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A Difficult PVE DLC - Dark Souls Difficulty
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Zorvan✭✭✭✭Man if this was a let’s create a new Cyrodiil thread it would have 5 comments and 10 views, try make PvE competitive and it’s like poking the care bears
Because, as usual, you're making the fatal mistake of thinking PvP matters in the overall scheme of any PvE oriented mmo. The only ones PvP'ers are in real competition with are the RP'ers, the competition being "Who has THE smallest playerbase in the game?". Let me spell it out for you: PvE > raiders > RPers > PvP'ers ( I only put RPers ahead of PvPers because RPers are at least usually likeable, but maybe you guys have one or two more than them, who knows ).
Anyway, on topic, no thanks to Craglorn type crap. I don't do groups. And in this game, that puts me in the majority.
Oh yeah, aren't you a likeable person... >_>
Nope. I said RP'ers are usually likeable. I'm not an RP'er.I've been muted since November 2017 because of the whiny crybabies on this forum and the liberal ZOS employees coddling them.0 -
Grabmoore✭✭✭✭✭Yea, no.
Try soloing vet dungeons if you want that level of difficulty, after that, solo trials.
Still no enough?
Go play suicide mode on Dasksouls if you want to bang your head against a wall.
Here we have the classic "Go solo vet dungeons" or "play naked" argument.
The main issue with this is we are not looking for challenging content just because it's hard. We want it to have rewards for the player overcoming challenges that not everyone can do. It's not enjoyable to do content for no reason, especially in an MMO.
Casuals can clear vet dungeons and get rewards
Theres where you have a big problem for a lot of people. Putting in content that "not everyone can do", period, is a terrible idea. The last thing you want to do to you game is alienate potentially paying customers. We shouldnt be supporting any of this 1%er bull in a video game. Every player deserves the possibility to experience all content regardless of skill.
So why does ZOS make DLC vet dungeons, vTrials, vMa, vDSA etc? It's not like they are completely against the idea of making hard content. It's just the last few iterations of it have been 12 man.
The general rule of thumb nowadays is an easy mode overland map + a hard trial or dungeon or similar per DLC. I see no reason why this formula cannot be swapped around. Give us a hard overland map with an easy mode dungeon for the casuals
ArchMikem
because all of those trials dungeons etc - come in normal mode. your swap around idea would ONLy work if that zone had hard and normal modes available
Well duhhh
except this doesn't seems to be what OP and others like them want. they want "difficult inaccessible" content for most people. no "easy" mode. and when they say difficult, they really mean "twitchy" and what they actualy want is special rewards they can show off becasue its the only way they can feel good - by feeling superior to "carebears" in a video game.
this funny thing about grouping is that even people who like to play in a group - don't really like being forced to group. coordinating schedules is a pain. you cannot just expect people to be available at a drop of a hat AND want to do the same content you want to do. this is why trials typically get scheduled well in advance, AFTER figuring out who has what availability to come up with a timeslot that is workable and in vast majority of cases - are only run couple of times a week at most.
the real reason why wow became as popular as it did? was because it was
1. easier than everything else on the market and
2. 2. didn't require group for VAST majority of the content. it was at the time the only accessible mmo, where people could play with other people, without being forced into playing ONLY with other people.
Well I have the impression most people just want a difficulty available they personally like to play in, not force it upon others...
They want this difficulty to feel superior. Here is a quote from OP: "but I think a DLC where they made things so hard only the elite could go alone and not without a fair share of suffering, all else would band with their friends".
Not my words, his. We don't need difficult solo content, only ego brains want to show off their elite skills...
I agree that new refreshing content for 2-3 players would be nice. On the other side, who would play this besides the bored endgamers we are? Noone. They rest wouldn't even care one bit, if this DLC dropped.EU - PC - Ebonheart Pact
Iggy Grabmoore - Argonian Magicka Templar | Nyctasha - Redguard Stamina Nightblade
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Rickter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That DLC was called "Craglorn" when we were all Veteran Rank 12
it was hard, required grouping, and well. . . hardRickterESO
PC | NA | DC
YouTube
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Guilds: PvP:Bloodletter | StamDK | Alliance Rank 46 | Former Emperor of Shor (2018) | Former Emperor of Thornblade #4terms (2015)PvE:vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMA | vDSA | vMoL | ALL Vet 4 Man Dungeons3 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Just a bit of confusion.... I thought 'carebears' was the gradeschool-bully epithet thrown at PvEers who don't want to PvP. Wasn't the proper term PvEers sneering at other PvEers, 'casuals'?3 -
Robo_Hobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭As much as I would enjoy something like that, or even just something similar to pre-one tamriel overland difficulty (despite that I actually really like one tamriel for every other reason) it probably won't and likely shouldn't happen.
I do feel for the people who struggle with combat and just want to enjoy the story, and as an elder scrolls game I think accessibility to that story should always be paramount. If we ever get something in the future that allows for an optional hard mode for some new dlc quests that would be great, but I think that's probably the most that we can expect for difficulty inside quest content.
I doubt that will even happen though, because it seems like any time "difficult quest content" is so much as mentioned, most people assume you're just an elitist and that you should go do x trial or vet dungeon for that difficulty. Personally it's more of a matter of making the plot of the story more interesting to me, any time a big bad antagonist with supposedly so much power, actually has some power when it comes to fighting them is always refreshing and engaging. The opposite requires a lot of suspension of disbelief.2 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What about a compromise and simply allow some mob types to hit harder than others, I mean a lot harder, like in Skyrim, when you see 2 frost trolls while you are still under level 15. This usually means you have to run for your life or quickly press save before engaging. Same goes for Ice Wraiths or a camp of Giants and their beloved Mammoths. These creatures could or should cause a similar amount of fearsome devastation in ESO (for all players). Otherwise, when questing around and avoiding above creatures, things are, indeed, fairly relaxing.
Why not also have larger packs of roaming, random, rare and dynamic bandits or bears or daedra or whatever makes sense for the area, that will seriously f you up if you accidentally run head first into them. The world doesn't have to be entirely overrun with murderous beasts, but there should be at least enough of them around to make you feel as if you better be aware of your surroundings or your character could, as a matter of fact, meet his salty... salty end. What fun is there in exploring, otherwise? Overland bosses are just not enough on their own, as stationary as they are, to make you think twice before running boredly ahead without a care in the world.
I think it would feel exciting to have situations where other player characters, minding their own business and questing, but noticing a rare event-like rumbling of creatures in the distance, make the choice to join in and try and help you defeat a massive gaggle of gruesome and treacherous gibbering skeletons and decomposing drauger wandering obediently behind their enormous Necromancer Overlord, roaming freely across the entire map, noisily making all kinds of trouble for anyone encountering them. Stuff like this could really provide a fun and memorable experience for everyone, even more notably so if there were some solid rewards to be gained from fighting them (drops of semi-rare fragments of a cool costume, or, even more rare, one of many map-themed ingame mounts?).
It would be good for the game as a whole if this type of stuff could be found in every map, not just DLC, but maybe with new DLC, the mobs and the stories and the events could become even more dynamic and detailed, more large-scale perhaps, with more intelligent AI, more banter between enemy NPCs, with creatures in delves and public dungeons having longer leashes for them to find you or sense you with. The ante just being up'ed a little more than in starter zones, with more immersion and more atmosphere, just more time spent by the devs fleshing things out tension-wise in addition to all the story content they excel at creating.
I don't know. I both agree that I don't want new zones like Old Craglorn (with hard stops on solo questing) or an entire DLC unavoidably Dark Soulsesque, but I definitely do not agree that the level of difficulty and excitement is anywhere near where it should be as things stand now, not within the vanilla questing zones or in any of the DLC we are getting. Combat is "DULL" when nothing can kill you. You, as the geared, champion-point maxed hero you are. If we can maybe compromise and add more punishing creatures and memorable events, ones that are entirely avoidable by newer players or, um, super relaxed players, so long as they have eyeballs and ear sockets in their heads, I think everyone can win here.
Personally I think that would be a GREAT halfway point. There could be mobs here and there, that are avoidable if people want to, that are far FAR more difficult. I remember in wrothgar when it was released how some of the mobs were much harder. It could be like that. And we def need some super mammoths, frost trolls, wandering bosses, etc too. Skyrim is the best example, when you were delving and you breezed through 999999999999 normal vampires or skellies and then at the end ran into a master vampire that would knock your socks off if you werent on your toes.Edited by Jade1986 on November 17, 2017 2:00PM2 -
Niobium✭✭✭✭seedubsrun wrote: »Yea, no.
Try soloing vet dungeons if you want that level of difficulty, after that, solo trials.
Still no enough?
Go play suicide mode on Dasksouls if you want to bang your head against a wall.
Here we have the classic "Go solo vet dungeons" or "play naked" argument.
The main issue with this is we are not looking for challenging content just because it's hard. We want it to have rewards for the player overcoming challenges that not everyone can do. It's not enjoyable to do content for no reason, especially in an MMO.
Casuals can clear vet dungeons and get rewards
More advanced players should be able to earn better rewards (ie gold jewlery, perfect weapons, vma weapons)
A DLC like this would be no different, except it would be catered towards solo play rather than large raid groups.
I remember my first time clearing vma, and first time getting flawless. There isn't another jnstance in this game that has replicated that amazing experience. Except maybe vDSA
So yeah, it's not just about wanting hard content, it's about wanting hard MEANINGFUL content.
Exactly. If you're an extremely good basketball player that's bored beating all the other neighborhood players you don't cover the court in broken glass and play with no shoes on for an additional challenge, you go try out for a minor or pro league to get meaningful challenge that fulfills you
Equally so, if you're an extremely good basketball player you don't expect your local court to be able to cater to your desire to be in the minor or pro leagues. You go to another court.2 -
Drummerx04✭✭✭✭✭
✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »
1. People dont like to group quest.
PEOPLE DONT LIKE TO GROUP QUEST.
I dont understand why people just dont *** get this. There's allways gonna be the one guy who wants to sit there and lisen to somethin', one guy who just wants to rush, it's easier to just quest alone and because Craglorn is too hard to solo completely, it failed.
CRAGLORN IS LIVING PROOF OF WHY THIS VISION IS TRASH. So going ahed and trying to retain people by doing this isn't gonna *** work.
2. I dont underestimate how many players are actually true 'end game'. I just dont friggin care.
They should have no bearing on what content is produced outside of annual trial and dungeon content. Sorry. But we've tried it your way, it just isn't profitable or -worth- a damn.
You seem to be against this idea of forced grouping rather strongly, and you'll notice that I was also against it. I simply think the mobs you find in the wild for this proposed DLC should be an actual threat and be scaled up relative to other zones. I suggested vMA as a starting point because the mobs in there hit hard, but they don't have 300k+ health, so low skill players in the zone wouldn't take 5 years to kill an add.
There was a time when I wasn't very good at the game and I wandered into craglorn and was summarily defeated, but that made it more interesting because I knew I had some character building to do. One day I knew I could come back and explore craglorn more freely, and when I finally could handle the zone I got exploring and killing everything I could and it was hella fun. Also note that this was well after Craglorn's initial release and it was and still is my favorite zone.
And finding help on quests in Craglorn was such a problem because of the way the game phases quests. It's not that no one wanted to help me with Crag quests, it's that no one could help me with Crag quests because they already completed them. If ZOS just allowed players to actually group and repeat the quest content with their friends (with perhaps only gold rewarded at the end of the second playthrough of a quest to prevent exploits), I doubt it would have been such a problem.
You also really can't use Craglorn as your example because the majority of the current playerbase did not see it at release and the game is also quite different now with CP, gear power, and widely available build guide videos online. It really is just time for ZOS to try it again with everything they've learned about making content.PC/NA - Nightfighters, Raid Leader and Officer
Lilith Arujo - DC sorc tank/dps/healer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, Gryphon Heart, Grand Warlord
Lilith Tortorici - DC templar trials healer
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Bot Scanner 2000
Lilith's Command History
Maintained Addons:
Kill Counter1 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yea, no.
Try soloing vet dungeons if you want that level of difficulty, after that, solo trials.
Still no enough?
Go play suicide mode on Dasksouls if you want to bang your head against a wall.
Here we have the classic "Go solo vet dungeons" or "play naked" argument.
The main issue with this is we are not looking for challenging content just because it's hard. We want it to have rewards for the player overcoming challenges that not everyone can do. It's not enjoyable to do content for no reason, especially in an MMO.
Casuals can clear vet dungeons and get rewards
Theres where you have a big problem for a lot of people. Putting in content that "not everyone can do", period, is a terrible idea. The last thing you want to do to you game is alienate potentially paying customers. We shouldnt be supporting any of this 1%er bull in a video game. Every player deserves the possibility to experience all content regardless of skill.
So why does ZOS make DLC vet dungeons, vTrials, vMa, vDSA etc? It's not like they are completely against the idea of making hard content. It's just the last few iterations of it have been 12 man.
The general rule of thumb nowadays is an easy mode overland map + a hard trial or dungeon or similar per DLC. I see no reason why this formula cannot be swapped around. Give us a hard overland map with an easy mode dungeon for the casuals
ArchMikem
because all of those trials dungeons etc - come in normal mode. your swap around idea would ONLy work if that zone had hard and normal modes available
Well duhhh
except this doesn't seems to be what OP and others like them want. they want "difficult inaccessible" content for most people. no "easy" mode. and when they say difficult, they really mean "twitchy" and what they actualy want is special rewards they can show off becasue its the only way they can feel good - by feeling superior to "carebears" in a video game.
this funny thing about grouping is that even people who like to play in a group - don't really like being forced to group. coordinating schedules is a pain. you cannot just expect people to be available at a drop of a hat AND want to do the same content you want to do. this is why trials typically get scheduled well in advance, AFTER figuring out who has what availability to come up with a timeslot that is workable and in vast majority of cases - are only run couple of times a week at most.
the real reason why wow became as popular as it did? was because it was
1. easier than everything else on the market and
2. 2. didn't require group for VAST majority of the content. it was at the time the only accessible mmo, where people could play with other people, without being forced into playing ONLY with other people.
Well I have the impression most people just want a difficulty available they personally like to play in, not force it upon others...
They want this difficulty to feel superior. Here is a quote from OP: "but I think a DLC where they made things so hard only the elite could go alone and not without a fair share of suffering, all else would band with their friends".
Not my words, his. We don't need difficult solo content, only ego brains want to show off their elite skills...
I agree that new refreshing content for 2-3 players would be nice. On the other side, who would play this besides the bored endgamers we are? Noone. They rest wouldn't even care one bit, if this DLC dropped.
I wrote most people, not anything about the OP.
I would love a difficult zone and I know others who would as well. I wouldn't care if there was an easier version, I just want to have some engaging gameplay for once outside of veteran DLC dungeons and PvP.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU1 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Drummerx04 wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »
1. People dont like to group quest.
PEOPLE DONT LIKE TO GROUP QUEST.
I dont understand why people just dont *** get this. There's allways gonna be the one guy who wants to sit there and lisen to somethin', one guy who just wants to rush, it's easier to just quest alone and because Craglorn is too hard to solo completely, it failed.
CRAGLORN IS LIVING PROOF OF WHY THIS VISION IS TRASH. So going ahed and trying to retain people by doing this isn't gonna *** work.
2. I dont underestimate how many players are actually true 'end game'. I just dont friggin care.
They should have no bearing on what content is produced outside of annual trial and dungeon content. Sorry. But we've tried it your way, it just isn't profitable or -worth- a damn.
You seem to be against this idea of forced grouping rather strongly, and you'll notice that I was also against it. I simply think the mobs you find in the wild for this proposed DLC should be an actual threat and be scaled up relative to other zones. I suggested vMA as a starting point because the mobs in there hit hard, but they don't have 300k+ health, so low skill players in the zone wouldn't take 5 years to kill an add.
There was a time when I wasn't very good at the game and I wandered into craglorn and was summarily defeated, but that made it more interesting because I knew I had some character building to do. One day I knew I could come back and explore craglorn more freely, and when I finally could handle the zone I got exploring and killing everything I could and it was hella fun. Also note that this was well after Craglorn's initial release and it was and still is my favorite zone.
And finding help on quests in Craglorn was such a problem because of the way the game phases quests. It's not that no one wanted to help me with Crag quests, it's that no one could help me with Crag quests because they already completed them. If ZOS just allowed players to actually group and repeat the quest content with their friends (with perhaps only gold rewarded at the end of the second playthrough of a quest to prevent exploits), I doubt it would have been such a problem.
You also really can't use Craglorn as your example because the majority of the current playerbase did not see it at release and the game is also quite different now with CP, gear power, and widely available build guide videos online. It really is just time for ZOS to try it again with everything they've learned about making content.
I can use it. Because I saw it at release.
I saw the original game at release too. Wanna know what drove me away within the first month of launch? What drove so many people away, what was the eventual nail in the coffin for the sub model which killed the casual want to play even further?
The difficulty of the vet zones.
Face it. What you want cannot work. The center cannot hold.2 -
A_G_G_R_O✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Drummerx04 wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »
1. People dont like to group quest.
PEOPLE DONT LIKE TO GROUP QUEST.
I dont understand why people just dont *** get this. There's allways gonna be the one guy who wants to sit there and lisen to somethin', one guy who just wants to rush, it's easier to just quest alone and because Craglorn is too hard to solo completely, it failed.
CRAGLORN IS LIVING PROOF OF WHY THIS VISION IS TRASH. So going ahed and trying to retain people by doing this isn't gonna *** work.
2. I dont underestimate how many players are actually true 'end game'. I just dont friggin care.
They should have no bearing on what content is produced outside of annual trial and dungeon content. Sorry. But we've tried it your way, it just isn't profitable or -worth- a damn.
You seem to be against this idea of forced grouping rather strongly, and you'll notice that I was also against it. I simply think the mobs you find in the wild for this proposed DLC should be an actual threat and be scaled up relative to other zones. I suggested vMA as a starting point because the mobs in there hit hard, but they don't have 300k+ health, so low skill players in the zone wouldn't take 5 years to kill an add.
There was a time when I wasn't very good at the game and I wandered into craglorn and was summarily defeated, but that made it more interesting because I knew I had some character building to do. One day I knew I could come back and explore craglorn more freely, and when I finally could handle the zone I got exploring and killing everything I could and it was hella fun. Also note that this was well after Craglorn's initial release and it was and still is my favorite zone.
And finding help on quests in Craglorn was such a problem because of the way the game phases quests. It's not that no one wanted to help me with Crag quests, it's that no one could help me with Crag quests because they already completed them. If ZOS just allowed players to actually group and repeat the quest content with their friends (with perhaps only gold rewarded at the end of the second playthrough of a quest to prevent exploits), I doubt it would have been such a problem.
You also really can't use Craglorn as your example because the majority of the current playerbase did not see it at release and the game is also quite different now with CP, gear power, and widely available build guide videos online. It really is just time for ZOS to try it again with everything they've learned about making content.
I can use it. Because I saw it at release.
I saw the original game at release too. Wanna know what drove me away within the first month of launch? What drove so many people away, what was the eventual nail in the coffin for the sub model which killed the casual want to play even further?
The difficulty of the vet zones.
Face it. What you want cannot work. The center cannot hold.
Isn’t that just your fallacy of why everyone left. You are one user, yet you speak for everyone that quit? A lot of people left because of lack of content, there was no raids at release, there was a time before craglorn. People didn’t leave because of challenging thoughtful content it was just a monotonous unrewarding grind and when you wanted to try a new character it started all over again so people felt trapped in their class. I originally left due to the gross class imbalance of PvP when it was actually just elder staves online, it wasn’t even pve related, but you spoke for me right? Don’t attribute an absolute modifier and an unprovable point to counter an argument you don’t like because it honestly is derailing a constructive post.
1 -
Asardes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It won't sell since > 90% of players are casual players who don't have the time or the willingness to gear up, train rotations and understand complex mechanics. They intended to do that with the veteran zones and Craglorn but ended up bringing them to the same difficulty as the normal game content since they were so empty and people didn't want to play there. I think the current formula of non-instanced overland content being easy and accessible to the casual player, and harder instanced group content with two or more levels of difficulty has become standard because it ends up catering to all players.Beta tester since February 2014, played ESO-TU October 2015 - August 2022, currently on an extended break
vMA (The Flawless Conqueror) | vVH (Spirit Slayer & of the Undying Song) | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vAS+1 | Emperor
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Claudius Tharn | 50 Necromancer | DC AR 20 |
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Characters:
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Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Drummerx04 wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »
1. People dont like to group quest.
PEOPLE DONT LIKE TO GROUP QUEST.
I dont understand why people just dont *** get this. There's allways gonna be the one guy who wants to sit there and lisen to somethin', one guy who just wants to rush, it's easier to just quest alone and because Craglorn is too hard to solo completely, it failed.
CRAGLORN IS LIVING PROOF OF WHY THIS VISION IS TRASH. So going ahed and trying to retain people by doing this isn't gonna *** work.
2. I dont underestimate how many players are actually true 'end game'. I just dont friggin care.
They should have no bearing on what content is produced outside of annual trial and dungeon content. Sorry. But we've tried it your way, it just isn't profitable or -worth- a damn.
You seem to be against this idea of forced grouping rather strongly, and you'll notice that I was also against it. I simply think the mobs you find in the wild for this proposed DLC should be an actual threat and be scaled up relative to other zones. I suggested vMA as a starting point because the mobs in there hit hard, but they don't have 300k+ health, so low skill players in the zone wouldn't take 5 years to kill an add.
There was a time when I wasn't very good at the game and I wandered into craglorn and was summarily defeated, but that made it more interesting because I knew I had some character building to do. One day I knew I could come back and explore craglorn more freely, and when I finally could handle the zone I got exploring and killing everything I could and it was hella fun. Also note that this was well after Craglorn's initial release and it was and still is my favorite zone.
And finding help on quests in Craglorn was such a problem because of the way the game phases quests. It's not that no one wanted to help me with Crag quests, it's that no one could help me with Crag quests because they already completed them. If ZOS just allowed players to actually group and repeat the quest content with their friends (with perhaps only gold rewarded at the end of the second playthrough of a quest to prevent exploits), I doubt it would have been such a problem.
You also really can't use Craglorn as your example because the majority of the current playerbase did not see it at release and the game is also quite different now with CP, gear power, and widely available build guide videos online. It really is just time for ZOS to try it again with everything they've learned about making content.
I can use it. Because I saw it at release.
I saw the original game at release too. Wanna know what drove me away within the first month of launch? What drove so many people away, what was the eventual nail in the coffin for the sub model which killed the casual want to play even further?
The difficulty of the vet zones.
Face it. What you want cannot work. The center cannot hold.
Isn’t that just your fallacy of why everyone left. You are one user, yet you speak for everyone that quit? A lot of people left because of lack of content, there was no raids at release, there was a time before craglorn. People didn’t leave because of challenging thoughtful content it was just a monotonous unrewarding grind and when you wanted to try a new character it started all over again so people felt trapped in their class. I originally left due to the gross class imbalance of PvP when it was actually just elder staves online, it wasn’t even pve related, but you spoke for me right? Don’t attribute an absolute modifier and an unprovable point to counter an argument you don’t like because it honestly is derailing a constructive post.
Firstly, I think your confusing fallacy and theory.
Secondly, I know there was a time before craglorn, I was there. First thirty days of release. (Switching internet providers ate that account, but yes, I was there.) And part of the problem was the lack of content, part of it was the grind, but the thing that ultimately drove casuals away was the balls out hard nature of the game.
That's the thing. It drove so many players away who came back in droves when the stupid scaling, difficulty, and sub requirement was dropped. So dont give me that. Really. Dont.
As for you, go ahed and speak for yourself. But dont attribute your dark souls zone as the be all end all cure for this games ills, because not only will it not, it'll sell like absolute ass and be a losing investment.
Also. Nothing about this thread is constructive. It's childish demanding, throwing crap at anyone who disagrees. You want your zone. Screw anyone who thinks different because it will make you happy and damn whether or not the idea is popular or profitable. Well, life dont work like that.
Edited by Doctordarkspawn on November 17, 2017 3:50PM2 -
A_G_G_R_O✭✭✭✭
Isn’t that your argument style?Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Drummerx04 wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »
1. People dont like to group quest.
PEOPLE DONT LIKE TO GROUP QUEST.
I dont understand why people just dont *** get this. There's allways gonna be the one guy who wants to sit there and lisen to somethin', one guy who just wants to rush, it's easier to just quest alone and because Craglorn is too hard to solo completely, it failed.
CRAGLORN IS LIVING PROOF OF WHY THIS VISION IS TRASH. So going ahed and trying to retain people by doing this isn't gonna *** work.
2. I dont underestimate how many players are actually true 'end game'. I just dont friggin care.
They should have no bearing on what content is produced outside of annual trial and dungeon content. Sorry. But we've tried it your way, it just isn't profitable or -worth- a damn.
You seem to be against this idea of forced grouping rather strongly, and you'll notice that I was also against it. I simply think the mobs you find in the wild for this proposed DLC should be an actual threat and be scaled up relative to other zones. I suggested vMA as a starting point because the mobs in there hit hard, but they don't have 300k+ health, so low skill players in the zone wouldn't take 5 years to kill an add.
There was a time when I wasn't very good at the game and I wandered into craglorn and was summarily defeated, but that made it more interesting because I knew I had some character building to do. One day I knew I could come back and explore craglorn more freely, and when I finally could handle the zone I got exploring and killing everything I could and it was hella fun. Also note that this was well after Craglorn's initial release and it was and still is my favorite zone.
And finding help on quests in Craglorn was such a problem because of the way the game phases quests. It's not that no one wanted to help me with Crag quests, it's that no one could help me with Crag quests because they already completed them. If ZOS just allowed players to actually group and repeat the quest content with their friends (with perhaps only gold rewarded at the end of the second playthrough of a quest to prevent exploits), I doubt it would have been such a problem.
You also really can't use Craglorn as your example because the majority of the current playerbase did not see it at release and the game is also quite different now with CP, gear power, and widely available build guide videos online. It really is just time for ZOS to try it again with everything they've learned about making content.
I can use it. Because I saw it at release.
I saw the original game at release too. Wanna know what drove me away within the first month of launch? What drove so many people away, what was the eventual nail in the coffin for the sub model which killed the casual want to play even further?
The difficulty of the vet zones.
Face it. What you want cannot work. The center cannot hold.
Isn’t that just your fallacy of why everyone left. You are one user, yet you speak for everyone that quit? A lot of people left because of lack of content, there was no raids at release, there was a time before craglorn. People didn’t leave because of challenging thoughtful content it was just a monotonous unrewarding grind and when you wanted to try a new character it started all over again so people felt trapped in their class. I originally left due to the gross class imbalance of PvP when it was actually just elder staves online, it wasn’t even pve related, but you spoke for me right? Don’t attribute an absolute modifier and an unprovable point to counter an argument you don’t like because it honestly is derailing a constructive post.
Also. Nothing about this thread is constructive. It's childish demanding, throwing crap at anyone who disagrees.
I suggest a DLC that doesn’t sit well with your play style and you haven’t added anything but “NO” to the discussion.
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A_G_G_R_O✭✭✭✭Also a fallacy is when you are making any argument that is non evidence base with little facts and done so incorrectly. If you are submitting to me that it’s a theory well then it’s already self implied it isn’t true or factual since it is a theory.
So where is your evidence and facts of why people quit eso at craglorn time that isn’t “your opinion”1 -
A_G_G_R_O✭✭✭✭I would also like you to contend your counter argument on how the optional DLC will in any way augment or taint your current product of the game as the two will be separate.1
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Drummerx04✭✭✭✭✭
✭I would also like you to contend your counter argument on how the optional DLC will in any way augment or taint your current product of the game as the two will be separate.
Be careful not to get in a shouting match with him or the mods will close the thread.PC/NA - Nightfighters, Raid Leader and Officer
Lilith Arujo - DC sorc tank/dps/healer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, Gryphon Heart, Grand Warlord
Lilith Tortorici - DC templar trials healer
Notable Completions:
vAS (72k), vMoL HM (160k), vAA HM (135k), vHRC HM, vSO HM (141k), vHoF HM (168k), vCR+3(129k), vDSA 45k, vMA 591k
Original Addons:
Lilith's Group Manager
Lilith's Lazy Hacks - Auto Recharge/Repair
Bot Scanner 2000
Lilith's Command History
Maintained Addons:
Kill Counter0 -
A_G_G_R_O✭✭✭✭It won't sell since > 90% of players are casual players who don't have the time or the willingness to gear up, train rotations and understand complex mechanics. They intended to do that with the veteran zones and Craglorn but ended up bringing them to the same difficulty as the normal game content since they were so empty and people didn't want to play there. I think the current formula of non-instanced overland content being easy and accessible to the casual player, and harder instanced group content with two or more levels of difficulty has become standard because it ends up catering to all players.
Would them scaling public dungeons and group delves up to encourage teamwork be a valid compromise whilst leaving the overland relatively untouched.
Edited by A_G_G_R_O on November 17, 2017 4:07PM0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would also like you to contend your counter argument on how the optional DLC will in any way augment or taint your current product of the game as the two will be separate.
Firstly, this is word soup.
Secondly, DLC takes time and money to create.
Even from a buisness perspective, a dark souls questing DLC isn''t a good investment. It's something less than half the playerbase will use, something that will sell poorly and thus must have a horrible budget and manhours, and if your not going to commit that much to it, why do it?
From a standpoint of what groups are profitable, you'll notice raids are released as part of questing content, usually to satisfy the audience there. It's not -done- every update because the audience isn't big enough to dictate that much effort should be put in. Just like the dungeons are usually only put out every cycle. You see the most flair, the most marketing, the most attention drawn to the quest content, because that's what sells, and that's what the people want.
The salient point is, supply, demand. Dark souls itself was budgeted, made, and marketed, to a nieche audience, and profited greatly for it. This game does not have that audience. Ergo, making that content without sufficient audience, makes no sense.
PS: In addition to everything else, the not least of which being how blatently unstable this game is geting performance and crash wise? This is the last thing on the list we should be dedicating time and resources to.Edited by Doctordarkspawn on November 17, 2017 4:16PM3 -
jlboozer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not being elitists, but most players couldn't handle a dlc like that. From the looks of dungeon finder average player dps has to be around 8-10k...probaly even most of the people supporting it in this thread have sub par builds and rotations and also couldn't handle a real challenge. Most can't even complete a DLC dungeon on normal...Edited by jlboozer on November 17, 2017 4:15PM2 -
Zorvan✭✭✭✭It won't sell since > 90% of players are casual players who don't have the time or the willingness to gear up, train rotations and understand complex mechanics. They intended to do that with the veteran zones and Craglorn but ended up bringing them to the same difficulty as the normal game content since they were so empty and people didn't want to play there. I think the current formula of non-instanced overland content being easy and accessible to the casual player, and harder instanced group content with two or more levels of difficulty has become standard because it ends up catering to all players.
Would them scaling public dungeons and group delves up to encourage teamwork be a valid compromise whilst leaving the overland relatively untouched.
No.
Adding a hardmode to those public dungeons/group delves would be fine however.I've been muted since November 2017 because of the whiny crybabies on this forum and the liberal ZOS employees coddling them.2 -
A_G_G_R_O✭✭✭✭What if they added a way to switch the whole zone to a hard mode then? Would be interesting.0
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Zorvan✭✭✭✭What if they added a way to switch the whole zone to a hard mode then? Would be interesting.
Shouldn't be too hard to do so theoretically. They already use instancing to change the world around you in a zone after doing certain quests. The problem is whether it would be worth the added hardware needed vs. how many would actually use it. It would be just like running a separate server, and would most likely be more cost effective to just add a "hardmode" server. Which they're unllikely to do since going with the whole "megaserver" thing.Edited by Zorvan on November 17, 2017 4:46PMI've been muted since November 2017 because of the whiny crybabies on this forum and the liberal ZOS employees coddling them.0 -
A_G_G_R_O✭✭✭✭What if they added a way to switch the whole zone to a hard mode then? Would be interesting.
Shouldn't be too hard to do so theoretically. They already use instancing to change the world around you in a zone after doing certain quests. The problem is whether it would be worth the added hardware needed vs. how many would actually use it. It would be just like running a separate server, and would most likely be more cost effective to just add a "hardmode" server. Which they're unllikely to do since going with the whole "megaserver" thing.
YOOO Hardmode server would be legit maybe even a Hardmode OpenWorld PVP server.
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Zorvan✭✭✭✭What if they added a way to switch the whole zone to a hard mode then? Would be interesting.
Shouldn't be too hard to do so theoretically. They already use instancing to change the world around you in a zone after doing certain quests. The problem is whether it would be worth the added hardware needed vs. how many would actually use it. It would be just like running a separate server, and would most likely be more cost effective to just add a "hardmode" server. Which they're unllikely to do since going with the whole "megaserver" thing.
YOOO Hardmode server would be legit maybe even a Hardmode OpenWorld PVP server.
But again, they'd have to see a value in it to justify the added expense. I doubt it would get much traction from the general playerbase, so they'd likely have to make it an ESO+ only type deal to make it profitable ( such as other games like EQ/EQ2 with special ruleset servers do ). And then, when enough people get bored with it or whatever, they'd end up having to *** off those left when they had to shut it down.I've been muted since November 2017 because of the whiny crybabies on this forum and the liberal ZOS employees coddling them.2 -
luen79rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭This suggestion sounds like original Craglorn, and all vet zones (on release) all over again. We all knew what happened.
I do kind of want more challeging *solo* content.PC/DC/NAserver
V16 sorc - V16 temp - V16 dk - V1 nb - V1 temp - V1 dk0
