Endgame raiding incentives

Cryptical

Urza1234 wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

Having bosses that surprise you with unexpected actions means you have to pay attention instead of taking a long pull off the bong and washing it down with some of your dad’s beer from the fridge.

Pick one: Rng boss actions resulting in fights you can’t sleep through and endanger your self image of “I am gud”.... Or scripted boss mechanics that are hard to learn at first but result in you being bored.

Rng is really not the answer, the player still just has to learn the boss, except then they would just have to learn each of the bosses possible actions/phases independently. It wouldnt really make boss fights more interesting, rather both more tedious to learn for the player and more tedious to design for the developer, while also introducing more potential for BS mechanic combinations with 0 counterplay.

You would also potentially lose out on characterization of bosses, because there are limited amount of mechanics available in the game and each boss would just become a mishmash of a subset of those mechanics with much more overlap with other bosses, rather than icons of pve content.

And during the fight the players would have to pay attention to what is being done next. Gone would be the days of “boss does 3 right jabs, a left elbow, a right uppercut, and a trip” that allows a player to dodge 3 times, block right, block left, step back - as a macro pattern their fingers push on autopilot.

Players would have to watch, only 1 jab? 2 jabs? Is it an elbow now? Or an uppercut? A trip? A kick?

And with magic attacks being in the list, there’s still plenty of room for uniqueness. Possible actions are as limited as your imagination.

Quit being scared of new things.

Love Wizard

I see Zenimax still hasn't bothered to even boil up a reply? I mean, have a look at this thread, there's clear evidence here that something has to change, and it has to happen now.

Danksta

Asardes wrote: »

A trial lasts 30-45 minutes, meaning you will use 40-60 spell power potions, which are around 160 a piece if you buy them or about 140 if you make them yourself. Using rough maths that means between 5500-9500 gold spent if you want 100% potion up time (they last 47.5s and the cooldown is 45s). A vet trial will give you 10-12K worth of undaunted plunder, and HM another 10K from the end boss. If you vendor the trash gear you get or decon the set items and sell the tempers and style materials on guild stores you will get 1000-1500 gold, enough to cover armor repairs. So you will at least break even and potentially do 10K+ in profits. IMO the monetary rewards for vet trials are right and should stay the same.

But for us console plebs, mats and potions are more expensive so it's mostly a net loss for us, plus you're neglecting to mention how many potions are used for progression runs. And when you get your first clear you're not just going to get 30-45 minute clears on your next run.

Danksta

Cryptical wrote: »

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

Give these complaining nascar drivers a track that is not the same shape every time. That means rng in what action the bosses perform.

Yes because RNG bosses are so much fun... /sarcasm. Having random stuff hitting you is not really fun -> maelstrom arena is the perfect example.

Having bosses that surprise you with unexpected actions means you have to pay attention instead of taking a long pull off the bong and washing it down with some of your dad’s beer from the fridge.

Pick one: Rng boss actions resulting in fights you can’t sleep through and endanger your self image of “I am gud”.... Or scripted boss mechanics that are hard to learn at first but result in you being bored.

While dynamic bosses sound a lot more fun than scripted ones, it would probably kill off competitive guilds since in many situations high score would go to the team with the easiest boss instance.

Asardes

Danksta wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

A trial lasts 30-45 minutes, meaning you will use 40-60 spell power potions, which are around 160 a piece if you buy them or about 140 if you make them yourself. Using rough maths that means between 5500-9500 gold spent if you want 100% potion up time (they last 47.5s and the cooldown is 45s). A vet trial will give you 10-12K worth of undaunted plunder, and HM another 10K from the end boss. If you vendor the trash gear you get or decon the set items and sell the tempers and style materials on guild stores you will get 1000-1500 gold, enough to cover armor repairs. So you will at least break even and potentially do 10K+ in profits. IMO the monetary rewards for vet trials are right and should stay the same.

But for us console plebs, mats and potions are more expensive so it's mostly a net loss for us, plus you're neglecting to mention how many potions are used for progression runs. And when you get your first clear you're not just going to get 30-45 minute clears on your next run.

If you are simply doing progression or farming and not score runs you can simply use dropped potions and one extra heavy attack, buff using skills and omit your lowest hitting skill for a buff one. For example sorcs can happily use power surge and Templars entropy. Or you can keep your rotation as it is and ask the DK tank to slot ingenous weapons and buff everyone for almost 40s. Progression is mostly about learning the mechanics and not squeezing that extra 3% DPS.

Vaoh

code65536 wrote: »

Cost of raiding: The cost of alchemy (esp. when compared to something like provisioning) is always been disproportionally out of line. It's not just endgame PvE that feels the cost, but also PvPers--a common complaint is that the rewards from PvP often don't cover the expenses.

During the One Tamriel PTS cycle, there was the huge outcry over the loss of BoE gear, and ZOS responded by adding Plunder. At the time, I thought that it was just a sloppy bandaid that didn't address any core issues, and I still think that now. Alleviating the cost of alchemy to make it more accessible (there are two options: either make each node yield 3-4 instead of 1 or increase the yield of crafting by 4x, so one set of flowers with max passives make 16 potions or 64 poisons instead of 4 and 16 now) would take a lot of the sting out of both PvP and endgame PvE.

---

Rewards: The polymorph next patch will be interesting. It's gated behind vAS HM, it's not a guaranteed drop, and it's BoE. Given the difficulty of vAS HM, I would expect this item to be exceedingly rare and would sell for millions at a minimum. Though, I'm not really sure an incentive like that is really the best or most healthy solution, because it's so inacessible. But it'll be there next patch...

As for titles and such, they're an (over-)abundance of titles, and the skins are nice too. I'm at the point where I have too many good titles and I'm not sure which one I want to use. Nor do I think that adding more exclusive titles would do anything, esp. considering that there already is an insanely exclusive title (Tick-Tock, which this thread's OP has). A better progression of titles would be nice, though. ZOS locked three different titles behind vHoF no-death, yet no-death is by far the hardest thing to achieve. So all three titles are more or less the same in terms of accessibility, and there is no viable intermediate title between Coadjutor and Tick-Tock.

Gear could be a good reward, but it seems that the devs have no idea what players actually want in gear. Take for example Automated Defense and Inventor's Guard--absolutely nobody wants that trash. Automated Defense makes Lunar Bastion look good in comparison. And next patch, we'll get the Asylum Restoration staff which is about on par with the Maelstrom 1HS in terms of utter uselessness and bad design. This isn't a "numbers" problem that can be fixed by tweaking the size of the bonus. This is a problem of there being a complete and utter failure by ZOS to understand how people actually play the game.

---

Why are people leaving? I agree that there has been an exodus, but why? You only talk about rewards, but the current reward structure has been there since One Tamriel, yet raiding bloomed during that and the Homestead patch.

The decline that we're in didn't start happening until Morrowind.

The best reward isn't wealth or titles. The best reward is fun.

I'm one of the people who stayed despite Morrowind, but I didn't--and still don't--like the changes that were made. Combat needs to feel fun, instead of restrictive and tiresome. On top of that (and in part because of the sustain changes), balance was poorly done, resulting in magdks and magplars no longer being viable.

The design of the new content seemed more focused on "How many ways can we trip players up?" rather than "How do we make this instance enjoyable and fun?". In vHoF, all the resource-draining mechanics on top of the heavy-handed sustain nerf were simply egregious. At least Power Leech no longer drains resources--though it took them months to throw us that one bone. There's an overuse of CCs and RNG, and most fights just feel long and dragged-out. At least they removed the second boss immunity so that fight no longer takes forever. And I say this as someone who actually likes running vHoF--I like it despite each run feeling like a draining, punishing marathon. But there are many people who don't find enough redeeming qualities in that trial to overcome the general feeling of it being the most exhausting and player-hostile trial.

And then there are the longstanding issues that never get addressed. Maw saw the introduction of sets all centered around synergies, yet the synergy system has been clunky and unreliable for ages. So much so that when ZOS devs were asked to use synergies on their live stream, they joked about its unreliability. Well, if you know that it's broken, why not devote developer resources to fixing it instead of spending those resources gutting sustain from everyone? Invisible players that require people to port or run out of render range to fix has been an issue for over a year now, but instead of that getting fixed, we just see nerfs every patch to things that make combat fun.

Well-known longstanding issues that don't get addressed, each patch filled with egregious nerfing (e.g., on the current PTS, when someone points out that one morph is underperforming, ZOS responds by nerfing the desirable morph in hopes that it will make the undesirable one attractive), and content that feels like it was designed to punish players. All of these things take away the fun. And people who leave aren't leaving because they feel like potions are too expensive or that the raiding is not a viable path to becoming a multimillionaire--they leave because they simply stopped having fun, particularly after Morrowind.

^^^ 100% agree

Vaoh

Console had it especially bad.

A situation arose where if you had gotten into raiding early, you would have gathered your BiS Maelstrom weapons before the loot tables became polluted with weak traits and became rich off of BoE gold jewelry/gear. All others who came after faced the impossibly difficult Maelstrom grind and insane prices of pots/gold mats without a way to profit off of running trials. It was always a huge net gold loss since then (still is ).

A least on console, where prices are much higher than on PC for just about everything, price alone causes Vet trials to become inaccessible to a huge amount of players since they can't afford the potions for progression runs. Even I struggle with this, and opt to use trash pots+Power Surge on my Magicka Sorcerer instead of wasting my precious Spell Pots. Unless I'm in a particularly resource-straining situation, or I'm in a score run, I often won't use any crafted spell pots.

code65536

On the topic of making the instances fun instead of tedious, let's look at the new trial on the PTS.

There are sentries that spawn at random locations that give the boss or one of the mini-bosses complete damage immunity. There is no cue of them spawning--sometimes someone will spot them early, but a lot of times we don't know that one is up until we see the boss no longer taking damage. And they spawn very frequently. The sentry would come up, we'd run away from the boss to the sentry to kill it, run back to the boss, get a couple of rotations in, and a new sentry would be up again. It felt like we were spending half our time just running back and forth between the boss and the new sentries and then killing the sentries. This is extremely tedious, and we sent ZOS direct feedback about this during the first week of PTS.

If you choose to fight the mini-bosses with the main boss, the mini-bosses have 10 million health. When they reach 0 health, they don't die--they simply deactivate for a period of time. The mini-bosses enrage, so they must be deactivated and ignoring them is not an option. The problem is, they deactivate for just 30 seconds. You're burning through 10 million health. On targets that teleport around randomly (so they are often not stacked for AoE). Only to get a mere 30s of reprieve. We gave ZOS feedback that this is ridiculous. Even if the mini-bosses didn't teleport all over the place and could be held in AoE most of the time, the 30s deactivation is laughably short. Their random teleports out of AoE is salt on the wound.

Yet, none of these two issues were addressed in Monday's PTS patch.

If vAS hits Live in its current state, expect the raiding population to take another hit.

Wifeaggro13

code65536 wrote: »

On the topic of making the instances fun instead of tedious, let's look at the new trial on the PTS.

There are sentries that spawn at random locations that give the boss or one of the mini-bosses complete damage immunity. There is no cue of them spawning--sometimes someone will spot them early, but a lot of times we don't know that one is up until we see the boss no longer taking damage. And they spawn very frequently. The sentry would come up, we'd run away from the boss to the sentry to kill it, run back to the boss, get a couple of rotations in, and a new sentry would be up again. It felt like we were spending half our time just running back and forth between the boss and the new sentries and then killing the sentries. This is extremely tedious, and we sent ZOS direct feedback about this during the first week of PTS.

If you choose to fight the mini-bosses with the main boss, the mini-bosses have 10 million health. When they reach 0 health, they don't die--they simply deactivate for a period of time. The mini-bosses enrage, so they must be deactivated and ignoring them is not an option. The problem is, they deactivate for just 30 seconds. You're burning through 10 million health. On targets that teleport around randomly (so they are often not stacked for AoE). Only to get a mere 30s of reprieve. We gave ZOS feedback that this is ridiculous. Even if the mini-bosses didn't teleport all over the place and could be held in AoE most of the time, the 30s deactivation is laughably short. Their random teleports out of AoE is salt on the wound.

Yet, none of these two issues were addressed in Monday's PTS patch.

If vAS hits Live in its current state, expect the raiding population to take another hit.

Thats primarily becaise they do not know how to design fun challenging content. Because at the end of the day its about how much damage you can do in the shortest amount of timein ESO design. They could learn a thing or two from 2008 EQ 2 raid mechanics. Unfortunately i dont think these guys are capable of implementation of more advanced mechanics and stay true to their action combat ideals.

Sotha_Sil

@Love Wizard

From today's article, here is your reply

"Runeboxes are truly rare drops that are at the same time tradeable (not bind-on-pickup) and were the result of player feedback," says Lambert. “With the introduction of these rare rewards, we're addressing a long-standing request by giving veteran Trial players something unique that can be traded."


https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/26215?Clockwork-City-%E2%80%93-Introducing-the-Asylum-Sanctorium

So I guess they consider, this is it.

Amun93

code65536 wrote: »

On the topic of making the instances fun instead of tedious, let's look at the new trial on the PTS.

There are sentries that spawn at random locations that give the boss or one of the mini-bosses complete damage immunity. There is no cue of them spawning--sometimes someone will spot them early, but a lot of times we don't know that one is up until we see the boss no longer taking damage. And they spawn very frequently. The sentry would come up, we'd run away from the boss to the sentry to kill it, run back to the boss, get a couple of rotations in, and a new sentry would be up again. It felt like we were spending half our time just running back and forth between the boss and the new sentries and then killing the sentries. This is extremely tedious, and we sent ZOS direct feedback about this during the first week of PTS.

If you choose to fight the mini-bosses with the main boss, the mini-bosses have 10 million health. When they reach 0 health, they don't die--they simply deactivate for a period of time. The mini-bosses enrage, so they must be deactivated and ignoring them is not an option. The problem is, they deactivate for just 30 seconds. You're burning through 10 million health. On targets that teleport around randomly (so they are often not stacked for AoE). Only to get a mere 30s of reprieve. We gave ZOS feedback that this is ridiculous. Even if the mini-bosses didn't teleport all over the place and could be held in AoE most of the time, the 30s deactivation is laughably short. Their random teleports out of AoE is salt on the wound.

Yet, none of these two issues were addressed in Monday's PTS patch.

If vAS hits Live in its current state, expect the raiding population to take another hit.

Code, you hint at an underlying issue for vASS without actually fully commenting on the issue itself. The main issue imo with vASS, what my guild has dubbed the trial, is that it is redundant to the very core of the trial. The issue stems from the early brainstorming for the trial and how to execute those ideas. The concept of fighting all 3 bosses at the same time for 75% of the fight is fundamentally flawed because it dictates that EACH boss is limited on the number of mechanics and the complexity of those mechanics. Currently, each boss only has 3 or 4 mechanics and they are pretty straightforward and simple because there is a restriction to the number of concurrent mechanics that you can have occur at the same time. This leads to the bosses having extremely repetitive attack patterns and means that the fight is pretty much static until you hit execute and then it slightly changes. Coupled with the length of the fights, this leads to a very boring trial.

SwimsWithMemes

I'd like to see "legendary" incentives on vet trial - on vtrials, you can get a random consumable (BoP?) which can be activated from your inventory. It applies to either a woodworking, blacksmithing, clothing or jewelry item, plopping it up to Legendary and letting you rename it (if it's already legendary)

This would also work on jewelry, so people who run trials actually have an incentive - they can use legendary quality jewels without relying on Golden Vendor.

dsalter

My cure for the whole catch 22 of the raid scaling is nerf it slightly, add a new hardcore setting (master?), make the new setting change the following things:

Resurrection takes 10 times longer and players can no longer self res.
[Longer down time on deaths opens up more punishment for slip ups and isn't so easily picked up and carried on]

When a boss focuses a tank, they slowly build up "Fear" which slowly over time (1% every 8 seconds?) increases the amount of damage the tank takes from the boss which stacks until not directly hit by the boss for 15 seconds.
[This opens up a harder tanking mode for the extra challenge the masochists will love/hate]

Healers that heal other players will slowly over time build up a damage done debuff stacking over time (1% every 6 seconds?) for 15 seconds.
[This will open up old school style healer options or encourage a raid to juggle healing back and forward]

Players who deal high damage over time will receive a stacking over time debuff that lowers outgoing healing done (1% every 6 seconds?) for 15 seconds.
[This will open up older school damage dealers options where healing others was considered an act of desperation but still allows them to self sustain their health which also opens up more self healing focused damage dealing routes]

Raids can only be completed once every 3 days per character.

[This i feel will encourage scheduled raid teams rather than grabbing whoever they can at the time but also allows for Alts to see some raid time]

Rewards for completing a Master difficulty raid will receive the following:

One random gold jewelry from the raids sets that is Bind on Equip.

One unique furniture drop out of the eight possible drops from that raid.

20k gold. [This will likely be used to cover costs of setting up for the raid]

A low chance of dropping one of six unique mounts based on the raid that the reward comes from. [This will give incentive to try get the mount from harder runs as well as a sort of "gold star" to show off]

A very low chance at dropping a whole crafting motif that is BoE for a motif related to the raid (Morrowind based ones from Morrowind based raids for example)
[This allows for a low chance high reward encouraging repeat runs]

Completing a leader board run, at the end of the week the winning top raid gets:

A title that makes the players "above head" text (where the title is also seen) to shine.
[this allows other players to see the weekly accomplishment]

A costume that functions similar to the Emperor costume from Cyrodiil

A bag that contains 1 of each gold crafting material.
[This will encourage aiming for weekly completes]

Horowonnoe

dsalter wrote: »

My cure for the whole catch 22 of the raid scaling is nerf it slightly, add a new hardcore setting (master?), make the new setting change the following things:

Resurrection takes 10 times longer and players can no longer self res.
[Longer down time on deaths opens up more punishment for slip ups and isn't so easily picked up and carried on]

When a boss focuses a tank, they slowly build up "Fear" which slowly over time (1% every 8 seconds?) increases the amount of damage the tank takes from the boss which stacks until not directly hit by the boss for 15 seconds.
[This opens up a harder tanking mode for the extra challenge the masochists will love/hate]

Healers that heal other players will slowly over time build up a damage done debuff stacking over time (1% every 6 seconds?) for 15 seconds.
[This will open up old school style healer options or encourage a raid to juggle healing back and forward]

Players who deal high damage over time will receive a stacking over time debuff that lowers outgoing healing done (1% every 6 seconds?) for 15 seconds.
[This will open up older school damage dealers options where healing others was considered an act of desperation but still allows them to self sustain their health which also opens up more self healing focused damage dealing routes]

Raids can only be completed once every 3 days per character.

[This i feel will encourage scheduled raid teams rather than grabbing whoever they can at the time but also allows for Alts to see some raid time]

Rewards for completing a Master difficulty raid will receive the following:

One random gold jewelry from the raids sets that is Bind on Equip.

One unique furniture drop out of the eight possible drops from that raid.

20k gold. [This will likely be used to cover costs of setting up for the raid]

A low chance of dropping one of six unique mounts based on the raid that the reward comes from. [This will give incentive to try get the mount from harder runs as well as a sort of "gold star" to show off]

A very low chance at dropping a whole crafting motif that is BoE for a motif related to the raid (Morrowind based ones from Morrowind based raids for example)
[This allows for a low chance high reward encouraging repeat runs]

Completing a leader board run, at the end of the week the winning top raid gets:

A title that makes the players "above head" text (where the title is also seen) to shine.
[this allows other players to see the weekly accomplishment]

A costume that functions similar to the Emperor costume from Cyrodiil

A bag that contains 1 of each gold crafting material.
[This will encourage aiming for weekly completes]

um... how about no?

DisgracefulMind

When they added BoE items and gold jewelry to be sold, I've never seen raiding so active in ESO. People were constantly running raids, searching for groups, making new guilds, etc. ZoS removed that and it drove a knife deep into end-game raiding. They NEED to add an incentive again. It would help save this community a lot ):

dsalter

Horowonnoe wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

My cure for the whole catch 22 of the raid scaling is nerf it slightly, add a new hardcore setting (master?), make the new setting change the following things:

Resurrection takes 10 times longer and players can no longer self res.
[Longer down time on deaths opens up more punishment for slip ups and isn't so easily picked up and carried on]

When a boss focuses a tank, they slowly build up "Fear" which slowly over time (1% every 8 seconds?) increases the amount of damage the tank takes from the boss which stacks until not directly hit by the boss for 15 seconds.
[This opens up a harder tanking mode for the extra challenge the masochists will love/hate]

Healers that heal other players will slowly over time build up a damage done debuff stacking over time (1% every 6 seconds?) for 15 seconds.
[This will open up old school style healer options or encourage a raid to juggle healing back and forward]

Players who deal high damage over time will receive a stacking over time debuff that lowers outgoing healing done (1% every 6 seconds?) for 15 seconds.
[This will open up older school damage dealers options where healing others was considered an act of desperation but still allows them to self sustain their health which also opens up more self healing focused damage dealing routes]

Raids can only be completed once every 3 days per character.

[This i feel will encourage scheduled raid teams rather than grabbing whoever they can at the time but also allows for Alts to see some raid time]

Rewards for completing a Master difficulty raid will receive the following:

One random gold jewelry from the raids sets that is Bind on Equip.

One unique furniture drop out of the eight possible drops from that raid.

20k gold. [This will likely be used to cover costs of setting up for the raid]

A low chance of dropping one of six unique mounts based on the raid that the reward comes from. [This will give incentive to try get the mount from harder runs as well as a sort of "gold star" to show off]

A very low chance at dropping a whole crafting motif that is BoE for a motif related to the raid (Morrowind based ones from Morrowind based raids for example)
[This allows for a low chance high reward encouraging repeat runs]

Completing a leader board run, at the end of the week the winning top raid gets:

A title that makes the players "above head" text (where the title is also seen) to shine.
[this allows other players to see the weekly accomplishment]

A costume that functions similar to the Emperor costume from Cyrodiil

A bag that contains 1 of each gold crafting material.
[This will encourage aiming for weekly completes]

um... how about no?

yes your argument and thought of reply is so staggering it really changes my opinion.

Destruent

dsalter wrote: »

Horowonnoe wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

My cure for the whole catch 22 of the raid scaling is nerf it slightly, add a new hardcore setting (master?), make the new setting change the following things:

Resurrection takes 10 times longer and players can no longer self res.
[Longer down time on deaths opens up more punishment for slip ups and isn't so easily picked up and carried on]

When a boss focuses a tank, they slowly build up "Fear" which slowly over time (1% every 8 seconds?) increases the amount of damage the tank takes from the boss which stacks until not directly hit by the boss for 15 seconds.
[This opens up a harder tanking mode for the extra challenge the masochists will love/hate]

Healers that heal other players will slowly over time build up a damage done debuff stacking over time (1% every 6 seconds?) for 15 seconds.
[This will open up old school style healer options or encourage a raid to juggle healing back and forward]

Players who deal high damage over time will receive a stacking over time debuff that lowers outgoing healing done (1% every 6 seconds?) for 15 seconds.
[This will open up older school damage dealers options where healing others was considered an act of desperation but still allows them to self sustain their health which also opens up more self healing focused damage dealing routes]

Raids can only be completed once every 3 days per character.

[This i feel will encourage scheduled raid teams rather than grabbing whoever they can at the time but also allows for Alts to see some raid time]

Rewards for completing a Master difficulty raid will receive the following:

One random gold jewelry from the raids sets that is Bind on Equip.

One unique furniture drop out of the eight possible drops from that raid.

20k gold. [This will likely be used to cover costs of setting up for the raid]

A low chance of dropping one of six unique mounts based on the raid that the reward comes from. [This will give incentive to try get the mount from harder runs as well as a sort of "gold star" to show off]

A very low chance at dropping a whole crafting motif that is BoE for a motif related to the raid (Morrowind based ones from Morrowind based raids for example)
[This allows for a low chance high reward encouraging repeat runs]

Completing a leader board run, at the end of the week the winning top raid gets:

A title that makes the players "above head" text (where the title is also seen) to shine.
[this allows other players to see the weekly accomplishment]

A costume that functions similar to the Emperor costume from Cyrodiil

A bag that contains 1 of each gold crafting material.
[This will encourage aiming for weekly completes]

um... how about no?

yes your argument and thought of reply is so staggering it really changes my opinion.

Problem is: Noone asked for (and i doubt anyone really wants a harder difficulty...no-death/hardmode etc is hard enough imo, especially considerung bugs and all that ***) a higher difficulty and you made it a thing.
People just want the actual raidcontent and a reward from them even on lower (normal mode) difficulty. That's where raiding begins, on normal modes. If people stop doing them bc it's not worth it, noone will be doing vet-modes in the future.
From "thieves guild" until "one tamriel"-patch people were creating groups for normals and vet-trials all the time in zone chat bc you got something you need or you could sell, it felt rewarding. That is where we have to get again when we talk about rewarding raidcontent....

You didn't even tried to cover that part and that's imo the most important one...

Dubhliam

I definitely agree veteran trials need more incentive.

What I propose is not to make them farmable... there is a lot of content in ESO, and making one type of content farmable is a bad way of looking at improving gameplay.

Instead, give good incentive for quality play.

What I mean by that:

Limit Leaderboards to account, not character.
Add golden BoE overland and dungeon jewelry to leaderboard rewards.

dsalter

Destruent wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

Horowonnoe wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

My cure for the whole catch 22 of the raid scaling is nerf it slightly, add a new hardcore setting (master?), make the new setting change the following things:

Resurrection takes 10 times longer and players can no longer self res.
[Longer down time on deaths opens up more punishment for slip ups and isn't so easily picked up and carried on]

When a boss focuses a tank, they slowly build up "Fear" which slowly over time (1% every 8 seconds?) increases the amount of damage the tank takes from the boss which stacks until not directly hit by the boss for 15 seconds.
[This opens up a harder tanking mode for the extra challenge the masochists will love/hate]

Healers that heal other players will slowly over time build up a damage done debuff stacking over time (1% every 6 seconds?) for 15 seconds.
[This will open up old school style healer options or encourage a raid to juggle healing back and forward]

Players who deal high damage over time will receive a stacking over time debuff that lowers outgoing healing done (1% every 6 seconds?) for 15 seconds.
[This will open up older school damage dealers options where healing others was considered an act of desperation but still allows them to self sustain their health which also opens up more self healing focused damage dealing routes]

Raids can only be completed once every 3 days per character.

[This i feel will encourage scheduled raid teams rather than grabbing whoever they can at the time but also allows for Alts to see some raid time]

Rewards for completing a Master difficulty raid will receive the following:

One random gold jewelry from the raids sets that is Bind on Equip.

One unique furniture drop out of the eight possible drops from that raid.

20k gold. [This will likely be used to cover costs of setting up for the raid]

A low chance of dropping one of six unique mounts based on the raid that the reward comes from. [This will give incentive to try get the mount from harder runs as well as a sort of "gold star" to show off]

A very low chance at dropping a whole crafting motif that is BoE for a motif related to the raid (Morrowind based ones from Morrowind based raids for example)
[This allows for a low chance high reward encouraging repeat runs]

Completing a leader board run, at the end of the week the winning top raid gets:

A title that makes the players "above head" text (where the title is also seen) to shine.
[this allows other players to see the weekly accomplishment]

A costume that functions similar to the Emperor costume from Cyrodiil

A bag that contains 1 of each gold crafting material.
[This will encourage aiming for weekly completes]

um... how about no?

yes your argument and thought of reply is so staggering it really changes my opinion.

Problem is: Noone asked for (and i doubt anyone really wants a harder difficulty...no-death/hardmode etc is hard enough imo, especially considerung bugs and all that ***) a higher difficulty and you made it a thing.
People just want the actual raidcontent and a reward from them even on lower (normal mode) difficulty. That's where raiding begins, on normal modes. If people stop doing them bc it's not worth it, noone will be doing vet-modes in the future.
From "thieves guild" until "one tamriel"-patch people were creating groups for normals and vet-trials all the time in zone chat bc you got something you need or you could sell, it felt rewarding. That is where we have to get again when we talk about rewarding raidcontent....

You didn't even tried to cover that part and that's imo the most important one...

many people were unable to even get to the end of vet raids, people who do complete vet raids complain it was kind of boring, so i opened up a possible middle ground, weaken vet raids alittle for the public who arent overkill hard raiders like hordor, made a new wall to climb that is far more difficult.

from personal experience most only do the hardest content for the challenge and bragging rights, not gear, after all what good is even stronger gear for something thats considered the hardest? to grind for the same gear over and over making it easier?
thats now how hardcore raiders work. they want things to show off, they like being seen as completionists, they love the challenge not the gear.

this is where the cosmetic focused rewards from completing the even harder mode comes in, it satisfies the bragging rights.

old raid difficulties are still valid for gear, slightly more accessible vet completions, the people getting bored of easy content have a real challenge to brag about when finishing it, and weekly allows them to repeatedly keep bragging about it.

so regarding rewarding raid content? i'm pretty sure i covered this.

SwimsWithMemes

@dsalter , there's already an easier version - normal trials. If they are too easy, there's nMoL and nHoF. If you want harder versions, aim for No Death HMs.


I would love to see a return of sellable good loot. Maybe not gold loot (to keep people running trials) but purple jewels / other items should definitely be sellable.

Or split the middle ground - the "multi trial" sets (VO, IA, EY) are BoP and the trash sets are sellable this let's some people use almost BiS (Mending Mage, Quick Serpent) if they primarily play other content.)