The Current Destro Pain Train Meta Needs To Die

bmesi

Hi Steve

DisgracefulMind

This post makes me sad ):

*goes back the The Forest*

Vilestride

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Regarding “going easy on people”, it depends on your goals. There was s time when we’d push hard every night, dethrone Haxus, take Arius and then.... nothing. Server just died for the day. Sometimes for a few days. Same with AD if we pushed too aggressively. We decided we valued the health of the campaign more than stomping on people and restricted ourselves. One of our first big falling out on DC with Daniel was when he wanted us to help him murder the server for the night and we refused. Demoralizing the PvP population gets you.... here. A dying population.

Where you draw the line is up to you. I find overarming is very much a thing. So is how you fight guilds that aren’t on your level yet. I never let a guild beat me to make them feel better but there’s a bit of space between letting them win and grinding their face into the concrete. I don’t know how you play or what goes on in there, but I agree with the idea that you can go too hard. We’ve seen it on NA a few times. AD outright killed servers. EP in 1.6 almost destroyed PvP. VE got accused of this during that time period where there weren’t guilds to challenge us. Id say the fewer guilds there are capable of dealing with you when you push it too far, the more careful you gotta be

^ that

I also want to note that in the scenarios you guys are referencing (Early AD and 1.6 EP) the respective factions were literally gate camping their rival factions daily for hours at a time giving them no other option than to meet them at a point they had no other choice than to walk through to get into cyrodil. I will take it as a compliment you think this is comparable to Dracarys going to Ash....lol. A keep which we specifically target to avoid stacking with our own faction in order to spread the fighting out mind you.

zyk wrote: »

I know some guilds can still compete, but I'm not sure anyone that runs as big as Drac is as closed to as optimized. Most of the time you are a group of pros crashing a pickup game. There's usually nothing for the other teams to learn from you because they simply don't want to take the game as seriously [anymore].

But here is the distinction between experience and optimisation we talked about earlier and where I fail to have sympathy. Unlike experience, optimisation (or in this case lack there of) is a choice and while I can respect the choice, I can't sympathise with it.

zyk wrote: »

In a vacuum, there's nothing wrong with a group of any size or play style as long as there's proper competition to support it.

This is where I am really feeling this discussion is letting itself down. All of these examples seem really in vain to me, it's not as if Drac, or any guild in this game is the reason anyone stops playing (again if it is, I'll take it as a compliment)

We should be mature enough as a community to be able to speak about the state of the game, and more importantly the potential state of the game inside a vacuum. Outside of it there is too much cause and effect to clearly get viable solutions. Bringing me back to my point some 30 posts ago, we need to be able to define problems outside of the current contexts.

What I mean by this is that Dracarys, VE, hypocracy or frankly even destro ult are all irrelevant to the conversations that need to be had to fix this game. My concern, is we are distracting ourselves from real problems that allow the game to get this way in the first place.

Sharee

Sanct16 wrote: »

To be quite honest, it's not really true that groups are immune to these things.

"Large groups can have players take on specialized utility roles, reducing counter-play options against them"

That's about as close as you can get ZOS admitting that yes, they are immune.

Vilestride

Sharee wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

To be quite honest, it's not really true that groups are immune to these things.

"Large groups can have players take on specialized utility roles, reducing counter-play options against them"

That's about as close as you can get ZOS admitting that yes, they are immune.

Sancts point is that it's not as though even large groups can just walk through cyrodil unhindered. If there are large scale groups out there who feel like movement is easy for them even with a rapids guy then hats off to them. But I can tell that for us at least part of our groups movement capabilities actually come from how often we communicate an inability to move and react on that accordingly.

Even with a rapids guy the amount of callouts for "stuck in the back " and "I'm feared or stunned or chain pulled " would suggest something other than complete immovability.

asneakybanana

pieratsos wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Now the question is: Why do we consider kodi 1v4ing people fine but a raid 12v50ing as broken? There hardly is a difference.

Actually there is a huge difference. Knowing that ur skill matters, doing the best u can but still losing to someone because he is simply better and u got outplayed is one thing. Thats totally acceptable. You can get better, put on better gear as well and take him on again. But feeling helpless and not being able to do absolutely anything not because u are not good enough but because of stupid mechanics unless u bring more numbers to use those same stupid mechanics is a very different story.

I mean what's the difference between getting better, wearing better gear and learning to not get outplayed again vs. one person or vs 12-16? You could get a 12-16 man group together and get coordinated and wear the proper gear setups and you can beat the organized groups and stop getting out played. Instead of just making yourself better it's making your group better though. It's your choice to play solo instead of with an organized group.

You are not getting outplayed by those groups. That is literally the point. Im sorry but spamming one button isnt exactly what i would call "outplay" people.

You are not making urself or ur group better. You are just making ur group bigger and abuse the same stupid mechanics they do to be able to face them.

If you just wanted to make yourself bigger why not just run like 50+ ND just light attack? Organized groups is about taking x number of people, usually 12 or 14 and designing the best possible group around that and then any 2 or 4 extras bringing it to 16 can be a flex role to help the group. If you ran a 12 man that ran a group comp and theory crafted the way these groups do you could make a group that could be competitive rather than being outplayed. As has been said many times, the problem with organized groups right now is the lack of them and therefore the lack of things to counter the remaining organized groups. If you want to counter a 1vx player you learn the skills to 1vx and play to a similar level as them, therefore if you want to counter an organized group you need to learn the skills to counter an organized group. There honestly needs to be more organized groups in cyro to make it a healthier place this way groups.like drac and Fantasia have a true counter.

I dont want to group up and do the same stuff just to be able to fight them and i shouldnt have to do that. Especially when that thing is so braindead and boring. I dont want to kill them. I dont even expect to kill them. Im just looking for actual enjoyable fights no matter what playstyle i choose. And when i end up being outnumbered, at least i want to be able to have a good fight whether i win or die. It used to work that way, it doesnt work that way anymore. Now its either ball up or gtfo .

So no, the issue isnt that there are not enough of those groups. The issue is that they even exist in that form. And the fact that gameplay is such a joke, is the reason why there are not enough people in the first place and why the population is getting smaller every patch. And to make it a little more simple, ill just post this.

Xsorus wrote: »

Also having dedicated roles in a group isn’t bad... but when your zerg reaches a point where you have a dedicated person spamming rapids... you’ve gone full potato.

I don't disagree that organized groups are overly strong and hard to counter right now it's part of the reason I don't enjoy eso much anymore and have been playing destiny 2 recently. However, I feel as though this isn't a new thing in eso,. I remember taking 12-16 players and farming for as long as I can remember. Groups like alacrity and no mercy were the best at launch and essentially did what we do. They were guilds that didn't just control the flow of PvP in the main campaign they controlled it in multiple campaigns and often held off literally hundreds of players who organized to "raid" their campaign and try to dethrone their emp. Some of these players reigned for 2+ months because there was almost nothing that could take them down. But no one complained then because there was actually competition between similarly skilled guilds and now that has mostly gone away. Sure there's still some but there's less and less.

All that said, organized groups will always have an advantage over solo players and pugs of equal or even greater numbers. A group that is constantly striving to improve and be the best they can be. You quote the thing about people dedicated to spamming rapids but look at 1.6-2.6 with Sometimes a quarter or more of some groups just running builds to endlessly spamming bombard, especially after thieves guild patch where rapids was nerfed and it made roots extremely strong. This led to the rise of the rapid maneuver spam roles as instead of having 1 rapids and being able to move while healing you now dropped rapids as soon as you casted anything.

I personally would love to see this meta turned on it's head, not just DMG such as eots but everything about it and have groups figure it out from there. However even if that happened I fear we would get to the same issue were having right now where there is simply just no competition to stop these organized groups from fighting 3x or more of their numbers of less organized players and the simple unwillingness of other players to try and push their groups to this level of play is going to allow this to happen. It doesn't matter what is done but groups like dracarys will always be able fight extremely outnumbered and the only thing that will counter them is a group willing to be just as organized. I personally believe there are hard counters to destro ult groups now but it requires 12+ people willing to run a designated spec and that may be hard with EG right now but I still believe it is possible.

Tl;Dr I feel groups are overly strong but groups have always been this way and they are perhaps not even the strongest they've ever been. Bombard spam and maneuvers change created these dedicated rapid spammer roles to counter that. Organized groups will always only be able to be taken out in equal numbers by other organized groups or else 3x their numbers of pugs.

Edit: and while group play may not require as much raw individual player skill as 1vx it requires much much more coordination on movement and knowing how to react. I've played in organized groups for a long time, perhaps one of the oldest organized group players left on na, and I've always felt what makes me one of the better group players is my ability to over time think how my raid leader does and this way I can anticipate what we will do and how we will react to things before I'm even told and I like to think everyone else in dracarys and other organized groups do the same. So while yes, you may be able to focus only on doing as much damage as possible with your build in group it is not as simple as saying "organized group play is easier" because there are many different aspects and I challenge you to actually try it and see how easy it is. Actually put together a 12-16 man with proper roles and builds and see how well you do when you separate yourself from your faction. Then come back and tell us how easy it is because I can tell you that it's not as easy as "press one skill over and over and everything automatically dies".

Derra

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

• If I call out, "Drac raid in Ash" there may not be a group that can realistically fight them with near even numbers, so eventually most of the faction has to respond which leaves every other keep open for PvDoor

I simply have no sympathy for this feeling of helplessness that seems to be infectious. There is not a lack of guilds with the potential to contest an ash farm such as in the example you have given (I can tell you right now if fantasia show up to that fight it's going to be anything but a casual faction farm for the day). There is however a lack of guilds willing to take the steps required to do so. There are plenty of equal or larger organised raids running when ours does on a daily basis, many of who show up at said farms. If those guilds choose not to play the meta or run optimised builds because they don't like it then fine, whatever, play any build you want, power to you, I am glad you are sticking it to the meta man and pursuing your dreams as a free citizen of Tamriel.

But if that's case, then sorry, those guilds just don't get to expect to be able to win. ZoS will change the meta re-actively based on forum QQ time after time but each time the same guilds are going to either accept the meta and be competitive, or not, and continue to loose these fights, it's that simple.

I don't expect even the best players in the game to beat kodi 1v1 if they are running some smugglers and Jailbreak snowflake stamblade build. If the guilds who ARE active want to prevent their respective factions from experiencing this helplessness then they have to be willing to adapt their gameplay, whether they like it or not.

Until then I hope everyone is having as much fun as us out there. I for one would like to see the changes I have previously mentioned but overall I am loving it.

Look at the game though. How many "new guild" have become competitive?

Your guild is a conglomeration of the remnants of top end EP, DC and AD guilds. Fantasia is a conglomeration of leftover high end DC and AD players. I don't know if Invictus still runs strong, but they're the same thing: a mix of old GoS players and players from other high end guilds.

When was the last time a group became competitive with the top ESO guilds without top ESO players on their roster? Hell, VE recruited heavily from zone but we still had a lengthy list of top end players on our roster.

You're basically saying what i've been saying is a problem with the current grouping scheme for a while.

The barrier for entry is to high in terms of the amount of people required.

If you wanted to compete with a zerg guild like Drac, you'd have to actually recruit 16-24 players on a nightly basis.

Now imagine if the group cap was 8 people....It would be far easier for new Groups to form up and learn and compete against the current competition.

This is what me and Lowbie was telling you back in the day when you guys were running more and more numbers. Its a snowballing effect. Its also why they should of capped the groups far lower in PvP.

That doesn't mean zerging shouldn't exist....But if you want viable group vs group gameplay you don't want it to be Guild zerg vs guild zerg.

THIS IS 100% what bothered me about these large groups from the beginning - and the main issue i had with them.

pieratsos

asneakybanana wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Now the question is: Why do we consider kodi 1v4ing people fine but a raid 12v50ing as broken? There hardly is a difference.

Actually there is a huge difference. Knowing that ur skill matters, doing the best u can but still losing to someone because he is simply better and u got outplayed is one thing. Thats totally acceptable. You can get better, put on better gear as well and take him on again. But feeling helpless and not being able to do absolutely anything not because u are not good enough but because of stupid mechanics unless u bring more numbers to use those same stupid mechanics is a very different story.

I mean what's the difference between getting better, wearing better gear and learning to not get outplayed again vs. one person or vs 12-16? You could get a 12-16 man group together and get coordinated and wear the proper gear setups and you can beat the organized groups and stop getting out played. Instead of just making yourself better it's making your group better though. It's your choice to play solo instead of with an organized group.

You are not getting outplayed by those groups. That is literally the point. Im sorry but spamming one button isnt exactly what i would call "outplay" people.

You are not making urself or ur group better. You are just making ur group bigger and abuse the same stupid mechanics they do to be able to face them.

If you just wanted to make yourself bigger why not just run like 50+ ND just light attack? Organized groups is about taking x number of people, usually 12 or 14 and designing the best possible group around that and then any 2 or 4 extras bringing it to 16 can be a flex role to help the group. If you ran a 12 man that ran a group comp and theory crafted the way these groups do you could make a group that could be competitive rather than being outplayed. As has been said many times, the problem with organized groups right now is the lack of them and therefore the lack of things to counter the remaining organized groups. If you want to counter a 1vx player you learn the skills to 1vx and play to a similar level as them, therefore if you want to counter an organized group you need to learn the skills to counter an organized group. There honestly needs to be more organized groups in cyro to make it a healthier place this way groups.like drac and Fantasia have a true counter.

I dont want to group up and do the same stuff just to be able to fight them and i shouldnt have to do that. Especially when that thing is so braindead and boring. I dont want to kill them. I dont even expect to kill them. Im just looking for actual enjoyable fights no matter what playstyle i choose. And when i end up being outnumbered, at least i want to be able to have a good fight whether i win or die. It used to work that way, it doesnt work that way anymore. Now its either ball up or gtfo .

So no, the issue isnt that there are not enough of those groups. The issue is that they even exist in that form. And the fact that gameplay is such a joke, is the reason why there are not enough people in the first place and why the population is getting smaller every patch. And to make it a little more simple, ill just post this.

Xsorus wrote: »

Also having dedicated roles in a group isn’t bad... but when your zerg reaches a point where you have a dedicated person spamming rapids... you’ve gone full potato.

I don't disagree that organized groups are overly strong and hard to counter right now it's part of the reason I don't enjoy eso much anymore and have been playing destiny 2 recently. However, I feel as though this isn't a new thing in eso,. I remember taking 12-16 players and farming for as long as I can remember. Groups like alacrity and no mercy were the best at launch and essentially did what we do. They were guilds that didn't just control the flow of PvP in the main campaign they controlled it in multiple campaigns and often held off literally hundreds of players who organized to "raid" their campaign and try to dethrone their emp. Some of these players reigned for 2+ months because there was almost nothing that could take them down. But no one complained then because there was actually competition between similarly skilled guilds and now that has mostly gone away. Sure there's still some but there's less and less.

All that said, organized groups will always have an advantage over solo players and pugs of equal or even greater numbers. A group that is constantly striving to improve and be the best they can be. You quote the thing about people dedicated to spamming rapids but look at 1.6-2.6 with Sometimes a quarter or more of some groups just running builds to endlessly spamming bombard, especially after thieves guild patch where rapids was nerfed and it made roots extremely strong. This led to the rise of the rapid maneuver spam roles as instead of having 1 rapids and being able to move while healing you now dropped rapids as soon as you casted anything.

I personally would love to see this meta turned on it's head, not just DMG such as eots but everything about it and have groups figure it out from there. However even if that happened I fear we would get to the same issue were having right now where there is simply just no competition to stop these organized groups from fighting 3x or more of their numbers of less organized players and the simple unwillingness of other players to try and push their groups to this level of play is going to allow this to happen. It doesn't matter what is done but groups like dracarys will always be able fight extremely outnumbered and the only thing that will counter them is a group willing to be just as organized. I personally believe there are hard counters to destro ult groups now but it requires 12+ people willing to run a designated spec and that may be hard with EG right now but I still believe it is possible.

Tl;Dr I feel groups are overly strong but groups have always been this way and they are perhaps not even the strongest they've ever been. Bombard spam and maneuvers change created these dedicated rapid spammer roles to counter that. Organized groups will always only be able to be taken out in equal numbers by other organized groups or else 3x their numbers of pugs.

Edit: and while group play may not require as much raw individual player skill as 1vx it requires much much more coordination on movement and knowing how to react. I've played in organized groups for a long time, perhaps one of the oldest organized group players left on na, and I've always felt what makes me one of the better group players is my ability to over time think how my raid leader does and this way I can anticipate what we will do and how we will react to things before I'm even told and I like to think everyone else in dracarys and other organized groups do the same. So while yes, you may be able to focus only on doing as much damage as possible with your build in group it is not as simple as saying "organized group play is easier" because there are many different aspects and I challenge you to actually try it and see how easy it is. Actually put together a 12-16 man with proper roles and builds and see how well you do when you separate yourself from your faction. Then come back and tell us how easy it is because I can tell you that it's not as easy as "press one skill over and over and everything automatically dies".

Im not arguing for removal of organised PVP and like i said i dont even expect to kill those groups. Hell, i dont even want to fight them. Im just saying that the overall gameplay is so braindead and stupid which leads to this horsesh*t that we have today which is basically ball up and farm pugs or gtfo. And that is highlighted by the quote i posted. When organised PVP includes people spamming literally one ability and wreck everything in their path then its obvious that something is fundamentally wrong.

To me organised PVP would involve something like strategic gameplay, good coordination and actual player skill. Maybe something like buff up together, help each other in difficult situations with synergies and such, split up and each player using the advantages of the class to do a specific job. Maybe something like nightblades sneaking behind siegers and taking them out.

Thats actually interesting organised PVP in which every player can feel like their actions actually have an impact no matter how they play (solo, small scale, large groups or whatever). And to some extend u could say that this exist for medium fights like 6v6 for example but even that is getting lost in the bs of poor balance, trash mechanics and when groups of 15+ people arrive.

And i understand that this is not going to happen cause it would probably require to basically start everything from scratch or maybe it could happen by just capping groups at 8 people, i dont know. But they could definitely do something better than what we have today. And they need to do something better than what we have today cause its quite obvious that what we have today is slowly killing PVP and thats not even a debate. The numbers are there. The population is getting smaller each patch.

Xsorus

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

• If I call out, "Drac raid in Ash" there may not be a group that can realistically fight them with near even numbers, so eventually most of the faction has to respond which leaves every other keep open for PvDoor

I simply have no sympathy for this feeling of helplessness that seems to be infectious. There is not a lack of guilds with the potential to contest an ash farm such as in the example you have given (I can tell you right now if fantasia show up to that fight it's going to be anything but a casual faction farm for the day). There is however a lack of guilds willing to take the steps required to do so. There are plenty of equal or larger organised raids running when ours does on a daily basis, many of who show up at said farms. If those guilds choose not to play the meta or run optimised builds because they don't like it then fine, whatever, play any build you want, power to you, I am glad you are sticking it to the meta man and pursuing your dreams as a free citizen of Tamriel.

But if that's case, then sorry, those guilds just don't get to expect to be able to win. ZoS will change the meta re-actively based on forum QQ time after time but each time the same guilds are going to either accept the meta and be competitive, or not, and continue to loose these fights, it's that simple.

I don't expect even the best players in the game to beat kodi 1v1 if they are running some smugglers and Jailbreak snowflake stamblade build. If the guilds who ARE active want to prevent their respective factions from experiencing this helplessness then they have to be willing to adapt their gameplay, whether they like it or not.

Until then I hope everyone is having as much fun as us out there. I for one would like to see the changes I have previously mentioned but overall I am loving it.

Look at the game though. How many "new guild" have become competitive?

Your guild is a conglomeration of the remnants of top end EP, DC and AD guilds. Fantasia is a conglomeration of leftover high end DC and AD players. I don't know if Invictus still runs strong, but they're the same thing: a mix of old GoS players and players from other high end guilds.

When was the last time a group became competitive with the top ESO guilds without top ESO players on their roster? Hell, VE recruited heavily from zone but we still had a lengthy list of top end players on our roster.

You're basically saying what i've been saying is a problem with the current grouping scheme for a while.

The barrier for entry is to high in terms of the amount of people required.

If you wanted to compete with a zerg guild like Drac, you'd have to actually recruit 16-24 players on a nightly basis.

Now imagine if the group cap was 8 people....It would be far easier for new Groups to form up and learn and compete against the current competition.

This is what me and Lowbie was telling you back in the day when you guys were running more and more numbers. Its a snowballing effect. Its also why they should of capped the groups far lower in PvP.

That doesn't mean zerging shouldn't exist....But if you want viable group vs group gameplay you don't want it to be Guild zerg vs guild zerg.

THIS IS 100% what bothered me about these large groups from the beginning - and the main issue i had with them.

I'll tell you right now the thing that impresses me the most with the Guild Zergs running right now is the sheer consistent way they can get 12+ people online every night to form these groups. I remember how getting 8 was a pain.

Xsorus

Sharee wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

To be quite honest, it's not really true that groups are immune to these things.

"Large groups can have players take on specialized utility roles, reducing counter-play options against them"

That's about as close as you can get ZOS admitting that yes, they are immune.

This is probably one of the biggest issues right now; everything that harms everyone else and what would possibly threaten these groups is pretty much ignorable right now. I’ve watched these groups straight up stand in the middle of 10+ siege weapons on a flag and not move and not be in any threat of dying.

Mickydanz

remove all aoe ults from pvp rip trains

technohic

Xsorus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

To be quite honest, it's not really true that groups are immune to these things.

"Large groups can have players take on specialized utility roles, reducing counter-play options against them"

That's about as close as you can get ZOS admitting that yes, they are immune.

This is probably one of the biggest issues right now; everything that harms everyone else and what would possibly threaten these groups is pretty much ignorable right now. I’ve watched these groups straight up stand in the middle of 10+ siege weapons on a flag and not move and not be in any threat of dying.

Yeah saw siege hitting a group the other night; through a negate on them; only to see it disappear instantly and they all go unharmed.

Proc sets have been doing to groups what they did to stamina classes before.

Joy_Division

Xsorus wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

To be quite honest, it's not really true that groups are immune to these things.

"Large groups can have players take on specialized utility roles, reducing counter-play options against them"

That's about as close as you can get ZOS admitting that yes, they are immune.

This is probably one of the biggest issues right now; everything that harms everyone else and what would possibly threaten these groups is pretty much ignorable right now. I’ve watched these groups straight up stand in the middle of 10+ siege weapons on a flag and not move and not be in any threat of dying.

It is, though I'm not sure there is an easy answer for this.

The difference between catching a mediocre guild/PuGs on flags with oils, siege, residual AoE and groups like Drac is night and day. Those people who want ZoS to increase the damage siege does are only going to succeed in murdering people who are not as good or in an organized top guild.

Then those people who want to nerf healing, purge, etc., are going to running into the same problem from a different direction: because these skills are so overnerfed, I'd have to "git gud" and join a top PvP guild not get melted the moment I step into a contested keep.

As long as there are highly skilled players in organized groups, they are going to be able to shrug off what seems to be a devastating uncoordinated bombardment.

I don't actually think that's a problem though. Skilled players and organized group sought to have the potential to attain heroic feats and I'd argue that potential needs to exist otherwise there would be no reason to for a group of 12 to break off a faction stack since it would be pointless to take a backline keep or what not as they be consigned to failure and wiping if there were 24 defenders.

My issue is that the ways and tactics organized groups can attain the power that they have isn't very imaginative and a lot of it comes from not even pressing buttons. Sets like Earth-gore and Vicious Death make it such that I can be a total PuG and not die and get kills. People might not like Dynamic Ult regen or the guard skill because they were strong, but at least it required the user to actually do something to tap their potential. That sort of power needs to be in the game somewhere not to make it pointless to be outnumbered and I'd much prefer that power come from abilities and following game-play mechanics than gear.

It doesn't appear ZoS is going to change the direction they have taken ESO though. The will continue to offer OP gear sets as part of their DLCs to ensure people keep buying their content and with every patch, the actual classes we play get weaker and weaker as their former power is siphoned off to the Champion System, generic buffs, and gear bonuses.

So I'd like for ZoS to setup some weekly events where they could at least just see what happens as they did when they disabled CP for a week. Heck, I'd even be up for a DAoC nostalgic week and cap group size at 8 just to see what happens. The PvP community has given ZoS dozens and dozens and dozens of suggestion on how to improve Cyrodiil or at least make the place more dynamic and it hasn't so much as lifted a finger to even just try a lot of them out. That's very disappointing.

Sanct16

Mickydanz wrote: »

remove all aoe ults from pvp rip trains

And how would you wipe a train without aoe ults?

Drummerx04

Vilestride wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Regarding “going easy on people”, it depends on your goals. There was s time when we’d push hard every night, dethrone Haxus, take Arius and then.... nothing. Server just died for the day. Sometimes for a few days. Same with AD if we pushed too aggressively. We decided we valued the health of the campaign more than stomping on people and restricted ourselves. One of our first big falling out on DC with Daniel was when he wanted us to help him murder the server for the night and we refused. Demoralizing the PvP population gets you.... here. A dying population.

Where you draw the line is up to you. I find overarming is very much a thing. So is how you fight guilds that aren’t on your level yet. I never let a guild beat me to make them feel better but there’s a bit of space between letting them win and grinding their face into the concrete. I don’t know how you play or what goes on in there, but I agree with the idea that you can go too hard. We’ve seen it on NA a few times. AD outright killed servers. EP in 1.6 almost destroyed PvP. VE got accused of this during that time period where there weren’t guilds to challenge us. Id say the fewer guilds there are capable of dealing with you when you push it too far, the more careful you gotta be

^ that

I also want to note that in the scenarios you guys are referencing (Early AD and 1.6 EP) the respective factions were literally gate camping their rival factions daily for hours at a time giving them no other option than to meet them at a point they had no other choice than to walk through to get into cyrodil. I will take it as a compliment you think this is comparable to Dracarys going to Ash....lol. A keep which we specifically target to avoid stacking with our own faction in order to spread the fighting out mind you.

zyk wrote: »

I know some guilds can still compete, but I'm not sure anyone that runs as big as Drac is as closed to as optimized. Most of the time you are a group of pros crashing a pickup game. There's usually nothing for the other teams to learn from you because they simply don't want to take the game as seriously [anymore].

But here is the distinction between experience and optimisation we talked about earlier and where I fail to have sympathy. Unlike experience, optimisation (or in this case lack there of) is a choice and while I can respect the choice, I can't sympathise with it.

zyk wrote: »

In a vacuum, there's nothing wrong with a group of any size or play style as long as there's proper competition to support it.

This is where I am really feeling this discussion is letting itself down. All of these examples seem really in vain to me, it's not as if Drac, or any guild in this game is the reason anyone stops playing (again if it is, I'll take it as a compliment)

We should be mature enough as a community to be able to speak about the state of the game, and more importantly the potential state of the game inside a vacuum. Outside of it there is too much cause and effect to clearly get viable solutions. Bringing me back to my point some 30 posts ago, we need to be able to define problems outside of the current contexts.

What I mean by this is that Dracarys, VE, hypocracy or frankly even destro ult are all irrelevant to the conversations that need to be had to fix this game. My concern, is we are distracting ourselves from real problems that allow the game to get this way in the first place.

Lol, the only reason this thread isn't locked is because ZOS want's us to fight each other rather than complain about the lag and the lack of meaningful objectives for smaller groups.

Legitimately, if the game ran much better, the entire faction stacking into Ash to kill Drac wouldn't bother me as much, because I could then at least still cast skills.

Texas

Joy_Division wrote: »

How about stop trying to come up with incorrect, spurious, and misleading analogies and instead just accept what I am saying? You ought to trust me here, I know myself and my history with ESO better than you do.

I'm a hyprocrite huh? Check out the date of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG9kq2I6mPE&t=15s

That's my video. Mine. I made it. That's December 7, 2015. Because I couldn't stand AoE caps and the what passed for guild strategies. You what else about that date? I was in VE for six months! You and Rin's presumptions are wrong. I'm not against these stack-on-crown blob PBAoE "tactics" because I'm not longer run in VE, it's because I don't think those mechanics are interesting or compelling, and I absolutely think they could and should be reformed and improved.

I have been consistent in how I feel about the game, how I posted, and when I posted.

I respect @Derra too, because he doesn't come onto these forums are lecture me about how I feel about the game or calls me a hypocrite because I dare critique the game's mechanics.

@Rin_Senya @Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO Is that youtube video good enough?

Forum PvP at it's finest....ZOS needs to nerf Joy's keyboard as it is the new OPness.....Joy 2 - Drac 0.

pieratsos

Sanct16 wrote: »

Mickydanz wrote: »

remove all aoe ults from pvp rip trains

And how would you wipe a train without aoe ults?

Well the aim of something like that would be to discourage the creation of trains in the first place. Maybe something like removing/reworking all PBAoE would be better.

dsalter

the main problem is Point Blank AoE abilities that FOLLOW you.
Eye of the cheese works so well cause it's fire and forget, while you spam gapclosers and OTHER AoE's.

anything that is AoE and FOLLWOS the player shouldnt be able to do such high damage. it's game breaking.

wow did away with most of these BECAUSE of how overly effective it was, and they are fanatics about stopping cheesing, most AoE's on there now are targetted cast time FLOOR spells, anything that moves and AoE's is much weaker or needs to be spammed, which racks up bigger spam costs.

Derra

pieratsos wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Mickydanz wrote: »

remove all aoe ults from pvp rip trains

And how would you wipe a train without aoe ults?

Well the aim of something like that would be to discourage the creation of trains in the first place. Maybe something like removing/reworking all PBAoE would be better.

the problem is that the current trains have an additional benefit bc of the games target system - they make coordinated singletarget attacks against one player of a group impossible.

so when you have no aoe to kill groups and can´t reliably hit the same target with singletarget attacks - yes ppl would still ball up bc not dying is what the majority of the playerbase finds fun.

Drakkdjinn

jimijac0me wrote: »

I think the faction pride is a big thing that’s changed since early days, guilds were DC or gone back then - from DC prospective of course. Now days pop is low so some guilds hop between factions and so do players. I understand why, but I don’t think it helps a AvAvA dynamic very well.

Sharee wrote: »

HaroniNDeorum wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Want to combat zergballs?

ZOS should remove the ability to purge siege aliments

Meaning if you get hit by that Snare Catapult..you can't just purge it with RM

same with Meatball

Watch how much fun Zergballs have then.

what you want us to do if 50+ enemies are chasing us? Want us to just stop and die?

Other options would be: attack where there are not 50+ enemies chasing you, or get more friendly players to support you. Where is it written that you absolutely need to be able to face 50+ enemies with a small group and *not* die?

Seriously. It seems to me those "organized groups" got so used to being virtually immune to anything other than a similar group that they started believing it is their god-given right.

What this poster fails to understand is that often, in Vivec especially, there are no fights of consequence occurring on the map without 50+ people involved, because that is the only strategy the majority of the Cyrodiil population knows to be effective. If players followed the "go somewhere else mentality" instead of the "adjust your play to hang vs. the Zerg", Cyrodiil would be an empty, dead PvDoor experience where factions play when the others are asleep and no actual PvP occurs - which is the trend we've seen lately and has nothing to do with ball groups but an intense and obstinate refusal by the players to actually learn pvp mechanics instead of copy pasting builds from streamers that are nigh useless in large AvA fights, only to get upset that they don't work like in that severly edited video they saw, then hold hands in a pile of potatoes 50 strong while they complain about the players on the other faction who actually brought their Cyrodiil builds to Cyrodiil to stop their Zerg v. Door factionstacking "PvP".

pieratsos

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Mickydanz wrote: »

remove all aoe ults from pvp rip trains

And how would you wipe a train without aoe ults?

Well the aim of something like that would be to discourage the creation of trains in the first place. Maybe something like removing/reworking all PBAoE would be better.

the problem is that the current trains have an additional benefit bc of the games target system - they make coordinated singletarget attacks against one player of a group impossible.

so when you have no aoe to kill groups and can´t reliably hit the same target with singletarget attacks - yes ppl would still ball up bc not dying is what the majority of the playerbase finds fun.

But you could possibly hit them with targetted AOE abilities. And you could also do other tweaks that also discourage those balls defensively as well. Like single target rapids, purge rework, unpurgeable siege or whatever. I didnt say its a perfect solution but my point is be to make changes in a way that balling up gives no benefits instead of just trying to find new ways to combat balls.

Imo introducing ways to combat balls doesnt actually solve anything. Shieldbreaker didnt fix shieldstacking and bomblades didnt fix ball groups. So why do we keep trying to do the same thing that failed again and again in the past. That seems like the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. Just try a new approach for a change.

PainfulFAFA

Destro trains and LAG are still goin?.... i stopped logging in 4 months+ ago because of this and pvp got stale....doesnt look like ill be redownloading eso anytime soon..

evoprimes

In my opinion the easiest way to stop this is by diminishing the damage output of each player's destro ulti only if they use it in the same time, are in the same group and they are very close to eachother.

As an example: if one player uses his ultimate and has 5k dmg per tick, the second player that will use the same ultimate will cause a reduction in damage output to both(3.5k per tick, possibly). The reduction rate goes higher as more players use the same ultimate.

In a nutshell, if you stack ulties, you get an exponential reduced damage output.

Let me know what you guys think about it.

Drummerx04

evoprimes wrote: »

In my opinion the easiest way to stop this is by diminishing the damage output of each player's destro ulti only if they use it in the same time, are in the same group and they are very close to eachother.

As an example: if one player uses his ultimate and has 5k dmg per tick, the second player that will use the same ultimate will cause a reduction in damage output to both(3.5k per tick, possibly). The reduction rate goes higher as more players use the same ultimate.

In a nutshell, if you stack ulties, you get an exponential reduced damage output.

Let me know what you guys think about it.

Ironically, that just makes the ball groups even tankier for the same reason AoE caps would. Often two or three medium strength destros aren't enough to take out the best ball groups, and now you are saying we should only be able to use one at a time?

Doesn't seems like a solution.

Autumnhart

asneakybanana wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Now the question is: Why do we consider kodi 1v4ing people fine but a raid 12v50ing as broken? There hardly is a difference.

Actually there is a huge difference. Knowing that ur skill matters, doing the best u can but still losing to someone because he is simply better and u got outplayed is one thing. Thats totally acceptable. You can get better, put on better gear as well and take him on again. But feeling helpless and not being able to do absolutely anything not because u are not good enough but because of stupid mechanics unless u bring more numbers to use those same stupid mechanics is a very different story.

I mean what's the difference between getting better, wearing better gear and learning to not get outplayed again vs. one person or vs 12-16? You could get a 12-16 man group together and get coordinated and wear the proper gear setups and you can beat the organized groups and stop getting out played. Instead of just making yourself better it's making your group better though. It's your choice to play solo instead of with an organized group.

You are not getting outplayed by those groups. That is literally the point. Im sorry but spamming one button isnt exactly what i would call "outplay" people.

You are not making urself or ur group better. You are just making ur group bigger and abuse the same stupid mechanics they do to be able to face them.

If you just wanted to make yourself bigger why not just run like 50+ ND just light attack? Organized groups is about taking x number of people, usually 12 or 14 and designing the best possible group around that and then any 2 or 4 extras bringing it to 16 can be a flex role to help the group. If you ran a 12 man that ran a group comp and theory crafted the way these groups do you could make a group that could be competitive rather than being outplayed. As has been said many times, the problem with organized groups right now is the lack of them and therefore the lack of things to counter the remaining organized groups. If you want to counter a 1vx player you learn the skills to 1vx and play to a similar level as them, therefore if you want to counter an organized group you need to learn the skills to counter an organized group. There honestly needs to be more organized groups in cyro to make it a healthier place this way groups.like drac and Fantasia have a true counter.

I dont want to group up and do the same stuff just to be able to fight them and i shouldnt have to do that. Especially when that thing is so braindead and boring. I dont want to kill them. I dont even expect to kill them. Im just looking for actual enjoyable fights no matter what playstyle i choose. And when i end up being outnumbered, at least i want to be able to have a good fight whether i win or die. It used to work that way, it doesnt work that way anymore. Now its either ball up or gtfo .

So no, the issue isnt that there are not enough of those groups. The issue is that they even exist in that form. And the fact that gameplay is such a joke, is the reason why there are not enough people in the first place and why the population is getting smaller every patch. And to make it a little more simple, ill just post this.

Xsorus wrote: »

Also having dedicated roles in a group isn’t bad... but when your zerg reaches a point where you have a dedicated person spamming rapids... you’ve gone full potato.

I don't disagree that organized groups are overly strong and hard to counter right now it's part of the reason I don't enjoy eso much anymore and have been playing destiny 2 recently. However, I feel as though this isn't a new thing in eso,. I remember taking 12-16 players and farming for as long as I can remember. Groups like alacrity and no mercy were the best at launch and essentially did what we do. They were guilds that didn't just control the flow of PvP in the main campaign they controlled it in multiple campaigns and often held off literally hundreds of players who organized to "raid" their campaign and try to dethrone their emp. Some of these players reigned for 2+ months because there was almost nothing that could take them down. But no one complained then because there was actually competition between similarly skilled guilds and now that has mostly gone away. Sure there's still some but there's less and less.

All that said, organized groups will always have an advantage over solo players and pugs of equal or even greater numbers. A group that is constantly striving to improve and be the best they can be. You quote the thing about people dedicated to spamming rapids but look at 1.6-2.6 with Sometimes a quarter or more of some groups just running builds to endlessly spamming bombard, especially after thieves guild patch where rapids was nerfed and it made roots extremely strong. This led to the rise of the rapid maneuver spam roles as instead of having 1 rapids and being able to move while healing you now dropped rapids as soon as you casted anything.

I personally would love to see this meta turned on it's head, not just DMG such as eots but everything about it and have groups figure it out from there. However even if that happened I fear we would get to the same issue were having right now where there is simply just no competition to stop these organized groups from fighting 3x or more of their numbers of less organized players and the simple unwillingness of other players to try and push their groups to this level of play is going to allow this to happen. It doesn't matter what is done but groups like dracarys will always be able fight extremely outnumbered and the only thing that will counter them is a group willing to be just as organized. I personally believe there are hard counters to destro ult groups now but it requires 12+ people willing to run a designated spec and that may be hard with EG right now but I still believe it is possible.

Tl;Dr I feel groups are overly strong but groups have always been this way and they are perhaps not even the strongest they've ever been. Bombard spam and maneuvers change created these dedicated rapid spammer roles to counter that. Organized groups will always only be able to be taken out in equal numbers by other organized groups or else 3x their numbers of pugs.

There is a parallel between "organized group play" and another powerful advantage: stealth. It's hard to balance, and there have been times stealth and invisibility have been too powerful and too much a factor in open world PVP. ZOS helps out by repeatedly screwing up cloak, but there are also a lot more legit counters to stealth now. Proc sets took a blanket nerf because some of my sneaky brothers couldn't resist maximum cheese. These changes were necessary improvements that had to be made by the devs at a gameplay level. "Just slot magelight," wasn't a good enough solution.

***

Sorry but not surprised to see that sportsmanship isn't going to get a more thorough discussion. If that's not a factor at all in your decisions as an elite player of any game, you're doing it wrong.

[Edited to clarify that last comment is general and not aimed at the people quoted.]

Valencer

I really just want to see the people that claim it's all 1 button spam to try it out themselves. Join a PvP raiding guild - try providing rapids or purge support or even playing a healer or DD and see how easy it is.

I hate the current meta with a passion, but if there's one thing I learned from my previous raiding days it's that even in "trivial" roles like rapids spam, having a ***/inexperienced player try to play said role usually completely guts the raid's performance. There is a huge difference and it does take skill.

In the same breath some people here seem to suggest that a point and click mechanic like siege fire should somehow easily counter all that. And at the same time pretend it's actually skillfull play theyre looking for.

Please. The PvP in this game deserves to be more than a mindless and dumbed down 60 man pug zergfest

bmesi

Hi Steve

maxjapank

pieratsos wrote: »

To me organised PVP would involve something like strategic gameplay, good coordination and actual player skill. Maybe something like buff up together, help each other in difficult situations with synergies and such, split up and each player using the advantages of the class to do a specific job. Maybe something like nightblades sneaking behind siegers and taking them out.

I can't speak for other guilds. But contrary to what others may believe, this is exactly what my guild does. We do have roles within our group, but we make the most of group sets and skills to support the group. Group synergy is always theory crafted and adjusted. We may not have the most skilled 1vx'rs ( there are a few ), but as a group, we excel.

But I'd assume that most organized guilds are exactly the same. They may pick up new players, but to be successful against large numbers, they have to have a core group.

But as I said, this is contrary to what many believe. Mainly because lots of players have never run with a solid pvp guild. But I welcome them to try it out. They'd be surprised just how much coordination, teamwork, and communication is going on.

Vilestride

Autumnhart wrote: »

Sorry but not surprised to see that sportsmanship isn't going to get a more thorough discussion. If that's not a factor at all in your decisions as an elite player of any game, you're doing it wrong.

[Edited to clarify that last comment is general and not aimed at the people quoted.]

I would also be happy to discuss sportsmanship further. Are there any specific points previously made you would like to go over more thoroughly? If we were to again prioritise factors that have lead us to this point in the game, I would place our communities culture and sportsmanship higher on the list than destro ult as a destructive factor, So I agree, it warrants discussion.

leeux

IMO, and this is just a personal observation... the destro pain train groups used to be fine in the past, before Morrowind.

I personally witnessed cases on where a small group of up to really good up to 6 to 8 players went head to head with a group twice its size and was able to remain in the fight, even if not beat them due to lack of damage and endless rezzings.

So, what changed?

1. Earthgore was added... this is IMO a mayor influence.
2. Subjective maybe, but part of the issue, is that PvP is "dying": as in there are less good players fighting or less good players bothering to organize not so good players outside of their normal group of influence,
3. Morrowind changes happened, which in turn, leads to 2 since the game is "less fun" for a lot or people.

In conclusion, I don't think a blanket nerf to EotS or massive changes to balance are needed, just a tweak here and there, and maybe a fix to Earthgore, or a tweak some other sets and a certain class that are maybe overperforming, and maybe a revision of Morrowind changes that bring back some of the players that aren't playing anymore (but maybe not required.)

I'm afraid if ZOS reactions to these type of threads... they normally overreact which tends to leave the game in a worse state than if they just analyzed objectively and took action with a set of precision tools instead of picking the big hammer.