Any news about fix to shield stacking sorcs?

Karmanorway

Morgul667 wrote: »

Limit shield stacking to 2

I agree, and buff light armor resistance to same as heavy, + add all heavy and light armor bonuses, or are magsorc just too op because ppl cant oneshot them?

Chilly-McFreeze

Maulkin wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Harness on its own is fine. Try surviving on Harness and Heal Ward as you only shields and then tell me it’s too strong.

The Harness + Hardened stack is extremely strong and completely potato-proof. On a Magicka build it’s nigh on impossible to solo kill a potato Sorc stacking them. If they are a good player too, then forget about it, you are wasting your time.

My proposition for some time has been something quite radical, but I say remove Hardened Ward altogether and give us another, new skill. Shake up the meta a little. Then add to the Daedric Protection passive something along these lines:
“Reduces the cost of Damage Shields by [8/15] %. With pets active, 50% of the final shield strength is also applied to your pets”

That way Sorc is still the most efficient Ward spammer but can only have Dampen/Harness + Heal Ward. You would then have a choice to make between Dampen and Harness and even with 15% reduced costs you won’t hit the total shield size or Magicka efficiency that you get with the current stack against other Magicka builds.

I don't like using shields, but I need to be able to mitigate/avoid enough damage and heal through the rest otherwise. What you are suggesting sounds like it would just lead to being forced to use Annulment instead of Hardened Ward.
What I would really want is changing Surge: Remove the cooldown, make the heal based on damage done again and balance it some other way.

Yeah, but you wouldn't be able to use both. The difference for me is quite big. It would very much be "toning down" shields, which is a common demand of many players including Sorcs.

I've made the conscious choice to not run Annulment, because like I said I find the stack pretty OP and potato-proof. When I go against Sorcs I have 11k Hardened against a 20k stack that returns magicka. They can survive any burst combo and sit at near full magicka as a result. 11k is fully burstable with Curse, Frags and Ultie. If I'm against more than 1 half-decent player I usually have to LOS or gtfo, because 1 shield alone does not buy you a big enough window to put pressure, so you are caught in an endless cycle of refreshing Hardened.

Playing without shields altogether would be very interesting and a rather big change in the meta, but I don't expect ZOS to be able to pull that off easily. I would happily settle for either making shields not stack or my suggestion of removing Hardened as step towards the right direction.

I assumed that more peopel stack healing ward with either hardened or harness. Triplestacking is tideos and you're halfway through your first timer.

But I don't really get your argument from this post. You say you are having troubles playing against someone more than half-decend if you're playing with one shield only " because 1 shield alone does not buy you a big enough window to put pressure, so you are caught in an endless cycle of refreshing Hardened." That is with an 11k hardened ward. And your proposal is to delete that stronger ward and force people into the even smaller ward?

Problems I see here is that you would be forced even more to spam wards or run off against decend players when your ward is smaller. And I think biggest issue in stacking is the magicka return of harness. But obviously you see that somewhat similar ("They can survive any burst combo and sit at near full magicka as a result").

And if you rob sorcs of their class defense skill, with what would you replace it? If anything I would tone down the LA shield or, like you said, don't allow hardened and harness together.

CyrusArya

Breaking news: scientists discover new technique for countering sorcs:

Step 1.) Learn 2 Play
Step 2.) Get Good

If you are complaining about sorcs in clockwork city, you are a terrible player. End of story. I don’t know a single respectable player that struggles with this class in particular independent of the player they are fighting behind the class.

NinchiTV

Magsorc isn't unbeatable..

Make them use their stam, put CP into dmg + to shields, use poisons, keep constant pressure. And if youre REALLY bad and salty feel free to be a *** and use shield breaker.

Maulkin

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

I assumed that more peopel stack healing ward with either hardened or harness. Triplestacking is tideos and you're halfway through your first timer.

It's only rarely triple stacking. If you are simply stacking Hardened on Harness you get such big shields people rarely touch your health, so you don't need to use Healing Ward that much which is hugely inefficient. Even at 50% HP if you have a Hardened + Harness stack, you are being very magicka efficient and things like Power Surge crits, Dark Magic passive and HP regen are ticking your health up. Because Healing Ward is very expensive and a [snip] heal unless you are at low health. And it doesn't return 1.5k magicka per absorb like Harness does.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

But I don't really get your argument from this post. You say you are having troubles playing against someone more than half-decend if you're playing with one shield only " because 1 shield alone does not buy you a big enough window to put pressure, so you are caught in an endless cycle of refreshing Hardened." That is with an 11k hardened ward. And your proposal is to delete that stronger ward and force people into the even smaller ward?

You're wrong off the bat. That's not what I said, you're misquoting me or you read wrong. I said: "If I'm against more than 1 half-decent player I usually have to LOS or gtfo". More than 1 is two or more, not just one player.

And my point is that is exactly right and how it should be. It's not a complain. The +20k stack buys you windows of damage even when tanking two or more players. You shouldn't be tanking two decent players players with shields. You should be looking to LOS and pick them off 1 by 1. Otherwise you are effectively a tank with burst damage and windows to apply it.

And for the reference, my proposal was to reduce the cost of Annulment and morphs by 15% via a passive. With Harness or Dampen the only choice, Sorcs will very likely spec into the bigger Dampen shield. Which would have approx same cost as current Hardened Ward, yet bigger shield size. So no, they wouldn't be forced into a smaller ward. They would be forced into a bigger ward. Effectively, I proposed a marginally bigger shield for the same cost as current Hardened, in exchange for losing the ability to double stack.

SirMewser

My suggestion:

• Remove conjured ward.
• Replace conjured ward with Unstable Clannfear (without active).
• Unstable Clannfear 1st morphs into Empowering Clannfear providing the original shield to the sorc and all pets while all allies get minor intellect.
• Unstable Clannfear 2nd morphs into Stabilizing Clannfear providing the original heal to the sorc and pet while all allies get minor endurance.
• Unstable Familiar can get another new morph.

Harsh change but I think it would work well with some adjustments to numbers.

Betsararie

SirMewser wrote: »

My suggestion:

• Remove conjured ward.
• Replace conjured ward with Unstable Clannfear (without active).
• Unstable Clannfear 1st morphs into Empowering Clannfear providing the original shield to the sorc and all pets while all allies get minor intellect.
• Unstable Clannfear 2nd morphs into Stabilizing Clannfear providing the original heal to the sorc and pet while all allies get minor endurance.
• Unstable Familiar can get another new morph.

Harsh change but I think it would work well with some adjustments to numbers.

You're joking, right? You have to be joking, because this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. Just does not make sense in any way.

SirMewser

Blanco wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

My suggestion:

• Remove conjured ward.
• Replace conjured ward with Unstable Clannfear (without active).
• Unstable Clannfear 1st morphs into Empowering Clannfear providing the original shield to the sorc and all pets while all allies get minor intellect.
• Unstable Clannfear 2nd morphs into Stabilizing Clannfear providing the original heal to the sorc and pet while all allies get minor endurance.
• Unstable Familiar can get another new morph.

Harsh change but I think it would work well with some adjustments to numbers.

You're joking, right? You have to be joking, because this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. Just does not make sense in any way.

Oh don't turn everything into being about you.
I call alarmist sorc vilification.

No joke at all, don't like it?
Use annulment +morphs.
Use healing ward.

Want to stack or just have a stronger ward?
Will cost you keeping a pet up and another slot on backbar.

If you are a good player then this will not impact you.
How does this affect you unfairly, because you can't stack as easily?
Please explain or accept that the game isn't all about you.

Joy_Division

If you're still complaining about Sorcs this patch, you either need to practice or haven't played very much lately and just like to come on these forums and whine about stuff from 3 or 4 patches ago..

Beardimus

Joy_Division wrote: »

If you're still complaining about Sorcs this patch, you either need to practice or haven't played very much lately and just like to come on these forums and whine about stuff from 3 or 4 patches ago..

Spot on Joy, honestly these threads are getting dull. I'm just gunna start reporting them all for tedium.

For every poster on this thread that says they are OP, roll one, go to Cyro, and see how long you can triple stack shields for and remain on offence.

Sorcs have all the counter in the world, the only answer I'm.giving these threads now is L2P (or L2CS -counter Sorc)

Lord-Otto

pieratsos wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Pier, read what I wrote again. My last post. I explained my thoughts very detailed. If you don't understand them there, I cannot say anything here to make it clear to you. I'll just see my self out of this time waste.

I perfectly understand what you wrote. You are the one who doesnt understand and needs to read again.

Disorient and stun are not the same. You can get stunned while u are disoriented if you dont break the disorient. If you break fossilize you will get immunity and the meteor wont cc you again. But if you time fossilize right and the meteor hits you before you break fossilize then you will get stunned by the meteor as well because meteor is a hard cc and not a soft cc.

And even when u dont get stunned by the meteor its still a better combo because of the root.
The root is also applied to you even after you cc break. And the talons as well keeping you in a disgustingly powerful dot for even longer. Back then magicka builds didnt have such stamina as they do now. Especially sorcs. If you didnt have stamina to roll out of the root meant that you are most likely dead because the meteor dot is ridiculous. And DKs also have buffs to flame dmg and they were all dark elves. The synergy of the whole combo was ridiculous.

Im not sure how much more simple i can make it for you to understand.

As far as soul assault is concerned it isnt really a debate. The ability has only one counter and that counter does more harm than good on dodge roll builds. Soul assault hits for around 10k through block snares people to [snip] and drains more than half of their stamina. I didnt make this numbers up. They are actual numbers from numerous threads about soul assault and i use the ability as well. Curse, fury soul assault gets you a kill. And if it doesnt then rune cage meteor will most definitely not get you a kill either.

And thats just a debate of how good rune cage is. Not even a debate of what you give up for it.

I don't care about Fossilize stun/disorient/root/banish from this plane of existence.

I detailed how Rune Cage allows me to kill tanks with LESS people, LESS! Yet you claim I'm suggesting to zerg them down.
I say I can catch a retreating dodgeroller to keep him from recovering to re-engage or put up a camp, but you claim I'm chasing after people who don't wanna fight.
I told you how in my experience, good players survive Soul Assault and I'd rather have something that works against all builds, not just one, which Rune Cage does. And you still keep insisting how many free kills SA gives me.

What should I say? To me it looks like you haven't read or comprehended anything. And I like wasting my time.
I stand by my claim, Rune Cage gives me more killing options than Reach or Soul Assault, and SA only works against potatoes and glass cannons that left their LoS cover.
Nothing more to add.

[Edited for quote]

ToRelax

Maulkin wrote: »

[...]

And for the reference, my proposal was to reduce the cost of Annulment and morphs by 15% via a passive. With Harness or Dampen the only choice, Sorcs will very likely spec into the bigger Dampen shield. Which would have approx same cost as current Hardened Ward, yet bigger shield size. So no, they wouldn't be forced into a smaller ward. They would be forced into a bigger ward. Effectively, I proposed a marginally bigger shield for the same cost as current Hardened, in exchange for losing the ability to double stack.

IIRC, with 5 light armor Hardened is bigger than Dampen and even with 15% cost reduction on Annulment, Conjured Ward is cheaper.

Maulkin

ToRelax wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

[...]

And for the reference, my proposal was to reduce the cost of Annulment and morphs by 15% via a passive. With Harness or Dampen the only choice, Sorcs will very likely spec into the bigger Dampen shield. Which would have approx same cost as current Hardened Ward, yet bigger shield size. So no, they wouldn't be forced into a smaller ward. They would be forced into a bigger ward. Effectively, I proposed a marginally bigger shield for the same cost as current Hardened, in exchange for losing the ability to double stack.

IIRC, with 5 light armor Hardened is bigger than Dampen and even with 15% cost reduction on Annulment, Conjured Ward is cheaper.

I had a little spreadsheet with base values of shields and base costs:


The Dampen Magic value is with 5 light items so 5 * 6%. Unless these values changed recently, then Dampen is bigger than Hardened marginally , with 5 light. Albeit much, much more expensive. Now if you slot 7/7 light, Dampen blows Hardened out of the water in shield size.

The idea of a Damage Shield cost reduction passive is obviously to compensate for what you lose by having Hardened removed and then some, because you also lose the stack. So the 15% cost reduction might not be much on face value, as it still leaves Dampen a bit more expensive than Hardened (3510 vs 3901, before other reductions) but it also has other applications.

Healing Ward is a damage shield, so is Bone Shield. And of course Barrier. All Damage Shields would be affected by such a passive. Otherwise it's not a a generic Damage Shield passive, but a passive applied only to the Annulment skill. In which case it needs to be much stronger than 15%, more like 25% to bring it on par with Hardened.

Obviously these are semantics. The idea is to compensate the loss of Hardened and the double stack by offering something at least as good as running only 1 shield (Hardened) is at the moment. Otherwise it's an overnerf. So whether the passive value is 15% or 20% and which skills it applies to, is up for discussion. But the main concept is to only have 1 pre-cast shield to use, like any other magicka build, and to maybe to get a new Sorc skill in return rather than the lazy change of making Hardened and Annulment not stack.

LittlePinkDot

Started a stam blade, already liking it way better than sorc. Without shield stacking ZOS might as well lock sorc class "must be 160cp to unlock this class, elites only, beginners are not welcome"

Chilly-McFreeze

Maulkin wrote: »

You're wrong off the bat. That's not what I said, you're misquoting me or you read wrong. I said: "If I'm against more than 1 half-decent player I usually have to LOS or gtfo". More than 1 is two or more, not just one player.

Pardon me. I have misread this then. Of course you shouldn't be able to facetank multiples with one shield, I agree on that. Thought you ment it becomes "useless" against someone more than half decent. Sry about that, not my brightest act^^

Betsararie

SirMewser wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

My suggestion:

• Remove conjured ward.
• Replace conjured ward with Unstable Clannfear (without active).
• Unstable Clannfear 1st morphs into Empowering Clannfear providing the original shield to the sorc and all pets while all allies get minor intellect.
• Unstable Clannfear 2nd morphs into Stabilizing Clannfear providing the original heal to the sorc and pet while all allies get minor endurance.
• Unstable Familiar can get another new morph.

Harsh change but I think it would work well with some adjustments to numbers.

You're joking, right? You have to be joking, because this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. Just does not make sense in any way.

Oh don't turn everything into being about you.
I call alarmist sorc vilification.

No joke at all, don't like it?
Use annulment +morphs.
Use healing ward.

Want to stack or just have a stronger ward?
Will cost you keeping a pet up and another slot on backbar.

If you are a good player then this will not impact you.
How does this affect you unfairly, because you can't stack as easily?
Please explain or accept that the game isn't all about you.

It may not be all about me, but at least I can act like it is.

No I'm only joking. Obviously that is not a realistic viewpoint, and that is not my viewpoint.

But hell, if you say something absurd, you're liable to be called out. And sorcs have just endured one of the most extreme and over the top nerfs I've seen throughout my time playing the game, the frags nerf. Like it or not ZOS does take community feedback into account on some level. If there's enough QQ in the forums about something, they may look into it.

The frags nerf was enough, but you literally proposed removing conjured ward, which again I just can't wrap my mind around. It's just as bad as proposing to remove cloak, or vigor. That's right, vigor. What would you do without that? lol

So it's just ridiculous and had to be called out as such. Once the sorc's shields are down they're liable to be one shotted so that is why the whole 'sorc shield OP' argument is just tired and non-sensical at this point. If you're having trouble dueling sorcs, the best suggestion is to improve your timing, or possibly build for more damage. I play stam too as well as mag sorc and I can say that stam just deals more damage, which is why sorc's burst ability is actually more toward the middle in terms of effectiveness.

Sorc is a lot of fun though because in this stam warden meta sorcs fulfill a very unique niche that the stam builds simply cannot fill due to design. So sorc is still fun right now but honestly the frags nerf was a step in the wrong direction and they need to stop nerfing the class or there really won't be any reason to play magicka anymore besides healers because stam just deals so much more damage and as such better survivability due to heavy armor and blood spawn which are OP.

Curtdogg47

Shield stackers are frustrating as hell! I’m my personal experience I feel it’s all about timing your stun and burst.

If I button mash attacks I burn my stam and do no damage. Then I die. If I chase them I burn my stam and I die.

I have also found as a Stamblade, sometimes it’s best to cloak away reposition and wait for them to drop shields and then attack.

Or my favorite is to wait for them to get on there mount then get 2 snipes in there air as they ride away! By the time the first hits them there shields are down. And the second one will finish the job.

Chilly-McFreeze

Curtdogg47 wrote: »

Shield stackers are frustrating as hell! I’m my personal experience I feel it’s all about timing your stun and burst.

If I button mash attacks I burn my stam and do no damage. Then I die. If I chase them I burn my stam and I die.

I have also found as a Stamblade, sometimes it’s best to cloak away reposition and wait for them to drop shields and then attack.

Or my favorite is to wait for them to get on there mount then get 2 snipes in there air as they ride away! By the time the first hits them there shields are down. And the second one will finish the job.

So two easy ways to kill them? What's the problem?

Nah but really, you have to do a timed combo to kill them? Right, just how it should be. Button mashing will get you nowhere against anyone with a clue, no matter the class. Re-evaluate what you just wrote, please.

Qbiken

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Curtdogg47 wrote: »

Shield stackers are frustrating as hell! I’m my personal experience I feel it’s all about timing your stun and burst.

If I button mash attacks I burn my stam and do no damage. Then I die. If I chase them I burn my stam and I die.

I have also found as a Stamblade, sometimes it’s best to cloak away reposition and wait for them to drop shields and then attack.

Or my favorite is to wait for them to get on there mount then get 2 snipes in there air as they ride away! By the time the first hits them there shields are down. And the second one will finish the job.

So two easy ways to kill them? What's the problem?

Nah but really, you have to do a timed combo to kill them? Right, just how it should be. Button mashing will get you nowhere against anyone with a clue, no matter the class. Re-evaluate what you just wrote, please.

Unless you´re a werewolf = Light attack everything to death xD (Add shieldbreaker for extra salt/cheese)

technohic

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Curtdogg47 wrote: »

Shield stackers are frustrating as hell! I’m my personal experience I feel it’s all about timing your stun and burst.

If I button mash attacks I burn my stam and do no damage. Then I die. If I chase them I burn my stam and I die.

I have also found as a Stamblade, sometimes it’s best to cloak away reposition and wait for them to drop shields and then attack.

Or my favorite is to wait for them to get on there mount then get 2 snipes in there air as they ride away! By the time the first hits them there shields are down. And the second one will finish the job.

So two easy ways to kill them? What's the problem?

Nah but really, you have to do a timed combo to kill them? Right, just how it should be. Button mashing will get you nowhere against anyone with a clue, no matter the class. Re-evaluate what you just wrote, please.

I switched from my NB to my Templar last night and I’m not as good on my NB; it seemed on my Templar the deaths mostly came when someone lined up the burst combos. Same thing seen when I would fight someone who’s better at NB than me. If I saw them with just a sliver of health and my burst window was over; I knew that they’d reset with health to full.


Problem with this game is we all can stack to ridiculous numbers for damage and yet that also buffs the best defense right now which is heals and shields. There’s been some complaints about heals but I think shields get more attention as they are proactive so people don’t see the health bar move and are getting smacked by big shots at the same time, all while not seeing the pressure they are putting on the shield stacker.

AddictionX

they can shield stack sure... but remove the stun from streak or make it more telegraphed taking longer like a heavy attack. Sorcs currently can outrun a 60 mount with rapids and still put up shields 2x their hp in size all while still being able to burst a lot of damage.

Or....

Increase the cost of shield stacking similar to the increased cost of shields of roll dodge after streaking 3 times... leave everything as is.

Or...

Reduce their burst so that you actually have to do a trade-off between survivability/and dps.

Or...

After 25 percent hp shields cost more to keep up.... nothing like a 25k shield on a 1k hp streaking sorc.

Or...

ZOS actually listens to actual legitimate suggestions from other players or others will continuously give them idea's to wrongfully ruin your class. The sorc nerf is coming better choose wisely.

Vahrokh

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

The Benchmark should always be PVE Solo. If it becomes impossible to solo the game, then the game is broken. If the shields are required for PVE solo then PVPers just need to get over it.

Exactly. I exclusively play PvE, however I have had to endure 3 and half years of endless nerfs because some whiners die in PvP. And as usual, the developers are too lazy to create PvE balance distinct from PvP balance.

Biro123

Maulkin wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

[...]

And for the reference, my proposal was to reduce the cost of Annulment and morphs by 15% via a passive. With Harness or Dampen the only choice, Sorcs will very likely spec into the bigger Dampen shield. Which would have approx same cost as current Hardened Ward, yet bigger shield size. So no, they wouldn't be forced into a smaller ward. They would be forced into a bigger ward. Effectively, I proposed a marginally bigger shield for the same cost as current Hardened, in exchange for losing the ability to double stack.

IIRC, with 5 light armor Hardened is bigger than Dampen and even with 15% cost reduction on Annulment, Conjured Ward is cheaper.

I had a little spreadsheet with base values of shields and base costs:


The Dampen Magic value is with 5 light items so 5 * 6%. Unless these values changed recently, then Dampen is bigger than Hardened marginally , with 5 light. Albeit much, much more expensive. Now if you slot 7/7 light, Dampen blows Hardened out of the water in shield size.

The idea of a Damage Shield cost reduction passive is obviously to compensate for what you lose by having Hardened removed and then some, because you also lose the stack. So the 15% cost reduction might not be much on face value, as it still leaves Dampen a bit more expensive than Hardened (3510 vs 3901, before other reductions) but it also has other applications.

Healing Ward is a damage shield, so is Bone Shield. And of course Barrier. All Damage Shields would be affected by such a passive. Otherwise it's not a a generic Damage Shield passive, but a passive applied only to the Annulment skill. In which case it needs to be much stronger than 15%, more like 25% to bring it on par with Hardened.

Obviously these are semantics. The idea is to compensate the loss of Hardened and the double stack by offering something at least as good as running only 1 shield (Hardened) is at the moment. Otherwise it's an overnerf. So whether the passive value is 15% or 20% and which skills it applies to, is up for discussion. But the main concept is to only have 1 pre-cast shield to use, like any other magicka build, and to maybe to get a new Sorc skill in return rather than the lazy change of making Hardened and Annulment not stack.

Hm, that doesn't tie up with what I saw last time I compared them.. perhaps they scale differently on your stats? I seem to remember seeing very similar base amounts, but hardened gives a bigger % boost than

Vahrokh wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

The Benchmark should always be PVE Solo. If it becomes impossible to solo the game, then the game is broken. If the shields are required for PVE solo then PVPers just need to get over it.

Exactly. I exclusively play PvE, however I have had to endure 3 and half years of endless nerfs because some whiners die in PvP. And as usual, the developers are too lazy to create PvE balance distinct from PvP balance.

I disagree.
The game should always be balanced for PVP first - its the only way to ensure that the classes are even with each other. Then to balance that with PVE - adjust the mobs.

The problem with PVE balance though, isn't PVP - its CPs. Overland PVE is ridiculously easy with a max-cp, properly built character/experienced player - yet can be too difficult for a new player with no build/cp's, poor gear and not much game/mechanics experience.