The Current Destro Pain Train Meta Needs To Die

Anazasi

Vilestride wrote: »

I am still confused. Before we go suggesting solutions willy nilly we should probably define the problem properly. Usually that is step one. I am still unclear on the general consensus so I imagine zos is to . Is the problem ball groups? Or is it zergs? Because for starters ball groups are literally the only thing effective against zergs.

And what happens when you place the ball group inside the zerg? How does that help the health of the community? It's like handing a loaded gun to a teenager and telling them don't play with it.

Vilestride

Anazasi wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

I am still confused. Before we go suggesting solutions willy nilly we should probably define the problem properly. Usually that is step one. I am still unclear on the general consensus so I imagine zos is to . Is the problem ball groups? Or is it zergs? Because for starters ball groups are literally the only thing effective against zergs.

And what happens when you place the ball group inside the zerg? How does that help the health of the community? It's like handing a loaded gun to a teenager and telling them don't play with it.

I agree that is worse and should be avoided as often as possible.

asneakybanana

Autumnhart wrote: »

Sorry but not surprised to see that sportsmanship isn't going to get a more thorough discussion. If that's not a factor at all in your decisions as an elite player of any game, you're doing it wrong.

[Edited to clarify that last comment is general and not aimed at the people quoted.]

Honestly what do you think would help make organized groups have better sportsmanship? Many of these groups already try to separate themselves from their faction to try and alleviate some of their faction's stacking tendencies. Do you want them to gut their group to be less effective? Or maybe simply just not play? Not trying to be cynical, but many of these groups are always willing to lend a hand in helping other groups learn and improve but I think intentionally overly weakening yourself to make it so the enemies have a fighting chance isn't exactly great sportsmanship either so I would love to hear your suggestions and im sure drac will listen and possibly even implement them if they are good.

Ghost-Shot

Ghostbane wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

People stopped zerg balling

Sure they did. I mean everyday in Cyrodiil prior to the oil catapult change was solo's spread out across the field evenly 8m apart from the next because of the fear of the snare. Once that change happened Cyrodiil took possibly the hardest hit since the dark days of zero cost bats and launch DK's. But what about DAoC? I mean I'm unsure how I should feel since you haven't mentioned DAoC at all lately. @Ghost-Shot who is this even?

First I've heard of them.

Hail and well met!

Did someone say DAOC???

zyk

asneakybanana wrote: »

Honestly what do you think would help make organized groups have better sportsmanship? Many of these groups already try to separate themselves from their faction to try and alleviate some of their faction's stacking tendencies. Do you want them to gut their group to be less effective? Or maybe simply just not play? Not trying to be cynical, but many of these groups are always willing to lend a hand in helping other groups learn and improve but I think intentionally overly weakening yourself to make it so the enemies have a fighting chance isn't exactly great sportsmanship either so I would love to hear your suggestions and im sure drac will listen and possibly even implement them if they are good.

The arguments in this thread have appeared in different forms over the years, but I think almost everyone recognizes the health of AvA is now at an all time low. I think it's in the best interest of everyone involved to consider the bigger picture and to show restraint sometimes.

While there are times when AD has guilds and experienced players running, there are also times when most of the faction is too casual to get off the walls to fight. For entire nights, keep defenses will consist of 1-5 players trying to take the fight off the wall while there are 30+ who don't feel comfortable enough with combat to get off the wall to fight one opposition group that hasn't even gotten siege up yet. When AD is like this, the only thing you are teaching those casual players is that AvA might not be the game for them.

As Drac says they love playing ESO and want to see AvA grow, I think it would be in your best interest to recognize when an opposition faction is in this state and show restraint. If I was in your position, I might consider running smaller or maybe multiple smaller groups.

There have been times on PC/NA/Vivec when DC has Chal and Roe, AD has no decent groups on and is in wall-fighting mode, but Drac and other EP groups continue to push south for hours. Maybe during these times Drac could consider pushing the faction that is strongest at that time instead of the one that is weakest. Or at least take Chal back. Just by re-opening the Bleaker's corridor, you would take pressure off the south.

I also want to say I don't write these things for my own benefit. I can be independent and find my own fights, even if my faction is down. Though, I do feel a responsibility to help my teammates. I am concerned about the health of the game as I feel it's at a breaking point. AD might already be broken with so many formerly diehard AD playing for EP or DC now.

maxjapank

zyk wrote: »

While there are times when AD has guilds and experienced players running, there are also times when most of the faction is too casual to get off the walls to fight. For entire nights, keep defenses will consist of 1-5 players trying to take the fight off the wall while there are 30+ who don't feel comfortable enough with combat to get off the wall to fight one opposition group that hasn't even gotten siege up yet. When AD is like this, the only thing you are teaching those casual players is that AvA might not be the game for them.

This is just a personal observation when playing in NA prime time. ( I am Oceanic. ) But, AD does not have enough healers. I joined a fight at Roe the other day that was being swarmed by DC. I decided to use my healing set up. And the only other real healer was a player named Anti-fusion. But between the two of us, we were able to pretty much keep players up. And with that, they gained confidence and began to push back and we saved Roe. Healing Springs seems to be forgotten by many outside of guild groups. So many players are choosing specs that are solely personal, which while good for them is not able to help against other guild groups or in large-scale battles.

p.s. special shout out to Psy as well. Another healer that consistently is keep everyone alive.

pieratsos

maxjapank wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

To me organised PVP would involve something like strategic gameplay, good coordination and actual player skill. Maybe something like buff up together, help each other in difficult situations with synergies and such, split up and each player using the advantages of the class to do a specific job. Maybe something like nightblades sneaking behind siegers and taking them out.

I can't speak for other guilds. But contrary to what others may believe, this is exactly what my guild does. We do have roles within our group, but we make the most of group sets and skills to support the group. Group synergy is always theory crafted and adjusted. We may not have the most skilled 1vx'rs ( there are a few ), but as a group, we excel.

But I'd assume that most organized guilds are exactly the same. They may pick up new players, but to be successful against large numbers, they have to have a core group.

But as I said, this is contrary to what many believe. Mainly because lots of players have never run with a solid pvp guild. But I welcome them to try it out. They'd be surprised just how much coordination, teamwork, and communication is going on.

Organized PVP is not even close to that. When i am talking about players playing the classes i mean actually playing them as they were designed. NB sneaking behind players, DKs/templars in the middle of the fights taking the heat, sorcs streaking all over the place etc. Not moving all together like a ball crunching on stupid mechanics. The only thing that comes remotely close to that is when you group a few good solo players with their solo open world builds. But even them when they actually want to do better as a group they will form a ball and start crunching on those same stupid mechanics because these days is either that or gtfo. Which is why i said even that small good PVP that exists is getting lost in poor game design, zergs and all the dumb stuff.

Ghostbane

Autumnhart

asneakybanana wrote: »

Autumnhart wrote: »

Sorry but not surprised to see that sportsmanship isn't going to get a more thorough discussion. If that's not a factor at all in your decisions as an elite player of any game, you're doing it wrong.

[Edited to clarify that last comment is general and not aimed at the people quoted.]

Honestly what do you think would help make organized groups have better sportsmanship? Many of these groups already try to separate themselves from their faction to try and alleviate some of their faction's stacking tendencies. Do you want them to gut their group to be less effective? Or maybe simply just not play? Not trying to be cynical, but many of these groups are always willing to lend a hand in helping other groups learn and improve but I think intentionally overly weakening yourself to make it so the enemies have a fighting chance isn't exactly great sportsmanship either so I would love to hear your suggestions and im sure drac will listen and possibly even implement them if they are good.

I have no opinion about the current level of sportsmanship in organized groups. Does it need to be bettered? My opinion is that players in general don't give it enough thought, and this seemed confirmed when that branch of this thread went nowhere. On reflection, it's just as likely people realized there's too much mutual dislike in this small space to make that a productive conversation.

maxjapank

pieratsos wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

To me organised PVP would involve something like strategic gameplay, good coordination and actual player skill. Maybe something like buff up together, help each other in difficult situations with synergies and such, split up and each player using the advantages of the class to do a specific job. Maybe something like nightblades sneaking behind siegers and taking them out.

I can't speak for other guilds. But contrary to what others may believe, this is exactly what my guild does. We do have roles within our group, but we make the most of group sets and skills to support the group. Group synergy is always theory crafted and adjusted. We may not have the most skilled 1vx'rs ( there are a few ), but as a group, we excel.

But I'd assume that most organized guilds are exactly the same. They may pick up new players, but to be successful against large numbers, they have to have a core group.

But as I said, this is contrary to what many believe. Mainly because lots of players have never run with a solid pvp guild. But I welcome them to try it out. They'd be surprised just how much coordination, teamwork, and communication is going on.

Organized PVP is not even close to that. When i am talking about players playing the classes i mean actually playing them as they were designed. NB sneaking behind players, DKs/templars in the middle of the fights taking the heat, sorcs streaking all over the place etc. Not moving all together like a ball crunching on stupid mechanics. The only thing that comes remotely close to that is when you group a few good solo players with their solo open world builds. But even them when they actually want to do better as a group they will form a ball and start crunching on those same stupid mechanics because these days is either that or gtfo. Which is why i said even that small good PVP that exists is getting lost in poor game design, zergs and all the dumb stuff.

Have you ever run with a good guild pvp group? Or are you basing your opinion from what you think?

pieratsos

maxjapank wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

To me organised PVP would involve something like strategic gameplay, good coordination and actual player skill. Maybe something like buff up together, help each other in difficult situations with synergies and such, split up and each player using the advantages of the class to do a specific job. Maybe something like nightblades sneaking behind siegers and taking them out.

I can't speak for other guilds. But contrary to what others may believe, this is exactly what my guild does. We do have roles within our group, but we make the most of group sets and skills to support the group. Group synergy is always theory crafted and adjusted. We may not have the most skilled 1vx'rs ( there are a few ), but as a group, we excel.

But I'd assume that most organized guilds are exactly the same. They may pick up new players, but to be successful against large numbers, they have to have a core group.

But as I said, this is contrary to what many believe. Mainly because lots of players have never run with a solid pvp guild. But I welcome them to try it out. They'd be surprised just how much coordination, teamwork, and communication is going on.

Organized PVP is not even close to that. When i am talking about players playing the classes i mean actually playing them as they were designed. NB sneaking behind players, DKs/templars in the middle of the fights taking the heat, sorcs streaking all over the place etc. Not moving all together like a ball crunching on stupid mechanics. The only thing that comes remotely close to that is when you group a few good solo players with their solo open world builds. But even them when they actually want to do better as a group they will form a ball and start crunching on those same stupid mechanics because these days is either that or gtfo. Which is why i said even that small good PVP that exists is getting lost in poor game design, zergs and all the dumb stuff.

Have you ever run with a good guild pvp group? Or are you basing your opinion from what you think?

Yes i have run with good guilds but im not even sure what are u even trying to say here. You are literally trying to tell me that organised PVP doesnt involve ball groups which is kinda silly. It would be something like trying to convince me that the sky isnt blue.

Its either that or you just dont understand what i even said in the first place. You probably believe that having a sorc in ur group for negates and roots for example is what i mean when i say "play the class as its meant to be played". This is not what i meant and i already explained.

Autumnhart

Vilestride wrote: »

Autumnhart wrote: »

Sorry but not surprised to see that sportsmanship isn't going to get a more thorough discussion. If that's not a factor at all in your decisions as an elite player of any game, you're doing it wrong.

[Edited to clarify that last comment is general and not aimed at the people quoted.]

I would also be happy to discuss sportsmanship further. Are there any specific points previously made you would like to go over more thoroughly? If we were to again prioritise factors that have lead us to this point in the game, I would place our communities culture and sportsmanship higher on the list than destro ult as a destructive factor, So I agree, it warrants discussion.

Thank you, I think I understand your general position.

Vilestride wrote: »

Maybe we come from different schools of thought but I have never interpreted good sportsmanship to be the gaming equivalent of "go easy on them", personally, I would find this far more disrespectful.

Strawman.

Vilestride wrote: »

In the context of lesser experienced players good sportsmanship to me would mean treating them as equals, which inherently they are. So long as you respect their effort to challenge you and are willing to offer advice if they seek it after a loss then the figurative good sportsmanship box is ticked.

Ok.

Vilestride wrote: »

...it's not as if Drac, or any guild in this game is the reason anyone stops playing (again if it is, I'll take it as a compliment)

Clear.

maxjapank

pieratsos wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

To me organised PVP would involve something like strategic gameplay, good coordination and actual player skill. Maybe something like buff up together, help each other in difficult situations with synergies and such, split up and each player using the advantages of the class to do a specific job. Maybe something like nightblades sneaking behind siegers and taking them out.

I can't speak for other guilds. But contrary to what others may believe, this is exactly what my guild does. We do have roles within our group, but we make the most of group sets and skills to support the group. Group synergy is always theory crafted and adjusted. We may not have the most skilled 1vx'rs ( there are a few ), but as a group, we excel.

But I'd assume that most organized guilds are exactly the same. They may pick up new players, but to be successful against large numbers, they have to have a core group.

But as I said, this is contrary to what many believe. Mainly because lots of players have never run with a solid pvp guild. But I welcome them to try it out. They'd be surprised just how much coordination, teamwork, and communication is going on.

Organized PVP is not even close to that. When i am talking about players playing the classes i mean actually playing them as they were designed. NB sneaking behind players, DKs/templars in the middle of the fights taking the heat, sorcs streaking all over the place etc. Not moving all together like a ball crunching on stupid mechanics. The only thing that comes remotely close to that is when you group a few good solo players with their solo open world builds. But even them when they actually want to do better as a group they will form a ball and start crunching on those same stupid mechanics because these days is either that or gtfo. Which is why i said even that small good PVP that exists is getting lost in poor game design, zergs and all the dumb stuff.

Have you ever run with a good guild pvp group? Or are you basing your opinion from what you think?

Yes i have run with good guilds but im not even sure what are u even trying to say here. You are literally trying to tell me that organised PVP doesnt involve ball groups which is kinda silly. It would be something like trying to convince me that the sky isnt blue.

Its either that or you just dont understand what i even said in the first place. You probably believe that having a sorc in ur group for negates and roots for example is what i mean when i say "play the class as its meant to be played". This is not what i meant and i already explained.

Or it could be that you don't really understand what a good pvp guild group does. Players like to throw out "ball group" as if it is something negative. Sound like a streamer who loved to use the expression "ball group" and yet was often observed zerg surfing said "ball groups." Good guilds are gonna run together in close proximity. Small groups are going to stick together, too. Our sets and abilities make our group strong. And so many players, including you, don't really know the amount of teamwork that goes into making the group effective. It isn't just spamming one skill. As I healer, I may spam Healing Springs more than everything else (because that is the best heal outside of bubbles), but every skill on my bars in used and there for a purpose. Cryodiil was built for large-scale battles. It"s not one large dueling area.

pieratsos

maxjapank wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

To me organised PVP would involve something like strategic gameplay, good coordination and actual player skill. Maybe something like buff up together, help each other in difficult situations with synergies and such, split up and each player using the advantages of the class to do a specific job. Maybe something like nightblades sneaking behind siegers and taking them out.

I can't speak for other guilds. But contrary to what others may believe, this is exactly what my guild does. We do have roles within our group, but we make the most of group sets and skills to support the group. Group synergy is always theory crafted and adjusted. We may not have the most skilled 1vx'rs ( there are a few ), but as a group, we excel.

But I'd assume that most organized guilds are exactly the same. They may pick up new players, but to be successful against large numbers, they have to have a core group.

But as I said, this is contrary to what many believe. Mainly because lots of players have never run with a solid pvp guild. But I welcome them to try it out. They'd be surprised just how much coordination, teamwork, and communication is going on.

Organized PVP is not even close to that. When i am talking about players playing the classes i mean actually playing them as they were designed. NB sneaking behind players, DKs/templars in the middle of the fights taking the heat, sorcs streaking all over the place etc. Not moving all together like a ball crunching on stupid mechanics. The only thing that comes remotely close to that is when you group a few good solo players with their solo open world builds. But even them when they actually want to do better as a group they will form a ball and start crunching on those same stupid mechanics because these days is either that or gtfo. Which is why i said even that small good PVP that exists is getting lost in poor game design, zergs and all the dumb stuff.

Have you ever run with a good guild pvp group? Or are you basing your opinion from what you think?

Yes i have run with good guilds but im not even sure what are u even trying to say here. You are literally trying to tell me that organised PVP doesnt involve ball groups which is kinda silly. It would be something like trying to convince me that the sky isnt blue.

Its either that or you just dont understand what i even said in the first place. You probably believe that having a sorc in ur group for negates and roots for example is what i mean when i say "play the class as its meant to be played". This is not what i meant and i already explained.

Or it could be that you don't really understand what a good pvp guild group does. Players like to throw out "ball group" as if it is something negative. Sound like a streamer who loved to use the expression "ball group" and yet was often observed zerg surfing said "ball groups." Good guilds are gonna run together in close proximity. Small groups are going to stick together, too. Our sets and abilities make our group strong. And so many players, including you, don't really know the amount of teamwork that goes into making the group effective. It isn't just spamming one skill. As I healer, I may spam Healing Springs more than everything else (because that is the best heal outside of bubbles), but every skill on my bars in used and there for a purpose. Cryodiil was built for large-scale battles. It"s not one large dueling area.

1) That was my opinion of what organised PVP should be which clearly isnt even close to what we have today. I still have no clue why you quoted my comment when its prety clear that what i said is a million miles away from what we have today.

2)Ive played solo small scale and in those groups. The amount of skill required in those groups compared to anything else isnt even remotely close. It was the easiest AP i ever made and i wasnt even trying. And that was in a group of 10-12 people. If we go up to 16-24 then i could prob run naked not doing anything and still getting carried.

3) As far as ur opinion of what we have today being good, then im gonna have to politely say that u are wrong. Its not good, and thats not even a debate. You are in the 21st page of a thread discussing those groups and if there is one thing that everyone agree on, is how bad this gameplay is, how the performance is trash because of it, how PVP is dying and how it needs to change. Even those that do play in those groups have basically said that they hate it. You are in the minority here, not the majority.

4) Ill quote this from a different thread

pieratsos wrote: »

And sorry to say this, but this "cyro was created for large scale so you shouldnt be able to small scale" bs is getting old. Like really old. No one is asking for cyro to be designed around small scale. Thats just a dumb idea that you put in ur head for whatever reason. What you fail to understand is the idea behind solo - small scale. Which is outplay ur opponents using ur skill. If solo - small scale doesnt exist its because the gameplay is a skilless mindless zerg fest that only boils down to numbers. So yeah it is a joke.

maxjapank

pieratsos wrote: »

2)Ive played solo small scale and in those groups. The amount of skill required in those groups compared to anything else isnt even remotely close. It was the easiest AP i ever made and i wasnt even trying.

Then I'm afraid your experience playing in pvp groups sounds limited. Fighting twice your numbers, even triple sometimes, isn't always easy. Fighting against other good groups is very much a team effort, and there is a lot of skill involved. I'm sorry. But you just don't know.

pieratsos wrote: »

3) As far as ur opinion of what we have today being good, then im gonna have to politely say that u are wrong.

Or maybe you are wrong and it's time for you to move on. This isn't the first time I've see you on the forums. You consistently complain. And you gotta ask yourself, if it's that bad and you aren't enjoying it, then why are you here?

pieratsos

@maxjapank

If you think PVP is heading into the right direction then u are probably playing a different game.

There is a big difference between complaining/whining and trying to make the game better but i can understand how someone that thinks this kind of PVP is good cant tell the difference between the two. Some of us have been here way longer than u have and we have seen the game at a much better state than this sh*t we have today.

Population is going down patch after patch after patch, gameplay is getting worse patch after patch after patch. At some point you gotta ask urself, if it was so good as u say it is, then why is this happening? Why do threads like this even exist? Why do devs say that they are trying to discourage that type of gameplay? Why at some point devs literally said, guys split up if u dont want to lag?

maxjapank

pieratsos wrote: »

@maxjapank

If you think PVP is heading into the right direction then u are probably playing a different game.

There is a big difference between complaining/whining and trying to make the game better but i can understand how someone that thinks this kind of PVP is good cant tell the difference between the two. Some of us have been here way longer than u have and we have seen the game at a much better state than this sh*t we have today.

Population is going down patch after patch after patch, gameplay is getting worse patch after patch after patch. At some point you gotta ask urself, if it was so good as u say it is, then why is this happening? Why do threads like this even exist? Why do devs say that they are trying to discourage that type of gameplay? Why at some point devs literally said, guys split up if u dont want to lag?

Lol. Again with the “I know it all” condescending attitude. But one fact remains. I’m still having a good time and so is the majority of my guild. And been here since the beginning. So I guess you can shove that “some of us have been here way longer than you have” crap up your....

I’m not claiming the game is in a perfect state. I’m just stating that you really don’t have much experience playing in a really good pvp guild group. So when you comment on said play as skillless, you don’t know what you are talking about.

pieratsos

maxjapank wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

@maxjapank

If you think PVP is heading into the right direction then u are probably playing a different game.

There is a big difference between complaining/whining and trying to make the game better but i can understand how someone that thinks this kind of PVP is good cant tell the difference between the two. Some of us have been here way longer than u have and we have seen the game at a much better state than this sh*t we have today.

Population is going down patch after patch after patch, gameplay is getting worse patch after patch after patch. At some point you gotta ask urself, if it was so good as u say it is, then why is this happening? Why do threads like this even exist? Why do devs say that they are trying to discourage that type of gameplay? Why at some point devs literally said, guys split up if u dont want to lag?

Lol. Again with the “I know it all” condescending attitude. But one fact remains. I’m still having a good time and so is the majority of my guild. And been here since the beginning. So I guess you can shove that “some of us have been here way longer than you have” crap up your....

I’m not claiming the game is in a perfect state. I’m just stating that you really don’t have much experience playing in a really good pvp guild group. So when you comment on said play as skillless, you don’t know what you are talking about.

So ive done every kind of PVP and i dont know what im talking about but u with the perspective of only group play do know? Have you actually been paying attention to what people say in this thread? It seems that you are the one who doesnt know what ur talking about. Especially when u literally said that in ur group there are not many people who are good at 1vX. 1vX is dependant on player skill mostly. You are contradicting your own arguments here.

And thats not even the point. Im not arguing about whether people in those groups are skilled or not. Im talking about what those groups actually do.

I dont pretend to know it all. I never said that. Im just stating actual facts. Population is going down and gameplay is getting worse. Threads like that about the state of pvp do pop every day. PVP health is at an all time low. The devs did say those things. Those are red flags of things heading the wrong way.

So before you accuse people of "know it all" bs u better look at urself cause u are the one with the attitude " i have fun" therefore everyone do.

Choosing to ignore facts doesnt mean they dont exist.

Joy_Division

Autumnhart wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Now the question is: Why do we consider kodi 1v4ing people fine but a raid 12v50ing as broken? There hardly is a difference.

Actually there is a huge difference. Knowing that ur skill matters, doing the best u can but still losing to someone because he is simply better and u got outplayed is one thing. Thats totally acceptable. You can get better, put on better gear as well and take him on again. But feeling helpless and not being able to do absolutely anything not because u are not good enough but because of stupid mechanics unless u bring more numbers to use those same stupid mechanics is a very different story.

I mean what's the difference between getting better, wearing better gear and learning to not get outplayed again vs. one person or vs 12-16? You could get a 12-16 man group together and get coordinated and wear the proper gear setups and you can beat the organized groups and stop getting out played. Instead of just making yourself better it's making your group better though. It's your choice to play solo instead of with an organized group.

You are not getting outplayed by those groups. That is literally the point. Im sorry but spamming one button isnt exactly what i would call "outplay" people.

You are not making urself or ur group better. You are just making ur group bigger and abuse the same stupid mechanics they do to be able to face them.

If you just wanted to make yourself bigger why not just run like 50+ ND just light attack? Organized groups is about taking x number of people, usually 12 or 14 and designing the best possible group around that and then any 2 or 4 extras bringing it to 16 can be a flex role to help the group. If you ran a 12 man that ran a group comp and theory crafted the way these groups do you could make a group that could be competitive rather than being outplayed. As has been said many times, the problem with organized groups right now is the lack of them and therefore the lack of things to counter the remaining organized groups. If you want to counter a 1vx player you learn the skills to 1vx and play to a similar level as them, therefore if you want to counter an organized group you need to learn the skills to counter an organized group. There honestly needs to be more organized groups in cyro to make it a healthier place this way groups.like drac and Fantasia have a true counter.

I dont want to group up and do the same stuff just to be able to fight them and i shouldnt have to do that. Especially when that thing is so braindead and boring. I dont want to kill them. I dont even expect to kill them. Im just looking for actual enjoyable fights no matter what playstyle i choose. And when i end up being outnumbered, at least i want to be able to have a good fight whether i win or die. It used to work that way, it doesnt work that way anymore. Now its either ball up or gtfo .

So no, the issue isnt that there are not enough of those groups. The issue is that they even exist in that form. And the fact that gameplay is such a joke, is the reason why there are not enough people in the first place and why the population is getting smaller every patch. And to make it a little more simple, ill just post this.

Xsorus wrote: »

Also having dedicated roles in a group isn’t bad... but when your zerg reaches a point where you have a dedicated person spamming rapids... you’ve gone full potato.

I don't disagree that organized groups are overly strong and hard to counter right now it's part of the reason I don't enjoy eso much anymore and have been playing destiny 2 recently. However, I feel as though this isn't a new thing in eso,. I remember taking 12-16 players and farming for as long as I can remember. Groups like alacrity and no mercy were the best at launch and essentially did what we do. They were guilds that didn't just control the flow of PvP in the main campaign they controlled it in multiple campaigns and often held off literally hundreds of players who organized to "raid" their campaign and try to dethrone their emp. Some of these players reigned for 2+ months because there was almost nothing that could take them down. But no one complained then because there was actually competition between similarly skilled guilds and now that has mostly gone away. Sure there's still some but there's less and less.

All that said, organized groups will always have an advantage over solo players and pugs of equal or even greater numbers. A group that is constantly striving to improve and be the best they can be. You quote the thing about people dedicated to spamming rapids but look at 1.6-2.6 with Sometimes a quarter or more of some groups just running builds to endlessly spamming bombard, especially after thieves guild patch where rapids was nerfed and it made roots extremely strong. This led to the rise of the rapid maneuver spam roles as instead of having 1 rapids and being able to move while healing you now dropped rapids as soon as you casted anything.

I personally would love to see this meta turned on it's head, not just DMG such as eots but everything about it and have groups figure it out from there. However even if that happened I fear we would get to the same issue were having right now where there is simply just no competition to stop these organized groups from fighting 3x or more of their numbers of less organized players and the simple unwillingness of other players to try and push their groups to this level of play is going to allow this to happen. It doesn't matter what is done but groups like dracarys will always be able fight extremely outnumbered and the only thing that will counter them is a group willing to be just as organized. I personally believe there are hard counters to destro ult groups now but it requires 12+ people willing to run a designated spec and that may be hard with EG right now but I still believe it is possible.

Tl;Dr I feel groups are overly strong but groups have always been this way and they are perhaps not even the strongest they've ever been. Bombard spam and maneuvers change created these dedicated rapid spammer roles to counter that. Organized groups will always only be able to be taken out in equal numbers by other organized groups or else 3x their numbers of pugs.

There is a parallel between "organized group play" and another powerful advantage: stealth. It's hard to balance, and there have been times stealth and invisibility have been too powerful and too much a factor in open world PVP. ZOS helps out by repeatedly screwing up cloak, but there are also a lot more legit counters to stealth now. Proc sets took a blanket nerf because some of my sneaky brothers couldn't resist maximum cheese. These changes were necessary improvements that had to be made by the devs at a gameplay level. "Just slot magelight," wasn't a good enough solution.

***

Sorry but not surprised to see that sportsmanship isn't going to get a more thorough discussion. If that's not a factor at all in your decisions as an elite player of any game, you're doing it wrong.

[Edited to clarify that last comment is general and not aimed at the people quoted.]

I can only speak for myself and the groups that I have run with.

I try to always play respectfully to everyone in Cyrodiil. Even, usually, to those people who dislike me and go out of their way to ulti bomb me and chase me around the map.

I'm sure a lot of people are going to read that and laugh thinking what I just typed is nonsense.

The problem is one of perception. Just because I try to play respectfully, doesn't mean I always succeed.

• Sometimes I didn't notice I had numerous allies in the area.
• Sometimes I feel that resource or area is strategically important to take a castle and I feel the right thing to do is help the alliance by not allowing an enemy player to disrupt reinforcements.
• Sometimes I see a high ranked enemy NB gank a under 50 level recruit when there are more worthy targets and I get triggered.
• Sometimes I misjudge how few enemies are in the area.
• Sometimes I'm pissed off because I just got stealth bombed by 15 players
• Sometimes I am wary because there were a whole bunch of enemies around and didn't know they moved on.
• Sometimes I recognize a bit late that the enemies I am fighting are all alone and outnumbered, but even though I leave, my Purifying Light hits them for 8K later on.
• Sometimes Chalman Mine just got cleared of 50 DC and I'm not going to let 1 slink away to set up a camp.
• Etc., Etc.

All it takes is one time for something like this to happen for a opposing player to see my name on my death recap, get pissed off, and put me on a "kill on sight" list, even though I didn't mean it or I regret doing it.

Meanwhile these very same players won't notice all the times I disengaged, choose not to chase them down, didn't even bother to fight them in the first place because I see they already had their hands full. It's like the proverbial tree that falls in the forest that no one hears. And trust me, this happens A LOT.

Also, it's not easy doing all these sorts of calculations of how many enemies are in the area, how many allies, what caliber of players are the enemy, is my presence necessary, should I help my allies, are we trying to take a nearby keep, is that NB just trying to set a camp to respawn his zerg, etc. With so many question, your bound not to always get the answers right. And then there are times that trying to play respectfully gets you killed: you only saw 2 enemies, but not the 15 on the other side of that rock. It's a lot easier and more productive AP wise to just shoot first and ask questions later.

And sometimes when you play respectfully, other people won't interpret it as such. If I see two evenly matched players having a 1v1 off in the distance, I typically won't interfere. In my opinion, that's sporting and respectful. I've had players on my faction not see it that way: "Why the F*** did you just stand there?"

The belated point: I am by in large playing respectfully and way way more often than not, keeping sportsmanship in mind. However, both allies and enemies can easily not perceive it as such. At the end of the day, killing other players is 1000% fundamental to have a functioning Cyrodiil, taking Keeps, getting the game moving, securing and holding alliance objectives, etc., and we don't like to die, so misunderstandings and poor impressions are going to happen a lot. And I already admitted when I myself am pissed off, it can cause me to play in ways I'd rather not.

This is just me when I am alone.

With groups, it get a whole lot more complicated. Because if another enemy guild is roaming around your faction's backlines, many times it makes a lot of sense strategically to hunt them down ruthlessly so they can't camp up and continue disrupting the map. And there are times, by coincidence because the map just works out that way, the beloved faction stack happens and because you see multiple guilds on your death-recap, you're convinced the other side is intentionally double teaming you. More bad feelings, more incorrect assumptions, more "we'll get them back" resentments.

What probably caused the most amount of salt in the Teamspeaks I have been in is when we are engaging one group or mass amount of players and then suddenly getting bombed by another guild. Whether or not that's sound strategic play or poor sportsmanship is in the eye of the beholder. I think sometimes we can agree it's got to be done for the sake of the map and moving on to the next objective, but it's still going to leave a bad taste in the mouth.

The TL;DR version: What constitutes good sportsmanship is ambiguous and subject to interpretation, not only from player to player, but is also subject to the context of the situation. What is sound and wise strategy and necessary for accomplishing a needed objective may not be sporting in a vacuum. So while I agree sportsmanship can help diffuse tensions and make our overall experience playing in cyrodiil much better, it's not a panacea or sometimes we can rely upon to solve the mechanics and rules that bring about frustrations PvPing.

Drakkdjinn

Ghostbane wrote: »

Cleave build, wat a nub

Rin_Senya

Glad to see you guys covering the Christmas shift on the forums

Joy_Division wrote: »

You may think I'm a hypocrite and you're entitled to your opinion, but you and Izzy are making an awful lot of incorrect assumptions about me.

I make my assumptions based on what you post on the forum and in this thread especially. I quoted enough examples to show why I formed my opinion of you. You (and your cheerleaders) have yet to post any relevant examples to the contrary.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Let's get something clear. You do not know me. You don't. You do not know how I feel about the game, what I like about the game, who I play the game with, why I play the game the way I do. You know next to nothing about my history with the game, who I ran with, why I ran with them, or how I felt about doing so.

And why do I need to know any of this? See above.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I made friends, I enjoyed the socializing, I did enjoy the competition back in the day when there were a lot of quality guilds running, I felt I had a lot to learn with from my guildmates that would make me a better player, hell sometimes I just liked to hear Fruity and Tex argue which part of Texas has the best BBQ.

So now your group disbanded you don't want anyone else to experience this saying that groups are so cancerous for the game and blah-blah-blah?
Because:

Joy_Division wrote: »

And I never said that style "should not be allowed." I said the mechanics should be reformed to encourage more effective and dynamic strategies.

No. You actually said this:

Joy_Division wrote: »

So, yes, even me as someone who used to ball-group with the best of them, I don't want to see them.

___

Joy_Division wrote: »

Because this game is full of load-screens, bugs, lag, and many other assorted unpleasantness, I'm sure a lot of people out there are super frustrated over the very basic aspects of simply playing ESO, yet they log in anyway. Imagine that.

Orly? So how about focus on these problems rather than blame one particular play style saying "oh I don't even want to see it anymore".

Joy_Division wrote: »

In fact, I think doing the opposite is worse. I am not going to bite my tongue or give dishonest assessments simply because the "meta" favors how I play.

Every single meta favours strong coordinated group play. This is why focusing on problems rather than constantly "nerfing groups" should be encouraged.
Because if you take this example:

Joy_Division wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

For three years I have posted on these forums that ZoS needed to make these tactics be counter-productive or at least discouraged: AoE caps especially, skills like purge and rapids being restricted to group only, some sort of reform such that 1 regen bot cant just spam rapids/purge and immunize 23 other people

Are you saying you wanted "purge and rapids being restricted to group only" or not? It's not really clear from how you typed it

Purge and rapids should not be restricted to groups.

Purge and rapids were changed to groups only just because ZOS listen to people that were constantly asking on forums and their streams to nerf groups. This is what we have as the result: a change which hurt small groups, "stale meta" that everyone hates and the gap between hardcore groups and casual has dramatically widened.

Also:

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm a hyprocrite huh? Check out the date of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG9kq2I6mPE&t=15s

That's my video. Mine. I made it. That's December 7, 2015. Because I couldn't stand AoE caps and the what passed for guild strategies. You what else about that date? I was in VE for six months! You and Rin's presumptions are wrong. I'm not against these stack-on-crown blob PBAoE "tactics" because I'm not longer run in VE, it's because I don't think those mechanics are interesting or compelling, and I absolutely think they could and should be reformed and improved.

I have been consistent in how I feel about the game, how I posted, and when I posted.

Lol? So what is this video meant to prove? This is a video complaining about (according to your own description) "Zenimax's silence to the topic of AoE caps". Nothing like your "post-VE" rants on forums about groups now, of which I gave many examples in my previous post.

Joy_Division wrote: »

... because I dare critique the game's mechanics.

In the examples I quoted (of which there are many), you not criticising the games mechanics, you criticising the whole style of play saying that it's mindless, bot-like and you don't want to see it in Cyrodiil.

Texas

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Glad to see you guys covering the Christmas shift on the forums

Joy_Division wrote: »

You may think I'm a hypocrite and you're entitled to your opinion, but you and Izzy are making an awful lot of incorrect assumptions about me.

I make my assumptions based on what you post on the forum and in this thread especially. I quoted enough examples to show why I formed my opinion of you. You (and your cheerleaders) have yet to post any relevant examples to the contrary.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Let's get something clear. You do not know me. You don't. You do not know how I feel about the game, what I like about the game, who I play the game with, why I play the game the way I do. You know next to nothing about my history with the game, who I ran with, why I ran with them, or how I felt about doing so.

And why do I need to know any of this? See above.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I made friends, I enjoyed the socializing, I did enjoy the competition back in the day when there were a lot of quality guilds running, I felt I had a lot to learn with from my guildmates that would make me a better player, hell sometimes I just liked to hear Fruity and Tex argue which part of Texas has the best BBQ.

So now your group disbanded you don't want anyone else to experience this saying that groups are so cancerous for the game and blah-blah-blah?
Because:

Joy_Division wrote: »

And I never said that style "should not be allowed." I said the mechanics should be reformed to encourage more effective and dynamic strategies.

No. You actually said this:

Joy_Division wrote: »

So, yes, even me as someone who used to ball-group with the best of them, I don't want to see them.

___

Joy_Division wrote: »

Because this game is full of load-screens, bugs, lag, and many other assorted unpleasantness, I'm sure a lot of people out there are super frustrated over the very basic aspects of simply playing ESO, yet they log in anyway. Imagine that.

Orly? So how about focus on these problems rather than blame one particular play style saying "oh I don't even want to see it anymore".

Joy_Division wrote: »

In fact, I think doing the opposite is worse. I am not going to bite my tongue or give dishonest assessments simply because the "meta" favors how I play.

Every single meta favours strong coordinated group play. This is why focusing on problems rather than constantly "nerfing groups" should be encouraged.
Because if you take this example:

Joy_Division wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

For three years I have posted on these forums that ZoS needed to make these tactics be counter-productive or at least discouraged: AoE caps especially, skills like purge and rapids being restricted to group only, some sort of reform such that 1 regen bot cant just spam rapids/purge and immunize 23 other people

Are you saying you wanted "purge and rapids being restricted to group only" or not? It's not really clear from how you typed it

Purge and rapids should not be restricted to groups.

Purge and rapids were changed to groups only just because ZOS listen to people that were constantly asking on forums and their streams to nerf groups. This is what we have as the result: a change which hurt small groups, "stale meta" that everyone hates and the gap between hardcore groups and casual has dramatically widened.

Also:

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm a hyprocrite huh? Check out the date of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG9kq2I6mPE&t=15s

That's my video. Mine. I made it. That's December 7, 2015. Because I couldn't stand AoE caps and the what passed for guild strategies. You what else about that date? I was in VE for six months! You and Rin's presumptions are wrong. I'm not against these stack-on-crown blob PBAoE "tactics" because I'm not longer run in VE, it's because I don't think those mechanics are interesting or compelling, and I absolutely think they could and should be reformed and improved.

I have been consistent in how I feel about the game, how I posted, and when I posted.

Lol? So what is this video meant to prove? This is a video complaining about (according to your own description) "Zenimax's silence to the topic of AoE caps". Nothing like your "post-VE" rants on forums about groups now, of which I gave many examples in my previous post.

Joy_Division wrote: »

... because I dare critique the game's mechanics.

In the examples I quoted (of which there are many), you not criticising the games mechanics, you criticising the whole style of play saying that it's mindless, bot-like and you don't want to see it in Cyrodiil.

Question. If you're in game and someone 1vX'd would you run back out there after dying and try to 1v1 the person over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over? That's essentially what you're doing at the moment with this attempted forum PvP.

Derra

pieratsos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Mickydanz wrote: »

remove all aoe ults from pvp rip trains

And how would you wipe a train without aoe ults?

Well the aim of something like that would be to discourage the creation of trains in the first place. Maybe something like removing/reworking all PBAoE would be better.

the problem is that the current trains have an additional benefit bc of the games target system - they make coordinated singletarget attacks against one player of a group impossible.

so when you have no aoe to kill groups and can´t reliably hit the same target with singletarget attacks - yes ppl would still ball up bc not dying is what the majority of the playerbase finds fun.

But you could possibly hit them with targetted AOE abilities. And you could also do other tweaks that also discourage those balls defensively as well. Like single target rapids, purge rework, unpurgeable siege or whatever. I didnt say its a perfect solution but my point is be to make changes in a way that balling up gives no benefits instead of just trying to find new ways to combat balls.

I think that´s an important part but missing the point.

Balling should not only not give any benefits (it will atleast always make healing easier).
Balling up should be harmful and not desireable over extended periods of time - otherwise you won´t get rid of it.

Xsorus

Joy_Division wrote: »

Autumnhart wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Now the question is: Why do we consider kodi 1v4ing people fine but a raid 12v50ing as broken? There hardly is a difference.

Actually there is a huge difference. Knowing that ur skill matters, doing the best u can but still losing to someone because he is simply better and u got outplayed is one thing. Thats totally acceptable. You can get better, put on better gear as well and take him on again. But feeling helpless and not being able to do absolutely anything not because u are not good enough but because of stupid mechanics unless u bring more numbers to use those same stupid mechanics is a very different story.

I mean what's the difference between getting better, wearing better gear and learning to not get outplayed again vs. one person or vs 12-16? You could get a 12-16 man group together and get coordinated and wear the proper gear setups and you can beat the organized groups and stop getting out played. Instead of just making yourself better it's making your group better though. It's your choice to play solo instead of with an organized group.

You are not getting outplayed by those groups. That is literally the point. Im sorry but spamming one button isnt exactly what i would call "outplay" people.

You are not making urself or ur group better. You are just making ur group bigger and abuse the same stupid mechanics they do to be able to face them.

If you just wanted to make yourself bigger why not just run like 50+ ND just light attack? Organized groups is about taking x number of people, usually 12 or 14 and designing the best possible group around that and then any 2 or 4 extras bringing it to 16 can be a flex role to help the group. If you ran a 12 man that ran a group comp and theory crafted the way these groups do you could make a group that could be competitive rather than being outplayed. As has been said many times, the problem with organized groups right now is the lack of them and therefore the lack of things to counter the remaining organized groups. If you want to counter a 1vx player you learn the skills to 1vx and play to a similar level as them, therefore if you want to counter an organized group you need to learn the skills to counter an organized group. There honestly needs to be more organized groups in cyro to make it a healthier place this way groups.like drac and Fantasia have a true counter.

I dont want to group up and do the same stuff just to be able to fight them and i shouldnt have to do that. Especially when that thing is so braindead and boring. I dont want to kill them. I dont even expect to kill them. Im just looking for actual enjoyable fights no matter what playstyle i choose. And when i end up being outnumbered, at least i want to be able to have a good fight whether i win or die. It used to work that way, it doesnt work that way anymore. Now its either ball up or gtfo .

So no, the issue isnt that there are not enough of those groups. The issue is that they even exist in that form. And the fact that gameplay is such a joke, is the reason why there are not enough people in the first place and why the population is getting smaller every patch. And to make it a little more simple, ill just post this.

Xsorus wrote: »

Also having dedicated roles in a group isn’t bad... but when your zerg reaches a point where you have a dedicated person spamming rapids... you’ve gone full potato.

I don't disagree that organized groups are overly strong and hard to counter right now it's part of the reason I don't enjoy eso much anymore and have been playing destiny 2 recently. However, I feel as though this isn't a new thing in eso,. I remember taking 12-16 players and farming for as long as I can remember. Groups like alacrity and no mercy were the best at launch and essentially did what we do. They were guilds that didn't just control the flow of PvP in the main campaign they controlled it in multiple campaigns and often held off literally hundreds of players who organized to "raid" their campaign and try to dethrone their emp. Some of these players reigned for 2+ months because there was almost nothing that could take them down. But no one complained then because there was actually competition between similarly skilled guilds and now that has mostly gone away. Sure there's still some but there's less and less.

All that said, organized groups will always have an advantage over solo players and pugs of equal or even greater numbers. A group that is constantly striving to improve and be the best they can be. You quote the thing about people dedicated to spamming rapids but look at 1.6-2.6 with Sometimes a quarter or more of some groups just running builds to endlessly spamming bombard, especially after thieves guild patch where rapids was nerfed and it made roots extremely strong. This led to the rise of the rapid maneuver spam roles as instead of having 1 rapids and being able to move while healing you now dropped rapids as soon as you casted anything.

I personally would love to see this meta turned on it's head, not just DMG such as eots but everything about it and have groups figure it out from there. However even if that happened I fear we would get to the same issue were having right now where there is simply just no competition to stop these organized groups from fighting 3x or more of their numbers of less organized players and the simple unwillingness of other players to try and push their groups to this level of play is going to allow this to happen. It doesn't matter what is done but groups like dracarys will always be able fight extremely outnumbered and the only thing that will counter them is a group willing to be just as organized. I personally believe there are hard counters to destro ult groups now but it requires 12+ people willing to run a designated spec and that may be hard with EG right now but I still believe it is possible.

Tl;Dr I feel groups are overly strong but groups have always been this way and they are perhaps not even the strongest they've ever been. Bombard spam and maneuvers change created these dedicated rapid spammer roles to counter that. Organized groups will always only be able to be taken out in equal numbers by other organized groups or else 3x their numbers of pugs.

There is a parallel between "organized group play" and another powerful advantage: stealth. It's hard to balance, and there have been times stealth and invisibility have been too powerful and too much a factor in open world PVP. ZOS helps out by repeatedly screwing up cloak, but there are also a lot more legit counters to stealth now. Proc sets took a blanket nerf because some of my sneaky brothers couldn't resist maximum cheese. These changes were necessary improvements that had to be made by the devs at a gameplay level. "Just slot magelight," wasn't a good enough solution.

***

Sorry but not surprised to see that sportsmanship isn't going to get a more thorough discussion. If that's not a factor at all in your decisions as an elite player of any game, you're doing it wrong.

[Edited to clarify that last comment is general and not aimed at the people quoted.]

I can only speak for myself and the groups that I have run with.

I try to always play respectfully to everyone in Cyrodiil. Even, usually, to those people who dislike me and go out of their way to ulti bomb me and chase me around the map.

I'm sure a lot of people are going to read that and laugh thinking what I just typed is nonsense.

The problem is one of perception. Just because I try to play respectfully, doesn't mean I always succeed.

• Sometimes I didn't notice I had numerous allies in the area.
• Sometimes I feel that resource or area is strategically important to take a castle and I feel the right thing to do is help the alliance by not allowing an enemy player to disrupt reinforcements.
• Sometimes I see a high ranked enemy NB gank a under 50 level recruit when there are more worthy targets and I get triggered.
• Sometimes I misjudge how few enemies are in the area.
• Sometimes I'm pissed off because I just got stealth bombed by 15 players
• Sometimes I am wary because there were a whole bunch of enemies around and didn't know they moved on.
• Sometimes I recognize a bit late that the enemies I am fighting are all alone and outnumbered, but even though I leave, my Purifying Light hits them for 8K later on.
• Sometimes Chalman Mine just got cleared of 50 DC and I'm not going to let 1 slink away to set up a camp.
• Etc., Etc.

All it takes is one time for something like this to happen for a opposing player to see my name on my death recap, get pissed off, and put me on a "kill on sight" list, even though I didn't mean it or I regret doing it.

Meanwhile these very same players won't notice all the times I disengaged, choose not to chase them down, didn't even bother to fight them in the first place because I see they already had their hands full. It's like the proverbial tree that falls in the forest that no one hears. And trust me, this happens A LOT.

Also, it's not easy doing all these sorts of calculations of how many enemies are in the area, how many allies, what caliber of players are the enemy, is my presence necessary, should I help my allies, are we trying to take a nearby keep, is that NB just trying to set a camp to respawn his zerg, etc. With so many question, your bound not to always get the answers right. And then there are times that trying to play respectfully gets you killed: you only saw 2 enemies, but not the 15 on the other side of that rock. It's a lot easier and more productive AP wise to just shoot first and ask questions later.

And sometimes when you play respectfully, other people won't interpret it as such. If I see two evenly matched players having a 1v1 off in the distance, I typically won't interfere. In my opinion, that's sporting and respectful. I've had players on my faction not see it that way: "Why the F*** did you just stand there?"

The belated point: I am by in large playing respectfully and way way more often than not, keeping sportsmanship in mind. However, both allies and enemies can easily not perceive it as such. At the end of the day, killing other players is 1000% fundamental to have a functioning Cyrodiil, taking Keeps, getting the game moving, securing and holding alliance objectives, etc., and we don't like to die, so misunderstandings and poor impressions are going to happen a lot. And I already admitted when I myself am pissed off, it can cause me to play in ways I'd rather not.

This is just me when I am alone.

With groups, it get a whole lot more complicated. Because if another enemy guild is roaming around your faction's backlines, many times it makes a lot of sense strategically to hunt them down ruthlessly so they can't camp up and continue disrupting the map. And there are times, by coincidence because the map just works out that way, the beloved faction stack happens and because you see multiple guilds on your death-recap, you're convinced the other side is intentionally double teaming you. More bad feelings, more incorrect assumptions, more "we'll get them back" resentments.

What probably caused the most amount of salt in the Teamspeaks I have been in is when we are engaging one group or mass amount of players and then suddenly getting bombed by another guild. Whether or not that's sound strategic play or poor sportsmanship is in the eye of the beholder. I think sometimes we can agree it's got to be done for the sake of the map and moving on to the next objective, but it's still going to leave a bad taste in the mouth.

The TL;DR version: What constitutes good sportsmanship is ambiguous and subject to interpretation, not only from player to player, but is also subject to the context of the situation. What is sound and wise strategy and necessary for accomplishing a needed objective may not be sporting in a vacuum. So while I agree sportsmanship can help diffuse tensions and make our overall experience playing in cyrodiil much better, it's not a panacea or sometimes we can rely upon to solve the mechanics and rules that bring about frustrations PvPing.

lol, I remember in DAOC it was a mortal sin to add on a 1v1.

I try not to do it now a days if I see what looks like a balanced 1v1 fight going on....But yea... DAOC was the unique in how players viewed the game...

LonePirate

Joy_Division wrote: »

I enjoyed the socializing, I did enjoy the competition back in the day when there were a lot of quality guilds running, I felt I had a lot to learn with from my guildmates that would make me a better player, hell sometimes I just liked to hear Fruity and Tex argue which part of Texas has the best BBQ.

@Joy_Division

You’re 100% on the money with this statement. I ran with VE for a few weeks before they switched from EP to DC and their TS was always entertaining thanks to players like Bulb, Tex, Fruity, Jules and many others. PVP was merely a side task among the conversations.

If NA PC Cyrodiil can survive the days that prompted VE to change alliances that first time a couple of years ago, then it can survive this current pain train meta. PTS changes will likely be up in about a week so maybe a new meta is on the horizon.

IcyDeadPeople

gabriebe wrote: »

Siege would be a lot better if it was used to break apart ball groups instead of just using DoTs (cause let's face it, everything but fire siege is nearly useless against players). Fear balls (rats?), ice balls that immobilize, lightning ballistas that ignore CC immunity or even temporary barricades would all be viable options to tear apart the destro pain train meta currently dominating PvP.

Sounds interesting! In general I think all the siege weapons should be nerfed slightly in non-CP, but buffed a bit in Vivec and Shor.

pieratsos

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Mickydanz wrote: »

remove all aoe ults from pvp rip trains

And how would you wipe a train without aoe ults?

Well the aim of something like that would be to discourage the creation of trains in the first place. Maybe something like removing/reworking all PBAoE would be better.

the problem is that the current trains have an additional benefit bc of the games target system - they make coordinated singletarget attacks against one player of a group impossible.

so when you have no aoe to kill groups and can´t reliably hit the same target with singletarget attacks - yes ppl would still ball up bc not dying is what the majority of the playerbase finds fun.

But you could possibly hit them with targetted AOE abilities. And you could also do other tweaks that also discourage those balls defensively as well. Like single target rapids, purge rework, unpurgeable siege or whatever. I didnt say its a perfect solution but my point is be to make changes in a way that balling up gives no benefits instead of just trying to find new ways to combat balls.

I think that´s an important part but missing the point.

Balling should not only not give any benefits (it will atleast always make healing easier).
Balling up should be harmful and not desireable over extended periods of time - otherwise you won´t get rid of it.

Well i agree but PBAoE doesnt seem to be the answer to that cause they are just another reason to ball up in the first place.

Derra

pieratsos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Mickydanz wrote: »

remove all aoe ults from pvp rip trains

And how would you wipe a train without aoe ults?

Well the aim of something like that would be to discourage the creation of trains in the first place. Maybe something like removing/reworking all PBAoE would be better.

the problem is that the current trains have an additional benefit bc of the games target system - they make coordinated singletarget attacks against one player of a group impossible.

so when you have no aoe to kill groups and can´t reliably hit the same target with singletarget attacks - yes ppl would still ball up bc not dying is what the majority of the playerbase finds fun.

But you could possibly hit them with targetted AOE abilities. And you could also do other tweaks that also discourage those balls defensively as well. Like single target rapids, purge rework, unpurgeable siege or whatever. I didnt say its a perfect solution but my point is be to make changes in a way that balling up gives no benefits instead of just trying to find new ways to combat balls.

I think that´s an important part but missing the point.

Balling should not only not give any benefits (it will atleast always make healing easier).
Balling up should be harmful and not desireable over extended periods of time - otherwise you won´t get rid of it.

Well i agree but PBAoE doesnt seem to be the answer to that cause they are just another reason to ball up in the first place.

It is indeed not unless pbaoe is so strong that it becomes irrelevant if you´re stacking 2 or 20 of them on the same spot.

The problem in eso has in my opinion always been ccs lasting too short (imo they could increase all hardcc duration by 100% - while also making you "immune" to purge while you have the 50% reduction buff active) and too little vaible aoe ccs with the addition of purge + rapids effectively negating a large part of soft AND hard cc in the game.
Why are most ccs singletargeted yet a cc counter ability is friendly pbaoe - you can´t combat that.

But that´s a whole different point again. So much in this game just does not make sense from a gameplay pov.

Drummerx04

zyk wrote: »

There have been times on PC/NA/Vivec when DC has Chal and Roe, AD has no decent groups on and is in wall-fighting mode, but Drac and other EP groups continue to push south for hours. Maybe during these times Drac could consider pushing the faction that is strongest at that time instead of the one that is weakest. Or at least take Chal back. Just by re-opening the Bleaker's corridor, you would take pressure off the south.

Lol, way to suggest that Drac go fight DC instead of AD.

Rin_Senya

Texas wrote: »

Question. If you're in game and someone 1vX'd would you run back out there after dying and try to 1v1 the person over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over? That's essentially what you're doing at the moment with this attempted forum PvP.

I'll wait to speak to the organ grinder ( @Joy_Division ) not the monkey