The Current Destro Pain Train Meta Needs To Die

Texas

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Question. If you're in game and someone 1vX'd would you run back out there after dying and try to 1v1 the person over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over? That's essentially what you're doing at the moment with this attempted forum PvP.

I'll wait to speak to the organ grinder ( @Joy_Division ) not the monkey

Ixtyr

Texas wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Question. If you're in game and someone 1vX'd would you run back out there after dying and try to 1v1 the person over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over? That's essentially what you're doing at the moment with this attempted forum PvP.

I'll wait to speak to the organ grinder ( @Joy_Division ) not the monkey

Tex, I thought you didn't post selfies on the forums?

asneakybanana

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Mickydanz wrote: »

remove all aoe ults from pvp rip trains

And how would you wipe a train without aoe ults?

Well the aim of something like that would be to discourage the creation of trains in the first place. Maybe something like removing/reworking all PBAoE would be better.

the problem is that the current trains have an additional benefit bc of the games target system - they make coordinated singletarget attacks against one player of a group impossible.

so when you have no aoe to kill groups and can´t reliably hit the same target with singletarget attacks - yes ppl would still ball up bc not dying is what the majority of the playerbase finds fun.

But you could possibly hit them with targetted AOE abilities. And you could also do other tweaks that also discourage those balls defensively as well. Like single target rapids, purge rework, unpurgeable siege or whatever. I didnt say its a perfect solution but my point is be to make changes in a way that balling up gives no benefits instead of just trying to find new ways to combat balls.

I think that´s an important part but missing the point.

Balling should not only not give any benefits (it will atleast always make healing easier).
Balling up should be harmful and not desireable over extended periods of time - otherwise you won´t get rid of it.

Well i agree but PBAoE doesnt seem to be the answer to that cause they are just another reason to ball up in the first place.

It is indeed not unless pbaoe is so strong that it becomes irrelevant if you´re stacking 2 or 20 of them on the same spot.

The problem in eso has in my opinion always been ccs lasting too short (imo they could increase all hardcc duration by 100% - while also making you "immune" to purge while you have the 50% reduction buff active) and too little vaible aoe ccs with the addition of purge + rapids effectively negating a large part of soft AND hard cc in the game.
Why are most ccs singletargeted yet a cc counter ability is friendly pbaoe - you can´t combat that.

But that´s a whole different point again. So much in this game just does not make sense from a gameplay pov.

How about all aoe skills increase in damage by 25% per enemy hit instead of reducing in damage over 6 players hit. This would already start discouraging stacking and with the heal cap of 6 you will be able to overpower enemy heals. While I agree with you that CCs feel largely useless right now I disagree that single target CCs are being countered by an aoe since purge/rapids is negating snares and roots which are all mainly aoe soft CCs and any aoe hard CCs such as fear or many ultimates/synergies do not get effected by either of them.

Texas

Ixtyr wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Question. If you're in game and someone 1vX'd would you run back out there after dying and try to 1v1 the person over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over? That's essentially what you're doing at the moment with this attempted forum PvP.

I'll wait to speak to the organ grinder ( @Joy_Division ) not the monkey

Tex, I thought you didn't post selfies on the forums?

Well now that everyone knows what I look like I can act outraged and play the insensitive card anytime someone uses the term MONKEY.

Derra

asneakybanana wrote: »

While I agree with you that CCs feel largely useless right now I disagree that single target CCs are being countered by an aoe since purge/rapids is negating snares and roots which are all mainly aoe soft CCs and any aoe hard CCs such as fear or many ultimates/synergies do not get effected by either of them.

Have to disagree here. Most CCs last less than 3 seconds. Breakfree animation takes 1s.
Purge provides a buff that reduces negative effects applied to the target by 50%. This also affects hardccs making basically every cc that does not last for more than 3s obsolete to break.
I´ve played a build with curse eater + purge and you no longer have to cc break with that setup - without curseeater there are only NB ccs left you want to break occasionally.

So yeah - purge plays a huge role in making any hardcc useless against large groups
@asneakybanana

usmcjdking

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Texas wrote: »

Question. If you're in game and someone 1vX'd would you run back out there after dying and try to 1v1 the person over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over? That's essentially what you're doing at the moment with this attempted forum PvP.

I'll wait to speak to the organ grinder ( @Joy_Division ) not the monkey

I'm genuinely surprised you haven't started asking if everyone who has posted here has bitten their thumb in your general direction.

Joy_Division

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Glad to see you guys covering the Christmas shift on the forums

Joy_Division wrote: »

You may think I'm a hypocrite and you're entitled to your opinion, but you and Izzy are making an awful lot of incorrect assumptions about me.

I make my assumptions based on what you post on the forum and in this thread especially. I quoted enough examples to show why I formed my opinion of you. You (and your cheerleaders) have yet to post any relevant examples to the contrary.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Let's get something clear. You do not know me. You don't. You do not know how I feel about the game, what I like about the game, who I play the game with, why I play the game the way I do. You know next to nothing about my history with the game, who I ran with, why I ran with them, or how I felt about doing so.

And why do I need to know any of this? See above.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I made friends, I enjoyed the socializing, I did enjoy the competition back in the day when there were a lot of quality guilds running, I felt I had a lot to learn with from my guildmates that would make me a better player, hell sometimes I just liked to hear Fruity and Tex argue which part of Texas has the best BBQ.

So now your group disbanded you don't want anyone else to experience this saying that groups are so cancerous for the game and blah-blah-blah?
Because:

Joy_Division wrote: »

And I never said that style "should not be allowed." I said the mechanics should be reformed to encourage more effective and dynamic strategies.

No. You actually said this:

Joy_Division wrote: »

So, yes, even me as someone who used to ball-group with the best of them, I don't want to see them.

___

Joy_Division wrote: »

Because this game is full of load-screens, bugs, lag, and many other assorted unpleasantness, I'm sure a lot of people out there are super frustrated over the very basic aspects of simply playing ESO, yet they log in anyway. Imagine that.

Orly? So how about focus on these problems rather than blame one particular play style saying "oh I don't even want to see it anymore".

Joy_Division wrote: »

In fact, I think doing the opposite is worse. I am not going to bite my tongue or give dishonest assessments simply because the "meta" favors how I play.

Every single meta favours strong coordinated group play. This is why focusing on problems rather than constantly "nerfing groups" should be encouraged.
Because if you take this example:

Joy_Division wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

For three years I have posted on these forums that ZoS needed to make these tactics be counter-productive or at least discouraged: AoE caps especially, skills like purge and rapids being restricted to group only, some sort of reform such that 1 regen bot cant just spam rapids/purge and immunize 23 other people

Are you saying you wanted "purge and rapids being restricted to group only" or not? It's not really clear from how you typed it

Purge and rapids should not be restricted to groups.

Purge and rapids were changed to groups only just because ZOS listen to people that were constantly asking on forums and their streams to nerf groups. This is what we have as the result: a change which hurt small groups, "stale meta" that everyone hates and the gap between hardcore groups and casual has dramatically widened.

Also:

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'm a hyprocrite huh? Check out the date of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG9kq2I6mPE&t=15s

That's my video. Mine. I made it. That's December 7, 2015. Because I couldn't stand AoE caps and the what passed for guild strategies. You what else about that date? I was in VE for six months! You and Rin's presumptions are wrong. I'm not against these stack-on-crown blob PBAoE "tactics" because I'm not longer run in VE, it's because I don't think those mechanics are interesting or compelling, and I absolutely think they could and should be reformed and improved.

I have been consistent in how I feel about the game, how I posted, and when I posted.

Lol? So what is this video meant to prove? This is a video complaining about (according to your own description) "Zenimax's silence to the topic of AoE caps". Nothing like your "post-VE" rants on forums about groups now, of which I gave many examples in my previous post.

Joy_Division wrote: »

... because I dare critique the game's mechanics.

In the examples I quoted (of which there are many), you not criticising the games mechanics, you criticising the whole style of play saying that it's mindless, bot-like and you don't want to see it in Cyrodiil.

You keep doubling down and thinking you're showing me to be a hypocrite. You can call those people who don't see things your way my "cheerleaders" and "monkeys," but you're just showing how close-minded you are being.

You may think you are quoting me, but when and where did I say this?

Rin_Senya wrote: »

So now your group disbanded you don't want anyone else to experience this saying that groups are so cancerous for the game and blah-blah-blah?

I never said that. You are so sensitive to the negative commentary about zerging and destro-bomb groups that you misinterpreted me and made up an untrue motivation behind it.

I have criticized ZoS's mechanics that have enabled and empowered what I find overly simplistic and overly powerful mass stacking of PBAoEs. I don't like the tactics destro ball-groups use. That is fundamentally different and not the same as criticizing "groups," "zergs," or even "faction stacks." Not once in over 5000 posts in over three years did I once say that groups are a problem or are bad for the game. In fact, for those three years, I have consistently argued against any measures or restrictions that people have loudly and often suggested that ZoS should implement against groups such as restrict group healing, nerf their AP gain, cap ultimate usage, ban group oriented add-ons, etc. You are wrong here.

You keep insisting that somehow because VE is no longer around, that has changed my attitudes and my posts. That somehow because I can't partake in destro-ball groups, I "don't want anyone else to experience this." You so want to portray me as selfish and hypocritical, but you have zero proof and are wrong here as well. First of all, I am in a guild that most of the PvP community would characterize as a destro-ball group, so I am partaking in it. Secondly, had you bothered to actually watch the video instead of judging it by its title, you wouldn't have to ask what was the point.

Izzy asked this:

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Feel free to quote some of your old posts back when VE was in its hayday of you calling their style "bots" and "mindless/skill less" and perhaps I'll change my views.

"lagfest blob meta" "empowering lag blobs" "punishing small groups against F**** zergs" "ball groups don't have to do a thing except stack on crown" "pvp tactics are a joke" "ball together and take half damage, spread out and take full damage" "just download papacrown" "small group play is dead"

It's clear as day that I've made my distaste for stack-on-crown mass PBAoEs and is consistent with "my post VE rants," which is what Izzy asked for. (Granted, I was using hyperbole. I have maintained on these forums that good destro-bombs do require skill and a lot of it. Yet that skill is being harnessed into a boring and overly simplistic meta when things might be so much more interesting to rely on something other than stacking and PBAoE bombs. Thus the point still stands). So you are misrepresenting me and my motivations.

You see, I'm not selfish. I can appreciate how the style I play hurts and is unfair to those who play styles differently, or one might say to the overall health of PvP. It is precisely because I ran in a destro bomb-group that I appreciated even more that reform and adjustments would help the game and make it so those people who didn't run in one had a better chance to compete and affect the map. That's not being hypocritical or salty. That's being consistent and sticking to my beliefs even when they would weaken the very group I ran with. (Or maybe not. I felt we had such strong players that we would have adapted better to mechanics that demanded more complex strategies).

Yes, I said I don't want to see destro ball-groups. Because I don't. For the reasons I said in the video. For the reasons I said in this thread. I don't find that style of play compelling, interesting, dynamic, and I still think ball-groups don't offer much alternative styles of effective map control because mass PBAoE when done efficiently and effectively will flatten anything else. That does *not* mean I don't want to see groups. Huge difference.

I want destro pain train stack on crown groups to go away by doing what you keep are asking Zos to do: focus on problems. In my humble opinion, I think it's a problem that a guild or group can be at its most effective by downloading the Papacrown Add-on, slotting the de jour most effective PBAoE, and running around like ducklings following their mother. And there's been plenty of feedback in the PvP community that others feel similarly. I read the frustrations people have with that play-style on these forums. I read in zone chat the curses and resentments vented at enemy (and even allied) ball groups. And I even heed the hate-tells I get from people who say I'm ruining the game.

You think you know me from what I post in a single thread, but it's clear you don't since you believe I want to "nerf groups." In over 3 years and thousands of posts, I have not flat out asked Zos to nerf anything. I mean, you could have looked right in my signature for 101 suggestions of how to improve PvP and in not 1 of those suggestions do I say that groups needed to be nerfed.

In fact #98 unequivocally states that large groups have an essential role in map control and training the next generation of PvP players: "More player friendly as each player preference had a place. Raids of 24 focused on map control. Smaller groups had mechanics that worked against disorganized mobs and reinforced success. Solo players didn’t have to be a super maneuverable sorcerer or nightblade to survive in the open world. Large player base ensured there were always training guilds on for newer players and larger population cap ensured action was always somewhere for players to find their niche."

As far how Zos should change things, I don't claim to have the answers. However, I want ZoS to do something other than just moderate these forums and tell us to observe the community posting rules.

• I want Zos to add more map objectives that have a tangible effect on Cyrodiil (both in score and in player stat bonuses/modifications) meant for smaller groups and solo players
• I want ZoS to stop adding OP gear sets and revert many of the nerfs to our classes so people don't feel powerless against organized guilds
• I want ZoS to add more tangible incentives to PVP not only increase to player participation, but to have those players do something other than go around in circles around the Emperor ring.
• I'd like ZoS to add more skills with mechanics like guard that requires actual cooperation between players
• I'd like Zos to at least try to implement a combat system that functioned the way dynamic ultimate did, at least to try and reward skillful outnumbered play, along with more skills like the old templar repentance which also rewarded success
• I'd like ZoS to conduct numerous experiments in weekly events to see how certain mechanical changes would effect "stack-on-crown" tactics. Try these: no AoE caps, cap group size to 8 (knowing full well groups of 8 would stack; indeed that's the point. At least they don't have a common crown, have multiple leads, and would at least find it inconvenient to acts like bots), the aforementioned quasi-dynamic ult gen system, raising PoP caps (I think big map + small amount of players is a huge reason we concentrate in the same areas, it's too hard to find fights elsewhere), experiment having each class's current little-used high cost ultimate have a devastating synergy (to encourage their use and a real opportunity to punish stacking), things like that. I have no idea is these would help or hurt, but I'd like to at least try them so we have some data and experience rather than just speculate on these forums while nothing gets done.

In short, I want ZoS to encourage players to do something other than stacking on crown and slotting PBAoE skills. I'm not asking them to nerf or even get rid of groups.

You are wrong in assuming that I just want to nerf destro ball groups simply because VE is longer active. Just stop assuming things about me and mocking those who do not see things as you do by referring to them as cheerleaders and monkeys.

Vilestride

I mean, you're 1000 word retorts every time one of them presumes to know you doesn't exactly scream 'insensitive' either now does it.

Anazasi

I've read a majority of the posts in this thread and frankly, I still don't see any clarity as to what the issue is specifically. In fact players are assuming that group size is a dichotomy when in fact it's a paradigm. It does not matter what anyone thinks or believes but the ball group "destro" pain train is the result of players massing. If players did not mass in such large numbers what would the ball groups do? One cannot exist without the other and it's as simple as that. ZOS has looked at this thread and now has decided Earthgore set is "over-performing" when it fact the set just simply has no counter. So instead of adding a counter or just increasing the proc cooldown they will adjust it below burst damage to heal thresholds. I think this is wrong but who am I to argue with ZOS about mechanics. Of course it seems kind of stupid for certains orc's to be wearing it but whom am I to tell anyone what to do. I just hope that the one class that has been at the root of destro ball gets nerfed. I hate to say it but stacking 1 class to over-emphasize the one mechanic that is necessary to produce the end effect of the destro ball is simply the abuse of mechanics. Just like all those odd earthgore wearers. The honest critique of this thread is everyone is right and wrong. No one should be attacking @Joy_Division for voicing a valid perspective and no one should be attacking Dracarys for playing the way they want to. The reality is we are all playing a game within a community that needs to exercise a little better judgement. I guess the old saying "just because you can do something doesn't always mean you have to do it." Update 17 will bring nerfs disguised as balances and the community will adjust accordingly. The outcome will be the same until someone comes up with a new way to accomplish the same thing that is happening now. For any of you who think that ZOS will simply remove abilities or sets because you don't agree with their use is absurd and any change that decreases the effect of anything in this game is a nerf.

Has anyone ever actually asked why ZOS wants feedback from players on things like this? Is it possible that we are simply doing a job that no one else is doing? It is not right for a minority such as the players voicing opinions here to make sweeping nerf decisions for an entire community; since we are the minority out of the other 7 million players. I suppose the epitaph for some will read, "Instrumental in nerfing x y and z because he or she didn't like how it worked.

pieratsos

asneakybanana wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Mickydanz wrote: »

remove all aoe ults from pvp rip trains

And how would you wipe a train without aoe ults?

Well the aim of something like that would be to discourage the creation of trains in the first place. Maybe something like removing/reworking all PBAoE would be better.

the problem is that the current trains have an additional benefit bc of the games target system - they make coordinated singletarget attacks against one player of a group impossible.

so when you have no aoe to kill groups and can´t reliably hit the same target with singletarget attacks - yes ppl would still ball up bc not dying is what the majority of the playerbase finds fun.

But you could possibly hit them with targetted AOE abilities. And you could also do other tweaks that also discourage those balls defensively as well. Like single target rapids, purge rework, unpurgeable siege or whatever. I didnt say its a perfect solution but my point is be to make changes in a way that balling up gives no benefits instead of just trying to find new ways to combat balls.

I think that´s an important part but missing the point.

Balling should not only not give any benefits (it will atleast always make healing easier).
Balling up should be harmful and not desireable over extended periods of time - otherwise you won´t get rid of it.

Well i agree but PBAoE doesnt seem to be the answer to that cause they are just another reason to ball up in the first place.

It is indeed not unless pbaoe is so strong that it becomes irrelevant if you´re stacking 2 or 20 of them on the same spot.

The problem in eso has in my opinion always been ccs lasting too short (imo they could increase all hardcc duration by 100% - while also making you "immune" to purge while you have the 50% reduction buff active) and too little vaible aoe ccs with the addition of purge + rapids effectively negating a large part of soft AND hard cc in the game.
Why are most ccs singletargeted yet a cc counter ability is friendly pbaoe - you can´t combat that.

But that´s a whole different point again. So much in this game just does not make sense from a gameplay pov.

How about all aoe skills increase in damage by 25% per enemy hit instead of reducing in damage over 6 players hit. This would already start discouraging stacking and with the heal cap of 6 you will be able to overpower enemy heals.

We cant introduce super OP AoE just for the sake of killing balls. I mean, the whole point is to discourage ball groups, not getting close to players altogether. In keep fights or any other close space for that matter, people will inevitably be next to each other. We cant blow everyone up just because they want to be involved in a keep fight.

bmesi

Hi Steve

Drummerx04

asneakybanana wrote: »

How about all aoe skills increase in damage by 25% per enemy hit instead of reducing in damage over 6 players hit. This would already start discouraging stacking and with the heal cap of 6 you will be able to overpower enemy heals. While I agree with you that CCs feel largely useless right now I disagree that single target CCs are being countered by an aoe since purge/rapids is negating snares and roots which are all mainly aoe soft CCs and any aoe hard CCs such as fear or many ultimates/synergies do not get effected by either of them.

Actually, purge and the 50% reduction buff absolutely counter hard CCs. I remember discovering this back when I ran in BoD. I had a bunch of group members slot the ability, and the number of people lost by getting picked off in the back while moving as a group dropped by a solid 70% instantly. Group members just weren't getting knocked down rooted and run over in the back anymore.

Rin_Senya

Joy_Division wrote: »

Yes, I said I don't want to see destro ball-groups. Because I don't. For the reasons I said in the video. For the reasons I said in this thread. I don't find that style of play compelling, interesting, dynamic, and I still think ball-groups don't offer much alternative styles of effective map control because mass PBAoE when done efficiently and effectively will flatten anything else.

Oh? But you said yourself that during the time you were in VE you actually wanted to fight and deal with other bomb groups:

Joy_Division wrote: »

"The only time I ever wanted to fight or deal with a ball-group was being in another ball-group (which was odd because in that setting, I preferred fighting ball-groups over mindless masses because the competition was better)."

Now tell me more about how I or Iza "misinterpreted you and made up an untrue motivation behind it".

Joy_Division wrote: »

You keep doubling down and thinking you're showing me to be a hypocrite.

Ok I'll repeat:
I make my assumptions based on what you post on the forum and in this thread especially. I quoted enough examples to show why I formed my opinion of you. You (and your cheerleaders) have yet to post any relevant examples to the contrary.

The only things I saw you post is a video as a counter to the numerous forum quotes, which I actually watched from the start till the end. The video was about ZOS not replying or solving the problem of AOE cap (that's being said in your own description of the video). That's why I pointed out that it proves nothing in reply to me and Iz.

You also can keep doubling down and thinking that just because you and your friends say "no I'm not hypocrite, you don't know me" it's somehow a valued argument but for me (and I'm actually not the only one) is hilarious to see any VE members talking about balling up, factions stacking or "lag at Ash when Dracarys is there".

There was no single problem for you guys doing it for years faction stacking with multiple guilds and the whole DC populations every single day. And now you suddenly coming on forums saying that it's bad and we should nerf bomb groups again just because some groups are "overperforming"? yeh you can keep dragging that same card out saying that you just wanted to be competitive, when VE was playing the population was different (which actually wasn't and we quoted words of your raid leader saying that your guild was a dinosaur even by the time you was playing), and there were more guilds playing (which is also not truth and you can see my reply here):

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

And the VE group had some pretty good opposition when I joined and had come back to DC (when I joined them). There were other guilds to fight in prime time:
EP: Haxus->Drac, PM (under Crow/Nikolai was very effective as a single raid), Invictus
AD: Fantasia, Dominant Dominion, Dominion Knights, Artem Deorem(?)
DC: Vehemence, Blood of Daggerfall, Pug Guild, Pugs of Daggerfall (later on)
Other guilds exist(ed) on each faction, but are/were mostly small group or never really took off

All these guilds are still around. And there are actually some more guilds that play in Vivec now, for example Kush, DIG, TM, KoN, LoM, CN etc. Equally at the time you mentioned on EP side both Haxus and Invictus caped at 16 and they were not running every night per week and PM were running pug groups recruited from zone. But anyway as I said all of these guilds that you mentioned above are still playing the game - some more, some less. So I don't understand when you say there is no competition left.

For me none of these arguments that you guys bring seem to be valid. I highly doubt that lag from back in those days when you were zerging Chal can be compared to the occasional lag nowadays.
__
So either we start a civil discussion about what the problem really is:

Vilestride wrote: »

I am still confused. Before we go suggesting solutions willy nilly we should probably define the problem properly. Usually that is step one. I am still unclear on the general consensus so I imagine zos is to . Is the problem ball groups? Or is it zergs? Because for starters ball groups are literally the only thing effective against zergs.

Or we can keep posting something like this..:

Joy_Division wrote: »

Yes, but I think there's more to it. I can't say I have any scientific evidence to support this, but I think "the masses" make a distinction between the sort of strict ball-group stack on crown group that looks and play like bots and a loose group of 24 players who don't run nearly as tight and don't look like ducklings following their mother.

The organized bot like pain trains have always been ridiculously more powerful than groups of comparable sise and dying to them is often just a matter of getting run over by masses using PBAoEs, something that at least doesn't have the perception of being skillful. And the aesthetics, or rather the lack of them, is surely a factor. Perceptions matter; these ball-groups don't seem to have any intricate strategy other than just blobbing together and brute forcing things with AoE skills.

When I'm alone, the absolute last thing I want to see on my way from BRK to SeJ is a ball-group and I'd much rather come across a mindless group of 50 players because there's absolutely nothing I can do against the ball-group whereas against the mindless 50, I can actually kill a few of them and feel like I'm accomplishing something. So, yes, even me as someone who used to ball-group with the best of them, I don't want to see them. The only time I ever wanted to fight or deal with a ball-group was being in another ball-group (which was odd because in that setting, I preferred fighting ball-groups over mindless masses because the competition was better).

The idea of nerfing Rapids comes from the frustrations of fighting those organized ball groups. What good are snares and roots if a ball-group is just going to have 1 member mindless spamming rapids to make them immune to something that counters - effectively - the rest of us peons and puga? Aside from the issue of whether or not it's a good thing for a compelling PvP strategy that to have one person whose sole function is just to spam one button that makes the entire group immune to a fundamental mechanics of roots and snares the rest of us have to suffer and make allowances in our builds. Purge-bot, rapids monkey, it just seems mindless. It's why people don't like it.

..and then suddenly be so surprised and self-defensive that after reading this people calling you a hypocrite.
Because for me you are a hypocrite saying all this about ball groups being a person that was contributing to exactly this playstyle as a member of one of the largest and laggiest ball-groups on NA. And for me your statements like this "one person whose sole function is just to spam one button that makes the entire group immune" - just show and proves how close-minded you are being and I highly doubt what with such kind of attitude that you have we can keep the civil discussion about the subject going.

Joy_Division wrote: »

You can call those people who don't see things your way my "cheerleaders" and "monkeys," but you're just showing how close-minded you are being.

You are the one being close-minded if you don't see how your own teamates behave and in what manner they post here. That turn of phrase is well-deserved Again it's not surprising me because it seems you are only able to see the problems only on other people's side.

Joy_Division wrote: »

You may think you are quoting me, but when and where did I say this?

All your long post that I just quoted above is about this and is written in the manner that shows how you hate with bomb groups. If you wouldn't like people to read it as I read you would use other worlds talking about this particular playstyle? I think i've quoted enough examples of your rage about it in this thread.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I have criticized ZoS's mechanics that have enabled and empowered what I find overly simplistic and overly powerful mass stacking of PBAoEs. I don't like the tactics destro ball-groups use. That is fundamentally different and not the same as criticizing "groups," "zergs," or even "faction stacks."

So here you are "criticising ZOS's mechanics" and definitely not "groups" right? Ok...

Joy_Division wrote: »

strict ball-group stack on crown group that looks and play like bots

Joy_Division wrote: »

The organized bot like pain trains

Joy_Division wrote: »

a lot of people who play this game can't stand that bot like style.

Joy_Division wrote: »

these ball-groups don't seem to have any intricate strategy other than just blobbing together and brute forcing things with AoE skills.

Joy_Division wrote: »

me as someone who used to ball-group with the best of them, I don't want to see them.

Joy_Division wrote: »

ball-group is just going to have 1 member mindless spamming rapids <...> to have one person whose sole function is just to spam one button Purge-bot, rapids monkey, it just seems mindless.

Joy_Division wrote: »

a bunch bots running around spamming PBAoE death.

___

Joy_Division wrote: »

You see, I'm not selfish. I can appreciate how the style I play hurts and is unfair to those who play styles differently, or one might say to the overall health of PvP. It is precisely because I ran in a destro bomb-group that I appreciated even more that reform and adjustments would help the game and make it so those people who didn't run in one had a better chance to compete and affect the map. That's not being hypocritical or salty. That's being consistent and sticking to my beliefs even when they would weaken the very group I ran with.

You see actually a lot of Dracarys members starting from Iza, Vile, Sneaky and even Vince (one of the dudes that you called a mindless rapid monkey made a huge work by trying to start a dialog to zos about the actual problems of PVP) constantly posting here interesting and constructive comments about a lot of problems that game experienced. I didn't see any of them constantly trash-talking in insulting way about any of particular playstyle. So you see it's possible, just need a little bit more effort.

Joy_Division wrote: »

(Or maybe not. I felt we had such strong players that we would have adapted better to mechanics that demanded more complex strategies).

So "ball-groups don't seem to have any intricate strategy other than just blobbing together and brute forcing things with AoE skills" or you all are such a strong players that would have adapted better? Make your mind please.
Also I think your friend would disagree with you:

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

I'm sure VE would have "adapted to running smaller groups to keep the competition to fight against" right around the time Drac adapted to a less optimized high health setup.

So to counter our setups you ran more players? thnx for confirming
Would it have not been easier to run lower numbers with more optimized builds? Rather than ask your opposition to be "weaker?"

__
I hope you are clever enough to see the difference in how and what you say in this statements (which I also agree with):

Joy_Division wrote: »

• I want Zos to add more map objectives that have a tangible effect on Cyrodiil (both in score and in player stat bonuses/modifications) meant for smaller groups and solo players
• I want ZoS to stop adding OP gear sets and revert many of the nerfs to our classes so people don't feel powerless against organized guilds
• I want ZoS to add more tangible incentives to PVP not only increase to player participation, but to have those players do something other than go around in circles around the Emperor ring.
• I'd like ZoS to add more skills with mechanics like guard that requires actual cooperation between players
• I'd like Zos to at least try to implement a combat system that functioned the way dynamic ultimate did, at least to try and reward skillful outnumbered play, along with more skills like the old templar repentance which also rewarded success
• I'd like ZoS to conduct numerous experiments in weekly events to see how certain mechanical changes would effect "stack-on-crown" tactics. Try these: no AoE caps, cap group size to 8 (knowing full well groups of 8 would stack; indeed that's the point. At least they don't have a common crown, have multiple leads, and would at least find it inconvenient to acts like bots), the aforementioned quasi-dynamic ult gen system, raising PoP caps (I think big map + small amount of players is a huge reason we concentrate in the same areas, it's too hard to find fights elsewhere), experiment having each class's current little-used high cost ultimate have a devastating synergy (to encourage their use and a real opportunity to punish stacking), things like that. I have no idea is these would help or hurt, but I'd like to at least try them so we have some data and experience rather than just speculate on these forums while nothing gets done.

and in all other quotes of you that I showed above. So how about stop being insulting to some particular playstyle and try and keep the conversation constructive? I'm 100% sure you can do this is you want.

Sharee

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Yes, I said I don't want to see destro ball-groups. Because I don't. For the reasons I said in the video. For the reasons I said in this thread. I don't find that style of play compelling, interesting, dynamic, and I still think ball-groups don't offer much alternative styles of effective map control because mass PBAoE when done efficiently and effectively will flatten anything else.

Oh? But you said yourself that during the time you were in VE you actually wanted to fight and deal with other bomb groups:

Joy_Division wrote: »

"The only time I ever wanted to fight or deal with a ball-group was being in another ball-group (which was odd because in that setting, I preferred fighting ball-groups over mindless masses because the competition was better)."

Now tell me more about how I or Iza "misinterpreted you and made up an untrue motivation behind it".

Sure!

"I prefer to travel by plane, rather than by boat, because i hate boats. However that does not mean i like to travel by plane, because i hate planes too, just less than boats. I want to travel by plane only when the only other option is a boat".

Knowing the above, you claim that i said i want to travel by plane. Even tho you can actually find that quote in the above text, it is a misinterpretation of what i was trying to say.

You're welcome!

asneakybanana

Derra wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

While I agree with you that CCs feel largely useless right now I disagree that single target CCs are being countered by an aoe since purge/rapids is negating snares and roots which are all mainly aoe soft CCs and any aoe hard CCs such as fear or many ultimates/synergies do not get effected by either of them.

Have to disagree here. Most CCs last less than 3 seconds. Breakfree animation takes 1s.
Purge provides a buff that reduces negative effects applied to the target by 50%. This also affects hardccs making basically every cc that does not last for more than 3s obsolete to break.
I´ve played a build with curse eater + purge and you no longer have to cc break with that setup - without curseeater there are only NB ccs left you want to break occasionally.

So yeah - purge plays a huge role in making any hardcc useless against large groups
@asneakybanana

Ah didn't consider that. Definitely makes sense. Doesn't make the cc useless tho it just makes it less effective. When the group is moving full speed around a keep being left behind for even 1s-2s can mean you're at the bottom of the steps when your group is at the top and if you lose rapids in that time period it can be almost certain death. I do agree tho it would make things very interesting if we were to see more CCs in the range of 5 or 6s base instead of 3s not just for group but in general, I feel it's too easy rn to just make a tanky build that can eat most single target burst during the duration of a hard cc, so it doesn't feel as punishing but this is off topic.

pieratsos

@Rin_Senya

Damn just stop. Its blatantly clear to anyone with half a brain that in that video he is showing his disdain for ball groups.
You are seriously trying so hard to spin his words about everything and find even the slightest inconsistency in his posts to create dumb arguments about how he is a hypocrite or whatever. Its not working and its laughable. You got roasted, get over it and just stop cause at this point you are making urself look stupid.

Shaggygaming

pieratsos wrote: »

@Rin_Senya

Damn just stop. Its blatantly clear to anyone with half a brain that in that video he is showing his disdain for ball groups.
You are seriously trying so hard to spin his words about everything and find even the slightest inconsistency in his posts to create dumb arguments about how he is a hypocrite or whatever. Its not working and its laughable. You got roasted, get over it and just stop cause at this point you are making urself look stupid.

Give her a break. It is already extremely pathetic that no one liked them on EU that they had to reroll in a dead game to NA. Most of her friends are people no one likes or people who have been banned and had to buy more ESO accounts.

Autumnhart

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just because I try to play respectfully, doesn't mean I always succeed.

• Sometimes I didn't notice I had numerous allies in the area.
• Sometimes I feel that resource or area is strategically important to take a castle and I feel the right thing to do is help the alliance by not allowing an enemy player to disrupt reinforcements.
• Sometimes I see a high ranked enemy NB gank a under 50 level recruit when there are more worthy targets and I get triggered.
• Sometimes I misjudge how few enemies are in the area.
• Sometimes I'm pissed off because I just got stealth bombed by 15 players
• Sometimes I am wary because there were a whole bunch of enemies around and didn't know they moved on.
• Sometimes I recognize a bit late that the enemies I am fighting are all alone and outnumbered, but even though I leave, my Purifying Light hits them for 8K later on.

Lol, yes. Anybody who couldn't make a similar list is too good for this world.

Joy_Division wrote: »

The TL;DR version: What constitutes good sportsmanship is ambiguous and subject to interpretation, not only from player to player, but is also subject to the context of the situation. What is sound and wise strategy and necessary for accomplishing a needed objective may not be sporting in a vacuum. So while I agree sportsmanship can help diffuse tensions and make our overall experience playing in cyrodiil much better, it's not a panacea or sometimes we can rely upon to solve the mechanics and rules that bring about frustrations PvPing.

A panacea, no. You're right: it changes nothing about gameplay, only players' experience of that gameplay. This matters not because we all need to hold hands and have a sing, but because we'd all like the PVP to continue. And it matters because it matters, the effort is important whether it is misinterpreted or not. It will be.

It's easier at smaller scales, but I do have an obvious bias.

Adenoma

Honestly, can this thread go back to talking about the mechanics and avoid all this about @Joy_Division 's alleged/real (not taking sides) hypocrisy? It's not productive at all and I think everyone is in agreement that we want stimulating play for all peoples and all playstyles. If people find X or Y playstyle stimulating, then make that case and don't attack the decisions of others. After all, ZOS does want us to play as we want.

Personally, I think earthgore is a bit of a crutch that lacks counterplay. I don't like its design and the fact that it (along with negate) destroy the utility of formerly-awesome ultimates like standard and nova. I do not like that there are such potent options for PBAOE usable as ultimates and EotS (along with other AOE spammables) may merit a reduction in their radius. It would be an interesting thing to not make purge or rapids group-specific and capped (say 12, but I'm not actually sure if this is currently the case) so that incentivizes organized groups to avoid zerg surfing so that pugs don't pick up their utility. I'd also like to see options for ground-based AOE synergies improved like making standard's shackle scale off of max magicka/stamina rather than health.

This is devolving into an argument and I think players of all types are throwing away a potential platform (because who knows if ZOS cares for player feedback) to liven up PvP.

Texas

Vilestride wrote: »

I mean, you're 1000 word retorts every time one of them presumes to know you doesn't exactly scream 'insensitive' either now does it.

Joy's already KB'd the others....stay in stealth so you can get a camp up for them to rez at. No need in getting KB'd as well unless you guys are ready to move on to another location.

usmcjdking

You also can keep doubling down and thinking that just because you and your friends say "no I'm not hypocrite, you don't know me" it's somehow a valued argument but for me (and I'm actually not the only one) is hilarious to see any VE members talking about balling up, factions stacking or "lag at Ash when Dracarys is there".

Don't hate the player, hate the game is a common American maxim and one that is displayed consistently throughout this thread. Perhaps it would be beneficial to look at our posts through the appropriate lens. No one is attacking you or your way of life but you are certainly acting like we came after your first born.

Drummerx04

usmcjdking wrote: »

You also can keep doubling down and thinking that just because you and your friends say "no I'm not hypocrite, you don't know me" it's somehow a valued argument but for me (and I'm actually not the only one) is hilarious to see any VE members talking about balling up, factions stacking or "lag at Ash when Dracarys is there".

Don't hate the player, hate the game is a common American maxim and one that is displayed consistently throughout this thread. Perhaps it would be beneficial to look at our posts through the appropriate lens. No one is attacking you or your way of life but you are certainly acting like we came after your first born.

I think hating the game is probably the overall issue. Everyone secretly hates it and hates that they still play it, and lashes out at everyone here as a result.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

pieratsos wrote: »

@Rin_Senya

Damn just stop. Its blatantly clear to anyone with half a brain that in that video he is showing his disdain for ball groups.
You are seriously trying so hard to spin his words about everything and find even the slightest inconsistency in his posts to create dumb arguments about how he is a hypocrite or whatever. Its not working and its laughable. You got roasted, get over it and just stop cause at this point you are making urself look stupid.

Anyone with a full brain understands what @Rin_Senya typed. I guess there is a lack of those left these days judging by this type of response.

The point in question is the written language used not the sentiment. The fact that post-VE @Joy_Division began to use a different set of language when referring to groups in what I would consider a hypocritical manor. This was explained 5+ times, yet still you fail to understand. Unfortunate really.

The proof that this language didn't change was given to be this video. The video made no references similar to Joys current diatribe on "mindless bots groups". It blamed lag and stacking on the crown as an easy mechanic. This is why the video is not proof of anything. This is why it was referred to. Also even though multiple sources were quoted of the language post VE, and only 1 video off the foums given in response. The rest of the responses were "oh yeh there were many but i'm not gnna quote any examples".

Its like someone saying the world is flat and when you disagree they say back to you, "yeh there are many examples but im not gnna show you any just look for yourself."

The point (for those of you unable to grasp it still) is that for a viable discussion to be had about game mechanics and 'metas' the language used should not constantly insult a particular playstyle. with clear evidence showing problems and thought where possible. Otherwise you will never have an open and unbiased discussion which can lead to something good.

As for the rest of the cheerleader participation it constituted a circle of people patting each other on the back (as usual) and this is why its not worth the time to read it.

If you actually read the above posts you will see that @Rin_Senya agreed with many of Joy's points when they were presented in a constructive unbias way. However when you present points flaming a particular playstyle and diverting attention away from the real issues you should expect to get called out for it, especially if thats a playstyle you used to partake in.

For the final analogy it would be like me saying "ganking is no skilled garbage which should be removed from the game" when actually I meant that the "stun from stealth attacks is too long".

Rainraven

Drummerx04 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

You also can keep doubling down and thinking that just because you and your friends say "no I'm not hypocrite, you don't know me" it's somehow a valued argument but for me (and I'm actually not the only one) is hilarious to see any VE members talking about balling up, factions stacking or "lag at Ash when Dracarys is there".

Don't hate the player, hate the game is a common American maxim and one that is displayed consistently throughout this thread. Perhaps it would be beneficial to look at our posts through the appropriate lens. No one is attacking you or your way of life but you are certainly acting like we came after your first born.

I think hating the game is probably the overall issue. Everyone secretly hates it and hates that they still play it, and lashes out at everyone here as a result.

Yeah.

Wreuntzylla

Undo the blazeplar nerfs. Problem solved.

Ghostbane

The PVP that has been manifested in this thread is more baffling than any patch to date.

Azurya

the easiest solution is the most obvious:

In Cyrodil you should be able to throw your Ulti only every 10 MINUTES, no endless ULTI-spamming anymore!
Problem solved.

end of discussion, thread can be closed

ShadowProc

Shaggygaming wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

@Rin_Senya

Damn just stop. Its blatantly clear to anyone with half a brain that in that video he is showing his disdain for ball groups.
You are seriously trying so hard to spin his words about everything and find even the slightest inconsistency in his posts to create dumb arguments about how he is a hypocrite or whatever. Its not working and its laughable. You got roasted, get over it and just stop cause at this point you are making urself look stupid.

Give her a break. It is already extremely pathetic that no one liked them on EU that they had to reroll in a dead game to NA. Most of her friends are people no one likes or people who have been banned and had to buy more ESO accounts.

Your saying Drac are rerolls from EU who got banned? For what, being way to arrogant and self centered?

Tommy_The_Gun

Azurya wrote: »

the easiest solution is the most obvious:

In Cyrodil you should be able to throw your Ulti only every 10 MINUTES, no endless ULTI-spamming anymore!
Problem solved.

end of discussion, thread can be closed

Poor werewolf... 300 ulti cost... so I can imagine it will be like "one" werewolf ulti per 30 minutes...

The idea is good but as you can see it would need some balancing...

Sanct16

Azurya wrote: »

the easiest solution is the most obvious:

In Cyrodil you should be able to throw your Ulti only every 10 MINUTES, no endless ULTI-spamming anymore!
Problem solved.

end of discussion, thread can be closed

The most obvious solution is always never the best.

How would groups react to such a change?