The exploit ban is too harsh.

JWKe

I agree a perma ban is too harsh for first time offenders. If anything as you've mentioned already a more appropriate punishment would just be to do an account roll back and issuing them a warning.

Rawkan

No, well deserved.

Loralai_907

As much as I am all for the bans, ZOS really created this environment. There is no standard. There is no clear line in the sand. Yeah, they say don't do this, but the follow through has been horrid. I don't think any two of the same/extremely similar situations have been handled the same. So people who are more interested in doing things the wrong way, I can see how they might think that its not a big deal. Why would they assume it was? If ZOS had just implemented a dam plan ages ago, and followed it, and actually were very clear with community, we may not be having this conversation right now. That being said, I hope that they do have a plan, and I hope that they do continue to take things seriously and share information with the community. I hope that they have a standard, one that is clear and across the board. But I am not blindly assuming that what has been said will be followed through with, and I am not sure that this means anything at all. Trying to not read into it. One time of being hard about a rule does not equal a change in operations.

raj72616a

bots did not get banned.
pvp AP exploit cheater only got temp ban..

supaskrub

Dedicated players or not they did something stupid, they got banned for it. They are accountable for their own actions just as zos is accountable for making an example of them. I and many others knew that there was a glitch but did not take part in it because its simply not worth the risk.

Achievement hunters, Skin hunters, perfected staff hunters or whatever other reason they had to be doing the glitch, you friends let themselves be overcome with greed and a "must have it" cavalier attitude. They took a risk, they got caught out and were punished, they may be dedicated players in your opinion but by that one action alone they have proven that they are cheaters. The punishment fits.

Minyassa

Every single MMO has rules against exploits. People know what exploiting is. People know it's wrong. People do it anyway, on purpose, they get caught, they gambled and lost. What's harsh is people thinking they should be able to get away with doing something wrong and then blaming anyone but themselves when they don't.

starkerealm

Davor wrote: »

Not saying this is right or wrong, but I don't understand some of the comments. Someone said about coding. So Zenimax can't do their job, so they punish people for something they made a mistake on.

As someone who understands programming. No.

Bugs can range from typos to mathematical errors. Combine this the part where commercial software is written by a team. So, if one person has a misplaced comma, it's not that "Zenimax can't do their job," it's that someone, somewhere, made a typo.

Davor wrote: »

So that is like me yelling at my kids for eating the sweats or cookies that I put right in from of them when I could have put them away. Maybe Zenimax should actually do their job and maybe try their product and do quality assurance work before just putting something out.

It's more like you signed a 500 page contract with your kids. Except instead of you writing the whole thing up, you contracted a team of 50 people to do it. Some did their bit and finished in the first week, while some were hired on later, and rewrote earlier parts.

So, now, turns out, on page 463, when it specifies how many cookies the kids can take, it references a formula on 113, that was changed years later, so now it returns a -1. Which, okay, fine, they can't eat the cookies, except on page 211, it refers to -1 as "infinite."

Best of all, each page was written by someone else, and page 211 has been revised six times by four different people.

Software bugs are a lot like that.

Davor wrote: »

Also, how is this a cheat?

Boss doesn't enter combat. You sit there and poke it with a stick from the dark side of the moon until it dies. Yeah, for a hard mode fight where you just sit around pressing one key repeatedly... sounds legit.[/sarcasm]

Davor wrote: »

Again Zenimax put it in the game.

No. I'd get pedantic and point out that ZOS is not the same thing as Zenimax, but, honestly, like I said above, it's not one person putting this in as a deliberate choice. Software is harder to program than baking cookies, as evidenced by the part where you can bake cookies.

Davor wrote: »

It's not like we coded it in the game or used a mod that let us do this. Zenimax did this.

Again, no. It wasn't Zenimax. It was an interaction between multiple factors working together in unanticipated ways.

Davor wrote: »

If Zenimax didn't want this to be done, they shouldn't have made it then.

They didn't. In fact they specifically designed the encounter (and most encounters for that matter) to avoid tactics like this. However, this specific case allowed for a singular exploit in the logic, and suddenly your kids get to snarf down all of those cookies because you didn't keep track of the details of a contract you didn't fully read.

Davor wrote: »

Accidental or not, they didn't fix it so ban people instead?

Because it's not as simple as simply flipping a switch. They need to find the source of the bug. Until then, you're on notice. Don't exploit it, or you will get banned.

Davor wrote: »

This is a video game. Unless you are programming something or using a mod to make it easier, it's not a cheat.

Actually, you might want to go back and read the TOS again.

Davor wrote: »

I am not saying it's right, but then again, if Olympic officials put out preforming enhancing drugs in front of athletes, they shouldn't be banning people for what they did with their actions.

Actually, fun example there.

There's a lot of cases where athletes do use performance enhancing substances when they're technically permissible, or when they know the substances won't show up in tests. And then they moan and cry when they're outed. There are a lot of examples of this.

Technically, in many cases, they were following the rules to the letter, while still violating the spirit of the thing, and they still end up getting slapped with suspensions when the window closes.

Davor wrote: »

I just don't get Zenimax. They don't ban bots, they keep letting them in the game, and this upsets many people, and when you have actual humans play the game, they ban them because of their incompetence.

No, they're banning people for cheating. It's different. They're not banning anyone for incompetence. Fire up the group finder if you don't believe me.

Davor wrote: »

So they don't refund people's time when they can't play their game because of their incompetence and then ban people because of their incompetence. How sad Zenimax. How sad.

No, they ban people for violating the Terms of Service. I know, it's a shock to me as well. But, here we are, and there they go. Maybe selling glitched runs in zone was a mistake? Maybe using exploits to get server first was a mistake? Maybe not reporting the bug when they found it, and instead choosing to waste time slowly grinding down the boss was a mistake? Just a thought.

Davor wrote: »

Geeze, here I was about to get a year subscription.

No. You weren't.

Let's be honest here. You weren't about to buy "a year subscription." The largest subscription block you can buy is 180 days. Now, I realize that this might have confused you, but that's half of a year.

Davor wrote: »

While non of the effects me, Zenimax attitude, is not one I one to support. Going to think long and hard now if I want to come back and support a company like this.

Well, if they're actually getting serious about dealing with cheaters, that'd be a good start.

starkerealm

Denyiir wrote: »

Where is "world's first vAS HM exploit ban" post

Nuked from orbit about 36 hours ago.

Voxicity

I can name probably 10 people who exploited the AP event and not only didnt get banned but STILL KEPT THEIR RANK.

However some people exploit a trial and they get perma banned... I don't even...

ThePrinceOfBargains

Luckily I wasn’t in that group, because I probably would’ve gone along with it myself, not even thinking of it as a malicious action. If I’d have been banned over something so stupid, I would’ve been beyond pissed.

I think it’s funny they have this “zero tolerance” for exploits all of a sudden when they have no problem exploiting their own customers with these crap crate-exclusive apex mounts.

smacx250

I don't do trials. I've never even completed a vet dungeon. So my perspective may be out-of-touch with those that do that kind of stuff. However, I do play ESO - every day. I've done something that was probably an exploit (yes, I solo'd normal Direfrost Keep). Maybe I think about what I've done and how I'd feel if I got a permanent ban because of it. Maybe some of you will feel I deserve a permanent ban for that. Maybe some will say how it is different from what these people did. Sometimes people just have bad judgement and make a mistake. It is easy to let the thrill of something lead your from better judgement. I know how I'd feel inside if I was permabanned over making such a mistake, and it saddens me to think that these players are feeling that (and I truly suspect that many of them are). Is there not a less hurtful way that this might be resolved while still sufficiently providing punishment and disincentive against future exploits?

pod88kk

Just punishment

starkerealm

raj72616a wrote: »

bots did not get banned.
pvp AP exploit cheater only got temp ban..

Bots have been banned. Not, you know, all of them. Problem is that banning bots, by itself, is woefully insufficient. When you're talking about the goldsellers, you need to take out a lot of bots to impact their bottom line. So, ZOS has apparently moved far more energy over into dealing with them when they actually try to move money around. Still, imperfect, and has lots of issues, but there has been some movement, even if it's not nearly enough.

Chrysa1is

You can't solo direfrost keep as you need 2 people to stand on pressure plates to open a gate. Unless your exploit involved finding a way to open the gate without 2 people.

smacx250 wrote: »

I don't do trials. I've never even completed a vet dungeon. So my perspective may be out-of-touch with those that do that kind of stuff. However, I do play ESO - every day. I've done something that was probably an exploit (yes, I solo'd normal Direfrost Keep). Maybe I think about what I've done and how I'd feel if I got a permanent ban because of it. Maybe some of you will feel I deserve a permanent ban for that. Maybe some will say how it is different from what these people did. Sometimes people just have bad judgement and make a mistake. It is easy to let the thrill of something lead your from better judgement. I know how I'd feel inside if I was permabanned over making such a mistake, and it saddens me to think that these players are feeling that (and I truly suspect that many of them are). Is there not a less hurtful way that this might be resolved while still sufficiently providing punishment and disincentive against future exploits?

Chronicburn

I think it was WAY too harsh for most of the banned players.

HOWEVER, I do agree with the perma ban for those who were selling access to the exploit. That crosses the line when you are advertising a glitch and making money off it.

The rest should get a 2-4 week suspension, that would be fair

starkerealm

Chronicburn wrote: »

I think it was WAY too harsh for most of the banned players.

HOWEVER, I do agree with the perma ban for those who were selling access to the exploit. That crosses the line when you are advertising a glitch and making money off it.

The rest should get a 2-4 week suspension, that would be fair

To be fair, some of the players who got banned when they bought the carry may have a pretty good case to appeal. Not, you know, they will get their bans overturned, but they could potentially make the argument that they didn't understand what was going on (depending on their background, and history with the game.)

VaranisArano

smacx250 wrote: »

I don't do trials. I've never even completed a vet dungeon. So my perspective may be out-of-touch with those that do that kind of stuff. However, I do play ESO - every day. I've done something that was probably an exploit (yes, I solo'd normal Direfrost Keep). Maybe I think about what I've done and how I'd feel if I got a permanent ban because of it. Maybe some of you will feel I deserve a permanent ban for that. Maybe some will say how it is different from what these people did. Sometimes people just have bad judgement and make a mistake. It is easy to let the thrill of something lead your from better judgement. I know how I'd feel inside if I was permabanned over making such a mistake, and it saddens me to think that these players are feeling that (and I truly suspect that many of them are). Is there not a less hurtful way that this might be resolved while still sufficiently providing punishment and disincentive against future exploits?

Soloing Direfrost is a pretty bad analogy for this. When you solo Direfrost, you still complete all the content in the dungeon, including all the bosses, just in a slightly different method than usual and with one less player than doing it the "official" method requires. The only thing you are avoiding that is intended is having another player stand on a pressure plate. You still have to kill all the bosses solo.

Compare to the situation of this vet hard mode trial where the exploit allowed players to kill the boss without having to fight the boss. They avoided fighting, which I believe is the entire point of a vet hard mode boss fight in the AS trial. They got their rewards and clear for doing nothing more than standing in the correct spot and using the right skill to kill the boss without a fight.

See the difference? Soloing Direfrost is still completing the dungeon and fighting all the bosses, for all that it is bypassing a mechanic intended to require a 2nd player (and could be just as easily done by porting in a second player to stand on the pressure plate). This exploit was avoiding the entire point of the trial by preventing the boss from fighting back.

smacx250

Chrysa1is wrote: »

You can't solo direfrost keep as you need 2 people to stand on pressure plates to open a gate. Unless your exploit involved finding a way to open the gate without 2 people.

smacx250 wrote: »

I don't do trials. I've never even completed a vet dungeon. So my perspective may be out-of-touch with those that do that kind of stuff. However, I do play ESO - every day. I've done something that was probably an exploit (yes, I solo'd normal Direfrost Keep). Maybe I think about what I've done and how I'd feel if I got a permanent ban because of it. Maybe some of you will feel I deserve a permanent ban for that. Maybe some will say how it is different from what these people did. Sometimes people just have bad judgement and make a mistake. It is easy to let the thrill of something lead your from better judgement. I know how I'd feel inside if I was permabanned over making such a mistake, and it saddens me to think that these players are feeling that (and I truly suspect that many of them are). Is there not a less hurtful way that this might be resolved while still sufficiently providing punishment and disincentive against future exploits?

No, there is another way...

Betsararie

Agreed it is way to harsh. 1 week max would've been appropriate, if ZOS doesn't want people taking advantage of exploits then they should fix the exploits so that they are no longer possible. Not ban people utilizing it.

VaranisArano

Chrysa1is wrote: »

You can't solo direfrost keep as you need 2 people to stand on pressure plates to open a gate. Unless your exploit involved finding a way to open the gate without 2 people.

That's exactly what you can do, if you know the correct method. However, even by bypassing the pressure plate, you still have to fight all of the bosses, so its not as though you somehow don't complete the dungeon.

Waffennacht

How can you not know it's not functioning properly?

Just play the @#$&ing game, stop cheating, no one cares about your world's first embarrassment

starkerealm

smacx250 wrote: »

Chrysa1is wrote: »

You can't solo direfrost keep as you need 2 people to stand on pressure plates to open a gate. Unless your exploit involved finding a way to open the gate without 2 people.

smacx250 wrote: »

I don't do trials. I've never even completed a vet dungeon. So my perspective may be out-of-touch with those that do that kind of stuff. However, I do play ESO - every day. I've done something that was probably an exploit (yes, I solo'd normal Direfrost Keep). Maybe I think about what I've done and how I'd feel if I got a permanent ban because of it. Maybe some of you will feel I deserve a permanent ban for that. Maybe some will say how it is different from what these people did. Sometimes people just have bad judgement and make a mistake. It is easy to let the thrill of something lead your from better judgement. I know how I'd feel inside if I was permabanned over making such a mistake, and it saddens me to think that these players are feeling that (and I truly suspect that many of them are). Is there not a less hurtful way that this might be resolved while still sufficiently providing punishment and disincentive against future exploits?

No, there is another way...

Used to be. Also technically possible with pets, maybe? I forget.

Generally speaking, when it comes to Direfrost "solo" runs, it's acceptable to have a minion for the pressure plates so long as they're not participating.

Chronicburn

Maybe they should focus more on making stuff that works instead of what skills they are going to take away from players or weaken.

I swear after the last few patches there is more of a players vs ZOS attitude building like they are actually attacking our characters and our builds.

No wonder stuff like this happens in this environment it’s like *** for tat ... and ZOS just escalated the violence against players even further.

With their attitude this game is already in the toilet and one hand is on the handle ready to flush

smacx250

VaranisArano wrote: »

Chrysa1is wrote: »

You can't solo direfrost keep as you need 2 people to stand on pressure plates to open a gate. Unless your exploit involved finding a way to open the gate without 2 people.

That's exactly what you can do, if you know the correct method. However, even by bypassing the pressure plate, you still have to fight all of the bosses, so its not as though you somehow don't complete the dungeon.

I'm not trying to argue myself into a ban (please please please don't!) - but it is an exploit. I'm saying I have some empathy for this situation (ban over exploiting buggy mechanics), and wonder if there isn't some other less hurtful resolution than a permaban.

starkerealm

Chronicburn wrote: »

Maybe they should focus more on making stuff that works instead of what skills they are going to take away from players or weaken.

I swear after the last few patches there is more of a players vs ZOS attitude building like they are actually attacking our characters and our builds.

No wonder stuff like this happens in this environment it’s like *** for tat ... and ZOS just escalated the violence against players even further.

With their attitude this game is already in the toilet and one hand is on the handle ready to flush

You don't think this has something to do with the hilarious number of build options that One Tamriel created, leading to unexpected, and hilariously broken, results?

Linaleah

Davor wrote: »

Not saying this is right or wrong, but I don't understand some of the comments. Someone said about coding. So Zenimax can't do their job, so they punish people for something they made a mistake on.

So that is like me yelling at my kids for eating the sweats or cookies that I put right in from of them when I could have put them away. Maybe Zenimax should actually do their job and maybe try their product and do quality assurance work before just putting something out.

Also, how is this a cheat? Again Zenimax put it in the game. It's not like we coded it in the game or used a mod that let us do this. Zenimax did this. If Zenimax didn't want this to be done, they shouldn't have made it then. Accidental or not, they didn't fix it so ban people instead? This is a video game. Unless you are programming something or using a mod to make it easier, it's not a cheat. I am not saying it's right, but then again, if Olympic officials put out preforming enhancing drugs in front of athletes, they shouldn't be banning people for what they did with their actions.

I just don't get Zenimax. They don't ban bots, they keep letting them in the game, and this upsets many people, and when you have actual humans play the game, they ban them because of their incompetence. So they don't refund people's time when they can't play their game because of their incompetence and then ban people because of their incompetence. How sad Zenimax. How sad.

Geeze, here I was about to get a year subscription. While non of the effects me, Zenimax attitude, is not one I one to support. Going to think long and hard now if I want to come back and support a company like this.

bad example.

this would be more like you telling your kids no cookies before dinner, and then not realizing that you didn't latch the drawer with cookies closed. so your kids, KNOWING they are not supposed to have cookies - go into the drawer and eat them anyways. not to mention, these were NOT kids, they knew exactly what they were doing. they KNEW they weren't supposed to and did it anyways

this is like someone stealing someone else's car becasue owner of the car didn't lock it properly. owner of the car made a mistake, yes but the car THIEF? STILL committed a crime and still will be punished for it. why? BECAUSE THEY COMMITTED A CRIME. a crime being easier to commit doesn't excuse it from being a crime and in no way shape or form does it call for leniency.

I hope the bans stay permanent. becasue temp bans are not working, obviously they are at best a slap on a wrist. cheaters need to know that there will be permanent consequences to their cheating.

Vaoh

If anything, I hope ZOS holds true to these bans to make a sort of example of them, and show to players that they’re actually going to take exploits seriously now.

I actually will miss one of the banned players in particular but they shouldn’t have done this. Rip

umagon

I like the iron fist approach when it comes to exploiters. “Murder keeps everyone in line.” In this case the termination of their accounts.

HatchetHaro

If ZOS had been properly enforcing their rule about exploitation and dishing out perma-bans before this incident, I would not be against the perma-banning of these vAS exploiters now.

However, that's not the case here. The vMoL skip exploit has been there for quite a while, yet no real repercussions were given to the exploiters there. The vRoM skip exploit, as far as I know, is still here after many patches and updates, and many people have gotten their skins just from that. All this just fosters a mentality in the community to be bold and break those rules in the ToS because they believe that nothing would be done about it, and track records support that mentality.

The ones selling the runs fully deserve the perma-bans, I agree, but I'm not sure about the rest of them. I mean, I feel that a month-long ban should be more than enough for those exploiters, and a clear warning to the community about exploits should be enough to get people to be more serious about this type of cheating.

I have absolutely no qualms about future exploits being bannable offenses, now that it is clear to the community about the repercussions of such offenses.

generalmyrick

cmetzger93 wrote: »

I think that first time offenders should get a month and times after that need to be permanent perhaps but if it really is a permanent ban for a first time offender that is a stupid decision to put it mildly. Banning people who fund the game will result in the game not lasting long.

game funded by cheaters? zos loved that one... ;-)