were actually good) to constant recent insults against organized group game play. Here are some examples from just this thread:Joy_Division wrote: »strict ball-group stack on crown group that looks and play like bots and a loose group of 24 players who don't run nearly as tight and don't look like ducklings following their mother.Joy_Division wrote: »The organized bot like pain trainsJoy_Division wrote: »people such as yourself may appreciate stack-on-crown organized play and no matter how much skill it takes to play well, a lot of people who play this game can't stand that bot like style.Joy_Division wrote: »Perceptions matter; these ball-groups don't seem to have any intricate strategy other than just blobbing together and brute forcing things with AoE skills.Joy_Division wrote: »me as someone who used to ball-group with the best of them, I don't want to see them.Joy_Division wrote: »ball-group is just going to have 1 member mindless spamming rapids to make them immune to something that counters - effectively - the rest of us peons and puga? <...> to have one person whose sole function is just to spam one button that makes the entire group immune to a fundamental mechanics of roots and snares the rest of us have to suffer and make allowances in our builds. Purge-bot, rapids monkey, it just seems mindless. It's why people don't like it.Joy_Division wrote: »the basic mechanics that have always been and still are super effect: stack on crown and overwhelm with mass coordinated PBAoEs. The means and mechanics have changed in the delivery of those PBAoEs, yet it still resembles just a bunch of bots following the same path. It's that same old stack-on-crown pain train that I believe is the source of the many frustrations with "destro-bomb groups."Joy_Division wrote: »it still looks like a bunch bots running around spamming PBAoE death.
What I am typing is not hard to understand. If you don't like people constantly throwing rubbish on your street you don't go there throwing more rubbish just because "other people do it" and then stand in the middle of the road just after you emptied your bag shouting "OMG this is so baaaad, no one should do it!". You just simply don't do it yourself.
I am not breaking any littering laws or damaging the environment we live as in your misguided analogy.
This is a game. We are competitors. It's is ZoS's responsibility to establish the rules and the mechanics. I am not going to gimp myself simply because I find a style of play not very interesting. I am allowed to compete using legal and commonly practiced tactics while asking ZoS to make changes and reforms in order to make the game better. This does not make me a hypocrite. It makes me someone who plays and wants the game to improve.
Its an analogy not an analogue to your actions. The point, had you chosen to understand it (although I imagine you did and are just trying to deflect) was that you were happy (maybe you complained maybe you didn't havent seen any quotes of yours back then) with running in such "zerg bot balls" back when you had a group to do it with.
Since you no longer have one you have started a diatribe of complaints against them. That is what makes you a hypocrite, not the fact necessarily that you once played in them, although it is a factor, but now you no longer have the option you have stepped up your attacks on that style to try and get it removed.
For example, @Derra has never liked ball groups and ball group play, I disagree with his views but I respect him for the fact that he hasn't participated in it and held onto his views.
Perhaps an analogy which might better suit your views is someone who used to gank saying ganking should be removed and bashing on it right when they no longer have an effective gank build.
Feel free to quote some of your old posts back when VE was in its hayday of you calling their style "bots" and "mindless/skill less" and perhaps I'll change my views.
Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Agrippa is not wrong, though. The game was cast as a rebirth of DAOC, three faction war and all. PvP was heavily promoted.
Then, of course, the game launched.
The hints of DAoC that are still here are the only reason I keep sticking around.
Should Camelot Unchained ever actually launch, or maybe even Crowfall, my account is very likely to be set inactive.
But to elaborate on my 'fraction of a fraction'.
Even on a night where Vivec is 3 faction locked during prime time (which is a smaller and smaller window of time lately), then that's 360 total players PVPing. All the other servers are typically 1 bar aside from Kyne which is 2 bars for each faction on average. That's 180 players for Kyne and maybe 50 for the rest. Add another 50 in queue for Vivec and you have 640 concurrent players that are engaged in AvAvA pvp for Cyodiil in one form or another for the PC NA megaserver.
Double that number to include the Euro totals. 1280 players concurrent.
Steam shows 13,378 players concurrent as of this very moment I write this for ESO. Then there are going to be the non-steam users (I don't have my account set up through steam, I run it off the good ol' ESO launcher). I have no way to guesstimate that number, but let's give them another 5,000 concurrent for that.
So out of the 18-20K concurrent players they have, less than 10% are engaged in Cyrodiil or waiting to get into Cyrodiil at any time. And that number's being generous if there are lot more players that are logging in w/o being seen by Steam than I guesstimated.
We are a fraction of the community. And we're being treated like it.
Vilestride wrote: »Maybe we come from different schools of thought but I have never interpreted good sportsmanship to be the gaming equivalent of "go easy on them", personally, I would find this far more disrespectful.
In the context of lesser experienced players good sportsmanship to me would mean treating them as equals, which inherently they are. So long as you respect their effort to challenge you and are willing to offer advice if they seek it after a loss then the figurative good sportsmanship box is ticked.
asneakybanana wrote: »asneakybanana wrote: »
Now the question is: Why do we consider kodi 1v4ing people fine but a raid 12v50ing as broken? There hardly is a difference.
Actually there is a huge difference. Knowing that ur skill matters, doing the best u can but still losing to someone because he is simply better and u got outplayed is one thing. Thats totally acceptable. You can get better, put on better gear as well and take him on again. But feeling helpless and not being able to do absolutely anything not because u are not good enough but because of stupid mechanics unless u bring more numbers to use those same stupid mechanics is a very different story.
I mean what's the difference between getting better, wearing better gear and learning to not get outplayed again vs. one person or vs 12-16? You could get a 12-16 man group together and get coordinated and wear the proper gear setups and you can beat the organized groups and stop getting out played. Instead of just making yourself better it's making your group better though. It's your choice to play solo instead of with an organized group.
You are not getting outplayed by those groups. That is literally the point. Im sorry but spamming one button isnt exactly what i would call "outplay" people.
You are not making urself or ur group better. You are just making ur group bigger and abuse the same stupid mechanics they do to be able to face them.
If you just wanted to make yourself bigger why not just run like 50+ ND just light attack? Organized groups is about taking x number of people, usually 12 or 14 and designing the best possible group around that and then any 2 or 4 extras bringing it to 16 can be a flex role to help the group. If you ran a 12 man that ran a group comp and theory crafted the way these groups do you could make a group that could be competitive rather than being outplayed. As has been said many times, the problem with organized groups right now is the lack of them and therefore the lack of things to counter the remaining organized groups. If you want to counter a 1vx player you learn the skills to 1vx and play to a similar level as them, therefore if you want to counter an organized group you need to learn the skills to counter an organized group. There honestly needs to be more organized groups in cyro to make it a healthier place this way groups.like drac and Fantasia have a true counter.
Also having dedicated roles in a group isn’t bad... but when your zerg reaches a point where you have a dedicated person spamming rapids... you’ve gone full potato.
@Vilestride
Oh you’re a Magblad? Let me equip X set. You’d beat someone in a duel and then they’d put on an anti-you set. Really hated it, never wanted to do that on a guild level.
@Vilestride
TLDR making arena PvP work in an ESO style game is futile.
@Vilestride
Regarding “going easy on people”, it depends on your goals. There was s time when we’d push hard every night, dethrone Haxus, take Arius and then.... nothing. Server just died for the day. Sometimes for a few days. Same with AD if we pushed too aggressively. We decided we valued the health of the campaign more than stomping on people and restricted ourselves. One of our first big falling out on DC with Daniel was when he wanted us to help him murder the server for the night and we refused. Demoralizing the PvP population gets you.... here. A dying population.
Where you draw the line is up to you. I find overarming is very much a thing. So is how you fight guilds that aren’t on your level yet. I never let a guild beat me to make them feel better but there’s a bit of space between letting them win and grinding their face into the concrete. I don’t know how you play or what goes on in there, but I agree with the idea that you can go too hard. We’ve seen it on NA a few times. AD outright killed servers. EP in 1.6 almost destroyed PvP. VE got accused of this during that time period where there weren’t guilds to challenge us. Id say the fewer guilds there are capable of dealing with you when you push it too far, the more careful you gotta be
That's a bad analogy.
You do not have to throw rubbish on street to succeed at crossing it.
You do have to use a destro pain train if you want to succeed at beating other groups doing the same.
I disagree. If you hate something, call it "brainless" etc and think that it shouldn't even exist you don't go and contribute to that just because "oh I have to do it to be competitive". No one forces you to do it and there are actually tons of really good and competitive players that never liked or supported that play style and still they play the game how they want and are competitive without coming to forums constantly trash talking about it. And yes these players are also fighting other guilds and even doing GVG's.Idc much that some people don't like the style of play that I do. Personally I've never asked for a nerf to something just because I'm not participating in it "anymore". I actually respect people that never liked bomb groups and have never been participating in them. But what I find hilarious (and it's what I said in my first comment) is people like @Joy_Division that used to play in bomb groups now saying that this style "must go" as soon as their guild quit the gameSomeone may need thicker skin if they think someone saying the pain trains look like bots is an awful insult that demands this much QQ. I pray that this person is never actually in TS with me as I jokingly say far worse.I mean if you or him claims he did it a lot in the past it shouldn't be so difficult to do either, right? Also the point was about him posting in the same "insulting" manner about group play when he was in VE not the fact that he "post where he says he is in VE".are you wanting him to dig up a post where he says he is in VE and that VE plays like bots?Now you got it!At the end of the day.....LESS QQ MOAR PEW PEW.So I hope your friends that constantly post things like "ooooh destro zerg balls are such laaaame, damn bots following the crown" in almost every single post follow this advice too.
Everyone has right to be critical of everything. That's why I said that in my opinion person that used to zerg in 24 man bomb group for 3 years is nothing more than a hypocrite if he comes on forum and constantly posting some QQ about this style of play. No one forces this person to do so, if he would really hate it as much as how he describes it and really think that this style shouldn't be allowed in game anymore he wouldn't participate in this style (I actually saw him doing it even now) and also contribute to it. I'll repeat: if you don't like rubbish on your street you don't go out and constantly empty your bag there than shout loudly about how bad it is to do so.usmcjdking wrote: »Someone has no right to be critical of something because they have partaken in it?
@Vilestride
Regarding “going easy on people”, it depends on your goals. There was s time when we’d push hard every night, dethrone Haxus, take Arius and then.... nothing. Server just died for the day. Sometimes for a few days. Same with AD if we pushed too aggressively. We decided we valued the health of the campaign more than stomping on people and restricted ourselves. One of our first big falling out on DC with Daniel was when he wanted us to help him murder the server for the night and we refused. Demoralizing the PvP population gets you.... here. A dying population.
Where you draw the line is up to you. I find overarming is very much a thing. So is how you fight guilds that aren’t on your level yet. I never let a guild beat me to make them feel better but there’s a bit of space between letting them win and grinding their face into the concrete. I don’t know how you play or what goes on in there, but I agree with the idea that you can go too hard. We’ve seen it on NA a few times. AD outright killed servers. EP in 1.6 almost destroyed PvP. VE got accused of this during that time period where there weren’t guilds to challenge us. Id say the fewer guilds there are capable of dealing with you when you push it too far, the more careful you gotta be
An organised group can also be threatened by other organised groups. The problem with this argument imo is that it questions the general existence of groups of any type. If I make a 24 man pug group even without TS it will be hard for individual players to take it down. Should grouping be removed from the game?Drummerx04 wrote: »Kodi can be stopped or seriously slowed down or threatened by any number of individual players who can be logged on at any time during the day.Any organised group will always pose a threat.Any of those players will be a threat to Kodi every time they meet.How is this different if a group defeats 4 other groups at the same time? They are obviously bad and won't feel great about themselve. Not sure what you try to get to with this argument tho, are you suggesting the game should prevent such a situation to happen to not make players feel bad?In the case of all 4 players being bad, that's 4 people who probably don't feel great about themselves.To be quite honest, it's not really true that groups are immune to these things. Meteor rollback for example is a huge problem for groups, negates can be very dangerous, sieges are still a threat, massive snares can be a problem too if it's for an extended duration so your Maneuver build . Sure, a good group will not come to a keep and die to either of these things in 10 seconds every time. But kodi will also not start a fight and instantly die to a CC - at least not more often than a group will.Kodi can be affected by CC, resource drains, maybe snares for a short time (until forward momentum kicks back on), etc. [...] We've gone over everything an optimized guild group is immune to... which to recap -- roots, snares, CC, negates, all dots and poisons, etc, so I won't go over that in detail again.So if kodi would play during the night when there is only 5 other players that he can kill easily are playing, would you say that his build should get nerfed so that they can kill him? If not, at what amount of players do you think the breakpoint is?Kodi cannot overwhelm most of a faction and hold a keep for 30+ minutes. At most he'll take a resource or two by himself.
Would you say that the current strength of groups would be a problem if instead of a popcap of ~100 the cap would be at 600? Then a guild couldn't take on the entire faction.What if there is no such one or two people that can kill kodi? I mean your whole argumentation is based on the assumption that there is no other groups playing the game.I can call out, "Kodi at chal farm" and the one or two people needed to actually kill him can go get him. [...] If I call out, "Drac raid in Ash" there may not be a group that can realistically fight them with near even numbers, so eventually most of the faction has to respond which leaves every other keep open for PvDoor
---
The questions asked are mostly actual questions. Personally I can understand the frustration of ungrouped pugs trying to fight an organised group however I think that grouping is an essential part of largescale fighting and if the only real issue is that there isn't enough groups I would rather see changes to encourage grouping rather than nerfing the ability of groups to fight large amount of unorganised pugs.
Drummerx04 wrote: »I also can't help but notice drac members are currently using fantasia as the sole example of a guild that can get in their way while farming people out of Ash. I wonder, are they maybe not concerned about any guilds currently running on DC?