Endgame raiding incentives

Mureel

@Love Wizard Also, I am sorry for quasi hijacking your post. I do agree there should be an incentive for end game raiding - but said incentive should be such that it inspires more people to commit to end game raiding.

I adore ADORE raiding- I have to quit the game every so often because I get into raiding so hard - as a leader, that as also a Mom and business owner, I have to pull back and hope those I've trained will keep on.

However: what I love most is the joy people get out of completing things the first time or getting better scores, deciding to try new builds or roles in our raids and that is amazing.

For me: other than VHoF HM; (and this is literally down to timing on my end, my guild clears vhof HM once a week at least, but I'm busy at those times a lot, hence my going back to NA - so I can still raid!) I've done everything in game on every geared character I have, and I don't feel the need personally to have the top score.


I feel the need to encourage more raiding, teaching Raid discipline, and watching people progress and feel happy is my jam.

So I do agree with you and please accept my apologies for kinda going off topic.

Thanks for all the builds and help over the years.

Artis

Love Wizard wrote: »

You get rewarded with plunder for every boss, and the lastboss will reward you with a piece of legendary jewerly, and if done on hardmode, two alongside with the 10k item drop that can be vendored. In other news, for the magicka people atleast, buying spellpower potions, negates all profit you will actually make, and puts you abouts dead even, sometimes a loss, and to me this is absolutely absurd\.

Mmm I feel like the math is off here. Can you say how long it takes for you to finish a trial just to make sure?

Cause here's a sample calculation for PC NA and my group (finishing vHoF in about 1 hour if we don't try new strats). 1h = 60 mins= 3660 seconds. A potion cooldown is 45 seconds so IF you fight all the time (which you don't) its' 3600/45= 80 potions. An average spell pot price is 135gold. 80*135=10800 gold. You get 15000+10000=25000 for the first hard mode of the week and 15000 just in plunder for any other run that week. Both of these numbers are greater than 10800. And you don't even fight all the time - there's time spent to talk, run between fights. So technically you do make profit in the end.

Izaki wrote: »

I say Alchemy Satchels and Gold mats. Instead of making the Undaunted plunder be just gold, make that a currency that is exchangable for mats. I definitely think that there should be a title for top leaderboards and that leaderboard rewards should be much better.

Indeed, what if there was a currency that you could sell your rewards for and then use that currency to buy mats.. Hmm.. What if we called it gold to imitate money... Oh wait. There is that currency already. And it's called gold. Sell plunder, exchange the currency you got for it for the mats of your choice at any guild trader.

code65536 wrote: »

Cost of raiding: The cost of alchemy (esp. when compared to something like provisioning) is always been disproportionally out of line. It's not just endgame PvE that feels the cost, but also PvPers--a common complaint is that the rewards from PvP often don't cover the expenses.

During the One Tamriel PTS cycle, there was the huge outcry over the loss of BoE gear, and ZOS responded by adding Plunder. At the time, I thought that it was just a sloppy bandaid that didn't address any core issues, and I still think that now. Alleviating the cost of alchemy to make it more accessible (there are two options: either make each node yield 3-4 instead of 1 or increase the yield of crafting by 4x, so one set of flowers with max passives make 16 potions or 64 poisons instead of 4 and 16 now) would take a lot of the sting out of both PvP and endgame PvE.

I think the issue is deeper. The game as a whole feels grindy. That's why we all feel that rewards aren't sufficient. Because yes, you can't really get rich unless you really farm/grind specifically gold or items that sell, or flip items for profit. Constantly. Feels worse than farm imo.

code65536 wrote: »

Gear could be a good reward, but it seems that the devs have no idea what players actually want in gear. Take for example Automated Defense and Inventor's Guard--absolutely nobody wants that trash. Automated Defense makes Lunar Bastion look good in comparison. And next patch, we'll get the Asylum Restoration staff which is about on par with the Maelstrom 1HS in terms of utter uselessness and bad design. This isn't a "numbers" problem that can be fixed by tweaking the size of the bonus. This is a problem of there being a complete and utter failure by ZOS to understand how people actually play the game..

Ahahaha. code for Nobel Prize in literature 2018. This is a masterpiece.

But seriously though, who knows? Maybe those sets are good for newer guilds and help progressing (taking less damage is a path of less risk but might be more reliable?), or maybe even you don't underestimate them and those 5pc effects could help ignore certain mechanics and maximize DPS as a result. Just a thought not based on anything.

code65536 wrote: »

Why are people leaving? I agree that there has been an exodus, but why? You only talk about rewards, but the current reward structure has been there since One Tamriel, yet raiding bloomed during that and the Homestead patch.

The decline that we're in didn't start happening until Morrowind.

The best reward isn't wealth or titles. The best reward is fun.

I'm one of the people who stayed despite Morrowind, but I didn't--and still don't--like the changes that were made. Combat needs to feel fun, instead of restrictive and tiresome. On top of that (and in part because of the sustain changes), balance was poorly done, resulting in magdks and magplars no longer being viable.

The design of the new content seemed more focused on "How many ways can we trip players up?" rather than "How do we make this instance enjoyable and fun?". In vHoF, all the resource-draining mechanics on top of the heavy-handed sustain nerf were simply egregious. At least Power Leech no longer drains resources--though it took them months to throw us that one bone. There's an overuse of CCs and RNG, and most fights just feel long and dragged-out. At least they removed the second boss immunity so that fight no longer takes forever. And I say this as someone who actually likes running vHoF--I like it despite each run feeling like a draining, punishing marathon. But there are many people who don't find enough redeeming qualities in that trial to overcome the general feeling of it being the most exhausting and player-hostile trial.

And then there are the longstanding issues that never get addressed. Maw saw the introduction of sets all centered around synergies, yet the synergy system has been clunky and unreliable for ages. So much so that when ZOS devs were asked to use synergies on their live stream, they joked about its unreliability. Well, if you know that it's broken, why not devote developer resources to fixing it instead of spending those resources gutting sustain from everyone? Invisible players that require people to port or run out of render range to fix has been an issue for over a year now, but instead of that getting fixed, we just see nerfs every patch to things that make combat fun.

Well-known longstanding issues that don't get addressed, each patch filled with egregious nerfing (e.g., on the current PTS, when someone points out that one morph is underperforming, ZOS responds by nerfing the desirable morph in hopes that it will make the undesirable one attractive), and content that feels like it was designed to punish players. All of these things take away the fun. And people who leave aren't leaving because they feel like potions are too expensive or that the raiding is not a viable path to becoming a multimillionaire--they leave because they simply stopped having fun, particularly after Morrowind.

Well, yeah we all know what happened in morrowind. Sustain changes. And adapting is as much as using hp+resource+regen drinks and maybe removing 1 dot from a rotation. But yeah, no one likes becoming weaker relative to old content. And balance is meh, too. It's pretty sad seeing how much lower mDPS is compared to what stamina can get. Not talking about single target even, but overall - the amount of adds is just not enough to show that magicka has higher aoe as everyone keeps saying. Maybe they do for a few secs while the destro ulti is active? Otherwise idk, doesn't seem so. Was just watching my group % dps in this 4man dungeon I ran with a stamina DPS yesterday..

Regarding fun is the best reward.. Idk, it seems like progression is a part of that fun for people. For reals, do you think a lot of dungeons would be ran if they didn't drop anything at all? Like, let's say all gear is crafted. That would work with a completely different audience and who knows if the revenue would be enough to keep the game afloat.

But in general yes everything is like you said. And FFS FIX SYNERGIES!! They are fun, I like using abilities I wouldn't have if I wasn't grouped with that player. Hm, even before release do you remember like they were talking about it? Like if you're a warrior grouped with mage, he can cast fire and you can use synergy to kick fireballs towards the enemies or something. Never added that -.- Synergies are cool and fun. Not only they should be rewarding, but yes - they should be reliable. Now if I'm trying to use it I can ruin my rotation completely instead of weaving instead of one of the skills my character sometimes just stops because that synergy button that just popped a second ago is no longer active.

Raghul wrote: »

I miss those days of naxxramas and ulduar, best raiding time of my life, and if you did all bosses in ulduar on HM you unlocked the true endboss Algalon the Observer and you would get an amazing title from defeating him.
If i remember correctly you could get like very nice unique weapons from certain bosses, even mounts, special recipes/ designs to craft special weapons and gear etc, you would also get tokens wich could be turned in for a special gearset with unique bonusses specific to your class, dam i miss those days

Mhm, giving cool stuff for the hardest content you can't get otherwise does make it feel more rewarding. Thankfully, looks like ZOS understood that and there are some weapons dropping in Vet HM. Not as deep as unlocking a whole new fight (= adding fun and fun is the best reward as said above), but still something.


Idk @FakeFox vHOF is pretty fun. The only annoying random stuff is getting more than 1 bot at a time on the 4th boss.

Motherball wrote: »

Maybe the reason nobody wants to raid is the whiney elitist checklists and the boring repetitive hoop-jumping required to actually get in the door. You honestly only have yourselves to blame with your voracious appetites and constant need to be statistically miles ahead of everyone else with piles of costumes you never use. You complain about not having anyone to raid with, but wouldn't tolerate anyone with less than perfect stats and build, sounds like more of a personal issue to me.

Let's be honest, this paragraph is a part of the problem, too. The gap is widening between end-game players and new players who just joined the game/leveled up. Remember how thing where in 2014 when leaderboards would always be full every week? These days you have to be good enough to join, so people who are motivated enough to get there by themselves find groups and others think it's just not within their reach and don't bother. Like not even that, if a person is already in a guild it doesn't mean anything. If a core group of that guild has openings that person will still compete with people from other guilds who are friends with this group's members and they'd rather take a person from outside then the most promising guild mate out of those who applied.

p.s. the story about Jump is awesome.

Stania

Motherball wrote: »

Sitting on mountains of gold, best gear in the game, and still complaining that you dont get enough rewards from being able to play parts of the game that 90% of the players will never see. At what point does playing the content become its own reward?

Most of the playerbase don't look at the leaderboards, and don't care who can complete vet trials (too busy having fun on their own ways), so "elites" have to find a more colorful way to shove in our faces how "awesomesauce" they are (as if current rewards weren't exclusive enough), in the shape of weapons that give them a bigger advantage or cosmetic items to make them stand out even more (specially after the release of paid skins).

That nice feeling for completing what most people can't isn't enough it seems.

Mureel

Stania wrote: »

Motherball wrote: »

Sitting on mountains of gold, best gear in the game, and still complaining that you dont get enough rewards from being able to play parts of the game that 90% of the players will never see. At what point does playing the content become its own reward?

Most of the playerbase don't look at the leaderboards, and don't care who can complete vet trials (too busy having fun on their own ways), so "elites" have to find a more colorful way to shove in our faces how "awesomesauce" they are (as if current rewards weren't exclusive enough), in the shape of weapons that give them a bigger advantage or cosmetic items to make them stand out even more (specially after the release of paid skins).

That nice feeling for completing what most people can't isn't enough it seems.

See now that's just too salty.

Who is anyone to determine how anyone else should be happy in a game?

I have all skins and wear none. I have all titles and prefer Librarian because it's funny. Or Volunteer. Love that one too.

One person/group determining how other people should have fun on a game is not the way forward.

Inclusive over exclusive is, in my humble opinion.

Destyran

They made the latest raid have different titles from normal to speed run no death hard mode. It’s to hard for casuals and most can’t play in the cancer endgame player circles. Because you have to be extra dead inside. Long story short
99.999999% of the game is so easy you could drop your controller and clear content. The other 0.000001% is so hard you need a perfect rotation and connection and chemistry between 12 people. There is no inbetween. And when most casuals think they have mastered the art of face rolling content and try to jump to end game only to find out the difference in skill level required and the thickness of your skin in the cancer end game they give up. Zoe sucks at game design trying to make casual content to casual and hardcore content too hardcore

Shadzilla

@Love Wizard I agree with title incentives for the top weekly spots, and would like to double the plunder. I also think the sets dropped in end game content should be better than they currently are. For example, a tier higher in stats compared to crafted sets. It really does not make a ton of sense to me on how half of the gear used in bis setups are obtained with gold. The market is already so flooded with gold, it means nothing anymore. End game content should reward its players with solid gear that is noticeably better than crafted counterparts...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373966/bis-setups-for-pve-and-pvp-crafted-sets#latest

Mureel

Shadzilla wrote: »

@Love Wizard I agree with title incentives for the top weekly spots, and would like to double the plunder. I also think the sets dropped in end game content should be better than they currently are. For example, a tier higher in stats compared to crafted sets. It really does not make a ton of sense to me on how half of the gear used in bis setups are obtained with gold. The market is already so flooded with gold, it means nothing anymore. End game content should reward its players with solid gear that is noticeably better than crafted counterparts...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373966/bis-setups-for-pve-and-pvp-crafted-sets#latest

Actually; it does make sense. This way, people can at least start to run competitively. If 0% of gear needed to hit (inflated) dps targets was crafted; the raiding community would be even smaller still.

Surely you can see that.

Mureel

Destyran wrote: »

They made the latest raid have different titles from normal to speed run no death hard mode. It’s to hard for casuals and most can’t play in the cancer endgame player circles. Because you have to be extra dead inside. Long story short
99.999999% of the game is so easy you could drop your controller and clear content. The other 0.000001% is so hard you need a perfect rotation and connection and chemistry between 12 people. There is no inbetween. And when most casuals think they have mastered the art of face rolling content and try to jump to end game only to find out the difference in skill level required and the thickness of your skin in the cancer end game they give up. Zoe sucks at game design trying to make casual content to casual and hardcore content too hardcore

It's not all cancer, I promise you that. You could consider starting your own non cancer raid guild if you know the basics from raids.

Shadzilla

Mureel wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

@Love Wizard I agree with title incentives for the top weekly spots, and would like to double the plunder. I also think the sets dropped in end game content should be better than they currently are. For example, a tier higher in stats compared to crafted sets. It really does not make a ton of sense to me on how half of the gear used in bis setups are obtained with gold. The market is already so flooded with gold, it means nothing anymore. End game content should reward its players with solid gear that is noticeably better than crafted counterparts...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373966/bis-setups-for-pve-and-pvp-crafted-sets#latest

Actually; it does make sense. This way, people can at least start to run competitively. If 0% of hear needed to hit dps targets was crafted; the raiding community would be even smaller still.

Surely you can see that.

I am not saying the gear should be massive in differences, I am saying crafted gear should be a stepping stone until you get the preferred dropped gear from end game content. Being able to get some of the best gear possible from just crafting or a guild store takes away many more people from trials....

Tasear

Mureel wrote: »

AtraisMachina wrote: »

Yea its pretty impossible to get enough players with the capability to beat trials these days. Havent raided legit in 2 or 3 weeks.. idrc what they do but id like to be able to raid without getting 12 fps.

And how much of that is due to raid leader asking for all DDs to have 35k+ so people don't even sign up for raid?

It's a precautionary mesure. It's design in many places that you will fail other wise, because humans are prone to human error. Though mind you 25k is cut off on average while the lowest is 17k.

Medakon

I stopped reading at:

Love Wizard wrote: »

Thinking pushing new content will do the trick is sadly not gonna work, but you need to fix what is currently broken first and foremost.

Of course they should push content, or they end up like a galaxy far far away, where they spend two years with no content update and only focus on class balance and fix bugs.

Asking them to stop making content, is like asking them to shut down the game servers. Anyways you must be new here, top leaderbord gets a random gift in the mail at the end of the week, and they don't deserve more. If you ask me, they should remove the leaderbord as it is toxic, and bring all the toxicity to the PvE player base. You died once? or got to low dps? undergeared? or low champion points? then you cant come along, because we want good score. This is what broke the game. And for you information, trail sets was tradeable before, and you could sell it to other players. It was stupid, and its good they removed this.

Mureel

Shadzilla wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

@Love Wizard I agree with title incentives for the top weekly spots, and would like to double the plunder. I also think the sets dropped in end game content should be better than they currently are. For example, a tier higher in stats compared to crafted sets. It really does not make a ton of sense to me on how half of the gear used in bis setups are obtained with gold. The market is already so flooded with gold, it means nothing anymore. End game content should reward its players with solid gear that is noticeably better than crafted counterparts...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373966/bis-setups-for-pve-and-pvp-crafted-sets#latest

Actually; it does make sense. This way, people can at least start to run competitively. If 0% of hear needed to hit dps targets was crafted; the raiding community would be even smaller still.

Surely you can see that.

I am not saying the gear should be massive in differences, I am saying crafted gear should be a stepping stone until you get the preferred dropped gear from end game content. Being able to get some of the best gear possible from just crafting or a guild store takes away many more people from trials....

Except it is already a stepping stone... it's not the best, it's together with a BIS set, or 2 actually, the best. Maybe. Depending on role/class.

Mureel

Tasear wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

AtraisMachina wrote: »

Yea its pretty impossible to get enough players with the capability to beat trials these days. Havent raided legit in 2 or 3 weeks.. idrc what they do but id like to be able to raid without getting 12 fps.

And how much of that is due to raid leader asking for all DDs to have 35k+ so people don't even sign up for raid?

It's a precautionary mesure. It's design in many places that you will fail other wise, because humans are prone to human error. Though mind you 25k is cut off on average while the lowest is 17k.

If you take so many precautions that you can't even raid...well, I'll leave the rest to you ;-)

code65536

Shadzilla wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

@Love Wizard I agree with title incentives for the top weekly spots, and would like to double the plunder. I also think the sets dropped in end game content should be better than they currently are. For example, a tier higher in stats compared to crafted sets. It really does not make a ton of sense to me on how half of the gear used in bis setups are obtained with gold. The market is already so flooded with gold, it means nothing anymore. End game content should reward its players with solid gear that is noticeably better than crafted counterparts...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373966/bis-setups-for-pve-and-pvp-crafted-sets#latest

Actually; it does make sense. This way, people can at least start to run competitively. If 0% of hear needed to hit dps targets was crafted; the raiding community would be even smaller still.

Surely you can see that.

I am not saying the gear should be massive in differences, I am saying crafted gear should be a stepping stone until you get the preferred dropped gear from end game content. Being able to get some of the best gear possible from just crafting or a guild store takes away many more people from trials....

Um. Every BiS setup includes a Minor Slayer set, obtainable only from trials. The other set to be paired with the Slayer set can't be a trial set because running two Minor Slayer sets is a waste. So you're going to source one of your sets from outside trials anyway. You should know better, Shad.

(And no, TFS doesn't count because in a coordinated group, TFS is not BiS.)

MLGProPlayer

Make trial gear drops BoE. Purple/gold jewellery drops would sell for a fortune. It would make raiding highly profitable.

Maybe re-adjust gear drops so the better gear only drops on vet. That would give armour/weapons value too.

Artis

Medakon wrote: »

I
Of course they should push content, or they end up like a galaxy far far away, where they spend two years with no content update and only focus on class balance and fix bugs.

Asking them to stop making content, is like asking them to shut down the game servers. Anyways you must be new here, top leaderbord gets a random gift in the mail at the end of the week, and they don't deserve more. If you ask me, they should remove the leaderbord as it is toxic, and bring all the toxicity to the PvE player base. You died once? or got to low dps? undergeared? or low champion points? then you cant come along, because we want good score. This is what broke the game. And for you information, trail sets was tradeable before, and you could sell it to other players. It was stupid, and its good they removed this.

I disagree. Look at it from another perspective? You got good DPS? You did well and didn't die? Why shouldn't that be encouraged?

The requirements you listed meet the reality of only having 12 people in the group and only have that many players to draw from. It's a lot like dating or any other market. Supply-demand. If you can't come along with those who want to go for a good score, then you should get better or find another group. I mean, why shouldn't they be able to choose who to play with? I mean, all that removing scores will do is that instead "we want a high score" they will say "we don't have all night and want to do it as fast and painless as possible". The score is just reflecting how fast and well the trial was done. It's secondary.

Regarding minor slayer, they could make some trials to give minor force there so we could combine trial sets. So far they actually feel very boring.

Wifeaggro13

Turelus wrote: »

I think the lack of interest comes from the fact the content is such a wall now.

If you're at the top and one of the best it's a breeze and you ask for more challenging content, but any up and coming guilds trying for veteran trials are then forced to meet expectations of the top guilds ability and then can't progress (as not everyone can be that good).

You can't tone down the challenge to let more groups compete though as the top players get bored due to everything being too easy again, so it's catch 22.

You also suffer the issues that as new top players rise, rather than stick with the guilds which can't compete they go to the ones that can, so all the top players get consolidated into a few guilds.

I think the idea of more appealing rewards is good and might help push some people, but I sadly just see it being the same guilds as it is now getting rewards on farm whilst other guilds don't actually get better to compete.

That could have been avoided had the done the progression properly.

code65536

Turelus wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

I say Alchemy Satchels and Gold mats. Instead of making the Undaunted plunder be just gold, make that a currency that is exchangable for mats. I definitely think that there should be a title for top leaderboards and that leaderboard rewards should be much better.

This again though doesn't solve the issue that it will still be the same old guilds getting said items every week. They need to find a way to help more guilds reach the levels to compete for a top spot before the top spot starts being a cash cow.

Otherwise it would pretty much be HODOR on EU PC reaping rewards for what to them is now little effort.

At the same time they also need to find a way to address the issue that top guilds are so good the content is becoming meaningless to them. Working out ways of closing the gaps without penalising the good players for being good and buffing the bad players for being bad.

They claim to want to close the gap between ceiling and floor. And instead gave us sustain nerfs that widened the gap. Why did sustain nerfs widen the gap? Because the better you play, the more efficiently you play, and the more efficiently you play, the fewer resources you need. If you recast a DoT too early, then you lose the damage from the previous cast and end up getting less damage from the resources spent. If you make a mistake and take an extra burst of damage, and you need to cast a shield to stay alive, that's resources that could've been used elsewhere being instead used to correct your mistake.

Yes, resources were abundant and sustain was easy prior to Morrowind. And for elite players, it meant that they had excess resources that they had no real use for--to them, it was just excess fat, and the loss of these resources did not impact them as much. For everyone else, the extra resources afforded them the room to make mistakes and lessened the impact of their inefficiencies.

If ZOS's goal was to close the gap, nerfing sustain was the exact opposite of what they needed to do. Homestead was the Golden Era, because content was accessible.

FloppyTouch

code65536 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

I say Alchemy Satchels and Gold mats. Instead of making the Undaunted plunder be just gold, make that a currency that is exchangable for mats. I definitely think that there should be a title for top leaderboards and that leaderboard rewards should be much better.

This again though doesn't solve the issue that it will still be the same old guilds getting said items every week. They need to find a way to help more guilds reach the levels to compete for a top spot before the top spot starts being a cash cow.

Otherwise it would pretty much be HODOR on EU PC reaping rewards for what to them is now little effort.

At the same time they also need to find a way to address the issue that top guilds are so good the content is becoming meaningless to them. Working out ways of closing the gaps without penalising the good players for being good and buffing the bad players for being bad.

They claim to want to close the gap between ceiling and floor. And instead gave us sustain nerfs that widened the gap. Why did sustain nerfs widen the gap? Because the better you play, the more efficiently you play, and the more efficiently you play, the fewer resources you need. If you recast a DoT too early, then you lose the damage from the previous cast and end up getting less damage from the resources spent. If you make a mistake and take an extra burst of damage, and you need to cast a shield to stay alive, that's resources that could've been used elsewhere being instead used to correct your mistake.

Yes, resources were abundant and sustain was easy prior to Morrowind. And for elite players, it meant that they had excess resources that they had no real use for--to them, it was just excess fat, and the loss of these resources did not impact them as much. For everyone else, the extra resources afforded them the room to make mistakes and lessened the impact of their inefficiencies.

If ZOS's goal was to close the gap, nerfing sustain was the exact opposite of what they needed to do. Homestead was the Golden Era, because content was accessible.

I feel like homestead was the best the game came to balance and then they just kept sh#ting on everything each update after.

Waseem

trial/dungeon items are not tradable to prevent whoever does not have the DLC/Expansion from having them
cant see that changing in the next 20 years

Shadzilla

code65536 wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Shadzilla wrote: »

@Love Wizard I agree with title incentives for the top weekly spots, and would like to double the plunder. I also think the sets dropped in end game content should be better than they currently are. For example, a tier higher in stats compared to crafted sets. It really does not make a ton of sense to me on how half of the gear used in bis setups are obtained with gold. The market is already so flooded with gold, it means nothing anymore. End game content should reward its players with solid gear that is noticeably better than crafted counterparts...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373966/bis-setups-for-pve-and-pvp-crafted-sets#latest

Actually; it does make sense. This way, people can at least start to run competitively. If 0% of hear needed to hit dps targets was crafted; the raiding community would be even smaller still.

Surely you can see that.

I am not saying the gear should be massive in differences, I am saying crafted gear should be a stepping stone until you get the preferred dropped gear from end game content. Being able to get some of the best gear possible from just crafting or a guild store takes away many more people from trials....

Um. Every BiS setup includes a Minor Slayer set, obtainable only from trials. The other set to be paired with the Slayer set can't be a trial set because running two Minor Slayer sets is a waste. So you're going to source one of your sets from outside trials anyway. You should know better, Shad.

(And no, TFS doesn't count because in a coordinated group, TFS is not BiS.)

I never said TFS is bis. My opinion is gear dropped from the end game content should outperform crafted sets... I, along with others, find it weird that crafted sets have placements in a large amount of bis builds. Not just pve, but pvp as well. I understand that ZOS has been giving minor slayer as the 3 piece bonuses on a large amount of dps gear dropped in end game content, but not all of them have that. They do not have to either, they could easily release sets next year that do not have minor slayer bonuses, that could outperform crafted sets.

As far as pvp goes... There should be a vendor with gear that is a tier above crafted - stat wise. A vendor that sells gear for a very expensive price (millions of ap per piece) that is solely focused on just pvp content. Maybe even locked behind achieving certain pvp ranks (ie. 10,20,30). Crafted gear is overpowered in this game. You can buy it for such little gold, and its extremely powerful especially in pvp. It doesn't seem right. Crafted gear should be used as a stepping stone for doing end game pvp or pve content. Once in said content, you should be upgrading to higher tier gear sets for both pve and pvp. I am not saying that crafted gear should be horrible and useless, but it should be a bit lower of caliber compared to stuff achieved at the end game level.

Agalloch

We need BOE back.

Problem solved.

Also ZOS could implement better rewards for completing some achievements of the trials ....(mount rewards for example).

Tinus_92

Turelus wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

I say Alchemy Satchels and Gold mats. Instead of making the Undaunted plunder be just gold, make that a currency that is exchangable for mats. I definitely think that there should be a title for top leaderboards and that leaderboard rewards should be much better.

This again though doesn't solve the issue that it will still be the same old guilds getting said items every week. They need to find a way to help more guilds reach the levels to compete for a top spot before the top spot starts being a cash cow.

Otherwise it would pretty much be HODOR on EU PC reaping rewards for what to them is now little effort.

At the same time they also need to find a way to address the issue that top guilds are so good the content is becoming meaningless to them. Working out ways of closing the gaps without penalising the good players for being good and buffing the bad players for being bad.

EU/PC (and I believe NA/PC also) actually do got plenty of guilds who are capable of clearing vmol. What I notice in quite a few of these groups however is that not much people are willing to train to get good at such trials after they've done an one-time completion. The constant changes to classes aren't great and motivating either. My main, a magplar dd for vet pve content, still doesn't reach its old dps numbers even remotely close compared to one tamriel & housing updates, which is really demotivating and eventually let me decide to stop going for score runs. While I'm still able to complete veteran trials easily and still do some from time to time, I'm not focussed on score runs anymore at the moment. Not everyone is able to reach 50k single target on all classes, both magicka and stamina, especially when you don't have that much time to get good with different rotations and skills.

LadyNalcarya

code65536 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

I say Alchemy Satchels and Gold mats. Instead of making the Undaunted plunder be just gold, make that a currency that is exchangable for mats. I definitely think that there should be a title for top leaderboards and that leaderboard rewards should be much better.

This again though doesn't solve the issue that it will still be the same old guilds getting said items every week. They need to find a way to help more guilds reach the levels to compete for a top spot before the top spot starts being a cash cow.

Otherwise it would pretty much be HODOR on EU PC reaping rewards for what to them is now little effort.

At the same time they also need to find a way to address the issue that top guilds are so good the content is becoming meaningless to them. Working out ways of closing the gaps without penalising the good players for being good and buffing the bad players for being bad.

They claim to want to close the gap between ceiling and floor. And instead gave us sustain nerfs that widened the gap. Why did sustain nerfs widen the gap? Because the better you play, the more efficiently you play, and the more efficiently you play, the fewer resources you need. If you recast a DoT too early, then you lose the damage from the previous cast and end up getting less damage from the resources spent. If you make a mistake and take an extra burst of damage, and you need to cast a shield to stay alive, that's resources that could've been used elsewhere being instead used to correct your mistake.

Yes, resources were abundant and sustain was easy prior to Morrowind. And for elite players, it meant that they had excess resources that they had no real use for--to them, it was just excess fat, and the loss of these resources did not impact them as much. For everyone else, the extra resources afforded them the room to make mistakes and lessened the impact of their inefficiencies.

If ZOS's goal was to close the gap, nerfing sustain was the exact opposite of what they needed to do. Homestead was the Golden Era, because content was accessible.

Well said. I absolutely agree, and yeah, Homestead raiding was great because it used to be more accessible. Nowadays its really difficult for a new team to clear vMoL/vHoF... Or even HM Crag trials. They dont have much room for mistakes, but mistakes inevitably happen during training runs. And of course, constant wipes are very discouraging. To be honest, I dont even think that Morrowind exodus would be that much of a problem if not for those sustain changes. Every gaming community needs fresh blood, simply because no one is going to play the same game forever, and its a huge problem after Morrowind.
Not to mention that heavy attack meta made many dd players quit raiding because its not fun. Yeah, in Homestead top groups had infinite sustain, but I really dont think that everything should be balanced around top groups.

BrianDavion

I definatly agree with the guy who said the best reward is having fun. if content is fun, people'll come back to do it even if they have everything.Back in SWTOR my RP guild raided. and we did pretty well at the story mode stuff. I was there every week and, admittingly am a "Lucky SOB" I tended to be geared out fast. but I was back raiding every week with my guild because we where having fun doing it. I'm not saying SWTOR had the best raid design, to be honest a biiig part of the fun was the easy going nature of my guild, (on the other hand we could afford to be easy going because the raids wheren't TOO hard)

I definatly agree with those who say one of the problems with raids in this game, is that they are designed around people running optimized builds. by not designing content around those perfect builds it allows more builds into play and allows more PEOPLE into play. not everyone wants to crunch the absolute best build etc. it's a lot of number crunching, that most people feel shouldn't be nesscary. "if X is in the game, there should be a way to make X work"

Cryptical

The economic part of it is irrelevant. Zeni didn’t make the potions cost what they do, we players did.

Farm your own ingredients, and the spell power potions are free. If the net gold level from doing a trial is at the break even point, that’s on the player.

The whole topic sounds like a whine from a nascar driver that trades paint with other cars and then complains paint is expensive. And then goes on to gripe about the track being too easy after spending time memorizing the turns to the millimeter.

@ZOS_GinaBruno please tell the dev team to stop using concrete scripted mechanics. Example:domihaus - it’s a complicated mechanic based on his attack cycle, his health level, where he is in his attack cycle at certain percentage points. Complicated, but is still perfectly predictable. Give these complaining nascar drivers a track that is not the same shape every time. That means rng in what action the bosses perform. The emotional payoff comes when we succeed after being unsure of victory, but there’s more than just memorization by rote to it. Relying on mechanics to create difficulty and expecting long term enjoyment would be like you starting from the door to Zeni building and walking blindfolded to your desk. The first couple successes would be thrilling, the next 500 would be boring because you’d learned the unchanging mechanics of the path by rote. But if you were walking through hogwarts without the blindfold, every success becomes great.

idk

As for the first point, Code explained it very well on the first page. Gear and everything else is meaningless if players do not enjoy the game. The common refrain with Morrowind was players not enjoying the game with the changes Zos brought in. Zos should make ESO combat fun again.

Problem with the second point is, being on top of the leaderboard is not challenging on day one. Be the first to clear it. Being on top of the leaderboard at the end of the quarter would be the only point any special reward should be offered.

Sotha_Sil

Cryptical wrote: »

Give these complaining nascar drivers a track that is not the same shape every time. That means rng in what action the bosses perform.

Yes because RNG bosses are so much fun... /sarcasm. Having random stuff hitting you is not really fun -> maelstrom arena is the perfect example.

Cryptical

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

Give these complaining nascar drivers a track that is not the same shape every time. That means rng in what action the bosses perform.

Yes because RNG bosses are so much fun... /sarcasm. Having random stuff hitting you is not really fun -> maelstrom arena is the perfect example.

Having bosses that surprise you with unexpected actions means you have to pay attention instead of taking a long pull off the bong and washing it down with some of your dad’s beer from the fridge.

Pick one: Rng boss actions resulting in fights you can’t sleep through and endanger your self image of “I am gud”.... Or scripted boss mechanics that are hard to learn at first but result in you being bored.

Urza1234

Cryptical wrote: »

Having bosses that surprise you with unexpected actions means you have to pay attention instead of taking a long pull off the bong and washing it down with some of your dad’s beer from the fridge.

Pick one: Rng boss actions resulting in fights you can’t sleep through and endanger your self image of “I am gud”.... Or scripted boss mechanics that are hard to learn at first but result in you being bored.

Rng is really not the answer, the player still just has to learn the boss, except then they would just have to learn each of the bosses possible actions/phases independently. It wouldnt really make boss fights more interesting, rather both more tedious to learn for the player and more tedious to design for the developer, while also introducing more potential for BS mechanic combinations with 0 counterplay.

You would also potentially lose out on characterization of bosses, because there are limited amount of mechanics available in the game and each boss would just become a mishmash of a subset of those mechanics with much more overlap with other bosses, rather than icons of pve content.