Endgame raiding incentives

Turelus

Tasear wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Jumping back ,someone tag guy in charge of dungeon design... isn't it Mike something?

Yeah it's Mike Finnigan (forums tag is @ZOS_Finn)

User not found :'(

Yeah, apparently the forums takes the ) as part of the link. It's @ZOS_Finn

Zer0oo

Endgame pve should be fun but sadly they really making it extrem hard to enjoy it:

Constant bugs that don't get fixed, terrible balance, poor performance, a extrem boring heavy attack combat meta thanks to morrowind changes, a lot of rng mechanics....

Not much left that is enjoyable aside from the challenge it may provide or reaching for top scores.

code65536

FakeFox wrote: »

It should rank accounts and not characters.

I disagree. Tanking vHoF and DPSing vHoF are two very different things, and I like that I can secure for myself separate spots on the board as both roles. Likewise for healers, melee vs. ranged DPS, etc. The cases of people farming the board with different copies of essentially the same character is quite low.

FakeFox wrote: »

And don't even get me started on gamebreaking bugs like adds spawning already empowered or random onehits from feedback.

Both bugs happened to us this weekend. In the same run, too. Sigh.

Love Wizard

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_RichLambert

Would be nice to hear your point of view.

Jade1986

Incentive for me would be nicer, more polite, and considerate people. As it stands now vet dungeons are filled with antisocial sociopathic keyboard warriors who will insult and harass you if you dont have a perfect build, or if you never did it on vet before.

Also, some token vendors would be nice so we dont have to do the same dungeon 9999999999999999 times to get the right gear.

Some costumes , or mounts, or pets, or ANYTHING would also be good. Hell! Even throw in some housing rewards! Or even the full residence! As it stands now , its just full of toxic people, the rewards are meh at best, and it really just isnt worth the stress.

Masel

Agreed. I enjoy raiding a lot in ESO, when HoF came out i was really excited. Thing is, BoP breaks it completely. There's nothing to sell in Trials anymore, it is so annoying. I dont even have a tradeguild anymore due to that reason, as i dont get a lot of things to sell and for things that sell for 2-3k i wont bother. They should make trial sets sellable again, especially with transmutation system out there is literally no point not to do that.

They need to add a system to trials that gives them greater rewards. Yeah skins and titles are cool, but once you have them and the gear you want it is kind of lackluster to even go in that trial again. I ahvent done vHoF for weeks now bc the effort doesnt justify the rewards. i got my gold jewels when it came out and now i dont have any incentive anymore. Will be the sam with vAS. I'll do it once per week maybe and veteran non-HM, for the weekly Pperfect weapon, but thats about it....

Docmandu

As long as reward != neverending gear grind.. like WoW and the likes...

Give people flashy titles, items for their house/guild hall, costumes, polymorphs, ... just not gear rating + 1.

Jade1986

Masel92 wrote: »

Agreed. I enjoy raiding a lot in ESO, when HoF came out i was really excited. Thing is, BoP breaks it completely. There's nothing to sell in Trials anymore, it is so annoying. I dont even have a tradeguild anymore due to that reason, as i dont get a lot of things to sell and for things that sell for 2-3k i wont bother. They should make trial sets sellable again, especially with transmutation system out there is literally no point not to do that.

They need to add a system to trials that gives them greater rewards. Yeah skins and titles are cool, but once you have them and the gear you want it is kind of lackluster to even go in that trial again. I ahvent done vHoF for weeks now bc the effort doesnt justify the rewards. i got my gold jewels when it came out and now i dont have any incentive anymore. Will be the sam with vAS. I'll do it once per week maybe and veteran non-HM, for the weekly Pperfect weapon, but thats about it....

Why in gods name did they change that? That is by far one of the dumbest changes I have ever heard!

code65536

Masel92 wrote: »

Agreed. I enjoy raiding a lot in ESO, when HoF came out i was really excited. Thing is, BoP breaks it completely. There's nothing to sell in Trials anymore, it is so annoying. I dont even have a tradeguild anymore due to that reason, as i dont get a lot of things to sell and for things that sell for 2-3k i wont bother. They should make trial sets sellable again, especially with transmutation system out there is literally no point not to do that.

They need to add a system to trials that gives them greater rewards. Yeah skins and titles are cool, but once you have them and the gear you want it is kind of lackluster to even go in that trial again. I ahvent done vHoF for weeks now bc the effort doesnt justify the rewards. i got my gold jewels when it came out and now i dont have any incentive anymore. Will be the sam with vAS. I'll do it once per week maybe and veteran non-HM, for the weekly Pperfect weapon, but thats about it....

Their reward system for the SotH dungeons (rare motif chance on normal, uncommon chance on vet, guaranteed on vet HM) made motifs a very nice economic reward for those dungeons (so much so that when I farm for gold, I do so by running Cradle or Mazzatun). In contrast, how they rewarded motifs from Maw and the Craglorn trials was an equal guaranteed but weekly-gated drop regardless of difficulty. I just hope that when they release the HoF motif, that they remove the weekly gating and make it a rare-uncommon-guaranteed drop based on difficulty. That would make that trial much more rewarding.

That said, I have stated before on the forums that I think the best reward for trials should be prestige and fun. Leaderboards are there for a reason. The problem with HoF, though, is the inconsistency. One moment you're on track for a new personal best, and the next moment, a bug or a bad case of RNG suddenly wipes that out, and it's very demoralizing. This goes back to my earlier point about content design, where the trials are designed with what seems like the goal of tripping up players.

When score seems to be based as much on luck and fortune as on skill and practice, it severely cripples that incentive, which is why people now talk about economic ones. How many people have you heard say something along the lines of "once I post a good vHoF score, I'm done"? I know of a lot of people who think that.

Motherball

This is not a personal attack on the OP or any endgame raiders, just some thoughts I had while reading through the thread. I offer it merely as a devil’s advocate and from an alternate perspective.

Sitting on mountains of gold, best gear in the game, and still complaining that you dont get enough rewards from being able to play parts of the game that 90% of the players will never see. At what point does playing the content become its own reward?

Maybe the reason nobody wants to raid is the whiney elitist checklists and the boring repetitive hoop-jumping required to actually get in the door. You honestly only have yourselves to blame with your voracious appetites and constant need to be statistically miles ahead of everyone else with piles of costumes you never use. You complain about not having anyone to raid with, but wouldn't tolerate anyone with less than perfect stats and build, sounds like more of a personal issue to me.

Horowonnoe

Motherball wrote: »

This is not a personal attack on the OP or any endgame raiders, just some thoughts I had while reading through the thread. I offer it merely as a devil’s advocate and from an alternate perspective.

Sitting on mountains of gold, best gear in the game, and still complaining that you dont get enough rewards from being able to play parts of the game that 90% of the players will never see. At what point does playing the content become its own reward?

Maybe the reason nobody wants to raid is the whiney elitist checklists and the boring repetitive hoop-jumping required to actually get in the door. You honestly only have yourselves to blame with your voracious appetites and constant need to be statistically miles ahead of everyone else with piles of costumes you never use. You complain about not having anyone to raid with, but wouldn't tolerate anyone with less than perfect stats and build, sounds like more of a personal issue to me.

It's just competitive spirit. Many endgame raiders want to push scores, and it can be very demoralizing, when you have to replace members of your team that leave with new people who you have to train over and over again just to make it back to the spot you were before. Only for it to start again, so you are essentially at the same place all the time.

Sure its fun to train someone new the first time, maybe the second time, ok the third. But after that, how long can one go on without progression? This is a reason why many top guilds only take already experienced people who have proven themselves and require minimal if any training at all.

There are plenty of training guilds that take new/inexperienced people. More of those guilds than there are competitive "elitist" guilds tbh.

kessik221

End game raiding is just a piece of the puzzle. This game has repeatedly been explained by the developers as a massive story to be shared with your friends. This is an MMO and the majority of players are not hardcore raiders. The game is so massive that each patch they kind of focus on something different every time, which is great. If you want half ass'd content every 2-3 months that has replayable raids on 6 different difficulties there are plenty of those games, this is not one of them. As for being profitable for replaying? well you could always be a class A scum and offer to carry people for money and sell the drops you get to your team.

Foxic

I totally agree with this. There are some 3-4 raid guilds left in eso actually competing for scores.

I will say that I try to be very active on the PCNA raiding scene and there are A LOT of mid tier raid guilds that want to get better. However a vast majority of them lose their drive once they start putting the work in because they don't get nothing back.

IwakuraLain42

code65536 wrote: »

Their reward system for the SotH dungeons (rare motif chance on normal, uncommon chance on vet, guaranteed on vet HM) made motifs a very nice economic reward for those dungeons (so much so that when I farm for gold, I do so by running Cradle or Mazzatun). In contrast, how they rewarded motifs from Maw and the Craglorn trials was an equal guaranteed but weekly-gated drop regardless of difficulty. I just hope that when they release the HoF motif, that they remove the weekly gating and make it a rare-uncommon-guaranteed drop based on difficulty. That would make that trial much more rewarding.

Adding these motifs was one of the worst decisions they did, not so much for peoples farming them (good for you to get something worthwhile to sell) but due to the fact that knowledge of these motifs counts for the drop chance to get Master Writs. Even now, with 4 incomplete sets (SotF, Ordinator, Armitager) I virtually never set these Writs anymore. And I'm sure as hell not paying millions of gold for single motif (also using that crappy store interface is painful).

FloppyTouch

All trial gear should be BoE I want to buy that stuff I don't want to do trials bc they are very boring and take up to much time.

Wait I just found out why no one plays end game trials...

BC ITS BORING AND TAKES UP TO MUCH TIME.

Asardes

A trial lasts 30-45 minutes, meaning you will use 40-60 spell power potions, which are around 160 a piece if you buy them or about 140 if you make them yourself. Using rough maths that means between 5500-9500 gold spent if you want 100% potion up time (they last 47.5s and the cooldown is 45s). A vet trial will give you 10-12K worth of undaunted plunder, and HM another 10K from the end boss. If you vendor the trash gear you get or decon the set items and sell the tempers and style materials on guild stores you will get 1000-1500 gold, enough to cover armor repairs. So you will at least break even and potentially do 10K+ in profits. IMO the monetary rewards for vet trials are right and should stay the same.

FakeFox

code65536 wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

It should rank accounts and not characters.

I disagree. Tanking vHoF and DPSing vHoF are two very different things, and I like that I can secure for myself separate spots on the board as both roles. Likewise for healers, melee vs. ranged DPS, etc. The cases of people farming the board with different copies of essentially the same character is quite low.

Valid point I guess. Maybe they could come up with something in-between or different sorting systems in order to make the leaderboards more representative and informative. I would love to have the option to sort by @ name or a search function.

Tan9oSuccka

I believe part of the problem is time. They take too long to form, let alone complete.

Most groups don't explain mechanics to new players and have no patience what so ever.

You can't inject new players that way. Even most Vet players (like me) tend to stay away from that crowd all together.

Mureel

Kneighbors wrote: »

The biggest problem of trials is the performance. Most people see 10-25 fps on 4th boss in vHoF. Same issue in many other places in trials. 10 fps greatly reduces FPS and makes combat sluggish.

Another problem is that many capable of vet trials players left the game. It's very much possible the issues raised in the topic are part of their decision. But personally I think the biggest push away from the game for hardcore players were big changes of tide and heavy attack combat. Hardcore player and slowass heavy attack style isn't coming together well.

On fps I find the last boss vhof the worst. It's just so much fps drop, usually on 50-60 i am on 12 or even 10, oh on some occasions, the end of the 2nd boss goddddddd.

eso_nya

For me, veteran trials are just not fun.
I'm not a great dd, so in order to become one, i would have to train on the dummy alot and chuck spellpower potions/gold out gear/grind gear in perfect traits and so on, that should get me to the entrylevel of 35k(?) dps. Than i could join a raiding guild and practise trial mechanics. One day i might be good enough to finish vtrials in a timely manner.
As i play for fun, thats not an option.
Plan B: Run vtrials with a social guild, no entrylevel, no requirements, noone making fun of you, all nice and friendly. Downside, a vAA run can take up to 4 hours, until the raidleader calls it "sry guys, not gonna happen tonight. lets try again next weekend". Needless to say, bringing a 5-button rota to a 15 minutes bossfight is...not very entertaining.

With the current skillgap, i dont really see a way to make them entertaining for both high- and lowtier groups.

deleted008293

vHOF is a hard raid. No kidding... but if you know the basics... and if you know how to survive and move it becomes really easy. People avoid it because it is long and you have a ton to explain and they don't trust everyone.

Used to be harder in the past but laterly got nerfed big time.

Mureel

The other thing is: DPS required to successfully complete an objective (done all HM and speed but vhof Speed/HM and my guild is doing it; but I've been afk a lot so not in core group) and the DPS that people who are top of their class can get are very different numbers. I know some people making 30k and they literally w me because they are intimidated by some folks pulling 40k and feel like they're not ever going to get in raids. They get scared to post their dps; because people all saying I get 40k self buffed but posted all of one big parse ever. I think the true above average-good dps number is very different than people commonly think; due to what a very few people post.

Yes many people can get that dps, etc- but the truth is not all can - but they can still be perfectly effective in raids as there are things to do other than just only be tip top dps.

Yes everything goes faster and yes everything is easier with higher group dps- but what the top 5% can do shouldn't be a wall to everyone else and it often is, due to the nature of the epeen, real or implied.

I've run a hell of a lot of raids and end game dungeons with these supposed 40k unbuffed - so explain to me why combat metrics shows my dps -+ 50% or 35ish in 3dps groups or always between 9-11% in 12 man groups all the time (and I am runner/meteor catcher/interrupter- so it depends and can be as low as 8%) when I know damn well I'm never hitting 40k or even 35k on anything self buffed.

I really do think there's a disparity there and I think it's creating a wall for a lot of people.

I main a healer in my core groups so if I dps it is only to train a healer or fill a spot to help out.

However people who are sole dps roles really need someone to step up and be true with them; whether that goes in line with my opinion or against it.

TL;DR: I think too many people lie about their dps due to CM data I've seen, and I think it makes other people only a few k shy of that feel intimidated and not good enough because they are basing their worth as a dps on bad data. So they quit raiding.

FoolishHuman

Motherball wrote: »

Sitting on mountains of gold, best gear in the game, and still complaining that you dont get enough rewards from being able to play parts of the game that 90% of the players will never see. At what point does playing the content become its own reward?

It's more like 99%, these raiders are the tiniest minority of players in the game. The leaderboards are not even filled, and they are per character! No increase in reward will change that, it will just make these people even richer since they would have a monopoly on the drops if they go BoE. You can't get people into vet trials if they are just not there.

You'd have to change the entire premise of the game, the marketing direction, everything to get new players for trials. This game fills an entirely different niche on the MMO market. Or you would have to make the trials a lot easier and more accessible than they are now, which I doubt is what you want. You should be happy you have this kind of content and leave it at that, there's already gear, skins, titles etc. that the vast majority of players will never see. The next trial will have slightly downscaled version of the rewards for normal runs, that is the direction the game is taking, simply because that is what this game and their marketing is promising.

Nebthet78

Mureel wrote: »

The other thing is: DPS required to successfully complete an objective (done all HM and speed but vhof Speed/HM and my guild is doing it; but I've been afk a lot so not in core group) and the DPS that people who are top of their class can get are very different numbers. I know some people making 30k and they literally w me because they are intimidated by some folks pulling 40k and feel like they're not ever going to get in raids. They get scared to post their dps; because people all saying I get 40k self buffed but posted all of one big parse ever. I think the true above average-good dps number is very different than people commonly think; due to what a very few people post.

Yes many people can get that dps, etc- but the truth is not all can - but they can still be perfectly effective in raids as there are things to do other than just only be tip top dps.

Yes everything goes faster and yes everything is easier with higher group dps- but what the top 5% can do shouldn't be a wall to everyone else and it often is, due to the nature of the epeen, real or implied.

I've run a hell of a lot of raids and end game dungeons with these supposed 40k unbuffed - so explain to me why combat metrics shows my dps -+ 50% or 35ish in 3dps groups or always between 9-11% in 12 man groups all the time (and I am runner/meteor catcher/interrupter- so it depends and can be as low as 8%) when I know damn well I'm never hitting 40k or even 35k on anything self buffed.

I really do think there's a disparity there and I think it's creating a wall for a lot of people.

I main a healer in my core groups so if I dps it is only to train a healer or fill a spot to help out.

However people who are sole dps roles really need someone to step up and be true with them; whether that goes in line with my opinion or against it.

TL;DR: I think too many people lie about their dps due to CM data I've seen, and I think it makes other people only a few k shy of that feel intimidated and not good enough because they are basing their worth as a dps on bad data. So they quit raiding.

I think that might be part of the issue. New people coming in to trials don't realize just how much work it takes to learn what you need to do to pull the high DPS numbers and the coordination required to work as a large group (VMol Twins, I'm talking about you!)

I see people on the forums always complaining about this class or that class pulling super high dps numbers, and I've come to learn, that it's NOT the actual skills themselves that are being used, but HOW they are being used.

You can have all the same gear and slot all the same skills and potions as someone pulling 40k in a trial, yet for some reason your are barely pulling 20k and a lot of people don't get it and they get frustrated, not realizing it comes down to your rotation, AND being able to animation cancel, which I feel is the big one. Not a whole lot of people know how to animation cancel. There is no tutorial for it in the game (yeah, yeah, there are youtube videos), and it feels extremely unnatural.

It takes a many, many, many hours working away on your DPS dummy to work out those rotations and learn how to animation cancel, how to weave in light and heavy attacks and a lot of people really don't want to spend the dedicated time to do that. It's not fun for them.

Add on top of that, the grind required to get the gear you need, which can take an insane amount of time, as we all know, ZOS likes to fudge the drop numbers on sought after gear sets.

For a lot of players, this sort of thing really sucks the fun out of the game for them, they end up working this game like another job, rather than something fun to do, and that is just really depressing.


On a slightly off topic note:
I have an idea for someone who knows how to make add-ons, something that would go a long way to helping out those who need to train for their rotations. It'd be really awesome if someone made a Raid Rotation Tutor add-on. One where you can input what you rotation needs to be, including skills and heavy attacks, and it pops up on your screen that you need to hit that skill and if you miss it, the lettering turns red and if you get it, you go on to the next skill. You can program it with heavy and light attacks and the speed of the tutor adjusts automatically based on how quickly you go through your rotation. So you may be slow at first, but eventually you will get pretty good as you get more comfortable.
I think something like this would go a hell of a long way to helping players new to raiding learn their rotation

Mureel

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

The other thing is: DPS required to successfully complete an objective (done all HM and speed but vhof Speed/HM and my guild is doing it; but I've been afk a lot so not in core group) and the DPS that people who are top of their class can get are very different numbers. I know some people making 30k and they literally w me because they are intimidated by some folks pulling 40k and feel like they're not ever going to get in raids. They get scared to post their dps; because people all saying I get 40k self buffed but posted all of one big parse ever. I think the true above average-good dps number is very different than people commonly think; due to what a very few people post.

Yes many people can get that dps, etc- but the truth is not all can - but they can still be perfectly effective in raids as there are things to do other than just only be tip top dps.

Yes everything goes faster and yes everything is easier with higher group dps- but what the top 5% can do shouldn't be a wall to everyone else and it often is, due to the nature of the epeen, real or implied.

I've run a hell of a lot of raids and end game dungeons with these supposed 40k unbuffed - so explain to me why combat metrics shows my dps -+ 50% or 35ish in 3dps groups or always between 9-11% in 12 man groups all the time (and I am runner/meteor catcher/interrupter- so it depends and can be as low as 8%) when I know damn well I'm never hitting 40k or even 35k on anything self buffed.

I really do think there's a disparity there and I think it's creating a wall for a lot of people.

I main a healer in my core groups so if I dps it is only to train a healer or fill a spot to help out.

However people who are sole dps roles really need someone to step up and be true with them; whether that goes in line with my opinion or against it.

TL;DR: I think too many people lie about their dps due to CM data I've seen, and I think it makes other people only a few k shy of that feel intimidated and not good enough because they are basing their worth as a dps on bad data. So they quit raiding.

I think that might be part of the issue. New people coming in to trials don't realize just how much work it takes to learn what you need to do to pull the high DPS numbers and the coordination required to work as a large group (VMol Twins, I'm talking about you!)

I see people on the forums always complaining about this class or that class pulling super high dps numbers, and I've come to learn, that it's NOT the actual skills themselves that are being used, but HOW they are being used.

You can have all the same gear and slot all the same skills and potions as someone pulling 40k in a trial, yet for some reason your are barely pulling 20k and a lot of people don't get it and they get frustrated, not realizing it comes down to your rotation, AND being able to animation cancel, which I feel is the big one. Not a whole lot of people know how to animation cancel. There is no tutorial for it in the game (yeah, yeah, there are youtube videos), and it feels extremely unnatural.

It takes a many, many, many hours working away on your DPS dummy to work out those rotations and learn how to animation cancel, how to weave in light and heavy attacks and a lot of people really don't want to spend the dedicated time to do that. It's not fun for them.

Add on top of that, the grind required to get the gear you need, which can take an insane amount of time, as we all know, ZOS likes to fudge the drop numbers on sought after gear sets.

For a lot of players, this sort of thing really sucks the fun out of the game for them, they end up working this game like another job, rather than something fun to do, and that is just really depressing.


On a slightly off topic note:
I have an idea for someone who knows how to make add-ons, something that would go a long way to helping out those who need to train for their rotations. It'd be really awesome if someone made a Raid Rotation Tutor add-on. One where you can input what you rotation needs to be, including skills and heavy attacks, and it pops up on your screen that you need to hit that skill and if you miss it, the lettering turns red and if you get it, you go on to the next skill. You can program it with heavy and light attacks and the speed of the tutor adjusts automatically based on how quickly you go through your rotation. So you may be slow at first, but eventually you will get pretty good as you get more comfortable.
I think something like this would go a hell of a long way to helping players new to raiding learn their rotation

I can't speak to Spamina builds but: Magblade and Magsorc rotations (esp pet build) are ridiculous easy. I can post these if anyone needs: but it's literally 2-3 la cancelled with skills, bar swap and la, 2 skills and then heavy cancelled with skill or 3x la cancelled with skills swap, and la and spammable and grim focus & siphoning strikes when applicable - these are very easy rotations.

As said I can write them in proper detail if anyone wants; but I think it's getting a bit off topic then.

Spamina builds have more complex rotations; at least the ones I have read from guildies.

Cancelling with a fire staff and Siphin Soul/Funnel Health is a pain really- and you must be careful to not cancel your grim focus when it procs. The ther thing is siphoning strikes on CD and pots on CD. I prefer lightning staves.

Anyway 9/10 dps is really down to perfecting rotation and that is down to practise mostly but a varying amount is also down to pc (processor) and internet performance as far as getting data to the server.

Mureel

nordmarian wrote: »

vHOF is a hard raid. No kidding... but if you know the basics... and if you know how to survive and move it becomes really easy. People avoid it because it is long and you have a ton to explain and they don't trust everyone.

Used to be harder in the past but laterly got nerfed big time.

Hugs from a friend! Well said!

Jade1986

Mureel wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

The other thing is: DPS required to successfully complete an objective (done all HM and speed but vhof Speed/HM and my guild is doing it; but I've been afk a lot so not in core group) and the DPS that people who are top of their class can get are very different numbers. I know some people making 30k and they literally w me because they are intimidated by some folks pulling 40k and feel like they're not ever going to get in raids. They get scared to post their dps; because people all saying I get 40k self buffed but posted all of one big parse ever. I think the true above average-good dps number is very different than people commonly think; due to what a very few people post.

Yes many people can get that dps, etc- but the truth is not all can - but they can still be perfectly effective in raids as there are things to do other than just only be tip top dps.

Yes everything goes faster and yes everything is easier with higher group dps- but what the top 5% can do shouldn't be a wall to everyone else and it often is, due to the nature of the epeen, real or implied.

I've run a hell of a lot of raids and end game dungeons with these supposed 40k unbuffed - so explain to me why combat metrics shows my dps -+ 50% or 35ish in 3dps groups or always between 9-11% in 12 man groups all the time (and I am runner/meteor catcher/interrupter- so it depends and can be as low as 8%) when I know damn well I'm never hitting 40k or even 35k on anything self buffed.

I really do think there's a disparity there and I think it's creating a wall for a lot of people.

I main a healer in my core groups so if I dps it is only to train a healer or fill a spot to help out.

However people who are sole dps roles really need someone to step up and be true with them; whether that goes in line with my opinion or against it.

TL;DR: I think too many people lie about their dps due to CM data I've seen, and I think it makes other people only a few k shy of that feel intimidated and not good enough because they are basing their worth as a dps on bad data. So they quit raiding.

I think that might be part of the issue. New people coming in to trials don't realize just how much work it takes to learn what you need to do to pull the high DPS numbers and the coordination required to work as a large group (VMol Twins, I'm talking about you!)

I see people on the forums always complaining about this class or that class pulling super high dps numbers, and I've come to learn, that it's NOT the actual skills themselves that are being used, but HOW they are being used.

You can have all the same gear and slot all the same skills and potions as someone pulling 40k in a trial, yet for some reason your are barely pulling 20k and a lot of people don't get it and they get frustrated, not realizing it comes down to your rotation, AND being able to animation cancel, which I feel is the big one. Not a whole lot of people know how to animation cancel. There is no tutorial for it in the game (yeah, yeah, there are youtube videos), and it feels extremely unnatural.

It takes a many, many, many hours working away on your DPS dummy to work out those rotations and learn how to animation cancel, how to weave in light and heavy attacks and a lot of people really don't want to spend the dedicated time to do that. It's not fun for them.

Add on top of that, the grind required to get the gear you need, which can take an insane amount of time, as we all know, ZOS likes to fudge the drop numbers on sought after gear sets.

For a lot of players, this sort of thing really sucks the fun out of the game for them, they end up working this game like another job, rather than something fun to do, and that is just really depressing.


On a slightly off topic note:
I have an idea for someone who knows how to make add-ons, something that would go a long way to helping out those who need to train for their rotations. It'd be really awesome if someone made a Raid Rotation Tutor add-on. One where you can input what you rotation needs to be, including skills and heavy attacks, and it pops up on your screen that you need to hit that skill and if you miss it, the lettering turns red and if you get it, you go on to the next skill. You can program it with heavy and light attacks and the speed of the tutor adjusts automatically based on how quickly you go through your rotation. So you may be slow at first, but eventually you will get pretty good as you get more comfortable.
I think something like this would go a hell of a long way to helping players new to raiding learn their rotation

I can't speak to Spamina builds but: Magblade and Magsorc rotations (esp pet build) are ridiculous easy. I can post these if anyone needs: but it's literally 2-3 la cancelled with skills, bar swap and la, 2 skills and then heavy cancelled with skill or 3x la cancelled with skills swap, and la and spammable and grim focus & siphoning strikes when applicable - these are very easy rotations.

As said I can write them in proper detail if anyone wants; but I think it's getting a bit off topic then.

Spamina builds have more complex rotations; at least the ones I have read from guildies.

Cancelling with a fire staff and Siphin Soul/Funnel Health is a pain really- and you must be careful to not cancel your grim focus when it procs. The ther thing is siphoning strikes on CD and pots on CD. I prefer lightning staves.

Anyway 9/10 dps is really down to perfecting rotation and that is down to practise mostly but a varying amount is also down to pc (processor) and internet performance as far as getting data to the server.

I am really new to magicka builds, but am really starting to enjoy them, rotations for pretty much all magicka builds would be great , just pm me. Would be super sweet of you. Looking to start a sorc soon, never ever played it since launch, but am really getting interested in magicka builds as they have far more versatility than stam builds, which pretty much always have 50% the same rotation across the board.

Mureel

eso_nya wrote: »

For me, veteran trials are just not fun.
I'm not a great dd, so in order to become one, i would have to train on the dummy alot and chuck spellpower potions/gold out gear/grind gear in perfect traits and so on, that should get me to the entrylevel of 35k(?) dps. Than i could join a raiding guild and practise trial mechanics. One day i might be good enough to finish vtrials in a timely manner.
As i play for fun, thats not an option.
Plan B: Run vtrials with a social guild, no entrylevel, no requirements, noone making fun of you, all nice and friendly. Downside, a vAA run can take up to 4 hours, until the raidleader calls it "sry guys, not gonna happen tonight. lets try again next weekend". Needless to say, bringing a 5-button rota to a 15 minutes bossfight is...not very entertaining.

With the current skillgap, i dont really see a way to make them entertaining for both high- and lowtier groups.

You make my point. 35k is entry level only because people are basing their own entry level off the top 1-10% - when that is just not legit. Period.

Also pretty much all my own VAA raids clear unless people really are being ridiculous and not focusing mini Mage/correct assigned adds on wispmother etc. You cannot really fail VAA unless people really chain lightning each other to death or don't focus targets.

I got a scrub/fun/pug group to 5% *first try, HM accidentally activated by people going What does this do?* health final boss VAA Hard Mode and we failed at the end due to one healer being down and no one stopped to Rez and the other healer just could not hang the solo. If it weren't late and I had to get up early; I'd have swapped in a DD and switched to heals so CP would be up always and I know I can solo heal it, etc.

People listening and not doing things other than told goes a long way. I guarantee ya.

9/10 trials fails are down to random people doing random wrong things that they don't know or don't understand what the raid leader means with their commands.

One hundred years ago, when I was first in HRC, when the boss jumped you better not be in it because it was sure death. So the raid leader would say JUMP! (This was Mary, from Deviance, so many know how cool she was and how long ago this was lol) and I would MASH my space bar! jumped like a boss! And I'd die, when I was in the boss jump and then I finally spoke on ts and said: I jump Every Time you say JUMP and still, dead! They LOL their asses off; then explained the jump- and it was instantly obvious after that- so much so I felt stupid because it was stupid! But I was new, I was nervy and stressed re performance and just it didn't click.

AtraisMachina

Yea its pretty impossible to get enough players with the capability to beat trials these days. Havent raided legit in 2 or 3 weeks.. idrc what they do but id like to be able to raid without getting 12 fps.

Mureel

AtraisMachina wrote: »

Yea its pretty impossible to get enough players with the capability to beat trials these days. Havent raided legit in 2 or 3 weeks.. idrc what they do but id like to be able to raid without getting 12 fps.

And how much of that is due to raid leader asking for all DDs to have 35k+ so people don't even sign up for raid?