Fake Tank = Kick - Chat Screenshots

Sru

MaddPowered wrote: »

You don't need a tank for most any vet dungeons. You can even get away with doing vDSA with no tank if you have competent players. L2RollDodge

No, but it is also good practice for tanks to do Vet dungeons - preferably with people to help them learn their role. Goodness only knows how else tanks get to level, my full tank DPS is around 4k ... don't die but the foes generally only die of boredom.

And, to repeat most general comments, it is not about the necessity for tank but about general politeness and not taking the p*ss. Those doing it are (generally) of a certain personality type - often on multiple ignore lists as a result of it. If you want to pretend to be a tank, then at least have the courtesy to behave like one even if you are not generally. It's not hard to get a frost staff, tanking gear, bar full of shields and do that job - even with light armour. Still taking liberties with the intention of dungeon finder but at least you can do the job you pretended to be.

Nogawd

lynog85 wrote: »

bhagwad wrote: »

MaddPowered wrote: »

bhagwad wrote: »

MaddPowered wrote: »

bhagwad wrote: »

Belyar wrote: »

Most base game vet dungeons can be easily done with 3 DD as long as the healer is good. Sorry but you were the ****** here and not that guy who wanted to have fun and clear the dungeon fast. DLC dungeons are a different story.

Tell that to all the teams that wipe without a tank to hold aggro and keep the box still...

You don't need a tank for most any vet dungeons. You can even get away with doing vDSA with no tank if you have competent players. L2RollDodge

Again, tell that to all the teams that wipe without a tank, and see what they have to say.

I'll tell the teams who wipe without a tank to quit being baddies. Lmao.

And if you had your way, those "baddies" shouldn't be allowed to use the dungeon finder tool right?

If they wipe. They need to have a look at themselves rather than blame the lack of a tank. Bar the odd dungeon. Its much EASIER to do dungeons with all DDs or 3 and a bit of a healer.

Agreed. As a prime healer I prefer 3 dps in majority of dungeon runs, especially normals for sure.

Solariken

I queue pretty often as tank and wear medium armor full-DPS gear and can't remember the last time I died because if it.

If you know how to actively mitigate damage and keep boss aggro then what's the problem?

Just make sure your "tank" isn't actually a scrub before you start the vote kick.

bhagwad

Runefang wrote: »

bhagwad wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Half the people who queue in the DPS role can't do much damage.

So yeah, they're cheating since they can't fulfill the role they chose?

As long as they're trying to fulfill their role, no one can legitimately call it cheating.

They're certainly wasting my time though, like a fake tank. I'd rather a fake tank instead of a bad DPS, because as many have said, a real tank isn't needed most of the time.

There a difference between not being "good" and being a cheater. The former simply comes with the territory of the dungeon finder tool, and should be expected. The latter, is simply unacceptable to me.

Dantaria

Funny how some people here, while trying to show how "elite" they are, confuse apples and oranges and show that they are anything but elite.

If you can solo vet dungeon, if you don't need tank and healer, you're bad DD. Period.

I can solo vet dungeon. I can finish vMA - as a matter of fact, I comfortably farm vMA. But do I do those things with the same build I use in group content? Hell no.

In group content good DDs are glass cannons with minimal survivability. Actually good DDs do need tank, yes. Sorry, but 35k+ DPS cannot be achieved if third of our skills is for survival and if we are forced to recast our DoTs every 3 secs, because boss moves. Morrowind did a couple of things with our sustain, if you didn't notice.

As a matter of fact, I prefer 3DD + tank, if we talk about premade group. PUG? Both tank and healer, please. I'll solo this **** in terms of DPS, if other DD is bad, no worries, but make it comfortable for me, ok?

If you bring your vMA build to vet group content and gloat about how you can solo whole thing, you're doing it absolutely wrong. If you actually can easily solo whole thing as someone who queued as DD to vet group content, you're doing it wrong.

Sevn

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Everyone defending the fake tank does it too.

My thoughts exactly. That and so many desperate to show how "elite" they are. My god I hope they don't hurt themselves with all that self backpatting.

HatchetHaro

Actually, vFG2 (the dungeon OP was in) is doable with a dps queued as a tank as long as he slots a taunt and knows how to stay alive. Difficult, but possible.

Source: have switched from my tank build to my dps build in vFG2 multiple times, all of them due to the other two dps having abysmally low damage, low enough to stop our progress. Even soloed the final boss once when the other two dps got tired of being carried and left just before the boss fight, and the healer died.

There are also plenty of vet dungeons completely viable with no tank. Just gotta be extra good at dps.

KRBMMO

jlboozer wrote: »

It is very annoying when I que for 40 mins as dps like I'm supposed to and then end up with 3 more dps after all that time....I need a healer and a tank, not 2 more dps. And usually the fake tank/healer isn't even that great of a dps, they make it harder on everyone because they're selfish. IMO to que as tank you should be required to have a taunt on your bar, same with healers and having a heal barred. I don't usually initiate a kick on anybody because I think its scrubby, but I'm gonna start with people in these fake roles. And I'm a dps myself, but I actually que as a DPS....its unfair to everyone else!

My point in bold. People who cheat to get a shortcut probably cheated in other way as well. They probably leveled to where they are with the dolmen rubber band technique before ZOS fixed it.

When I want to play "every man for himself" I'll just play solo content. The whole idea of dungeons and trials is that you work as a team.

Imagine you're playing basketball and one guy never plays defense, never passes, and always shoots every time you pass to him. Will you continue to play with him? Not me.

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

As a reminder, we need to keep threads and posts civil and constructive. Failure to do so can result in this thread being closed, and appropriate action to be taken.

Thank you for your understanding!

starkerealm

Dantaria wrote: »

I can solo vet dungeon. I can finish vMA - as a matter of fact, I comfortably farm vMA. But do I do those things with the same build I use in group content? Hell no.

Yeah, this is a very good point that gets lost. Especially when we're dealing with people who learned how to play by watching build videos on youtube without learning the mechanics.

templesus

I que as tank and healer 24/7 on my dps. Never been kicked and we always finished dungeon.
L2P issue

LadyNalcarya

starkerealm wrote: »

Dantaria wrote: »

I can solo vet dungeon. I can finish vMA - as a matter of fact, I comfortably farm vMA. But do I do those things with the same build I use in group content? Hell no.

Yeah, this is a very good point that gets lost. Especially when we're dealing with people who learned how to play by watching build videos on youtube without learning the mechanics.

Agreed.
Especially if we're talking about group finder groups and people who dont even care about builds and stuff.
And honestly, healer is less important than tank if we're talking about high dps groups... Simply because a lot of dps comes from ground DoTs and when people have to spam shields and kite bosses and dodge all over the place, its a huge dps loss. A good tank, on the other hand, can stay alive, keep bosses in one spot, stack adds and provide some buffs. There's many hard-hitting bosses so if you're a dd and boss is attacking you, you cant do as much damage as you would do normally, which greatly reduces the benefit of having 3 dds in group.

Bhaal5

Im confussed by all the salt.

1st, Who actually uses group finder? I simply ask my guildies, spots filled up in minutes and then we do the dungeon. No que and no crying needed.
2nd, depending on your level, if you're doing base game dungeons you can 4 dps them in most cases, so no need for a tank or healer (dlc dungeons are harder and may need atleast one of these rolls if not both). If new/lower cp, refer to the first statement. Ask mates, not pugs. Problem solved, happy gaming.

Myyth

lynog85 wrote: »

The majority of the 4mans can be done without tanks or healers. So who really cares?

Sadly this the popular player opinion I am encountering in dungeons.
Ay first like the OP I used to point out in chat and then vote to kick the fake tank.
But I have found that the vote rarely ever passes. Most of the time nothing happens and the fake tank gets away with fast queue time.
So I've given up. It doesn't seem anyone cares.

Kali_Despoine

When stupid dps thinks he's a tank I do nothing and I mean nothing. Obviously he can solo the content so I let hem.

bhagwad

templesus wrote: »

I que as tank and healer 24/7 on my dps. Never been kicked and we always finished dungeon.
L2P issue

Do you play the role you queued for?

bhagwad

Bhaal5 wrote: »

Im confussed by all the salt.

1st, Who actually uses group finder? I simply ask my guildies, spots filled up in minutes and then we do the dungeon. No que and no crying needed.
2nd, depending on your level, if you're doing base game dungeons you can 4 dps them in most cases, so no need for a tank or healer (dlc dungeons are harder and may need atleast one of these rolls if not both). If new/lower cp, refer to the first statement. Ask mates, not pugs. Problem solved, happy gaming.

This thread is only for those who use the group finder to queue for dungeons. I personally find it much faster than asking people manually in the guild. Different strokes for different people.

kargen27

Bhaal5 wrote: »

Im confussed by all the salt.

1st, Who actually uses group finder? I simply ask my guildies, spots filled up in minutes and then we do the dungeon. No que and no crying needed.
2nd, depending on your level, if you're doing base game dungeons you can 4 dps them in most cases, so no need for a tank or healer (dlc dungeons are harder and may need atleast one of these rolls if not both). If new/lower cp, refer to the first statement. Ask mates, not pugs. Problem solved, happy gaming.

Guildies are not always online or may be doing other things. Sometimes newer players haven't found a functioning guild yet.
Working on a new rotation sometimes jumping in with a random group makes sense.

OP specifically said vet dungeons. Thread kind of digressed from there. The problem is yes most these dungeons can easily be done with just DPS. That doesn't teach new players about mechanics nor working with a group though. If you carry newer players through content or ignore mechanics and group dynamics later when they want to give the harder vet content a try they are starting with a huge handicap. Might as well learn the details early when it is easy.

And sometimes it is fun to run with a random group just for a change of pace. Dungeons can get tedious if everybody in group always knows just where to stand and when to do what.

Getting back to what the OP was about when it comes to vet content you should go in as advertised.

Bhaal5

But question still unanswered, why use group finder and not your guilds? You have 5 guild spots, so there is a high percentage of people actually willing to help and explain mechanics and teach you?

Personally i hardly use group finder (unless i want to practice self sustain/survivablity of a new build) i dont know must be blessed to have a great guild thats always helpful filling these spots, so there is no time wasted and help out new members if the need dungeons explained and getting their first monster helm.

So personally believe OP can be more of a guild issue as much as a "group finder" issue. Plus where is the incentive to be a healer or tank in this game where the focus is all about dps? Sorta why it feels like the group finder is broke, its not broke if there just aint the numbers there to fill the roles

bhagwad

Bhaal5 wrote: »

But question still unanswered, why use group finder and not your guilds? You have 5 guild spots, so there is a high percentage of people actually willing to help and explain mechanics and teach you?

Personally i hardly use group finder (unless i want to practice self sustain/survivablity of a new build) i dont know must be blessed to have a great guild thats always helpful filling these spots, so there is no time wasted and help out new members if the need dungeons explained and getting their first monster helm.

So personally believe OP can be more of a guild issue as much as a "group finder" issue. Plus where is the incentive to be a healer or tank in this game where the focus is all about dps? Sorta why it feels like the group finder is broke, its not broke if there just aint the numbers there to fill the roles

I just like to press a button and get grouped up. No typing, no asking for help and waiting. Click a button, go about my regular work, and when ready, bam! Like I said, it's a personal preference thing.

And I need people to at least try and perform the roles they voluntarily signed up for. Else, the kick

ForsakenSin

yhea i get what OP is saying if you choose to be a tank you should be able to fulfill that roll same for healer ect however even then things can go wrong ....

I had a cp 630 tank with 55k health .. who DID NOT TAUNT ALL THE TIME... and when he did guess what he done? RUN AROUND the room so all of the AoE was wasted and the ult ... worst tank ive came across ...actually .. there was a tank with with 45k health with double bar bow... which.. nobody understood ....

and then again i had a sorc Tank and DPS with 16k health and guess what ? it was amazing he was doing dps and taunting the bosses in one place and managed to pull of a heal or two if needed

Sometimes for easier vet dungeons i select dps and heals as i can do both and there was times when tank was really bad i had to change all my gear to and tank instead

so honestly it comes down to players i don't care what you select as long as you know what your doing your good in my books.

ForsakenSin

Ps i have to agree as well most of the dungeons you can just go with all DPS and ive came across those as well in pugs, and it was a speed run all the time .. easy and quick.

One thing that frustrated me in a random pug


me " don't go in bubble" he goes in ... reset.. again
me "dont go in bubble" goes in .... reset..
me"DONT GO IN BUBBLE "
him cp 540..."ok i will not... " goes inside the bubble... vote to kick...

get a new guy cp 480.. him "heya"..
others "hey we are at last boss'
him "nice" .....
me " ok just dont go in bubble "
him "k"
.... goes inside of the bubble....
me " are you kidding me.."??
me " please please don't go inside the bubble its ok you will not die..
him .. ok i will not..sorry" .... goes inside of bubble ... reset..
everybody else "DON'T GO INSIDE THE BUBBLE...
him .. ok ... goes inside of the bubble... that is bye bye

next guy join... cp 590
others " please for the love of everything don't go inside the bubble....
him "LOL ok np" goes in side the bubble..
me" AA IS THIS A JOKE!? .. please PLEASE don't go inside the bubble.... goes inside ... im done

screw this lets try to finish 3 man.. done...

Yarlenzey

What selfish tossage. We should all queue as healers and let u all die.

bhagwad

ForsakenSin wrote: »

yhea i get what OP is saying if you choose to be a tank you should be able to fulfill that roll same for healer ect however even then things can go wrong ....

I had a cp 630 tank with 55k health .. who DID NOT TAUNT ALL THE TIME... and when he did guess what he done? RUN AROUND the room so all of the AoE was wasted and the ult ... worst tank ive came across ...actually .. there was a tank with with 45k health with double bar bow... which.. nobody understood ....

and then again i had a sorc Tank and DPS with 16k health and guess what ? it was amazing he was doing dps and taunting the bosses in one place and managed to pull of a heal or two if needed

Sometimes for easier vet dungeons i select dps and heals as i can do both and there was times when tank was really bad i had to change all my gear to and tank instead

so honestly it comes down to players i don't care what you select as long as you know what your doing your good in my books.

I agree. As long as the tank taunts and holds the boss still, I couldn't care less about their race/class/weapons. But even if they don't, they merely have a misguided notion of what a tank is supposed to do. These individuals can be talked to, and instructed as to what a tank's role is.

A "fake tank" however, is one who deliberately queues as a tank, despite knowing full well that they have no intention of behaving like a tank. Talking to them is meaningless, since they don't care about fulfilling a tank's role in the first place!

It's this second class of people that I'm addressing in my thread.

SquareSausage

You can pretty much 4 dps any vet dungeon except some of the DLC ones, 3 dps makes it go quicker.

I'd give it a shot and if not working sure, kick him. But if things are dying fast, no tank required.

I guess OP is obv just a grump with a chip on his shoulder.

bhagwad

ForsakenSin wrote: »

Ps i have to agree as well most of the dungeons you can just go with all DPS and ive came across those as well in pugs, and it was a speed run all the time .. easy and quick.

It doesn't bother you that the "fake tank" cheated the queue to get a dungeon quickly, whereas the genuine DPS guys might have had to honestly wait 40 minutes for their turn to play?

Would the "fake tank" have queued as a tank if the wait times were the same for all roles? If the answer is "no", then it's pretty obvious that they're cheaters.

Bhaal5

I hear all these horror storys of "ive waited 45 minutes in the dps que" and similar. Would of stopped waiting after 5 minutes asked my guilds (well only ask one in my case) most cases grouped up in 5-10 minutes

But its hard for group finder to work when you have 100 dps and 2 healers and 2 tanks queing. For that same dungeon

Meld777

Simple rule: If you queue as a Tank, taunt the boss and hold him still. If you also bring some dps - great! If you have Tank role and don't have taunt - kick!

If you're a Healer, my rule goes slightly different. If you have drain and know how to use it, I don't need your healing. If you're a real Healer without drain - fair enough. But a fake Healer without drain - kick!

BrightOblivion

Regardless of your opinions regarding group finder, using it comes with an understanding: that those who queue will fill the roles they queued for. When I queue as dps, particularly for a vet dungeon, I didn't do so to have the boss constantly in my face or try to keep everyone alive. I did so to stay alive as much as I can, rez people when I'm able, stay out of the stupid and *gasp* dps. In normal, even for dlc dungeons, you just need one good dps and maybe some warm bodies who know mechanics and don't rush into encounters that close doors and lock part of the team out. So, generally, I'll forgive a lot more.

In vet, though, more can go wrong, and so everyone's on a tighter leash. I'll wait until the first boss certainly, unless there's something obvious like a CP50 in vWGT. But if there are issues on that first boss, like the person queued as tank not tanking or the person queued as healer not healing, or dps not dealing damage, then it's gonna be time to make adjustments. I don't care if you're the dps who thinks he's Talos's gift to mere mortals and deserves to skip the queue by pretending to be a tank. You queued as a tank, you're dang well going to be judged as a tank. That means staying alive, holding aggro, and keeping the boss in one place.

"But you can do this stuff with 4 dps" isn't an argument to keep you around, because, while we can certainly adapt, the fact of the matter is that we shouldn't have to because you should actually give a crap about other people and queue for the role you're filling. If I'm having to adapt because the boss is all over the place or in my face trying to kill me, I'm not as focused on dealing damage as I would be otherwise. I'm not enjoying it as much as I would be otherwise. And I'm not dealing as much damage as I would be otherwise. Exactly what part of that lands in your favor?

You queued for a role. You didn't fill the role. Pretty cut and dry. If the majority agrees, you get shown the door. Have a spiffy day.

bhagwad

Bhaal5 wrote: »

I hear all these horror storys of "ive waited 45 minutes in the dps que" and similar. Would of stopped waiting after 5 minutes asked my guilds (well only ask one in my case) most cases grouped up in 5-10 minutes

But its hard for group finder to work when you have 100 dps and 2 healers and 2 tanks queing. For that same dungeon

It just goes to show that ZOS thinks a tank's role is critical in a dungeon finder based vet dungeon. Ask anyone who's used the dungeon finder, and they'll tell you that 90% of vet dungeons formed via the dungeon finder NEED a tank.

ZOS has all the data they need to make an informed decision regarding this, so if they still make a tank role mandatory, it means they still think it's necessary. And I agree.

I'm glad asking your guilds works for you. It doesn't work for me.