Any news about fix to shield stacking sorcs?

ToRelax

Biro123 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

Make it so you can’t stack shields at all, won’t affect PvE because DDs usually won’t run two shields anyway but will remove turtle sorcs from PvP and make it into a more reactive shield play style. Hardened ward when offensive and healing ward when defensive and in need of healing. Simple.

*drops mic*

Oh, #nerfsorcs

Seriously though, I know he pain of almost killing a Sorc just to watch him stack 3 shields and streak away 20 times until their Zerg shows up.

Edit: I play a Sorc too, and also played all classes in PvP. You only need one shield to survive a gank or high burst. If you don’t have your shield up then of course you’ll probably die but that’s the game. I highly doubt making shields unstackable would highly nerf the class. You want a bigger singular shield? Put more points in Bastion. Maybe buff the timing to 8-10 seconds duration to sweeten the deal. Seems pretty simple to me.

Why should players be unable to use their burst heal under a shield? Hardened + Harness is the only problem here.

They could stop harness and hardened from stacking but it won't change anything. When under pressure, spamming the strongest shields is the most effective option, so hardened, hardened, hardened....
The only effect it would have is to finally show that stacking was never actually a problem, but people will still complain about shields..

But to do this fairly, they would have to make it so harness and cloak can't be up together.. And you can't purge or bol with harness up...

Because defensively, to imagine a magica class that is constrained to only one shield is to look at magblade with no cloak (and worse heals), or a light armour magplar with no bol/purge..

To do this and not break the class, a new defensive mechanism will be needed to replace it.

Stacking isn't why a bad player has a hard time killing me, but it is still a problem. It gives me a lot of sustain against magicka builds and allows me to survive a massive burst very easily.
That said, I'd rather have Annulment completely reworked into something that adds to any magicka builds defense, rather than replacing it. Then stacking won't be a problem anyway.

FakeFox

Any news on fixing something that isn't broken?

Lord-Otto

ToRelax wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

Make it so you can’t stack shields at all, won’t affect PvE because DDs usually won’t run two shields anyway but will remove turtle sorcs from PvP and make it into a more reactive shield play style. Hardened ward when offensive and healing ward when defensive and in need of healing. Simple.

*drops mic*

Oh, #nerfsorcs

Seriously though, I know he pain of almost killing a Sorc just to watch him stack 3 shields and streak away 20 times until their Zerg shows up.

Edit: I play a Sorc too, and also played all classes in PvP. You only need one shield to survive a gank or high burst. If you don’t have your shield up then of course you’ll probably die but that’s the game. I highly doubt making shields unstackable would highly nerf the class. You want a bigger singular shield? Put more points in Bastion. Maybe buff the timing to 8-10 seconds duration to sweeten the deal. Seems pretty simple to me.

Why should players be unable to use their burst heal under a shield? Hardened + Harness is the only problem here.

They could stop harness and hardened from stacking but it won't change anything. When under pressure, spamming the strongest shields is the most effective option, so hardened, hardened, hardened....
The only effect it would have is to finally show that stacking was never actually a problem, but people will still complain about shields..

But to do this fairly, they would have to make it so harness and cloak can't be up together.. And you can't purge or bol with harness up...

Because defensively, to imagine a magica class that is constrained to only one shield is to look at magblade with no cloak (and worse heals), or a light armour magplar with no bol/purge..

To do this and not break the class, a new defensive mechanism will be needed to replace it.

Stacking isn't why a bad player has a hard time killing me, but it is still a problem. It gives me a lot of sustain against magicka builds and allows me to survive a massive burst very easily.
That said, I'd rather have Annulment completely reworked into something that adds to any magicka builds defense, rather than replacing it. Then stacking won't be a problem anyway.

Harness is OP. Good players have been agreeing on this for years.

pieratsos

Lord-Otto wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

@pieratsos

"No one uses rune cage"

Well here is a page of sorcs using rune cage.

Its a large change is playstyle, hence why many use clench, but being able to force a meteor/frags isn't nothing.

You mean the DW builds and the other one who literally said "i dont recommend my build to anyone"? Great.
People use clench cause of the reasons i told you last time (no space) and because of reasons i mentioned in a previous post about the benefits of a frag cc which are similar to those of clench. You should really stop pretending to be an expert on sorcs. You showed your lack of knowledge multiple times. Not sure why you keep trying. You called it a big buff. People told you its not. Turns out you were wrong. Get over it.

And thank you for admitting that this just handicaps the already handicapped sorc playstyle. I guess we are all going to run DW rune cage meteor builds now so u can call it a buff.

And thank you for ignoring all the other points. I guess avoiding to answer says a lot.

Btw, im still waiting for those tanking sorc videos. And please dont tell me that u are talking about the videos that other guy posted in that thread with the random 1vX sorc videos.

Objection.
Maybe you lose some pressure with Rune Cage over Clench, but boiii, does it help to have your Curse/Frag/Fury/Meteor combo hit dodgers and blockers!

Which goes back to the point of being forced into a specific playstyle. So now we should all run DW meteor builds to make the most out of rune cage? Very exciting

Again, you do not have the pressure on a sorc. So unless you one shot someone it wont do much. The only people you one shot these days are some squishy builds. You did not have an issue against those in the first place. This is where sorc was good at. So why would i want to drop a necessary ability to slot a cc that helps me do what i was already doing in the first place and lose some pressure in the process which i didnt have much in the first place.

Oh no.
Dodgeroll builds that dodged every Frag used to be nigh unkillable, unless you slowly wrestled them out of resources. Not practicable in group fights.
Permablockers just blocked everything.

The trick is to build pressurs with Force Pulse, and when you got them on the defense, get that guaranteed burst in.

Permablockers fall into the category of tanks. You are not going to one shot them.

Dodge roll builds can be hard to kill but they are by no means unkillable. They can be one shotted. You both play around the advantages of ur classes and try to counter each other. Thats how it should be. Abusing just another ability that ignores mechanics to kill them isnt good. And u can already get that guaranteed burst against rollers anw. No need for rune. Just slot soul assault. Another bs ability that ignores mechanics. Curse, fury, soul assault done.

Force pulse doesnt apply pressure. It can be dodged. Heavy resto/lighting apply pressure.

You can't oneshot tanks and you can't kill them on your own. But when they are targeted by five of us and I can now force them to drop defense for a second with my Meteor coming in, I have a chance to kill them before my hair turns grey.

Dodge rollers have a very distinctive advantage against Frags and Curse won't kill them alone. Now they have to heal up before my burst lands instead of simply dodge-cancelling THEIR burst. It's a game changer. A fair one. You call it out, but then why suggest SA? It's cheesy and since good players just block a few ticks and survive the rest, it's not even worth it, IMO.

You don't build pressure with heavy staff attacks. You die while in animation. Force Pulse can't be dodged (wait for it), as that would run you out of stamina quickly. It all comes down to the right Frag at the right time, and just ask any MagDK how strong a Meteor with Fossilize is. I would know, this is how mine got 90% of all kills.

Keep in mind, I am talking general open world Cyrodiil here, with groups and such. With potatoes but also brilliant players. I can see your personal preference, but you can also trust ME that I have found very good uses for Rune Cage, as mentioned above.

You just literally said you cant one shot tanks on ur own. So you agree with me. That was the point.
A 5v1 scenario? So its good for zerging people down. Ironically thats what i said, its another zerg tool.

Dodge rollers are not unkillable. Period. If you outplay them, u can kill them.
I suggest SA because its doing the exact same job. Just much better. If u like rune cage for that purpose then ull have a blast with SA.

No, u dont die in the animation of a heavy attack. If you get attacked while heavy attacking then just stop heavy attacking and go on defence? You know like you would stop casting force pulse and go on defence?

Force pulse is dodgeable. If ur argument is that it is undodgeable because they will run out of resources while dodging it then every single ability in the game will be undodgeable because of the same reason.

Fossilize meteor is not the same as rune cage meteor of a sorc. DKs have a lot of pressure, fossilize was also a disorient which meant that meteor would also cc u as well and u would also be locked down in the meteor dot with fossilize talons. Abilities synergize different on different classes. Something working on a DK doesnt mean that will work the same way on a sorc and vice versa. And its also been a very long time since i last faced a DK with an actual dangerous fossilize meteor combo. Doesnt really work that great these days.

I never said rune cage doesnt have a good use. I just simply stated that it shines against dodge rollers. Thats wasnt the issue of sorcs. You can absolutely kill those when u outplay them or again just abuse them with soul assault.

And im talking about open world too. Which means playing solo as well and not zerging people down, finding a slot for it becomes a lot harder and ur burst time window becomes a lot smaller making the planning of combos with a bunch of different abilities a lot harder.

Ranger209

Would a shielding cap work? Say it was capped at 15k no matter how many shields you stack you could not go over that amount. There are lots of smaller shields, some from abilities, some from armor sets. I would hate to see these get nerfed into uselessness by not allowing stacking when they really aren't the problem. Shield stacking is used by more than just sorcs.

So in this scenario if shield A is 12k and shield B is 10k then stacking B onto A it becomes a 3k shield, or stacking A on to B, A becomes a 5k shield. My feeling is that the sorcs that do stack generally don't run as high of a magicka pool, but build up spell damage instead to increase burst, and thus their shields only run 7-9k. I can see the need to stack at that point.

I play a lot on my mag sorc and generally do not stack. I run him around 45k to 50k mag and don't really see the need to stack. I can spam 1 and survive fairly well in hairy situations. Shield is 12k+. If someone CC's me at the right time I am toast, but if they give me immunity at the wrong time I can retreat for a while. If 10 guys are burning on me I will be out of mag in about 5-10 seconds if I am lucky enough to keep shields up that long without interruption.

A cap or limit may be a more specific answer to the problem than to just disallow stacking in all situations.

pieratsos

Ranger209 wrote: »

If 10 guys are burning on me I will be out of mag in about 5-10 seconds if I am lucky enough to keep shields up that long without interruption.

Wut? You mean you cant facetank 10 people? You are obviously doing something wrong.

/sarcasm

Biro123

pieratsos wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

If 10 guys are burning on me I will be out of mag in about 5-10 seconds if I am lucky enough to keep shields up that long without interruption.

Wut? You mean you cant facetank 10 people? You are obviously doing something wrong.

/sarcasm

Lol, in that situation, It'd be the red bar that runs out for me, long before the blue..

I can sometimes facetank 4-5 people for exactly the duration of lights champion + a dodgeroll or two.
Nerf shields.. Lol.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Stop whining for nerfs.

Valykc

ToRelax wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

Make it so you can’t stack shields at all, won’t affect PvE because DDs usually won’t run two shields anyway but will remove turtle sorcs from PvP and make it into a more reactive shield play style. Hardened ward when offensive and healing ward when defensive and in need of healing. Simple.

*drops mic*

Oh, #nerfsorcs

Seriously though, I know he pain of almost killing a Sorc just to watch him stack 3 shields and streak away 20 times until their Zerg shows up.

Edit: I play a Sorc too, and also played all classes in PvP. You only need one shield to survive a gank or high burst. If you don’t have your shield up then of course you’ll probably die but that’s the game. I highly doubt making shields unstackable would highly nerf the class. You want a bigger singular shield? Put more points in Bastion. Maybe buff the timing to 8-10 seconds duration to sweeten the deal. Seems pretty simple to me.

Why should players be unable to use their burst heal under a shield? Hardened + Harness is the only problem here.

Uses HoTs under hardened or harness shield and pop healing ward after. There is seriously no need to have 3 shields that stack together. Especially one that heals. I don’t want to gimp magic in anyway but I can PvP fine with one shield, yes I’ll die if I get zerged but unless I have LoS to use then I should die. Having one shield to absorb damage from hitting you main health pool and another doing the same and giving you sustain while also having another heal you to full when it expires is completely ridiculous. I don’t want to sound like a StamBoy cuz I’m not but Stam only has HoTs with the exception of rally. Yes they have more armor resistances but they have no shields unless you literally refer to the one hand and shield skill line which Magicka builds also use. Yes, Stam has higher single target burst but Magicka builds in groups are devastating and equally as defensive. Like I said I’ve played all classes, magic and Stam and I think three shields combining is way over the top. It may use more magic to keep up but then they also have the mobility to get away and regain it all back.

Ranger209

Biro123 wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

If 10 guys are burning on me I will be out of mag in about 5-10 seconds if I am lucky enough to keep shields up that long without interruption.

Wut? You mean you cant facetank 10 people? You are obviously doing something wrong.

/sarcasm

Lol, in that situation, It'd be the red bar that runs out for me, long before the blue..

I can sometimes facetank 4-5 people for exactly the duration of lights champion + a dodgeroll or two.
Nerf shields.. Lol.

It usually is for me too, but sometimes I get lucky and actually run myself dry, then again I probably wasn't full when the smack down started.

Ranger209

Valykc wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

Make it so you can’t stack shields at all, won’t affect PvE because DDs usually won’t run two shields anyway but will remove turtle sorcs from PvP and make it into a more reactive shield play style. Hardened ward when offensive and healing ward when defensive and in need of healing. Simple.

*drops mic*

Oh, #nerfsorcs

Seriously though, I know he pain of almost killing a Sorc just to watch him stack 3 shields and streak away 20 times until their Zerg shows up.

Edit: I play a Sorc too, and also played all classes in PvP. You only need one shield to survive a gank or high burst. If you don’t have your shield up then of course you’ll probably die but that’s the game. I highly doubt making shields unstackable would highly nerf the class. You want a bigger singular shield? Put more points in Bastion. Maybe buff the timing to 8-10 seconds duration to sweeten the deal. Seems pretty simple to me.

Why should players be unable to use their burst heal under a shield? Hardened + Harness is the only problem here.

Uses HoTs under hardened or harness shield and pop healing ward after. There is seriously no need to have 3 shields that stack together. Especially one that heals. I don’t want to gimp magic in anyway but I can PvP fine with one shield, yes I’ll die if I get zerged but unless I have LoS to use then I should die. Having one shield to absorb damage from hitting you main health pool and another doing the same and giving you sustain while also having another heal you to full when it expires is completely ridiculous. I don’t want to sound like a StamBoy cuz I’m not but Stam only has HoTs with the exception of rally. Yes they have more armor resistances but they have no shields unless you literally refer to the one hand and shield skill line which Magicka builds also use. Yes, Stam has higher single target burst but Magicka builds in groups are devastating and equally as defensive. Like I said I’ve played all classes, magic and Stam and I think three shields combining is way over the top. It may use more magic to keep up but then they also have the mobility to get away and regain it all back.

Some shields though (Igneous shield, bone shield, etc.) actually offer support to others. Making it so none stack reduces the support role of these types of shields. Others may only be a shield that is 1 to 3 k, 1 attack eats it up. There is really a very specific couple of shield combinations that can be OP, and to blanket nerf all of them is the wrong way to go. This is why I would think capping shield value or some method along those lines which will reduce the OPness of these specific combinations is more prudent

Ranger209

Again I say this as someone who mag sorcs a lot. Light armor wearers who are not sorc need the annulment line. Generally any thread like this is aimed at sorcs forgetting other classes shield stack much less effectively, and that shields can be used in support roles.

pieratsos

Valykc wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

Make it so you can’t stack shields at all, won’t affect PvE because DDs usually won’t run two shields anyway but will remove turtle sorcs from PvP and make it into a more reactive shield play style. Hardened ward when offensive and healing ward when defensive and in need of healing. Simple.

*drops mic*

Oh, #nerfsorcs

Seriously though, I know he pain of almost killing a Sorc just to watch him stack 3 shields and streak away 20 times until their Zerg shows up.

Edit: I play a Sorc too, and also played all classes in PvP. You only need one shield to survive a gank or high burst. If you don’t have your shield up then of course you’ll probably die but that’s the game. I highly doubt making shields unstackable would highly nerf the class. You want a bigger singular shield? Put more points in Bastion. Maybe buff the timing to 8-10 seconds duration to sweeten the deal. Seems pretty simple to me.

Why should players be unable to use their burst heal under a shield? Hardened + Harness is the only problem here.

I don’t want to sound like a StamBoy cuz I’m not but Stam only has HoTs with the exception of rally. Yes they have more armor resistances but they have no shields unless you literally refer to the one hand and shield skill line which Magicka builds also use.

Every class and playstyle has different mechanics for defense. Which mechanic is the best or the worst is a different discussion but arguing that stamina builds dont have shields doesnt make much sense. They dont have shields because they have other ways to defend. The Champion system with the stupid cost reductions all over the place also throws the balance out of the window but again thats a different discussion as well.

Lord-Otto

@pieratsos

Zerging down a tank is the only way to kill him. It's not that you can't oneshot them, a good tank won't die at all. He won't kill you neither. In open field, you can walk away and don't bother, but when keeps and camps and flags are involved, you have to kill them sometimes. And you do that by kolling everything around him and then focussing him, when you got the number advantage. And Rune Cage does lower the required numbers needed for that advantage.

Dodgerollers are not unkillable if they stand and fight. But they can dodge when pressured and retreat to the group, just to come back when they're out of danger. With Rune Cage, I can deny that now and then, thinning the enemies' ranks.

You can't dodge every Pulse, or you will miss the stamina for the Fragdodge. Sure, in emergencies, dodging Pulse is needed, but it comes at a cost higher than what I invested. Dodging a Frag, probably even while doing a Dawnbreaker, is actually an advantage for the dodger, as it renders my four seconds of preparation nearly useless, save for a lousy Curse tick. There are more things to be considered, but I guess you get the idea.

I would argue that unblockable Meteor is stronger on sorc than DK. As you said, DKs have pressure, DoTs. Meteor is a delayed burst, so it doesn't really fit. Only thanks to Fossilize was it so powerful. Now, the instant fire Leap is much better when you've pressured the enemy to low health. Sorcs, however, are DESIGNED for delayed burst. Meteor fits right in, if it doesn't get blocked.

Fossilize was intended to give CC immunity, no double stun from Fossilize+Meteor. It just happened that this worked and sometimes it didn't. Simply bugged and I considered the unbugged application.
Soul Assault, in my experience, only works against potatoes or in zergs. Our experiences might differ because of playing areas. But I very much prefer Rune Cage over Soul Assault to deal with dodge. I don't know what to tell you. That's just how I have experienced it personally.

ToRelax

Valykc wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

Make it so you can’t stack shields at all, won’t affect PvE because DDs usually won’t run two shields anyway but will remove turtle sorcs from PvP and make it into a more reactive shield play style. Hardened ward when offensive and healing ward when defensive and in need of healing. Simple.

*drops mic*

Oh, #nerfsorcs

Seriously though, I know he pain of almost killing a Sorc just to watch him stack 3 shields and streak away 20 times until their Zerg shows up.

Edit: I play a Sorc too, and also played all classes in PvP. You only need one shield to survive a gank or high burst. If you don’t have your shield up then of course you’ll probably die but that’s the game. I highly doubt making shields unstackable would highly nerf the class. You want a bigger singular shield? Put more points in Bastion. Maybe buff the timing to 8-10 seconds duration to sweeten the deal. Seems pretty simple to me.

Why should players be unable to use their burst heal under a shield? Hardened + Harness is the only problem here.

Uses HoTs under hardened or harness shield and pop healing ward after. There is seriously no need to have 3 shields that stack together. Especially one that heals. I don’t want to gimp magic in anyway but I can PvP fine with one shield, yes I’ll die if I get zerged but unless I have LoS to use then I should die. Having one shield to absorb damage from hitting you main health pool and another doing the same and giving you sustain while also having another heal you to full when it expires is completely ridiculous. I don’t want to sound like a StamBoy cuz I’m not but Stam only has HoTs with the exception of rally. Yes they have more armor resistances but they have no shields unless you literally refer to the one hand and shield skill line which Magicka builds also use. Yes, Stam has higher single target burst but Magicka builds in groups are devastating and equally as defensive. Like I said I’ve played all classes, magic and Stam and I think three shields combining is way over the top. It may use more magic to keep up but then they also have the mobility to get away and regain it all back.

What are you even trying to tell me? I asked quite a simple question I think. I don't have to proove that I am still a good player with a gimped build just to make a point, do I?

CTSCold

The real problem with it in my eyes isn't the fact that the shields stack, no one cares about the guy/girl who survives if they can't kill anything. It's that a sorc can line up burst due to timed abilities and then launch into a full offensive rotation while being fully shielded for the next 6 seconds. There's no trade off for a sorc when they go on the offensive because they can just triple stack and not have to worry about the damage they will take on the offensive, they will even get a burst heal when their bottom shield wears off.

Designing a class for delayed burst and then forcing them to rely on shields which will protect them throughout the offensive rotation was a recipe for disaster. Constant sustained dmg is the only way to beat them because even running them out of stam usually just leads to a streak x2 -> reset. It's not a sorc's fault they shield stack, as many have said it's their only defence. It's a class design issue that leads to problems. Rework sorc skills to not be delayed burst and guess what, you have a trade off for being offensive. Which is what really matters.

Or just rework the whole resource system so that weap/spell dmg is the only thing that affects dmg and let the max resource number dictate shield size and usage. Doing that would solve a lot of the 'can't be killed but can kill' builds on both the stam and mag side, as well as allow for hybrids.

Killset

Minno wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Vesper_BR wrote: »

I'm not posting here because I'm losing to sorcs... I'm doing it because even I'm killing them, they are unbalanced, as permablockers

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Vesper_BR wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Vesper_BR wrote: »

And by the one that says that maximum magica doesn't benefit mag sorcs as spell damage... Pls bro go and study the eso mechanics

Max mag benefits all your damage AND your shields.... Only spell damage doesn't benefits you in class shields...

Remember that formula?
(Sd*10,05)+ (max mag)??

Don't try to sound like we don't know how it works...


*Facepalm...

Isn't it ironic that someone who doesn't even know that armor mitigation isn't applied to shields wants to lecture others...

Vesper_BR wrote: »

And to remember... Shields don't take more damage when target have it's armour broken, don't take more damage from crits... It's more defensive power than needed... And double or triple it... Now it's ridiculous...

I understand that sorcs depend on shields to survive... But the problem is the stacking of it and the low damage it receives overall...

What is wrong in what I said?

Sorcs doesn't have downsides when debuffed, shields don't take more or less damage based on resistances, that's the problems, because even using light armour, they make crit builds and penetration builds worthless, even when they have the most penetration against all non shielded oponents, by having light armour passives and staff and set passives...
And let us think a little more...

So... To have more defenses, sustain and damage what they need?

ONLY MAX MAGICA

I don't see permablockers having sustain by stacking max health, or more damage...
Neither mag NBS or Stam/mag dks...


Keep being cheese baby...
I know you like it, like wrobel...

Save your stupid attempts to insult and brighten up.

Shields don't take resistance into account. You don't have to debuff them. This is not a disadvantage for you. Get that into your head.

You save CP, set boni, munuds stunes on penetration or skill slots, resources and GCDs on applying debuffs. Simply because it is not necessary.

You can twist and turn how you like it. But instead of "crit and pen" you simply can invest all in max resources and raw spell/wpn dmg and still be effective against shields. Hell, there are even sets and enchants that ignore shields entirely.

But god forbid crit + pen isn't best at every giving opponent.

And please anlighten me how max magicka impacts magicka regeneration.

Permablocking functions on whole different mechanics. Through a mix of HA and class passives, broken ways to calculate block costs and Ultimates.

In this game everything isn't the same. Yet.

Keep being ignorant baby...
I know you like it, like every crybaby.

So what you say is that everybody should change theirs builds to be in equal to sorcs?

Alright...
You are telling me that even penetration, crits and helping debuffs, components of offensive part of every build should be ignored? And stacked to high values, more than any heal...

At the same time sorcs can keep high crit and high pen... Alright, alright... I give up...

I'm crying okay... I'm a cry baby...

Let me Save my time and stupid attempts to insult to brighten and look for hypocrites....

I didn't see you kill many shield stacking sorcs. I did see you struggle as DKs don't really have high spamable burst like sorc's/nbs. But what sorcs/nbs don't have is the ability to block or Regen resorces outside of Regen.

In the end, it comes down to CC attempts and draining a sorcs stamina. In your videos, I saw the CC early in nearly every fight. Combined with no points in shattering blows means your real opener attacks are predictable, easily negated by a mobile Sorc whose playing on your lack of range to their advantage.

Your mobilty is correct. Mist form into talons/take flight. But dual snb DK, in my opinion is outdated in this mobilty meta without a way to use snare/cost poisons from range.

New players or not, if a Sorc is beating you in that build, it's because they outplayed you. Mobility>dmg.

You can’t run Sorc (or any magic class) out of stamina anymore. I play both magic and stamina and I never run out of stam anymore on my magic toons with CP the way it is. This hasn’t been a problem for magic users in like forever.

You still should be able to. Break free, even with 16% reduction is still over 4k per cast. And generally most mag builds run 14k stam. so 3 cc attempts means death.

That's why I say mobilty> most stats. The ability to reset fights offsets these weaknesses entirely. Why else is most of cyro a NB? Cloak+shade+major expedition (even sorc streak+sprint) is superior to purge spam/Ultimate jumping.

Standing in one place sucks. And it sucks even more if you target can move away if they run out of resources to Regen.

19% break free reduction. And you conveniently ignored stam regen and pots to prove your point. If you are dead after 3 cc breaks on your Mag classes I’m not sure what to tell you. Or maybe you are just shaping facts to support your narrative. I see that a lot around here.

Not everyone plays CP campaigns.

And not everyone runs tri pots. Some classes run speed pots, which the cheapest one only gives a hot.

And how much Regen does a mag build actually run? I run around 1k with 14000 Stam. But sorcs? Probably 600 Stam Regen and the same Stam level. Either way that's 600 Stam every 2 seconds, and the Sorc isn't going to stand around while they get hit with CC attempts.

They are going to kite you till their range becomes an advantage. And all the videos I've seen are showing double snb bars on a non-mobility class; the sorcs straight up played against their disadvantage. And even if they got close, there was no attempt to take advantage of the 6 second duration or layer dots to help you save resources for burst attempts.

If you do not want to run tri pots then that is your decision. I stand by my statement, if your dying on Mag classes after 3 CC breaks the you have big issues.

Same goes for not being able to kill sorcs not using cc burst combos.

That’s how you kill everything in this game. What does that have to do with you saying Mag classes run out of stam and are dead after 3 cc breaks. That’s simply not true.

pieratsos

@Lord-Otto

Exactly you aint going to kill a tank. You agree with me. Not sure why you keep arguing. Rune cage or not you aint killing them unless you zerg them. Yes dodge rollers are not unkillable if they stay and fight. Thats what im talking about, an actual fight.

And even in the case of them trying to get away soul assault is still better. It snares them to [snip] does more dmg, forces them to block and drains almost their whole stamina making them unable to run away. There is no ability in the entire game with a bigger impact against a specific playstyle than soul assault against dodge rollers. Its literally almost a guaranteed sentence for them.

Again, every single ability in the game is undodgeable with ur own definition. If you can dodge it then its dodgeable, simple as that. And your idea of force pulse building pressure on them applies only if they intentionally dodge roll ur force pulse. They dont. They dodge roll a lot anw whether u cast force pulse whether u dont. They are not afraid of ur force pulse. They are afraid of getting hit by a frag. So why waste magicka on force when u can just heavy attack them and actually do dmg.

Im sorry but ur arguments doesnt even make sense. I am talking about fights against tanks and dodge rollers and u are talking about zerging people down and people that dont want to fight.

I know how the classes are designed but you literally missed the point again.
It absolutely fits. Lol. It means they have both pressure and burst. Thats the whole [snip] point. You wear them down and finish them with that combo.

As far as i know, you can cc someone that is disoriented unless they cc break the disorient. Fossilize gave immunity if u break it. But meteor was hitting you before u break it so u were getting cced again by the meteor cause fossilize was a disorient and not hard cc. And fossilize applies a root and they can also root you with talons as well inside that ridiculous meteor dot. Thats what made that combo so deadly. Fossilize, meteor on a DK with buffs to flame dmg was such a good combo because the synergy between the abilities and the class was ridiculous. There is no such synergy on a sorc.

Sorcs are designed around burst. Exactly, you already have that. You can already burst those damn dodge roll builds when you outplay them anw. Again rune cage has its use. It can be deadly against dodge roll builds. But at what cost.


[Edited to remove profanity]

Beardimus

If Sorc haters put as much effort Into L2P as they did posting here they wouldn't have a problem countering em.... Damn

Actually_Goku

I know it wasn't you that originally suggest this, but are you serious? Most good players use dampen magicka anyway

Instead of whining about how strong shields are, why don't people put more CP into mighty or ask for a buff in that particular CP perk/constellation? Or for example, if Hardened Ward is casted, any other damage shield used just applies minor physical and spell resistances for the duration instead?

We could think of so many fair solutions (to something I don't consider a problem anyway, and I'm not a Sorc) but one bad thing about this community is they'd rather whine for nerfs to shields, rather than look at ways they can either get through them better themselves, or come up with a give-take solution. It's always just "nerf this".

I play a Magicka DK, easily the least bursty magicka class, and generally speaking, sorcs get rekt 1v1. The beauty of ESO's combat system is that you have to time key attacks at the right moment. You can't just spam your execute and win, which is what so many people seemingly want. Not to mention I don't even have an execute

Lord-Otto

Pier, read what I wrote again. My last post. I explained my thoughts very detailed. If you don't understand them there, I cannot say anything here to make it clear to you. I'll just see my self out of this time waste.

pieratsos

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Pier, read what I wrote again. My last post. I explained my thoughts very detailed. If you don't understand them there, I cannot say anything here to make it clear to you. I'll just see my self out of this time waste.

I perfectly understand what you wrote. You are the one who doesnt understand and needs to read again.

Disorient and stun are not the same. You can get stunned while u are disoriented if you dont break the disorient. If you break fossilize you will get immunity and the meteor wont cc you again. But if you time fossilize right and the meteor hits you before you break fossilize then you will get stunned by the meteor as well because meteor is a hard cc and not a soft cc.

And even when u dont get stunned by the meteor its still a better combo because of the root.
The root is also applied to you even after you cc break. And the talons as well keeping you in a disgustingly powerful dot for even longer. Back then magicka builds didnt have such stamina as they do now. Especially sorcs. If you didnt have stamina to roll out of the root meant that you are most likely dead because the meteor dot is ridiculous. And DKs also have buffs to flame dmg and they were all dark elves. The synergy of the whole combo was ridiculous.

Im not sure how much more simple i can make it for you to understand.

As far as soul assault is concerned it isnt really a debate. The ability has only one counter and that counter does more harm than good on dodge roll builds. Soul assault hits for around 10k through block snares people to [snip] and drains more than half of their stamina. I didnt make this numbers up. They are actual numbers from numerous threads about soul assault and i use the ability as well. Curse, fury soul assault gets you a kill. And if it doesnt then rune cage meteor will most definitely not get you a kill either.

And thats just a debate of how good rune cage is. Not even a debate of what you give up for it.

[Edited to remove profanity]

ToRelax

Actually_Goku wrote: »

I know it wasn't you that originally suggest this, but are you serious? Most good players use dampen magicka anyway

Instead of whining about how strong shields are, why don't people put more CP into mighty or ask for a buff in that particular CP perk/constellation? Or for example, if Hardened Ward is casted, any other damage shield used just applies minor physical and spell resistances for the duration instead?

We could think of so many fair solutions (to something I don't consider a problem anyway, and I'm not a Sorc) but one bad thing about this community is they'd rather whine for nerfs to shields, rather than look at ways they can either get through them better themselves, or come up with a give-take solution. It's always just "nerf this".

I play a Magicka DK, easily the least bursty magicka class, and generally speaking, sorcs get rekt 1v1. The beauty of ESO's combat system is that you have to time key attacks at the right moment. You can't just spam your execute and win, which is what so many people seemingly want. Not to mention I don't even have an execute

Dampen makes sense when you are looking for a single shield or something to protect a Healing Ward. Combining it with Hardened Ward though, would just be a waste of magicka.

Vaoh

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I killed a group with a mixture of all classes including 3 sorcs couple nights ago. There was one survivor, Mag Sorc, complete potato, didn't have a CC, only attack was lightning heavy but managed to survive all of my combo's whilst even laying on the ground not even CC breaking as it was out of Stam pretty fast! Who knows what it was wearing but the max magic must have been insane. Couldn't be killed, I actually gave up and wanted to respawn somewhere else, so I stopped fighting and saw what kinda damage it could do. Curse was strong, Lightning heavy was weak but the thing that killed me was destro ult (obviously stood in it on purpose) and then the easily excitable execute.

I don't get any of these problems in no CP, I don't even want to imagine a mag sorc in the next CP increase. 700+CP, Wizards Riposte, 70k max Magicka? What's that like 40k of replenishable shields?

ZOS ALWAYS nerf and buff the wrong things. Streak was fine, Curse was fine, Frags were fine. The two things that I find overpowered on Sorc is the zero effort execute and passive that goes along with it and the stacking of 3 different shields.

You'd think that if anything ever in this game needed the Minor/Major treatment it would be damage shields. It would surely be easier to balance.

Well now all of those things have been nerfed and Mag Sorcs are pretty horrible without their shieldstack crutch for PvP. The damage spike overtime has only encouraged it. Anyways, very few Mag Sorcs have ever given me trouble outside of one of those double pet builds that are made to be OP in 1v1s.

At this point there is no way to possibly balance PvP for the better. It's a CP issue, and how CP power creep has lead to the nerfing of so much from all classes.

Feanor

@Vaoh

Correct. It becomes really obvious if you play noCP. Take away all the mitigation the CP system offers, the extra resource pools, and bastion, and shields are really on the weak side that could need a buff.

Vaoh

Feanor wrote: »

@Vaoh

Correct. It becomes really obvious if you play non-CP. Take away all the mitigation the CP system offers, the extra resource pools, and bastion, and shields are really on the weak side that could need a buff.

Yep, but for obvious reason shields cannot be buffed at all based on CP PvP. That power creep has led to everything being imbalanced without CP, yet with CP certain things are still OP and there are so many other issues..... also never-ending load screens and lag -_- This is all kinda why I never talk about PvP anymore and the PvP population is so low.

Maulkin

Harness on its own is fine. Try surviving on Harness and Heal Ward as you only shields and then tell me it’s too strong.

The Harness + Hardened stack is extremely strong and completely potato-proof. On a Magicka build it’s nigh on impossible to solo kill a potato Sorc stacking them. If they are a good player too, then forget about it, you are wasting your time.

My proposition for some time has been something quite radical, but I say remove Hardened Ward altogether and give us another, new skill. Shake up the meta a little. Then add to the Daedric Protection passive something along these lines:
“Reduces the cost of Damage Shields by [8/15] %. With pets active, 50% of the final shield strength is also applied to your pets”

That way Sorc is still the most efficient Ward spammer but can only have Dampen/Harness + Heal Ward. You would then have a choice to make between Dampen and Harness and even with 15% reduced costs you won’t hit the total shield size or Magicka efficiency that you get with the current stack against other Magicka builds.

ToRelax

Maulkin wrote: »

Harness on its own is fine. Try surviving on Harness and Heal Ward as you only shields and then tell me it’s too strong.

The Harness + Hardened stack is extremely strong and completely potato-proof. On a Magicka build it’s nigh on impossible to solo kill a potato Sorc stacking them. If they are a good player too, then forget about it, you are wasting your time.

My proposition for some time has been something quite radical, but I say remove Hardened Ward altogether and give us another, new skill. Shake up the meta a little. Then add to the Daedric Protection passive something along these lines:
“Reduces the cost of Damage Shields by [8/15] %. With pets active, 50% of the final shield strength is also applied to your pets”

That way Sorc is still the most efficient Ward spammer but can only have Dampen/Harness + Heal Ward. You would then have a choice to make between Dampen and Harness and even with 15% reduced costs you won’t hit the total shield size or Magicka efficiency that you get with the current stack against other Magicka builds.

I don't like using shields, but I need to be able to mitigate/avoid enough damage and heal through the rest otherwise. What you are suggesting sounds like it would just lead to being forced to use Annulment instead of Hardened Ward.
What I would really want is changing Surge: Remove the cooldown, make the heal based on damage done again and balance it some other way.

Maulkin

ToRelax wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Harness on its own is fine. Try surviving on Harness and Heal Ward as you only shields and then tell me it’s too strong.

The Harness + Hardened stack is extremely strong and completely potato-proof. On a Magicka build it’s nigh on impossible to solo kill a potato Sorc stacking them. If they are a good player too, then forget about it, you are wasting your time.

My proposition for some time has been something quite radical, but I say remove Hardened Ward altogether and give us another, new skill. Shake up the meta a little. Then add to the Daedric Protection passive something along these lines:
“Reduces the cost of Damage Shields by [8/15] %. With pets active, 50% of the final shield strength is also applied to your pets”

That way Sorc is still the most efficient Ward spammer but can only have Dampen/Harness + Heal Ward. You would then have a choice to make between Dampen and Harness and even with 15% reduced costs you won’t hit the total shield size or Magicka efficiency that you get with the current stack against other Magicka builds.

I don't like using shields, but I need to be able to mitigate/avoid enough damage and heal through the rest otherwise. What you are suggesting sounds like it would just lead to being forced to use Annulment instead of Hardened Ward.
What I would really want is changing Surge: Remove the cooldown, make the heal based on damage done again and balance it some other way.

Yeah, but you wouldn't be able to use both. The difference for me is quite big. It would very much be "toning down" shields, which is a common demand of many players including Sorcs.

I've made the conscious choice to not run Annulment, because like I said I find the stack pretty OP and potato-proof. When I go against Sorcs I have 11k Hardened against a 20k stack that returns magicka. They can survive any burst combo and sit at near full magicka as a result. 11k is fully burstable with Curse, Frags and Ultie. If I'm against more than 1 half-decent player I usually have to LOS or gtfo, because 1 shield alone does not buy you a big enough window to put pressure, so you are caught in an endless cycle of refreshing Hardened.

Playing without shields altogether would be very interesting and a rather big change in the meta, but I don't expect ZOS to be able to pull that off easily. I would happily settle for either making shields not stack or my suggestion of removing Hardened as step towards the right direction.

Biro123

I think a big step would be to either make the pets unkillable (thinking like the wardens netch and shadowrend) or a LOT tougher..

Then sorc would have access to reliable heals without also needing shields to keep the healing pet alive. Can then lose staking or even hardened completely. heavy armour and blocking sorc builds would be feasible and there would be much more build diversity.