A Difficult PVE DLC - Dark Souls Difficulty

Khenarthi

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Khenarthi wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Khenarthi wrote: »

If a hardmode DLC is released, I'll unsubscribe for a while (because I don't buy DLC), like I did after Upper Craglorn release.

Both as a protest, and because I have zero interest in a challenge. I play to relax.

This must be the perfect game for you then.

@Daus yes it is. I love this game in its present state, there is content for everyone. I can spend hours questing without feeling the need to smash anything in frustration.

Interesting, guess we can divert resources to fixing pvp then, pve is happy.

That is fine with me, PVP players definetively need some love.

Edit for clarity: there's Imperial City, duels, Battlegrounds, and Cyrodiil. I don't PVP much (I try it once every 6 months), but I hear that Cyro is quite laggy. Fixing it would be great.

Motherball

I enjoy the game because it offers varying degrees of difficulty. Its too bad some people have to turn everything into a pissing contest with trophies to show off. If you like challenge, its not hard to find. Just beacause there isnt some exclusive prize doesnt mean it has to be meaningless, imo.

Yzuna

I would love harder content in the game.

When I go on a quest and a NPC tell me about a fearfull beast, a formidable foe that I need to slay, and it ends up being something that I kill in 10sec without breaking a sweat, well that kinda sad.

I'm not saying the game should be hardcore like DS (I would like that, but realistically that wouldn't be good for business) but at least some degree of struggle in the game (other than veteran content, witch I'm gratefull for).

Doctordarkspawn

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Zorvan wrote: »

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

What if they added a way to switch the whole zone to a hard mode then? Would be interesting.

Shouldn't be too hard to do so theoretically. They already use instancing to change the world around you in a zone after doing certain quests. The problem is whether it would be worth the added hardware needed vs. how many would actually use it. It would be just like running a separate server, and would most likely be more cost effective to just add a "hardmode" server. Which they're unllikely to do since going with the whole "megaserver" thing.

YOOO Hardmode server would be legit maybe even a Hardmode OpenWorld PVP server.

Neither will ever happen, against ZOS's own personal philosophy (They stated outright they refuse to bring PVP outside of it's 'zone' aside from duels) and the former would be too cost ineffective for such a small audience.

Uriel_Nocturne

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

I would love to see an intensely Difficult DLC where the quests and delves and public dungeons made you fear to go alone. They could make it an oblivion gate themed dlc to allow some instancing to create a creepy dark looming feel without seeing 20 other players in zone plowing through the quests.

• Make the quests encourage the use of smart pulling or sneaking past mobs
• Add certain environment activated effects such as levers or traps inside of dungeons that can One Hit kill player or enemies (Think Amped up thieves guild traps)
• Have a new 4 person trial like vDSA a the new raid within it

I think having a hardcore difficult questing zone that has vibes of dark souls esk style risk would be a very rewarding addition to the questing community for as it is currently you just steam roll the content. Maybe they make it when you enter the oblivion gate DLC you are cut off from the mundus, and thus your CP is disabled, this would make for some interesting play where one cannot out scale the content by a large amount and make running hybrid builds to beat the content possibly more valid. I am primarily a PvP'er and have found the only challenging PvE was vDSA,.vMA, and vMoL (the last trial I completed before going fully to pvp).

I think the Zenimax employees disservice their great story quests by not helping increase the immersion and feeling of danger, the need to... ask for help to do a quest. These things are common in many MMOs where all quests are solo'd but I think a DLC where they made things so hard only the elite could go alone and not without a fair share of suffering, all else would band with their friends, it would make for some great content and enhance and enrich the story and aura of urgency to save x from y within the DLC.

I think once ZoS takes care of this they can next introduce a new PVP dlc with a factionless open world pvp zone as it's focus.

Thoughts?
ZoS Job Offers?

Post script 1: I think commenters are lost in the , but it’s just elitist trying to be elitist comments due to me saying its dangerous to go alone without much suffering. The whole point of that comment was because I was inferring that difficulty is used as a deterrent so folks would actually need to group for overland content that isn’t mass farming dolmens in Alikr Desert.
I am also sick of the because it was like this at launch we shouldn’t make a new DLC hard mentality. There is a lot of players who also left after that era because everything was a mindless cake walk. You don’t see yourself progress and become stronger in zone because you can beat the whole overland content in bogus gear and a crown stood broom without even dying.
The Go do vet trials and dungeons comment is also weak, one most of them are not even that hard and two they are stale one off instanced areas, and they also gate off most players due to knowing 11 other people with similar schedules. VMA and VDSA are the most unimaginative trials to date, just standing and fighting in a different retextured rectangle for multiple rounds. *yawns*
Finally this content isn’t forced onto you, it is an optional DLC. If DLCs were forced on to players we would actually have a population inside of Imperial City, because by your argument we forced it on them.

Nope.

Not interested in any way.

Edit = And besides, Dark Souls isn't "insanely" difficult either. Once you learn your timing with their slow-as-hell combat, the game is a cakewalk.

seedubsrun

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Nope.

Not interested in any way.

Edit = And besides, Dark Souls isn't "insanely" difficult either. Once you learn your timing with their slow-as-hell combat, the game is a cakewalk.

The last part here sorta inadvertently makes my point on this whole topic. I'd like to see more difficult quest line game play. I don't often get time to raid and all my friends I played with have long since abandoned the game so when I get a new DLC I'm mostly just getting questing. The stories are always great and exciting, the game play not so much. It's just too easy.

Now back to the quote. Dark Souls is known to be a hard game, hence the use of the reference that anyone can get, but like any hard game should be, once you understand the combat, learn the mechanics, hone your timing, it gets much easier.

The incredibly simple nature of normal combat in ESO doesn't force anyone to learn anything. That's why there's loads of threads on how dreadful PUGing can be. People run around and light attack things to death and then try a dungeon and wipe right out of the gate then get on the forums to complain about how the game is too hard.

The game offers a choice: actually try to get good, then get good, then complete content easier and face harder challenges or don't try, don't get good, limit your content you can take part in, and complain later. The latter gets the loudest voice because casual friendly = money. So the nerf hammer swings and things get dumbed down to appease the plebes. The gap between skill levels widens and we get threads like this one which is really just a bunch of people reasonably good at the game that just want more entertainment from content they pay for, which is reasonable.

I don't think there should be insanely hard content, I don't think we should necessarily be rewarded extra for completing content like that should it exist. What I do think is this:

Imagine if the game was harder from the start (It was, I get it, let's not get microscopic with this) not crazy hard but hard enough to the point where as you progress actually learning the mechanics of the game becomes necessary- how to construct a build, how to form a rotation, how to work skills with other players, etc. This isn't crazy talk, it's how a game like this should just be. Otherwise they could just have pre made toons. You pick one and just run around pressing the one attack button. Clearly this game was designed as something to learn and get better at.

You know what we'd all get? A game we love that's engaging in all aspects. One where you can usually group up with randoms and have a good time. One where anyone playing can enjoy all the content they paid for. One where that content can be more complex and mechanically demanding. All because you either learned how to play it or you went and played something else. So asking for insane difficult content is unwise and shouldn't happen but accepting easy content does you a disservice and allows gaming companies to essentially charge you $12 for a watered down whiskey-coke in a Solo cup. Maybe instead of endlessly squabbling over the same stuff for years, we form a consensus, find a middle ground, and ask for that in our game.

CardboardedBox

Mmmmm, I don't know. Something with super difficulty like that seems like a lot of people would pass on buying it, making it not too profitable from zos's side. Im not hating on the idea, I just don't know if it's something zos would go for or not. Maybe if it's packaged with something else?

Kiralyn2000

seedubsrun wrote: »

Imagine if the game was harder from the start (It was, I get it, let's not get microscopic with this) not crazy hard but hard enough to the point where as you progress actually learning the mechanics of the game becomes necessary- how to construct a build, how to form a rotation, how to work skills with other players, etc.

Thing is, I can't think of an MMO that actually teaches that in-game. It's all "go watch strats on Youtube, read the wiki, and watch these streamers" whenever people ask how to actually play, in every MMO forum I've ever visited. "How dare you step in a dungeon without having studied the boss fights first!"

Drummerx04

CardboardedBox wrote: »

Mmmmm, I don't know. Something with super difficulty like that seems like a lot of people would pass on buying it, making it not too profitable from zos's side. Im not hating on the idea, I just don't know if it's something zos would go for or not. Maybe if it's packaged with something else?

Right, except it is a DLC, so the ESO+ population would all have access to it. The number of people who would un sub just because the next DLC won't be an overworld snooze fest should be a pretty small percentage.

Dahveed

As someone who spends most of his time solo in this game (like 99.7% of my time), I endorse this idea tenfold. I always love to see Craglorn-style open world stuff.

As of now Craglorn is the only zone in the entire game that can kill my player, unless I fall asleep in front of my keyboard or accidentally unplug my mouse. Once they added the One Tamriel update every zone in the game became a joke.

Unfortunately ZoS probably wouldn't have the courage or inspiration to do this kind of thing, and even if they did they would be drowned by the tears of a million melting snowflakes on the forums and would probably have to nerf it anyways to accommodate everyone who always want their participation trophy.

khele23eb17_ESO

The problem with very difficult solo content is that it shines way too bright a light on any significant class imbalances.

Tommy_The_Gun

For me the difficulty of some of the content is simply mechanics... way more cheesy (and sometimes even unfair) than it should be. And if you will take a lag into account.. well... yeah...

In Dark Souls if you payed attention you could simply learn some stuff just by experience:
Bigger enemy = more dangerous one
Slower attack = more deadly one
Animation timing = key to win most of the battles

When I first played DS I i thought this game was way too difficult...
When I played DS II & III I thought that those game were way easier than DS I...

Compared to DS - ESO has almost nothing consistant. Sometimes some thing procs, sometimes (even if they should) they don't... the point is - unlike in DS series in ESO the rules of the game & certain mechanics change slightly thus making learning significantly more difficult.

Apherius

This game is awesome in term of Story ... graphisme but the difficulty is ... isn't here.

Let's took dungeon as exemple , do you remember WGT and ICP dungeons at their release ? They was ( and they still ) beautiful ! I remember that no one wanted to try these dungeon with me cause i was a noob, so i started watching some build ( yeah cause the eso Tutorial don't teach you anything unfortunaly except how to light attack/block and heavy attack) and i get good thank to one of the old Yolo wizard build, then i found a group to try WGT ... this was A W E S O M E... i don't remember how much time this took us to kill the first boss but ... he was so beautiful and the longer the fight was ... the most stressful it was... and once we killed it we was like " YEAH ! we did it", but the best is that this was only the first boss !

What i mean ? When a content is very hard and long, you get this stressful feeling at the 40/30% of the boss life ... and when you kill it you get this awesome feeling of acomplishment., at the moment you aren't like " Yeah i did this and this person did not , i'm better than him ! " NO,it's only the case when the content is easy as hell ... cause your goal isn't to kill the boss because lost the fight isn't an option anymore ... you goal is now to get more dps than your guildmate ...

IN dungeon they just need to make more tiers dificulty " inter " and " Expert " ... i find it funny to see that chests have more difficulty tier than dungeons.
And put your stuff and cp off isn't an option either , complete content should be a push through the limit using all the tool they give you , and increase artificially the difficulty by doing this won't give the feelling of acomplishment ... this will just make you sadder to kill a boss...naked .

So ,since dungeon become easier update after update ..." Imperial city dungeon ( at their realase) > Shadow of the hist dungeon > Horn of the reach dungeon " I agree with your idea.... we need content, nvm what is it ... just something hard.

Kamatsu

Always sadly amuses me to see people push the idea of "hard" content forced onto everyone - and while this if for an 'optional' dlc, anyone who wanted to do the story would be forced to struggle with it - forgetting the fact that those who like hard combat are an extreme minority of the playerbase.

Of course those in agreement with the idea always chip in with stories how their guilds and friends all left, and everyone wants harder content - this is association bias. Fact is people associate with like-minded people... thus those seeking challenges will generally seek each other out, and will not hang around those not interested in hard content. Thus when the content isn't hard enough, they see people, friends, guild mates, etc leaving.... but do not see the hordes of players who like it as it is staying.

---

Also, Dark Souls is not hard - it's a game of timing and memorization. As long as you can memorize the timings of the enemies attacks, and the attack patters, you have the game beat. It's why people can beat the game with only the starting gear and never having leveled up.... because they knew the timings of when to dodge, when to parry, when to block, when to attack, etc.

Oh, and if a person with a medical disability which effect's reflex's and response times can beat Dark Souls 1, 2, and 3... can't really call the games all that hard! lol

---

I did see someone suggest a harder server/instance for those who want it - I feel sad for those who want harder content, as this is the best option for them... but I doubt ZOS will go with it due to the increased cost's. This would be the best option imo because it gives those who want harder content what they want - ZOS can make the combat, ai, skills, etc better to make it a lot harder - without negatively effecting the game for everyone else.

There is a beacon of hope for this tho - I am sure ZOS knows there is a demand for harder content, but also knows that if they implemented it into the game for everyone they would chase more customers away than the harder content would draw in. However after many, many years Blizzard has finally capitulated and is opening a "Classic" WoW server.

How does this fit in? If this is successful for Blizzard and has enough patronage, it's quite possible that ZOS will decide that a more 'hard' server could be profitable for them as well.

Other than this though, after Craglorn was a dismal failure... I doubt you will see any mainstream content for ESO being "hard" or requiring groups - I'm talking the story & overland content, not dungeons or trials.

I may not personally like hard content, but I will say that an optional difficulty level/instance/server for those seeking to challenge themselves would be a great idea.

MakoFore

itd be good to have an opportunity to have gold overland jewellery sets like spriggans , 7th legion, necro, etc, etc- however they dropped. but a difficutl version of some world boses might be a way to do that- i wouldnt want to make it pay to win- behind a dlc paywall- but perhaps if you do the bangkorai vet dungeon, i think its blackheart haven, on super hard mode, you d get a chance drop fro gold rings/necks.
they need to re-add incentitves for people to re-visit delves and areas in the game. this isnt a one and done thing- this is systematic of the mmo format- something that they need to keep reconsidering at all times.

they did a great job with one tamriel at giving incentives for peopel to run dungeons, for the keys, and for the helms, but also the areas- makeing overland sets drop in certain areas- that was a good move in keeping each area stimulated and alive ,because belive me- i remember a day when you would walk around deshaan for hours and not see another soul, let alone any farming. and sets where so difficult to farm- you never knew what you were going to get from a dungeon, however you could sell/buy things- so it evened out.
so they did well with that- but its time to re-visit it- and keep it fresh- its been almost year anda half /2 years- and i think adding gold jeweellery to overland areas/group dungeons/delves/dolmens- whatever it may be - is the way to do it. alot of the gaming base how now matured- has all the sets- and are bored- now just want to tweak and improve it - if they can.
- provided it is behind a skill wall- not a farming/RNG/purchase wall i think this would be a motivating change for the community to get back into the game.

Girl_Number8

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

I would love to see an intensely Difficult DLC where the quests and delves and public dungeons made you fear to go alone. They could make it an oblivion gate themed dlc to allow some instancing to create a creepy dark looming feel without seeing 20 other players in zone plowing through the quests.

• Make the quests encourage the use of smart pulling or sneaking past mobs
• Add certain environment activated effects such as levers or traps inside of dungeons that can One Hit kill player or enemies (Think Amped up thieves guild traps)
• Have a new 4 person trial like vDSA a the new raid within it

I think having a hardcore difficult questing zone that has vibes of dark souls esk style risk would be a very rewarding addition to the questing community for as it is currently you just steam roll the content. Maybe they make it when you enter the oblivion gate DLC you are cut off from the mundus, and thus your CP is disabled, this would make for some interesting play where one cannot out scale the content by a large amount and make running hybrid builds to beat the content possibly more valid. I am primarily a PvP'er and have found the only challenging PvE was vDSA,.vMA, and vMoL (the last trial I completed before going fully to pvp).

I think the Zenimax emp loyees disservice their great story quests by not helping increase the immersion and feeling of danger, the need to... ask for help to do a quest. These things are common in many MMOs where all quests are solo'd but I think a DLC where they made things so hard only the elite could go alone and not without a fair share of suffering, all else would band with their friends, it would make for some great content and enhance and enrich the story and aura of urgency to save x from y within the DLC.

I think once ZoS takes care of this they can next introduce a new PVP dlc with a factionless open world pvp zone as it's focus.

Thoughts?
ZoS Job Offers?

Post script 1: I think commenters are lost in the , but it’s just elitist trying to be elitist comments due to me saying its dangerous to go alone without much suffering. The whole point of that comment was because I was inferring that difficulty is used as a deterrent so folks would actually need to group for overland content that isn’t mass farming dolmens in Alikr Desert.
I am also sick of the because it was like this at launch we shouldn’t make a new DLC hard mentality. There is a lot of players who also left after that era because everything was a mindless cake walk. You don’t see yourself progress and become stronger in zone because you can beat the whole overland content in bogus gear and a crown stood broom without even dying.
The Go do vet trials and dungeons comment is also weak, one most of them are not even that hard and two they are stale one off instanced areas, and they also gate off most players due to knowing 11 other people with similar schedules. VMA and VDSA are the most unimaginative trials to date, just standing and fighting in a different retextured rectangle for multiple rounds. *yawns*
Finally this content isn’t forced onto you, it is an optional DLC. If DLCs were forced on to players we would actually have a population inside of Imperial City, because by your argument we forced it on them.

NO!! Take your tech manual intro and go play Dark Souls. Elite uh huh, smh.

A lot of players left after the nerfs destroyed their builds, the servers became worse, and the company became more greedy, not because of easy content. The game is already broken af they really need to fix that first, so people can actually do the quests.

Jade1986

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

1. People dont like to group quest.

PEOPLE DONT LIKE TO GROUP QUEST.

I dont understand why people just dont *** get this. There's allways gonna be the one guy who wants to sit there and lisen to somethin', one guy who just wants to rush, it's easier to just quest alone and because Craglorn is too hard to solo completely, it failed.

CRAGLORN IS LIVING PROOF OF WHY THIS VISION IS TRASH. So going ahed and trying to retain people by doing this isn't gonna *** work.

2. I dont underestimate how many players are actually true 'end game'. I just dont friggin care.

They should have no bearing on what content is produced outside of annual trial and dungeon content. Sorry. But we've tried it your way, it just isn't profitable or -worth- a damn.

You seem to be against this idea of forced grouping rather strongly, and you'll notice that I was also against it. I simply think the mobs you find in the wild for this proposed DLC should be an actual threat and be scaled up relative to other zones. I suggested vMA as a starting point because the mobs in there hit hard, but they don't have 300k+ health, so low skill players in the zone wouldn't take 5 years to kill an add.

There was a time when I wasn't very good at the game and I wandered into craglorn and was summarily defeated, but that made it more interesting because I knew I had some character building to do. One day I knew I could come back and explore craglorn more freely, and when I finally could handle the zone I got exploring and killing everything I could and it was hella fun. Also note that this was well after Craglorn's initial release and it was and still is my favorite zone.

And finding help on quests in Craglorn was such a problem because of the way the game phases quests. It's not that no one wanted to help me with Crag quests, it's that no one could help me with Crag quests because they already completed them. If ZOS just allowed players to actually group and repeat the quest content with their friends (with perhaps only gold rewarded at the end of the second playthrough of a quest to prevent exploits), I doubt it would have been such a problem.

You also really can't use Craglorn as your example because the majority of the current playerbase did not see it at release and the game is also quite different now with CP, gear power, and widely available build guide videos online. It really is just time for ZOS to try it again with everything they've learned about making content.

I can use it. Because I saw it at release.

I saw the original game at release too. Wanna know what drove me away within the first month of launch? What drove so many people away, what was the eventual nail in the coffin for the sub model which killed the casual want to play even further?

The difficulty of the vet zones.

Face it. What you want cannot work. The center cannot hold.

Isn’t that just your fallacy of why everyone left. You are one user, yet you speak for everyone that quit? A lot of people left because of lack of content, there was no raids at release, there was a time before craglorn. People didn’t leave because of challenging thoughtful content it was just a monotonous unrewarding grind and when you wanted to try a new character it started all over again so people felt trapped in their class. I originally left due to the gross class imbalance of PvP when it was actually just elder staves online, it wasn’t even pve related, but you spoke for me right? Don’t attribute an absolute modifier and an unprovable point to counter an argument you don’t like because it honestly is derailing a constructive post.

Firstly, I think your confusing fallacy and theory.

Secondly, I know there was a time before craglorn, I was there. First thirty days of release. (Switching internet providers ate that account, but yes, I was there.) And part of the problem was the lack of content, part of it was the grind, but the thing that ultimately drove casuals away was the balls out hard nature of the game.

That's the thing. It drove so many players away who came back in droves when the stupid scaling, difficulty, and sub requirement was dropped. So dont give me that. Really. Dont.

As for you, go ahed and speak for yourself. But dont attribute your dark souls zone as the be all end all cure for this games ills, because not only will it not, it'll sell like absolute ass and be a losing investment.

Also. Nothing about this thread is constructive. It's childish demanding, throwing crap at anyone who disagrees. You want your zone. Screw anyone who thinks different because it will make you happy and damn whether or not the idea is popular or profitable. Well, life dont work like that.

Actually the main thing that drove people away at launch was the god awful servers and datacenters. It caused the EU population to completely tank.

Also, IRL, people learn through adversity, so yes, it actually does work like that.

itsfatbass

I do love this idea. Would be awesome having an overland zone with a much higher difficulty then currently. Anyone can steamroll the stuff right now with 1 hand.

NightbladeMechanics

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

I would love to see an intensely Difficult DLC where the quests and delves and public dungeons made you fear to go alone.

This was IC on launch. The mix of herds of players storming through the whole place, predatory small groups and gankers lurking, and insanely difficult PvE bosses made it such a thrill.

Doctordarkspawn

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

I would love to see an intensely Difficult DLC where the quests and delves and public dungeons made you fear to go alone.

This was IC on launch. The mix of herds of players storming through the whole place, predatory small groups and gankers lurking, and insanely difficult PvE bosses made it such a thrill.

For you.

Then again, you've fetishized IC to the point where you said that transmog (Back when it was purely cosmetic as an idea) should revovle entirely around IC, so there you go.

Doctordarkspawn

Kamatsu wrote: »

Always sadly amuses me to see people push the idea of "hard" content forced onto everyone - and while this if for an 'optional' dlc, anyone who wanted to do the story would be forced to struggle with it - forgetting the fact that those who like hard combat are an extreme minority of the playerbase.

Of course those in agreement with the idea always chip in with stories how their guilds and friends all left, and everyone wants harder content - this is association bias. Fact is people associate with like-minded people... thus those seeking challenges will generally seek each other out, and will not hang around those not interested in hard content. Thus when the content isn't hard enough, they see people, friends, guild mates, etc leaving.... but do not see the hordes of players who like it as it is staying.

---

Also, Dark Souls is not hard - it's a game of timing and memorization. As long as you can memorize the timings of the enemies attacks, and the attack patters, you have the game beat. It's why people can beat the game with only the starting gear and never having leveled up.... because they knew the timings of when to dodge, when to parry, when to block, when to attack, etc.

Oh, and if a person with a medical disability which effect's reflex's and response times can beat Dark Souls 1, 2, and 3... can't really call the games all that hard! lol

---

I did see someone suggest a harder server/instance for those who want it - I feel sad for those who want harder content, as this is the best option for them... but I doubt ZOS will go with it due to the increased cost's. This would be the best option imo because it gives those who want harder content what they want - ZOS can make the combat, ai, skills, etc better to make it a lot harder - without negatively effecting the game for everyone else.

There is a beacon of hope for this tho - I am sure ZOS knows there is a demand for harder content, but also knows that if they implemented it into the game for everyone they would chase more customers away than the harder content would draw in. However after many, many years Blizzard has finally capitulated and is opening a "Classic" WoW server.

How does this fit in? If this is successful for Blizzard and has enough patronage, it's quite possible that ZOS will decide that a more 'hard' server could be profitable for them as well.

Other than this though, after Craglorn was a dismal failure... I doubt you will see any mainstream content for ESO being "hard" or requiring groups - I'm talking the story & overland content, not dungeons or trials.

I may not personally like hard content, but I will say that an optional difficulty level/instance/server for those seeking to challenge themselves would be a great idea.

This.

Personally, I dont really care if there becomes a hard mode server. So long as it does not shaft the rest of us. But it's inception depends entirely on success precedent in the industry and demand.

And, we're not certain demand is going to be up to snuff.

Nyx2

"Dark Souls difficulty"? You mean we will be able to complete content without armor if we're skilled enough? Trials are already difficult enough for beginners as nobody is willing to run with them. But the overall content of ESO is at the same time way too easy.

Nova Sky

Perhaps this was already addressed upthread, but ZOS already attempted a difficult zone.

It was Craglorn. The so-called adventure zone that, in its earlier days, WAS a challenge. People didn't particularly like it. Well, not enough people. It was on the verge of becoming a forgotten zone — about the only people there were the gluttons for punishment and nirncrux hunters (me) — so ZOS eased the overland difficulty. People repopulated the zone, and the rest is, more or less, history.

So, yeah, not a new idea. Been there, done that, in ESO.

Autumnhart

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

I would love to see an intensely Difficult DLC where the quests and delves and public dungeons made you fear to go alone.

This was IC on launch. The mix of herds of players storming through the whole place, predatory small groups and gankers lurking, and insanely difficult PvE bosses made it such a thrill.

Agree. It was beautiful.

It isn't the failure of Craglorn that's the most instructive about what level of challenge the playerbase actually wants - it's the failure of IC.

Rex-Umbra

They need to improve npcs every where they are slow to react and usually die before landing their 50 dmg attack.

Iccotak

Feanor wrote: »

crjs1 wrote: »

I think DLCs should be accessible to all who pay for them so not insanly difficult - though difficulty options would be good. I think zos and many players are burned by the craglorn experience which quickly died - so I wouldn’t expect a difficult zone anytime soon. I still believe all quest content should be soloable, no exceptions.

The problem with Craglorn was not that it was hard, but that it artificially required grouping up even for the quest line. It was totally unnecessary because the difficulty would have been great otherwise.

If you make them "harder" then people will just get in groups to handle it.

seedubsrun

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

seedubsrun wrote: »

Imagine if the game was harder from the start (It was, I get it, let's not get microscopic with this) not crazy hard but hard enough to the point where as you progress actually learning the mechanics of the game becomes necessary- how to construct a build, how to form a rotation, how to work skills with other players, etc.

Thing is, I can't think of an MMO that actually teaches that in-game. It's all "go watch strats on Youtube, read the wiki, and watch these streamers" whenever people ask how to actually play, in every MMO forum I've ever visited. "How dare you step in a dungeon without having studied the boss fights first!"

Yep I totally agree with you. I think the question to ask here though is "should that be the way it is?" It seems like we're caught between MMOs of the past where you got online and learned to be good or you didn't play and current games that cater to casuals to make money. Seems like the answer is in between. Problem is games for casuals *** off people who want a challenge and games for people who want to be good don't reach the audience companies are after. Guess video games are dead and we should all just get way into Parcheesi

Bhaal5

Darksouls with a terrible servers?
Hmmmm no thanks, vma is bad enough

Egonieser

Autumnhart wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

I would love to see an intensely Difficult DLC where the quests and delves and public dungeons made you fear to go alone.

This was IC on launch. The mix of herds of players storming through the whole place, predatory small groups and gankers lurking, and insanely difficult PvE bosses made it such a thrill.

Agree. It was beautiful.

It isn't the failure of Craglorn that's the most instructive about what level of challenge the playerbase actually wants - it's the failure of IC.

IC failed due to lack of any meaningful content. Idea of IC and it's difficulty was fine for the most part, but people did not get incentivised enough to return there after the initial quests, bosses, drops were done. It sadly needed (still needs) some kind of dynamic event system or at least half-decent capture/PvP locations. It has ideal layout for some epic fighting, lots of open spaces, closed spaces, spaces inhabited with dangerous creatures (used to be, now it's all nerfed to oblivion) which could've made for some fun, dynamic fights for all walks of life, but the only "update" it got was blanket nerf for every challenging mob and added a few capture flags in the most boring and generic locations possible.

When district capture was a thing of debate, most people (that participated) wanted at least encouragement to utilize the entire district, or least some of the most prominent of it's locations, instead we got one flag per district and 3 weakass guards (really?!). I don't recall (apart from a few whiners) the actual difficulty of IC ever being a problem. Nor did I see people in-game complaining about it. The problem was, and still is the actual lack of meaningful content or incentives to return, as it stands it's just a minor extension to Cyrodiil that requires a DLC payment to enter (a payment totally unjustified for the amount of content it delivers).
The blanket nerfs (and more recently, consolidating barter currency into one) was not a response to people complaining about difficult content in IC, it was an attempt to encourage people to go there at all, because you are most certainly not missing out on anything if you don't go there, it simply does not have anything meaningful to do. A short and boring main quest, few bosses and flags to capture. And an extremely boring grind of Molag's Left and Right Balls if you are into the cosmetic fluff it drops every once in a century.

The only meaningful items it had were Willpower/Agility etc sets, but even those became absolete (easy to get, not useless) with their introduction in daily random dungeon rewards and has dwindled the IC population even more.

All in all, IC was a failure set from the start. During 2014 QuakeCon it was promised to be so much more, but what we actually got was just a watered down, rushed release. (Being the first paid DLC a year late, i assume they were really struggling for cash and quickly needed extra sales and pushed it out half-finished). But because it never took off, they will not actually fix it anymore as the bad stigma attached to it has already done it's damage and most likely will never take off.
It has the ideal layout, but the poorest content of the entire game i can think of.