Shor PC/NA "Official" Discussion

Glory

Rickter wrote: »

Munavar wrote: »

Let's be honest, you want squishy AD that you can treat as speed bumps.

Hey @joesmith583b14_ESO @Lord_Hev @Glory @A_G_G_R_O @Takuto etc - ya'll hear that? youre the "AD we treat as speed bumps". Sorry Munavar, but Requiem has been fighting against some of, if not the best ESO PvPers of 2017.

Hi Rickter, appreciate the compliment although I am most definitely a bump in the road. I do hear that Qaevir eats nails for breakfast though.

Regarding the whole meta in Shor thing, I'm at the point where I personally run off-meta because it's more fun for me. If people want to run meta/stack guilds/whatever (and it does happen on all factions, such as the multi-guild DC stack against 4 AD last night ) then power to them. Not my favorite experience to fight multi-destro, but I don't necessarily find it fair to be rude to people willing to play on a campaign that frankly could use more players often in the day (I'd personally like to see it 2 bar across the board instead of having 2/1/1 or 2/2/1, etc.).

That being said, we ran 4 people late last night when DC had the most population pushing the emperor ring and had some fun fights! At one point it was down to a red-owned Alessia, and the EP there defending were kind enough to let us on their battlements to hold the breach with them Both hilariously fun and some good fights all around!

A_G_G_R_O

the day they remove destro ult, the potatoes will fall harder than the nightblades on the day they remove troll kings.....

A_G_G_R_O

Until that day.....

We can only expect.....

To be faced with superior numbers and undodgeable ultimates stacked on top of one another and counter carry sets like earthgore.

We can only expect to be.....

Outplayed........

Rickter

pzschrek wrote: »

Well, now I confess I feel a little bit embarrassed about all the times I said what a great guy Rickter was in the TM TS. Don't hate me guys. XD

My concern for server well being shouldnt be confused with my character. I was very blunt with this topic because I dont know how else to be about it. Last night wasnt what we were used to on Shor, I think your team absolutely knew that, and from our perspective, it was simply disregard and lack of consideration. I dont know alot of people that praise two ball groups destroing each other. you can literally see two highly competitive teams discuss the boring playstyle it fosters on one of the pages here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/378539/the-zerg-drama-thread-formerly-how-to-fight-ball-groups/p1

The question I want you to ask is: is this meta something you want to continue to promote? and if so, do you want to be the ones responsible in transforming an entire server to conform to it?

Ah damn, well listen, I dont want you guys to think I hate [snip - name and shame] I just always thought highly of your group, and then when we finally fought each other, it was unlike anything we could have prepared for. There wasnt that "mutual respect" Ive felt from Adamant, or Evil Hearts or BCC or DEAD WAIT or even Dreadlords truth be told. It felt like being a fly, swatted by a tank.

Glory wrote: »

I don't necessarily find it fair to be rude to people willing to play on a campaign that frankly could use more players often in the day

I was expressing more disappointment than anything. I was very blunt about it, as is my way, and I apologize if that comes off rude. I think if I had spoken about it in discord, youd be able to gauge my tone a bit better but that didnt happen and i do treat this thread as an ongoing community discussion outlet, since im not in other discords.

Apoxsee

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

I just want to start a pc fund so we can convince serjustin19 to play pc NA Shor with us so I can be a part of his glorious posts

Oh god, I can’t agree more... but he has got to play for AD or EP.

Adenoma

When they nerf the destro ult it's just going to shift back to pre-destro meta of bat trains.

People need to differentiate between pugs and organized groups. Pugs using destros are still pugs and nothing changes if they use destro ult or don't. Organized groups are still going to be organized and those potatoes won't fall once they nerf that ult.

casparian

Adenoma wrote: »

When they nerf the destro ult it's just going to shift back to pre-destro meta of bat trains.

People need to differentiate between pugs and organized groups. Pugs using destros are still pugs and nothing changes if they use destro ult or don't. Organized groups are still going to be organized and those potatoes won't fall once they nerf that ult.

That's why it isn't about the destro ult. You're right, nerfing one skill isn't going to change the style of gameplay enabled and encouraged by ZOS' Cyrodiil design. What's needed is a redesign such that Cyrodiil PVP no longer rewards player for stacking together in large groups. There are plenty of excellent suggestions for how to do that floating around on the forums.

Joshlenoir

I think we can find some middle ground between @Rickter and @PenguinInACan .
What it seems like to me is Rickter is having a hard time digesting the medium to large scale group PvP meta that hasn't really been polluting Shor too much until that day. Is TM a stronger group than Requiem? Who knows, but Requiem doesn't have multiple earthgores, Destro Ults, and other fire and forget carry mechanics like TM does, which puts them at a huge disadvantage if the numbers are anywhere similar unless they have strong players with powerful builds that don't need to rely on these mechanics to win (which they don't).

So in summary: Rickter got a taste of the medium/large scale group PvP Meta fire and forget, press the R key playstyle which has left a bad taste in his mouth
And
Penguin is taking offence because truth is his groups rely on mechanics with no counterplay that either deliver an abnormal amount of AoE pressure or an abnormal amount of AoE survivability while only having to press 2 buttons outside of keeping their buffs up

Did I miss anything?

Apoxsee

Joshlenoir wrote: »

I think we can find some middle ground between @Rickter and @PenguinInACan .
What it seems like to me is Rickter is having a hard time digesting the medium to large scale group PvP meta that hasn't really been polluting Shor too much until that day. Is TM a stronger group than Requiem? Who knows, but Requiem doesn't have multiple earthgores, Destro Ults, and other fire and forget carry mechanics like TM does, which puts them at a huge disadvantage if the numbers are anywhere similar unless they have strong players with powerful builds that don't need to rely on these mechanics to win (which they don't).

So in summary: Rickter got a taste of the medium/large scale group PvP Meta fire and forget, press the R key playstyle which has left a bad taste in his mouth
And
Penguin is taking offence because truth is his groups rely on mechanics with no counterplay that either deliver an abnormal amount of AoE pressure or an abnormal amount of AoE survivability while only having to press 2 buttons outside of keeping their buffs up

Did I miss anything?

Yes... that you killed this campaign! Lol I kid of course.

Grimlok_S

Well if any DC groups are going to conform I have 5k stam recovery and only slot rapids!!!

My body is ready!

Rickter

I think @Joshlenoir hit the nail right on the head there. As I stated multiple times, Im not trying to create bad blood or start a feud. I was expressing the concern rooted in the fact that if that play style takes hold, or otherwise influences the server too much, Shor is going to be a lost cause.

I was particularly direct about it because I know home boys know what Shor is all about. I saw @NBrookus give props to you guys not too long ago for "being mindful" in regards to the destro meta. So i know you know. Maybe your aim was the EP, but honestly, by 9pm EP was on the decline and some adjustments could have been made. There doesnt need to be any animosity. First thing on two of my posts was that I didnt want bad blood. If discussing this in an open forum isnt desired I'll more than happy to reach out to someone directly.

A_G_G_R_O

Wait we aren’t using the “outplayed” reasoning anymore?

DeadlyRecluse

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Wait we aren’t using the “outplayed” reasoning anymore?

Why not both?

EDIT: I kinda-sorta topic, I honestly don't see a huge distinction to dying to 8 destro ults dropped by a group of 24 EP and 8 destro ults dropped by 12 AD.

Rickter

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Wait we aren’t using the “outplayed” reasoning anymore?

its too strong of a word. we're using "well played" now

technohic

I think @PenguinInACan made a decent point in that if they gets zerged while in a group of 2; they are going to take that opportunity to get payback if they can and balling up like that in a 12 man is probably the best way to do that against 20+ outside of getting 20+ yourself. I mean; I know that there are some groups here that can string those guys out; like Campaign Killers and Animosity, but best I can do is maybe take out 4 or 5 really bad ones before being killed and all of them getting rezzed anyway.

I guess I am saying I get it. Its just not fun to run that sort of set up for me nor run into it.

Adenoma

For what it's worth, there is counterplay. Just very few people (as evidenced by @Rickter and @Joshlenoir ) want to participate in that meta. If you want counterplay, pack destros, build VD tanks, build group synergy and redundant heals/buffs, get a couple purge specs/rapid spec, and pack negates/earthgore.

Adenoma

And I would posit that building for a strong group, then railing other groups with a 12 man does lend itself to at least being out-planned. Having run with raids like that in the past I'll say it's equally demanding for their leads as small groups, but I think this is a point that isn't worth debating with some of this thread's audience.

Joshlenoir

Adenoma wrote: »

For what it's worth, there is counterplay. Just very few people (as evidenced by @Rickter and @Joshlenoir ) want to participate in that meta. If you want counterplay, pack destros, build VD tanks, build group synergy and redundant heals/buffs, get a couple purge specs/rapid spec, and pack negates/earthgore.

So I need to have a VD tank, tons of healing debugger, purge and rapids builds, then have multiple earthgores and Destro Ults to fight that madness? And I'm supposed to somehow do this in a 4-6 man group (which I usually run) while still being able to have the damage to kill anything that isn't a mud crab? Needing to run a bunch of specific builds packed in a group(let's be honest, you don't find any of that outside of 10-24 man's) isn't "counterplay", that's just overwhelming it with numbers.

NBrookus

So I've been gone from Cyrodiil playing something else for 2 weeks, but I have to have treadmill reading material, right? And rumor is there might be a small BCC group tonight and we hadn't decided which faction to play yet.

If I understand the current situtation correctly... AD is still routinely underpopulated, EP is still fielding zergs at will. All 3 factions are still pvdoor emp flipping. The AD players who DO play Shor are small scalers, and they are being told they aren't welcome because Shor is now a medium scale campaign. So a medium scale AD group shows up, and those AD aren't welcome either?

I dont think its fair to demand i split my group up and force them into small man groups whn they arent that kind of player.

You don't want to change your playstyle to suit others. Fair enough. Maybe you shouldn't then expect others to change their playstyle to suit you? I'm not trying to pick on you here; I know you are trying to make Shor into the kind of campaign you have envisioned, and Requiem keeps (kept?) DC ticking in prime time. But you don't always get what you want. I sure never liked trying to fight 12+ Requiem or 24+ Dreadlords and the infinite rezzes with a group of 3 or 4.

I share the distaste for the destro blob meta. TM is one of the groups I avoid because a ball group is zero fun to fight, but if TM is farming an outpost, all you gotta do is go around them. And heck, if they are sitting between EP and DC... let EP bang their heads up against that while you go snake something out from under another faction.

pzschrek

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

I just want to start a pc fund so we can convince serjustin19 to play pc NA Shor with us so I can be a part of his glorious posts

This is the best idea in the whole thread.

A_G_G_R_O

pzschrek wrote: »

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

I just want to start a pc fund so we can convince serjustin19 to play pc NA Shor with us so I can be a part of his glorious posts

This is the best idea in the whole thread.

Just imagine a serjustin19 and Rickter debate , we would have essays to read all day.

A_G_G_R_O

Really good fights last night, saw some stormhaven duelers in full force and even tho I wasn’t excited to get hunted down I realized that in reality it wasn’t an 8 v 1; I was just 1v1ing 8 people at the same time and was outplayed.... a humbling evening indeed.

Rickter

Good Lord have mercy. . .

NBrookus wrote: »

The AD players who DO play Shor are small scalers, and they are being told they aren't welcome because Shor is now a medium scale campaign.

No one is saying small scalers arent welcome. The context of that conversation was that small scalers knowingly engage larger groups and when doing so, they forfeit their right on whether they can complain about an undesirable outcome.

NBrookus wrote: »

So a medium scale AD group shows up, and those AD aren't welcome either?

No one is saying medium scale AD groups arent welcome, only the destro blob trains that you yourself are a SUPPOSED opponent of

NBrookus wrote: »

You don't want to change your playstyle to suit others.

I have no problem changing my personal play style, bu the context of this was that I have a lot of new players that cant and will not be expected to "git gud" over night by thrusting them into 5 mans. It goes against fostering a PvP community on Shor and without that service, the entry gap for new players versus say, your group, gets wider.

NBrookus wrote: »

I share the distaste for the destro blob meta. TM is one of the groups I avoid because a ball group is zero fun to fight, but if TM is farming an outpost, all you gotta do is go around them.

except they werent farming an outpost, they were stealthed behind a rock and bombing a DC v EP engagement, or farming a gate that sure we could have gone WAAAAY around but dont be silly.

_________________________________________

NBrookus wrote: »

I'm not trying to pick on you here

Are you sure about that? All I wanted was you to back me up that you gave props to TM one time about being considerate in their destro bombing meta. Instead, your entire response was twisting and misinterpreting not one, not two, but three things ive said.

I am so sorry for even bothering to tag you. lulz

Rickter

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

Just imagine a serjustin19 and Rickter debate , we would have essays to read all day.

We can market it like a Mayweather McGregor fight.

lets do this!

in all seriousness though, If i didnt come in here half the time guns blazin, what would you guys even talk about?

Glory

There's a crazy amount of salt piling up in this thread the past few days

kpittsniperb14_ESO

Rickter wrote: »

pzschrek wrote: »

Well, now I confess I feel a little bit embarrassed about all the times I said what a great guy Rickter was in the TM TS. Don't hate me guys. XD

My concern for server well being shouldnt be confused with my character. I was very blunt with this topic because I dont know how else to be about it. Last night wasnt what we were used to on Shor, I think your team absolutely knew that, and from our perspective, it was simply disregard and lack of consideration. I dont know alot of people that praise two ball groups destroing each other. you can literally see two highly competitive teams discuss the boring playstyle it fosters on one of the pages here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/378539/the-zerg-drama-thread-formerly-how-to-fight-ball-groups/p1

The question I want you to ask is: is this meta something you want to continue to promote? and if so, do you want to be the ones responsible in transforming an entire server to conform to it?

Ah damn, well listen, I dont want you guys to think I hate [snip - name and shame] I just always thought highly of your group, and then when we finally fought each other, it was unlike anything we could have prepared for. There wasnt that "mutual respect" Ive felt from Adamant, or Evil Hearts or BCC or DEAD WAIT or even Dreadlords truth be told. It felt like being a fly, swatted by a tank.

Glory wrote: »

I don't necessarily find it fair to be rude to people willing to play on a campaign that frankly could use more players often in the day

I was expressing more disappointment than anything. I was very blunt about it, as is my way, and I apologize if that comes off rude. I think if I had spoken about it in discord, youd be able to gauge my tone a bit better but that didnt happen and i do treat this thread as an ongoing community discussion outlet, since im not in other discords.

One of the reasons we have been playing a bit on Shor is that I've been told your guild wanted to fight TM, and now you have. I could understand where you are coming from if we brought over a 24 man raid and pushed everyone to their gates but that didn't happen. Saturday we saw the usual faction stacking DC guilds in all their glory steamrolling the map with the locals more than happy to ride that wave but not a single post on this thread mentioning that.....didn't look like small scale to me. We bring 12 guys over to fight 3 bars of EP and 3 bars of DC but we're somehow the bad guys here because we use builds that maximize our ability to fight those large groups and are successful.

This "meta" has been around since the game launched only the skills have changed to some degree. If they removed destro ult today it wouldn't effect our guild at all. We would make the required adjustments and continue on. TM doesn't disrespect any other play style in the game because they all have their place. 1vX ers and small scale players add something to the map and if people are having fun doing that and making their videos then good on them. What those groups cannot do is check large zergs or faction stacks and take defended keeps which is what groups like ours are built to do. It is a completely different skill set.

I don't think the term "outplayed" means what you think it means, unless attempting to stealth bomb a group while you outnumber them and then having that group turn and trash you multiple times is the new definition. You guys have been running 16 deep for a bit and have enjoyed doing your thing. You get checked by another smaller group for one evening and immediately come into this thread using insulting terms to describe my guild "filthly" etc which is fine. We have never cared what anyone in this game has thought about us, don't care to be respected, liked or disliked. We just are.

What the issue really is in my opinion is that some people want to play the game in a more casual way, don't want to organize their groups, use group oriented builds and want to play in a lazy loose fashion which is fine, but on the other hand want to be extremely critical of groups that take a more serious approach to group builds. The one thing I have always appreciated about ESO pvp is the ability to be able to take on much larger numbers if you are coordinated enough and skilled enough and that is exactly they play style we are promoting. Throwing 16 people together with solo builds does not a competent group make. If it were easy you would have already done so....it is however much easier to throw out excuses and statements such as "destro ball groups" "hitting R and W" and "Zenimax is looking into your playstyle" than to assess your weaknesses and modify your builds which is apparently the route you have chosen to go.

For all of the talk in this thread about what is unacceptable for this server I have yet to see the official rule set for Shor so please enlighten us and to how to properly gimp ourselves in an acceptable manner. How many can I bring, what skills are verbotten, what should my win loss ratio be?

Rickter

Requiem does not field raids on the weekends. So im not sure who those DC were that youre referring to but to bring that into the context of last night is silly.

Idk how many times ive seen the bar population brought up by people in your group but you need to lean on something else. Bar pop means nothing. To my knowledge there was 16 in Requiem and around 6-14 in PUGz. I am not aware of any other DC fighting force aside from zone pugs. So your guess as to where the “3 bar DC” were is as good as mine. A common theory is that they are farming IC.

Rickter

I honestly cant believe the defense for a playstyle not a single person enjoys, condones or supports on this server.

you had 12, we had 16. stop acting like you were so overwhelmed that you had to destro bomb us. That's no better than the "we had to zerg you down" mentality.

Rickter

Glory wrote: »

There's a crazy amount of salt piling up in this thread the past few days

It's because I called out something not a single person outside of TM likes or supports, including yourself, and turns out nearly everyone in TM has a forum account so they are stacking and padding their argument.

kpittsniperb14_ESO

Rickter wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

There's a crazy amount of salt piling up in this thread the past few days

It's because I called out something not a single person outside of TM likes or supports, including yourself, and turns out neraly everyone in TM has a forum account so they are stacking and padding their argument.

Aaaaaaand I'm done with this thread.