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The Current Destro Pain Train Meta Needs To Die
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gabriebe✭✭✭✭✭Siege would be a lot better if it was used to break apart ball groups instead of just using DoTs (cause let's face it, everything but fire siege is nearly useless against players). Fear balls (rats?), ice balls that immobilize, lightning ballistas that ignore CC immunity or even temporary barricades would all be viable options to tear apart the destro pain train meta currently dominating PvP.Edited by gabriebe on December 22, 2017 2:14PMFormer Empresses: Saliva Bortschion (MagBlade), Janet From Finance (PvP MagSorc), Carla Swagan (Tank DK), Estelle Born (StamBlade), Enya Arsenal (MagPlar), Anita Nurse (Magplar Healer), Bearback Brigitte (Magden), Rachel Justice (MagDK), Nicole From Payroll (Stamden), Bailiff Belinda (PvE MagSorc), Féline Dion (StamDK), Septic Tank Tina (Necro Tank)
The runts: The Trolly Spirit (Tank Sorc), Floods-Your-Basement (Warden Healer) Dinah Asthma (Magcro), Total Top Tony (Stamcro)
The traitors: Janis Javelin (Stamplar, EP), Barbecue Becky (Magblade Healer, AD)
PvE: Gryphon Heart, Immortal Redeemer, Flawless Conqueror
GM: Animal Control1 -
Rin_Senya✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »The first step to encouraging groups to form is to make running in them and against them dynamic and interesting. However much you may recognize and appreciate the subtitles of how things change form one patch to the next, it still looks like a bunch bots running around spamming PBAoE death.Joy_Division wrote: »Not that I am one to sympathize with ball groups
It's really funny to see this coming from a VE member. So it was completely fine for you to play such kind of style for...how long? 2 years? 3? And now SUDDENLY when your guild died you are so against it, "not one to sympathize" and want it to be nerfed even more just because you are not able/don't want to make a decent group to fight it?
Again, just because you and your friends see it like this after your guild quit it doesn't mean it's the only truth.Drummerx04 wrote: »Cyrodiil doesn't have the population to support the large hardcore organized groups.
As a player within hardcore organized groups which play both on NA and EU, I can tell you that there are always groups to fight. There is always a good population to fight against you just have to go out around the map to find it. Ofc if "the large hardcore organized groups" prefer to faction stack and just zerg one direction with 50 people not knowing anything better than that then it is a problem for sure, I agree.
As mentioned in a previous post in July:
When this was said in July I was surprised not to see VE adapt into smaller groups spread around the map "for the good of the Cyrodiil population" and to have "greater competition to fight against" too based on the views being brought up very regularly these days by multiple members.Tho in this I will admit, VE is a bit of a dinosaur. All the old big guilds we played against for the map and for fights are gone. It is a source of sadness to me that pretty much all the good players left in the game gathered into small guilds and small groups
Drac also has scheduled run times only 3-4 nights a week, I don't think there is a problem there right?Drummerx04 wrote: »[*] Hope there is another group on that can actually fight you head on (my guild has scheduled run times only 3 nights a week)
Again: it's not fun for *you*. When I play in 2-4 Drac man it's always fun for me and people that I play with to hunt and try to derail such groups.Drummerx04 wrote: »^ Those are the options for the average player and even skilled solo players, and none of them are fun.
_
People coming on forums claiming that how they feel about the game is the only truth and only version of facts asking ZOS to nerf things more and more. As the result the game has already been degraded to exactly this stage that so many people hate because groups were nerfed and the knock on effect also hurt every other style: solo, smallscale, organaized groups and simple pug groups.
but yeh.. the problem is only organized group play lets nerf that.
Anairi ~ EP | NA | AR50 - Dracarys
Anaire ~ AD/EP | EU | AR50 - Banana Squad/Zerg Squad/AOE Rats2 -
Irylia✭✭✭✭✭
✭GO back to dark brother hood and make some minor changes to heavy armor.
The current wear 5x for shuffle thing as well.
Or provide reasons/objectives for the faction scoring so small groups can go to different map locations and find fights/brawls skirmishing over cheydinhal, a caravan route, etc for hours against other small groups.
The stack on bridge/gate, 30 on either side, is the lamest excuse for large scale combat.5 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I am fond of saying this game makes hypocrites of us all. That is certainly true of me. I have often felt cognitive dissonance while ranting about something I've done or while doing something I've ranted about -- including running in a ball group using Earthgore. /facepalmIt's really funny to see this coming from a VE member. So it was completely fine for you to play such kind of style for...how long? 2 years? 3? And now SUDDENLY when your guild died you are so against it, "not one to sympathize" and want it to be nerfed even more just because you are not able/don't want to make a decent group to fight it?3 -
Rainraven✭✭✭✭✭
I am fond of saying this game makes hypocrites of us all. That is certainly true of me. I have often felt cognitive dissonance while ranting about something I've done or while doing something I've ranted about -- including running in a ball group using Earthgore. /facepalmIt's really funny to see this coming from a VE member. So it was completely fine for you to play such kind of style for...how long? 2 years? 3? And now SUDDENLY when your guild died you are so against it, "not one to sympathize" and want it to be nerfed even more just because you are not able/don't want to make a decent group to fight it?
Gasp!
I bet you've zerged at some point too! Heretic! Confess!
I'd think it would give you more credibility with people who feel like all of groupdom is being threatened, but what do I know.1 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You see the circles of death coming. You throw out a negate, nova, even elemental rage and watch as it is automatically silenced. You manage to pop immovability pots and momentum or start to streak away but alas, lag strikes and you're frozen in time until everything just catches up and you're in the middle of hell with just enough time to see yourself gasp your last breath
Thats what its like playing this game right now. I hate to say it but even if they managed to somehow find the perfect balance of meta for ball groups, small man, and zergs; you still must fight lag. I wanted so much to find a RvRvR type large scale game but alas; it always takes a back seat to everything else.Edited by technohic on December 23, 2017 4:41AM3 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭HaroniNDeorum wrote: »Want to combat zergballs?
ZOS should remove the ability to purge siege aliments
Meaning if you get hit by that Snare Catapult..you can't just purge it with RM
same with Meatball
Watch how much fun Zergballs have then.
what you want us to do if 50+ enemies are chasing us? Want us to just stop and die? In your idea, you want Zos to take down the only resources we have to manage incredible outnumbered fights, instead of call Zos to bring game mechanycs to spread people and make a real competition, i bet you that any organized "zeg ball" guild wants to fight 50+ pugs, we want equal numbers fights but to be competitive and challenge, equal fights when we can win or lose. The day Zos bring mechanycs to make a healthy environment and not reward the faction stacking as currently is, the game will be a good experience
Don’t attack groups head on who have siege up? And spread out?
You know... basic concepts that any pvp group that hasn’t been babied by shoddy game mechanics would of learned in two seconds?
Your post is a prime example of why something like that needs to be in the game... you’re asking how to deal with *** that is just so BASIC in other pvp games...
Yes, point and click siege warriors are really struggling in today's Cyrodiil.
Being able to put up a siege weapon in 2 seconds is a balanced mechanic while being able to use a really expensive magicka skill to purge 2 siege effects is a shoddy game mechanic.
And siege is only ever used by poor little outnumbered pugs vs the evil hordes of TS ball groups.
I've actually seen siege used by Zergballs multiple times..esp Oil...
Anyway are you in anyway afraid of siege right now in a zergball? You can pretty much stand in a ball on top of a flag and take multiple hits with zero threat right now.. The only players who actually suffer from Siege right now is everyone else not having a potato spamming purge in the group.
Edited by Xsorus on December 23, 2017 11:42AMhttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos2 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Snares that can't be removed would have the potential to ruin all kinds of fights, not just those involving large ball groups. No thank you. Though, it is very Wrobel-like, so now I'm scared.0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Snares that can't be removed would have the potential to ruin all kinds of fights, not just those involving large ball groups. No thank you. Though, it is very Wrobel-like, so now I'm scared.
A negative effect that actually does something instead of being rendered irrelevant by instant removal. The horror.0 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Snares that can't be removed would have the potential to ruin all kinds of fights, not just those involving large ball groups. No thank you. Though, it is very Wrobel-like, so now I'm scared.
A negative effect that actually does something instead of being rendered irrelevant by instant removal. The horror.
Another combat function that can't be countered would be horrible, yes. We would see such siege deployed everywhere. I can envision them ruining a lot of good fights that don't involve ball groups.0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Snares that can't be removed would have the potential to ruin all kinds of fights, not just those involving large ball groups. No thank you. Though, it is very Wrobel-like, so now I'm scared.
A negative effect that actually does something instead of being rendered irrelevant by instant removal. The horror.
Another combat function that can't be countered would be horrible, yes. We would see such siege deployed everywhere. I can envision them ruining a lot of good fights that don't involve ball groups.
My warmth passive will actually start doing something. My eruption will actually start doing something. People won't be constantly running around trees at mach 5 like squirrels on crack. My heart bleeds, truly.Edited by Sharee on December 23, 2017 1:11PM0 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Snares that can't be removed would have the potential to ruin all kinds of fights, not just those involving large ball groups. No thank you. Though, it is very Wrobel-like, so now I'm scared.
A negative effect that actually does something instead of being rendered irrelevant by instant removal. The horror.
Another combat function that can't be countered would be horrible, yes. We would see such siege deployed everywhere. I can envision them ruining a lot of good fights that don't involve ball groups.
My warmth passive will actually start doing something. My eruption will actually start doing something. People won't be constantly running around trees at mach 5 like squirrels on crack. My heart bleeds, truly.
Oh, so is this now a nerf ball groups and buff dk thread?0 -
evoprimes✭✭✭Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »Addendum:
Yes, I know there are a LOT of other issues that cause PVP to be in the state it is.
Such as:
1. Lag
2. Low quality rewards
3. Lag
4. Players funneled into laggy, zergy corridors (EG: Bleaks, Alessia Bridge, Ash Gate, etc)
5. Lag
6. Load Screens
7. Lag
8. End of campaign rewards being very low quality
9. Lag
10. Did I mention the lag?
This comment is hilarious. But true.1 -
Drummerx04✭✭✭✭✭
✭Autumnhart wrote: »Drummerx04 wrote: »Vilestride wrote: »I am still confused. Before we go suggesting solutions willy nilly we should probably define the problem properly. Usually that is step one. I am still unclear on the general consensus so I imagine zos is to . Is the problem ball groups? Or is it zergs? Because for starters ball groups are literally the only thing effective against zergs.
To play devils advocate now.....with the lack of a healthy population of ball groups or lack of any being online.....reverse your statement.....Because for starters zergs are literally the only thing effective against ball groups.
This is pretty much the culmination of what a dying Cyrodiil leads too. When a good group is out on a faction, literally the fighting power of the entire faction has effectively doubled or more.
Case in point: My current DC PvP guild was running a group of I think 7-9 players a few nights ago. Kush had taken glade, probably 30+ or so EP running together. They were running over DC for probably 10 minutes before we showed up, lured them into a resource tower and killed all of them. Ultimately this allowed DC to build up and take the keep back.
The really funny thing is that we aren't even role optimized nearly as much as drac, with few purges/rapids, high health builds on just healers, one or two bombers, two healers in earthgore and that's pretty much it. If we can wipe the entire non-trivial defensive force at a keep with 7-9 loosely optimized players, how OP are the fully optimized guild groups that "only" run 16?
And this is where the discussion loops back to Cyrodiil PvP dying. When the presence or lack of presence of a single guild group completely alters the balance of power on the entire map, that both indicates and contributes to the the steady death by 1000 cuts of ESO PvP.
Low population is the base problem. It's easiest to blame other players who do things that annoy, but it's poor game performance and development decisions that withered the population, not zergs or wrecking balls or small groups or solo players or minmaxers or anybody's *** attitude.
That was my point. Since the population is so low, and truly effective guilds are so rare, one large group can dominate the map. This makes the map inherently unfun for anyone on the receiving end. This leads to more people leavingJoy_Division wrote: »The first step to encouraging groups to form is to make running in them and against them dynamic and interesting. However much you may recognize and appreciate the subtitles of how things change form one patch to the next, it still looks like a bunch bots running around spamming PBAoE death.Joy_Division wrote: »Not that I am one to sympathize with ball groups
It's really funny to see this coming from a VE member. So it was completely fine for you to play such kind of style for...how long? 2 years? 3? And now SUDDENLY when your guild died you are so against it, "not one to sympathize" and want it to be nerfed even more just because you are not able/don't want to make a decent group to fight it?
Again, just because you and your friends see it like this after your guild quit it doesn't mean it's the only truth.Drummerx04 wrote: »Cyrodiil doesn't have the population to support the large hardcore organized groups.
As a player within hardcore organized groups which play both on NA and EU, I can tell you that there are always groups to fight. There is always a good population to fight against you just have to go out around the map to find it. Ofc if "the large hardcore organized groups" prefer to faction stack and just zerg one direction with 50 people not knowing anything better than that then it is a problem for sure, I agree.
As mentioned in a previous post in July:
When this was said in July I was surprised not to see VE adapt into smaller groups spread around the map "for the good of the Cyrodiil population" and to have "greater competition to fight against" too based on the views being brought up very regularly these days by multiple members.Tho in this I will admit, VE is a bit of a dinosaur. All the old big guilds we played against for the map and for fights are gone. It is a source of sadness to me that pretty much all the good players left in the game gathered into small guilds and small groups
Drac also has scheduled run times only 3-4 nights a week, I don't think there is a problem there right?Drummerx04 wrote: »[*] Hope there is another group on that can actually fight you head on (my guild has scheduled run times only 3 nights a week)
Again: it's not fun for *you*. When I play in 2-4 Drac man it's always fun for me and people that I play with to hunt and try to derail such groups.Drummerx04 wrote: »^ Those are the options for the average player and even skilled solo players, and none of them are fun.
_
People coming on forums claiming that how they feel about the game is the only truth and only version of facts asking ZOS to nerf things more and more. As the result the game has already been degraded to exactly this stage that so many people hate because groups were nerfed and the knock on effect also hurt every other style: solo, smallscale, organaized groups and simple pug groups.
but yeh.. the problem is only organized group play lets nerf that.
Actually one of my main suggestions was to nerf Earthgore because it's one of the most universally agreed upon OP sets in PvP group play. The next suggestions I made were to actually BUFF purge and rapids to affect people outside your group, prioritizing group members first obviously. That would give pugs a little more of a fighting chance without directly nerfing group skills.
And the VE group had some pretty good opposition when I joined and had come back to DC (when I joined them). There were other guilds to fight in prime time:- EP: Haxus->Drac, PM (under Crow/Nikolai was very effective as a single raid), Invictus
- AD: Fantasia, Dominant Dominion, Dominion Knights, Artem Deorem(?)
- DC: Vehemence, Blood of Daggerfall, Pug Guild, Pugs of Daggerfall (later on)
- Other guilds exist(ed) on each faction, but are/were mostly small group or never really took off
Each faction had pretty much one highly organized group, and supporting pug guilds with varying degrees of organization. That's pretty much why VE disbanded. The competition was just so low and stale. Some of us have banded into another guild, but many of the regular faces are gone.
I'm sure VE would have "adapted to running smaller groups to keep the competition to fight against" right around the time Drac adapted to a less optimized high health setup.
PC/NA - Nightfighters, Raid Leader and Officer
Lilith Arujo - DC sorc tank/dps/healer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, Gryphon Heart, Grand Warlord
Lilith Tortorici - DC templar trials healer
Notable Completions:
vAS (72k), vMoL HM (160k), vAA HM (135k), vHRC HM, vSO HM (141k), vHoF HM (168k), vCR+3(129k), vDSA 45k, vMA 591k
Original Addons:
Lilith's Group Manager
Lilith's Lazy Hacks - Auto Recharge/Repair
Bot Scanner 2000
Lilith's Command History
Maintained Addons:
Kill Counter1 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm sorry the current meta is boring and has no diversity and stam is left in the cold...We all agree there are big issues in PVP but we mainly disagree on the solutions and even the causes... They know there are problems in PVP there has been problems for 3 years..
There will be little to no changes this is what history tells us! I honestly wish a reviewer would nail them for pvp....PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »The first step to encouraging groups to form is to make running in them and against them dynamic and interesting. However much you may recognize and appreciate the subtitles of how things change form one patch to the next, it still looks like a bunch bots running around spamming PBAoE death.Joy_Division wrote: »Not that I am one to sympathize with ball groups
It's really funny to see this coming from a VE member. So it was completely fine for you to play such kind of style for...how long? 2 years? 3? And now SUDDENLY when your guild died you are so against it, "not one to sympathize" and want it to be nerfed even more just because you are not able/don't want to make a decent group to fight it?
I was never fine with this style of play. I partook in it because I am competitive and it's way too effective not to play. Not using it on some moral principle would like a basketball coach refusing to allow his team to shoot three pointers because he disagreed with the rule.
For three years I have posted on these forums that ZoS needed to make these tactics be counter-productive or at least discouraged: AoE caps especially, skills like purge and rapids being restricted to group only, some sort of reform such that 1 regen bot cant just spam rapids/purge and immunize 23 other people, more abilities and ultimate that scale higher the more people are hit, etc. There is no suddenly about it. And no matter what you believe, my guild left (as opposed to "dying") because we got bored, not because we were not able to fight it.
@zyk
So if I don't intentionally use crap gear, crap abilities, crap tactics and run out in Cyrodiil with some role-play build and bang my head against the wall trying to compete against everyone, that makes me a hypocrite? Cognitive dissonance?
Or would you prefer that I come on to these forums and lie through my teeth defending these dumb tactics simply because I use them?
Edited by Joy_Division on December 23, 2017 2:48PM3 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Earthgore silence needs to go ASAP. Kind of stupid that there is an automatic version of an ultimate in negate that also trumps that ultimate. People say you can counter these groups with ultimate-bombs including Negate but all I see is a bunch of “silenced” pop up and everything disappears. Not those EOTSs and procs though.1 -
Autumnhart✭✭✭✭Drummerx04 wrote: »Autumnhart wrote: »Drummerx04 wrote: »Vilestride wrote: »I am still confused. Before we go suggesting solutions willy nilly we should probably define the problem properly. Usually that is step one. I am still unclear on the general consensus so I imagine zos is to . Is the problem ball groups? Or is it zergs? Because for starters ball groups are literally the only thing effective against zergs.
To play devils advocate now.....with the lack of a healthy population of ball groups or lack of any being online.....reverse your statement.....Because for starters zergs are literally the only thing effective against ball groups.
This is pretty much the culmination of what a dying Cyrodiil leads too. When a good group is out on a faction, literally the fighting power of the entire faction has effectively doubled or more.
Case in point: My current DC PvP guild was running a group of I think 7-9 players a few nights ago. Kush had taken glade, probably 30+ or so EP running together. They were running over DC for probably 10 minutes before we showed up, lured them into a resource tower and killed all of them. Ultimately this allowed DC to build up and take the keep back.
The really funny thing is that we aren't even role optimized nearly as much as drac, with few purges/rapids, high health builds on just healers, one or two bombers, two healers in earthgore and that's pretty much it. If we can wipe the entire non-trivial defensive force at a keep with 7-9 loosely optimized players, how OP are the fully optimized guild groups that "only" run 16?
And this is where the discussion loops back to Cyrodiil PvP dying. When the presence or lack of presence of a single guild group completely alters the balance of power on the entire map, that both indicates and contributes to the the steady death by 1000 cuts of ESO PvP.
Low population is the base problem. It's easiest to blame other players who do things that annoy, but it's poor game performance and development decisions that withered the population, not zergs or wrecking balls or small groups or solo players or minmaxers or anybody's *** attitude.
That was my point. Since the population is so low, and truly effective guilds are so rare, one large group can dominate the map. This makes the map inherently unfun for anyone on the receiving end. This leads to more people leaving
Yes. I was agreeing with you. I think this point is too easily overlooked while we're all having Opinions about each other's gameplay choices.
It makes the map inherently unfun for allies too. If the enemy quits the field that's a technical win and an actual loss for people who want to PVP.Shadow hide you.2 -
Rin_Senya✭✭✭✭Drummerx04 wrote: »That was my point. Since the population is so low, and truly effective guilds are so rare, one large group can dominate the map. This makes the map inherently unfun for anyone on the receiving end. This leads to more people leaving
I disagree. The majority of guilds and players have quit ESO not because of "population imbalance" or "too strong opposition" but because of bugs and lag. Saying that organized groups can not run or play anymore because they are too strong is just going to lead to even more people leaving and this game finally will become just one megazerg per faction.
Agreed and our members have said the same on multiple occasions. That's why I say that instead of constantly trying to condemn organized group play it would be much more beneficial to focus on actual broken skills/gear and bugs.Drummerx04 wrote: »Actually one of my main suggestions was to nerf Earthgore because it's one of the most universally agreed upon OP sets in PvP group play. The next suggestions I made were to actually BUFF purge and rapids to affect people outside your group, prioritizing group members first obviously. That would give pugs a little more of a fighting chance without directly nerfing group skills.
All these guilds are still around. And there are actually some more guilds that play in Vivec now, for example Kush, DIG, TM, KoN, LoM, CN etc. Equally at the time you mentioned on EP side both Haxus and Invictus caped at 16 and they were not running every night per week and PM were running pug groups recruited from zone. But anyway as I said all of these guilds that you mentioned above are still playing the game - some more, some less. So I don't understand when you say there is no competition left.Drummerx04 wrote: »And the VE group had some pretty good opposition when I joined and had come back to DC (when I joined them). There were other guilds to fight in prime time:
EP: Haxus->Drac, PM (under Crow/Nikolai was very effective as a single raid), Invictus
AD: Fantasia, Dominant Dominion, Dominion Knights, Artem Deorem(?)
DC: Vehemence, Blood of Daggerfall, Pug Guild, Pugs of Daggerfall (later on)
Other guilds exist(ed) on each faction, but are/were mostly small group or never really took off
So to counter our setups you ran more players?Drummerx04 wrote: »I'm sure VE would have "adapted to running smaller groups to keep the competition to fight against" right around the time Drac adapted to a less optimized high health setup.
thnx for confirming 
Would it have not been easier to run lower numbers with more optimized builds? Rather than ask your opposition to be "weaker?"
Anairi ~ EP | NA | AR50 - Dracarys
Anaire ~ AD/EP | EU | AR50 - Banana Squad/Zerg Squad/AOE Rats1 -
Autumnhart✭✭✭✭
I am fond of saying this game makes hypocrites of us all. That is certainly true of me. I have often felt cognitive dissonance while ranting about something I've done or while doing something I've ranted about -- including running in a ball group using Earthgore. /facepalmIt's really funny to see this coming from a VE member. So it was completely fine for you to play such kind of style for...how long? 2 years? 3? And now SUDDENLY when your guild died you are so against it, "not one to sympathize" and want it to be nerfed even more just because you are not able/don't want to make a decent group to fight it?
Change of position over time based on personal experience is wisdom. It's the people who double down on a bad choice so they don't have to admit it was a bad choice who have something to be embarrassed about.Shadow hide you.1 -
Sanct16✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The frustration about organised groups rises from the feeling that nothing you do really hurts them, I fully understand that it is frustrating to fight a raid while you aren't in a group yourself. However the first problem here is the expectation that you should be able to kill them easily.
You have to look at things in relation: Let's take a 1vXer like kodi for example. What impact do you expect a lv10 guy with white armor to have in a 1vX fight against him? Doesn't really matter what the lv10 does, he will not do very much to him. Now, if you would read a thread like "Omg I'm lv10 and I get rekt by this top player all the time, game is so unfair, nerf everything" I think everyone here would tell him something like "l2p", "get max level", "get better gear", etc.
What you have to understand is if we look at an organised raid, if you're trying to wipe them with a bunch of pugs you are equivalent to the lv10 guy trying to kill kodi. Perhaps you can make an impact that will lead to the death of the raid however you aren't entitled to expect being successful. Just like a strong maxlvl player can ruin kodi's 1vX run another organised group can ruin every guild's farm run. Drac won't be farming ad keeps for long when Fantasia has a similar sized raid trying to stop them. However just like kodi can 1vX even maxlvl players if they aren't good at "dueling", a strong guild can kill even multiple other guilds if these guilds are bad.
Now the question is: Why do we consider kodi 1v4ing people fine but a raid 12v50ing as broken? There hardly is a difference.
Also there really isn't much point to have threads like this. The problem isn't the meta. There is lot of ways to successfully build raids. However, let's imagine kodi was the only guy coming up with 1vX builds and everyone else just copies whatever he plays. Let's say he likes Stamwarden most and exclusively plays it for 5 months. One might say "omg the warden meta is so stale! Nerf Shalk and Dawnbreaker!!!". But the meta is in this case just stale because noone is trying something else, not because there is no other options. It's kinda the same for raidplay. There is almost no innovation because the vast majority of guilds doesn't understand the mechanics well enough. Everyone runs what Zerg Squad or Dracarys come up with. (Possibly an overexxageration so let's not argue about this statement).
If the skills that are important for Stamwarden 1vX would get nerfed, kodi would just play something else and be successful with that too. However then everyone would just run whatever else he would play then in the scenario described above. The reason why there is different builds used in smallscale/1vX is because different people come up with builds for other classes. For groupplay this isn't the case, so if you nerf whatever you want about group play, the new meta will be what the dominant guild on each server comes up with and it will stay like that until this group changes something. The meta will be just as stale and the groups just as dominant.
In order to achieve a variety of group setups, we would need a variety of groups, that are actively trying to improve their setup and their gameplay. However most of the suggested fixes are aiming at making it impossible to be successful as a group, which would just lead to a even more stale meta.
If I was to suggest changes that might be helpful to diversify the meta, I would suggest:
- Change all spammable Magicka PbAoE skills (not including Ultimates) to have 6m radius.
- Revert all damage nerfs to Eye of the Storm but make it cheaper and shorter (smth like 150 Ult with 3 ticks)
- Change Maneuver so a DD focussed build can run it reliably. Maybe just revert it to only break on damage.
- Make synergies great again
These changes would make Stam DDs more viable and create an more interesting dynamic where magicka builds have better burst but stamina has significantly better sustain damage with steel tornado.
- EU - Raid Leader of Banana Zerg Squad
AD | AR 50 | Sanct Fir'eheal | ex Mana DK @31.10.2015
EP | AR 50 | Sanctosaurus | Mana NB
AD | AR 44 | rekt ya | Mana NB
AD | AR 41 | Sanct Thunderstorm | Mana Sorc
EP | AR 36 | S'na'ct | Mana NB {NA}
AD | AR 29 | Captain Full Fist| Stam DK
AD | AR 29 | Sanct The Dark Phoenix| Stam Sorc
EP | AR 16 | Horny Sanct | Stam Warden
EP | AR 16 | Sánct Bánáná Sláyér | Mana DK
DC | AR 13 | ad worst faction eu | Stam Sorc
DC | AR 13 | Lagendary Sanct | Mana NB
>320.000.000 AP8 -
Rin_Senya✭✭✭✭
So where are all your posts condemning this style of play and saying that it looks like "bots running around" etc etc during the time you were playing it?Joy_Division wrote: »I was never fine with this style of play. I partook in it because I am competitive and it's way too effective not to play.
And now since VE have quit you suddenly found your moral principle and fully support removing this style from the game now you don't play it?Joy_Division wrote: »Not using it on some moral principle would like a basketball coach refusing to allow his team to shoot three pointers because he disagreed with the rule.
Are you saying you wanted "purge and rapids being restricted to group only" or not? It's not really clear from how you typed itJoy_Division wrote: »For three years I have posted on these forums that ZoS needed to make these tactics be counter-productive or at least discouraged: AoE caps especially, skills like purge and rapids being restricted to group only, some sort of reform such that 1 regen bot cant just spam rapids/purge and immunize 23 other peopleAnairi ~ EP | NA | AR50 - Dracarys
Anaire ~ AD/EP | EU | AR50 - Banana Squad/Zerg Squad/AOE Rats1 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The frustration about organised groups rises from the feeling that nothing you do really hurts them, I fully understand that it is frustrating to fight a raid while you aren't in a group yourself. However the first problem here is the expectation that you should be able to kill them easily.
You have to look at things in relation: Let's take a 1vXer like kodi for example. What impact do you expect a lv10 guy with white armor to have in a 1vX fight against him? Doesn't really matter what the lv10 does, he will not do very much to him. Now, if you would read a thread like "Omg I'm lv10 and I get rekt by this top player all the time, game is so unfair, nerf everything" I think everyone here would tell him something like "l2p", "get max level", "get better gear", etc.
What you have to understand is if we look at an organised raid, if you're trying to wipe them with a bunch of pugs you are equivalent to the lv10 guy trying to kill kodi. Perhaps you can make an impact that will lead to the death of the raid however you aren't entitled to expect being successful. Just like a strong maxlvl player can ruin kodi's 1vX run another organised group can ruin every guild's farm run. Drac won't be farming ad keeps for long when Fantasia has a similar sized raid trying to stop them. However just like kodi can 1vX even maxlvl players if they aren't good at "dueling", a strong guild can kill even multiple other guilds if these guilds are bad.
Now the question is: Why do we consider kodi 1v4ing people fine but a raid 12v50ing as broken? There hardly is a difference.
Also there really isn't much point to have threads like this. The problem isn't the meta. There is lot of ways to successfully build raids. However, let's imagine kodi was the only guy coming up with 1vX builds and everyone else just copies whatever he plays. Let's say he likes Stamwarden most and exclusively plays it for 5 months. One might say "omg the warden meta is so stale! Nerf Shalk and Dawnbreaker!!!". But the meta is in this case just stale because noone is trying something else, not because there is no other options. It's kinda the same for raidplay. There is almost no innovation because the vast majority of guilds doesn't understand the mechanics well enough. Everyone runs what Zerg Squad or Dracarys come up with. (Possibly an overexxageration so let's not argue about this statement).
If the skills that are important for Stamwarden 1vX would get nerfed, kodi would just play something else and be successful with that too. However then everyone would just run whatever else he would play then in the scenario described above. The reason why there is different builds used in smallscale/1vX is because different people come up with builds for other classes. For groupplay this isn't the case, so if you nerf whatever you want about group play, the new meta will be what the dominant guild on each server comes up with and it will stay like that until this group changes something. The meta will be just as stale and the groups just as dominant.
In order to achieve a variety of group setups, we would need a variety of groups, that are actively trying to improve their setup and their gameplay. However most of the suggested fixes are aiming at making it impossible to be successful as a group, which would just lead to a even more stale meta.
If I was to suggest changes that might be helpful to diversify the meta, I would suggest:
- Change all spammable Magicka PbAoE skills (not including Ultimates) to have 6m radius.
- Revert all damage nerfs to Eye of the Storm but make it cheaper and shorter (smth like 150 Ult with 3 ticks)
- Change Maneuver so a DD focussed build can run it reliably. Maybe just revert it to only break on damage.
- Make synergies great again
These changes would make Stam DDs more viable and create an more interesting dynamic where magicka builds have better burst but stamina has significantly better sustain damage with steel tornado.
This post. /thread
Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on December 23, 2017 4:34PM@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)0 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
So where are all your posts condemning this style of play and saying that it looks like "bots running around" etc etc during the time you were playing it?Joy_Division wrote: »I was never fine with this style of play. I partook in it because I am competitive and it's way too effective not to play.
And now since VE have quit you suddenly found your moral principle and fully support removing this style from the game now you don't play it?Joy_Division wrote: »Not using it on some moral principle would like a basketball coach refusing to allow his team to shoot three pointers because he disagreed with the rule.
Are you saying you wanted "purge and rapids being restricted to group only" or not? It's not really clear from how you typed itJoy_Division wrote: »For three years I have posted on these forums that ZoS needed to make these tactics be counter-productive or at least discouraged: AoE caps especially, skills like purge and rapids being restricted to group only, some sort of reform such that 1 regen bot cant just spam rapids/purge and immunize 23 other people
Joy has been making posts on this stuff for years while running with VE. It's not his fault you never bothered to read them.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost6 -
Rainraven✭✭✭✭✭Everyone runs what Zerg Squad or Dracarys come up with. (Possibly an overexxageration so let's not argue about this statement).
K, I won't argue. I'll just sit here and be amazed at the amount of ego a single forum thread can hold without imploding from the gravity crush.
As for your metaphor, if Kodi LOSing six blues at a tower had far-reaching consequences, he'd probably get some scrutiny too.2 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Everyone runs what Zerg Squad or Dracarys come up with. (Possibly an overexxageration so let's not argue about this statement).
K, I won't argue. I'll just sit here and be amazed at the amount of ego a single forum thread can hold without imploding from the gravity crush.
As for your metaphor, if Kodi LOSing six blues at a tower had far-reaching consequences, he'd probably get some scrutiny too.
Did everyone really start running Plague Doctor specs? That's sounds like the most fun since we invented coal mining.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost3 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
So where are all your posts condemning this style of play and saying that it looks like "bots running around" etc etc during the time you were playing it?Joy_Division wrote: »I was never fine with this style of play. I partook in it because I am competitive and it's way too effective not to play.
Yes. You may defend dumb tactics simply because you use them, I don't.
And now since VE have quit you suddenly found your moral principle and fully support removing this style from the game now you don't play it?Joy_Division wrote: »Not using it on some moral principle would like a basketball coach refusing to allow his team to shoot three pointers because he disagreed with the rule.
What I am typing is not hard to understand. I have fully supported removing this style of game from the very beginning, all the way back when I balled up in TSYM back in in summer 2014. Me being in or not in a guild has nothing to do with what I think makes for good PvP.
Yes, I used these tactics because I am competitive. It doesn't mean I liked them, doesn't mean I thought they made for compelling PvP, doesn't mean I thought ZoS could have done better, doesn't mean it wasn't frustrating, doesn't mean I wanted ZoS to support them.
You seem to be under the impression simply because I joined a competitive guild that somehow, someway, I supported these tactics and found them compelling, dynamic, interesting, or that they should be buffed, upheld, and become the norm. No. Nada. Nyet. Nein. Nope. Not a chance.
Are you saying you wanted "purge and rapids being restricted to group only" or not? It's not really clear from how you typed itJoy_Division wrote: »For three years I have posted on these forums that ZoS needed to make these tactics be counter-productive or at least discouraged: AoE caps especially, skills like purge and rapids being restricted to group only, some sort of reform such that 1 regen bot cant just spam rapids/purge and immunize 23 other people
Purge and rapids should not be restricted to groups.
Edited by Joy_Division on December 23, 2017 5:46PM2 -
Rin_Senya✭✭✭✭Joy has been making posts on this stuff for years while running with VE. It's not his fault you never bothered to read them.
Joy might have been posting thousands of comments for years. But don't compare some random suggestions and comments that dedicated to actual bugs and issues of the game (some of them were actually good) to constant recent insults against organized group game play. Here are some examples from just this thread:Joy_Division wrote: »strict ball-group stack on crown group that looks and play like bots and a loose group of 24 players who don't run nearly as tight and don't look like ducklings following their mother.Joy_Division wrote: »The organized bot like pain trainsJoy_Division wrote: »people such as yourself may appreciate stack-on-crown organized play and no matter how much skill it takes to play well, a lot of people who play this game can't stand that bot like style.Joy_Division wrote: »Perceptions matter; these ball-groups don't seem to have any intricate strategy other than just blobbing together and brute forcing things with AoE skills.Joy_Division wrote: »me as someone who used to ball-group with the best of them, I don't want to see them.Joy_Division wrote: »ball-group is just going to have 1 member mindless spamming rapids to make them immune to something that counters - effectively - the rest of us peons and puga? <...> to have one person whose sole function is just to spam one button that makes the entire group immune to a fundamental mechanics of roots and snares the rest of us have to suffer and make allowances in our builds. Purge-bot, rapids monkey, it just seems mindless. It's why people don't like it.Joy_Division wrote: »the basic mechanics that have always been and still are super effect: stack on crown and overwhelm with mass coordinated PBAoEs. The means and mechanics have changed in the delivery of those PBAoEs, yet it still resembles just a bunch of bots following the same path. It's that same old stack-on-crown pain train that I believe is the source of the many frustrations with "destro-bomb groups."Joy_Division wrote: »it still looks like a bunch bots running around spamming PBAoE death.
What I am typing is not hard to understand. If you don't like people constantly throwing rubbish on your street you don't go there throwing more rubbish just because "other people do it" and then stand in the middle of the road just after you emptied your bag shouting "OMG this is so baaaad, no one should do it!". You just simply don't do it yourself.
Anairi ~ EP | NA | AR50 - Dracarys
Anaire ~ AD/EP | EU | AR50 - Banana Squad/Zerg Squad/AOE Rats1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What I am typing is not hard to understand. If you don't like people constantly throwing rubbish on your street you don't go there throwing more rubbish just because "other people do it" and then stand in the middle of the road just after you emptied your bag shouting "OMG this is so baaaad, no one should do it!". You just simply don't do it yourself.
That's a bad analogy.
You do not have to throw rubbish on street to succeed at crossing it.
You do have to use a destro pain train if you want to succeed at beating other groups doing the same.Edited by Sharee on December 23, 2017 10:14PM8
