[VID] Why the Tanking Meta in PVP has become detrimental to PVP health .

Extinct_Solo_Player

Only unkillable if you have a l2p issue In the state of pvp at the moment the amount of stupid uncounterable stuff, pop imbalance due to too many dead campaigns which causes everyone to pigeonhole to 1 campaign has become detrimental to pvp imo not "unkillable" tanks who can be killed by any player who knows what they are doing and i don't mean spamming 1 button xv1 hoping that something happens .

Casul

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Only unkillable if have a l2p issue

I don't think learn to play is really something that should be throw around.

L2P is something to me, that seems more in line with beginners learning the ropes.

The arguements around this seems more like a weakness to there playstyle that they need to revaluate. I won't even lie. I suck at fighting magsorcs. But I don't think they are OP. They just have alot going for them. In turn I need to change up my approach of how I fight them.

The same applies to tanks.

Rohamad_Ali

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Only unkillable if have a l2p issue

You mean L2Zerg issue unless you have video showing you've killed any of these player we are mentioning in this thread . If you do by all means show us your skill we've never witnessed .

Extinct_Solo_Player

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Only unkillable if have a l2p issue

You mean L2Zerg issue unless you have video showing you've killed any of these player we are mentioning in this thread . If you do by all means show us your skill we've never witnessed .

I would be happy to comply but unfortunately im not on the NA server. In a 1v1 scenario someone with a decent idea on someones weakness will not have a hard time killing them and to be honest there a quite a few weaknesses to these players' builds but i guess you should go figure it out yourself.

lynog85

Alot of these tanks are.unintentionally using an exploit in the CP tree. Some intentionally. Zos fixing that would be a start.

Rainraven

BuildMan wrote: »

@Rohamad_Ali

As far as flags go, well you need to spec to counter a tank.

Counters to tanks.
-resource poisons.
-oblivion damage.
-bleed damage (not sure saw a thread about how it mitigates defenses)
-major and minor defile.
-dk chain (just drag them away)
-warden portal (above)

All you have to do is drain their resources. Worst case if a tank is on a flag and is taking the pressure without having a tree to run around he is gonna be pressure down faster then ever. If you keep defile up then the healing reduction will prevent the rubber band heals.

I still stick by my opinion that tanks are needed in pvp.

@icontrive

Did these tanks kill you? Because a shield stack sorc still have 40k magicka backing up his offense.

It's so useful when people make lists like that. Thank you, sincerely. Although I'll run naked in Cyrodiil before the answer is resource poisons.

I have to disagree with your previous point that someone who specs fully into defense should be unkillable. That's directly comparable to a NB who can poke and cloak wherever with impunity forever (or until 10 people are summoned to focus him). There are counters and limitations on that so one intelligent player can't have too much power over the fight. That's as it should be.

People are getting mighty cranky about this discussion, and I think it's because we all know when the nerfhammer falls it's (almost) always way too hard and then we're stuck with that for months. But as an average potato out in open world Cyro, I'm seeing so many heavies now who have to be individually focused one at a time. And no, we can't just ignore you. Objectives are a thing. Flags and siege weapons can't just ignore you either.

I can't even imagine how it's going to be with high CP minitanks in BGs. And that's when the nerf will come, when that meta gets the spotlight in 4v4v4.

(edited for disturbing typo)

technohic

It's not really heavy armor that causes this. It's just specific sets and synergies. You don't just slap on heavy and suddenly become unkillable.

Flip side of that, ever try to run around lately without heavy and no shield? Holly hell can some things hit hard!

zyk

technohic wrote: »

It's not really heavy armor that causes this. It's just specific sets and synergies. You don't just slap on heavy and suddenly become unkillable.

Flip side of that, ever try to run around lately without heavy and no shield? Holly hell can some things hit hard!

This thread shouldn't be about the extreme example of troll tanks. If you look at what the most competitive players wear solo or in small groups, most are in heavy. This is because it is over-performing and has been since its buff. Before its buff, medium was generally preferred among such players.

I run 5-1-1 LA with my magicka nb. I tend to play on the front lines, so I do not play a sneaky style usually. If I do not play well, I melt. Who do I melt from the most? Heavy Armor users because they have greater freedom to pressure and go on the offensive. They can spend more time on the attack and less time reeling. As they spend fewer resources on healing, mitigation and evasion, they can more easily stack damage.

I can be pretty tanky with my LA setup. I do well usually, but it takes a lot of work. If I'm tired, slow, or mess up a bar swap, I'm dead. The same is true for players in medium. When they're on their game, the mobility and evasion of medium builds can keep them alive, but one mistake and they're dead. This would not be the case in heavy which is much more forgiving.

Takes-No-Prisoner

BuildMan wrote: »

I disagree. I do feel that tanks are strong but if you spec fully for defense then you should be unkillable.

For example.

I run 5 hist bark, 5 ebon, 1 (eventually 2) chudan in pvp. I run 8 sturdy with absorb magic. I can block for quite a while. Mixed with north wind and healing thicket (I'm a warden) I can heal through alot of pressure. While at the same time I can apply pressure with frozen gate (pull people who are archers behind the zergs or my favorite pull a destro bomber from my group who's capping a resource.) I also use gripping shards after a gate to hold the person down and force them to dodge roll. This applies pressure and drains resources allowing my team an easier kill.

I think the main issue is we have alot of "I'll sit here and block forever and now I'm helpful" tanks. They are just sponges and should be ignored. A good tank should be making your life hell.

I would say the best experience I've had being a tank in pvp was when me and a stam dk were guarded and sat there with about 30 people attacking us. It was heal after heal. Ultimate after ultimate. And you know what, regardless of whether we didn't kill them we gave our team enough time to rush the front door and cap the flag while they were occupied with us.

That, in my opinion, is why tanks are an important role in pvp.

Edit: should mention my CP is all in defense, self healing, and magicka sustain/block reduction. Literally 0 damage.

I have run into situations like this on my tank. Feels good knowing I held the line long enough for back up to arrive.

Rohamad_Ali

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Only unkillable if have a l2p issue

You mean L2Zerg issue unless you have video showing you've killed any of these player we are mentioning in this thread . If you do by all means show us your skill we've never witnessed .

I would be happy to comply but unfortunately im not on the NA server. In a 1v1 scenario someone with a decent idea on someones weakness will not have a hard time killing them and to be honest there a quite a few weaknesses to these players' builds but i guess you should go figure it out yourself.

So we are to assume you are better then everyone on the NA PC server because no one is accomplishing what you are stating is possible . Or you have sub par tanks were you play . Hmm I wonder which it is .

Minno

technohic wrote: »

It's not really heavy armor that causes this. It's just specific sets and synergies. You don't just slap on heavy and suddenly become unkillable.

Flip side of that, ever try to run around lately without heavy and no shield? Holly hell can some things hit hard!

Yea, but it's fun to figure out what exactly makes LA a bit more tankier than we used to think.

ezeepeezee

technohic wrote: »

It's not really heavy armor that causes this. It's just specific sets and synergies. You don't just slap on heavy and suddenly become unkillable.

Flip side of that, ever try to run around lately without heavy and no shield? Holly hell can some things hit hard!

So much this. I've been playing on my stam sorc for a few days now. It's wearing 7th, Briarheart, and Troll King, using Forward Momentum, Crit Surge, Blood Thirst (that's the healing version of Rapid Strikes right?) and Vigor/Dark Deal on the Overload bar for when that's necessary. The amount of incoming healing is honestly absurd, and I can generally keep myself alive so long as I am focusing a target and keeping them in melee.

However, when one single magicka Sorc shows up whose damage is fine tuned - and yes, other classes can do it, but it's very much more noticable with mSorcs - I can be blown up nearly instantly. I've also come across a few NBs that hit hard enough to stop me, but I can out-pressure them much more reliably than the mSorcs, because part of my build is having a good crit rate, which as everyone knows is worthless against Hardened Ward.

I do not wonder at all why 99/100 times I go offensive on someone, they whip out the sword and board.

Derra

umagon wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

2. Death is meaningless as players can resurrect an unlimited amount of times.

If death is meaningless why would you try to create a build about not dying?

You are trying to take what I am talking about out of context. Pvp is objective based and most of the time that is flipping flags. Which have little to do with killing players individually it has more to do with the ability to stand one spot while under heavy fire longer than the opposing group can and flipping the flags. Death is meaningless in that regard because it’s not about killing players it’s about have the most players on the flags in a short time interval. A tank build allows a player to stand in that spot longer then someone who doesn’t have a similar build thus completing the objective.

There are players who play the map and there are players who just want solo 1v1. Tank builds most of the time are built around playing the map and not 1v1 fights. What you have in this thread is people complaining about not being able to 1v1 a tank to death. When 98% of the time they can just walk away and go do something else.

Then why do i meet those tank players open field with no intention to go to their beloved flags where they should feel useful? :P

Qbiken

lynog85 wrote: »

Alot of these tanks are.unintentionally using an exploit in the CP tree. Some intentionally. Zos fixing that would be a start.

They fixed the befoul "passive", but are you saying that there´s another "exploit" still going on??

Casul

Qbiken wrote: »

lynog85 wrote: »

Alot of these tanks are.unintentionally using an exploit in the CP tree. Some intentionally. Zos fixing that would be a start.

They fixed the befoul "passive", but are you saying that there´s another "exploit" still going on??

I completely forgot about that exploit. I'm not even using that and I can 1vx pretty well. Can't imagine how rediculous it would be if someone was to have that what? 50% more healing. I mean damn.

Extinct_Solo_Player

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

So we are to assume you are better then everyone on the NA PC server because no one is accomplishing what you are stating is possible . Or you have sub par tanks were you play . Hmm I wonder which it is .

Firstly who is "we" because i only see you talking and secondly im not saying I'm some godly player i just know what some of these people are running and also know the weakness to the build is but you don't really need to know the build to find the weaknesses. In a game like this in 1v1 nearly everything is unbalanced so i don't know why you think 1v1 involves skill when it really doesn't anymore and i wouldn't say just because 2-3 players are running these builds instantly make them meta because like you said no one else is achieving this because they do not know what they are using. Also don't try to bring some NA vs EU crap into this because you are clearly changing your "indestructible tank subject"

Rohamad_Ali

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

So we are to assume you are better then everyone on the NA PC server because no one is accomplishing what you are stating is possible . Or you have sub par tanks were you play . Hmm I wonder which it is .

Firstly who is "we" because i only see you talking and secondly im not saying I'm some godly player i just know what some of these people are running and also know the weakness to the build is but you don't really need to know the build to find the weaknesses. In a game like this in 1v1 nearly everything is unbalanced so i don't know why you think 1v1 involves skill when it really doesn't anymore and i wouldn't say just because 2-3 players are running these builds instantly make them meta because like you said no one else is achieving this because they do not know what they are using. Also don't try to bring some NA vs EU crap into this because you are clearly changing your "indestructible tank subject"

We would be anyone reading what you wrote which was that you knew the weakness in these builds and how to counter them . You also stated it was a l2p issue prior . I never used the word skill anywhere when replying to you . Also there are way more then 2 or three people running big tank builds on PC NA . As stated by others there are groups running these . Guilds some nights . It's a bigger issue then you've perceived from somewhere , not anywhere in my posts . The subject has remained the same the entire time . Only thing that's changed is you've back peddled when I called you out for your statement and inability through server to shows any proof of your claims . I understand being called on a bluff is uncomfortable but is to be expected when simplifying a larger subject with a short l2p comment . If you are uncomfortable showing your skill , I understand and will not continue to ask bit would ask you also don't expect anyone reading to simply believe you can beat these builds on statements alone .

Arthg

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I wanted to address the Balance Devs and PVP Devs with my reasoning behind the current tank meta in PVP being bad for competition in PVP . So I've put together a video in describing these reasons to show and say at the same time my opinion on this .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8PzzLE8OSUI&persist_app=1&app=m

For those not wishing to watch I'll site my points below .

1. Indestructible tanks discourage smaller scale fights and encourage zerging to bring those players down . They are not Zerg fighters they are Zerg creators .
2. The old balance Devs would make changes to avoid unkillable builds and PVP was more active pre 1.6 . Current PVP Balance has not addressed this and PVP is not as active .
3. Gear and CP are at the core of unkillable tanks but more gear then cp . That is why changing the cp system did not address unkillable tanks .
4. Having any build that players just avoid is not encouraging PVP it is discouraging PVP to take place . Most MMOs and PVP games know this and reel unkillable tank builds back for the health of PVP in their games . They use to do it here but not in a long time .
5. Subjective statement but I do not believe this meta is skill based , only gear based .


Agree or disagree these are my thoughts .

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert I am tagging you because your opinions on this would be appricated .

I so disagree with the bold part.
Last time I stepped in Vivec I thought sustain, damage and tankiness were ridiculous. Ridiculous.
There's nowhere near such imbalance in Sotha Sil.
And to think they want CP in BGs - what a terrible idea.
CP PvP is broken.

Rohamad_Ali

Arthg wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I wanted to address the Balance Devs and PVP Devs with my reasoning behind the current tank meta in PVP being bad for competition in PVP . So I've put together a video in describing these reasons to show and say at the same time my opinion on this .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8PzzLE8OSUI&persist_app=1&app=m

For those not wishing to watch I'll site my points below .

1. Indestructible tanks discourage smaller scale fights and encourage zerging to bring those players down . They are not Zerg fighters they are Zerg creators .
2. The old balance Devs would make changes to avoid unkillable builds and PVP was more active pre 1.6 . Current PVP Balance has not addressed this and PVP is not as active .
3. Gear and CP are at the core of unkillable tanks but more gear then cp . That is why changing the cp system did not address unkillable tanks .
4. Having any build that players just avoid is not encouraging PVP it is discouraging PVP to take place . Most MMOs and PVP games know this and reel unkillable tank builds back for the health of PVP in their games . They use to do it here but not in a long time .
5. Subjective statement but I do not believe this meta is skill based , only gear based .


Agree or disagree these are my thoughts .

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert I am tagging you because your opinions on this would be appricated .

I so disagree with the bold part.
Last time I stepped in Vivec I thought sustain, damage and tankiness were ridiculous. Ridiculous.
There's nowhere near such imbalance in Sotha Sil.
And to think they want CP in BGs - what a terrible idea.
CP PvP is broken.

I won't disagree because the cp is apart of the issue . Some of these gear sets paired together however are magnifying the builds power . It's a reactive problem in cp to the nerfs to sharpened , several mundus stones , removals of crits and other things without the dev department making any compensation on the defensive and healing side of builds . Which is a heavier culprit I can not honestly point a finger directly at so maybe you are correct and I am off , maybe .

Bashev

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I wanted to address the Balance Devs and PVP Devs with my reasoning behind the current tank meta in PVP being bad for competition in PVP . So I've put together a video in describing these reasons to show and say at the same time my opinion on this .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8PzzLE8OSUI&persist_app=1&app=m

For those not wishing to watch I'll site my points below .

1. Indestructible tanks discourage smaller scale fights and encourage zerging to bring those players down . They are not Zerg fighters they are Zerg creators .
2. The old balance Devs would make changes to avoid unkillable builds and PVP was more active pre 1.6 . Current PVP Balance has not addressed this and PVP is not as active .
3. Gear and CP are at the core of unkillable tanks but more gear then cp . That is why changing the cp system did not address unkillable tanks .
4. Having any build that players just avoid is not encouraging PVP it is discouraging PVP to take place . Most MMOs and PVP games know this and reel unkillable tank builds back for the health of PVP in their games . They use to do it here but not in a long time .
5. Subjective statement but I do not believe this meta is skill based , only gear based .


Agree or disagree these are my thoughts .

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert I am tagging you because your opinions on this would be appricated .

Point 3 is where you are wrong. The core problem is the CP system.
* 20% more stamina, health and magicka
* 20% cheaper roll dodge, block cost reduction and break free reduction
* Vengeance passive for burst heals

For the gear you just need one set for sustain.
Also healing scale absolutely amazing without investing points in spell damage.

I have a build where I can perma block with resto staff and have infinite magicka:
*Magicka DK, argonian with blood spawn
* reactive and infused master staff perma block and spam healing springs
* all traits sturdy, all 3 stats enchants and block cost reduction

Rohamad_Ali

Bashev wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I wanted to address the Balance Devs and PVP Devs with my reasoning behind the current tank meta in PVP being bad for competition in PVP . So I've put together a video in describing these reasons to show and say at the same time my opinion on this .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8PzzLE8OSUI&persist_app=1&app=m

For those not wishing to watch I'll site my points below .

1. Indestructible tanks discourage smaller scale fights and encourage zerging to bring those players down . They are not Zerg fighters they are Zerg creators .
2. The old balance Devs would make changes to avoid unkillable builds and PVP was more active pre 1.6 . Current PVP Balance has not addressed this and PVP is not as active .
3. Gear and CP are at the core of unkillable tanks but more gear then cp . That is why changing the cp system did not address unkillable tanks .
4. Having any build that players just avoid is not encouraging PVP it is discouraging PVP to take place . Most MMOs and PVP games know this and reel unkillable tank builds back for the health of PVP in their games . They use to do it here but not in a long time .
5. Subjective statement but I do not believe this meta is skill based , only gear based .


Agree or disagree these are my thoughts .

@Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert I am tagging you because your opinions on this would be appricated .

Point 3 is where you are wrong. The core problem is the CP system.
* 20% more stamina, health and magicka
* 20% cheaper roll dodge, block cost reduction and break free reduction
* Vengeance passive for burst heals

For the gear you just need one set for sustain.
Also healing scale absolutely amazing without investing points in spell damage.

I have a build where I can perma block with resto staff and have infinite magicka:
*Magicka DK, argonian with blood spawn
* reactive and infused master staff perma block and spam healing springs
* all traits sturdy, all 3 stats enchants and block cost reduction

Ok thank you for clearing that up .

Extinct_Solo_Player

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

We would be anyone reading what you wrote which was that you knew the weakness in these builds and how to counter them . You also stated it was a l2p issue prior . I never used the word skill anywhere when replying to you . Also there are way more then 2 or three people running big tank builds on PC NA . As stated by others there are groups running these . Guilds some nights . It's a bigger issue then you've perceived from somewhere , not anywhere in my posts . The subject has remained the same the entire time . Only thing that's changed is you've back peddled when I called you out for your statement and inability through server to shows any proof of your claims . I understand being called on a bluff is uncomfortable but is to be expected when simplifying a larger subject with a short l2p comment . If you are uncomfortable showing your skill , I understand and will not continue to ask bit would ask you also don't expect anyone reading to simply believe you can beat these builds on statements alone .

Well if you read properly you would've seen the part where i said you don't even need to know the build to find the weaknesses and like i said i would happily show you if i was the NA server so its not really me bluffing at all or being uncomfortable with my skill lmfao. By watching your demonstration of "tanking" by running to the safety of your zerg every time you are low it really shows you would call anything that can block for longer than 10 seconds an indestructible tank build lol. If you cannot find any counters to these builds by using your head it is an obvious l2p issue imo.

Rohamad_Ali

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

We would be anyone reading what you wrote which was that you knew the weakness in these builds and how to counter them . You also stated it was a l2p issue prior . I never used the word skill anywhere when replying to you . Also there are way more then 2 or three people running big tank builds on PC NA . As stated by others there are groups running these . Guilds some nights . It's a bigger issue then you've perceived from somewhere , not anywhere in my posts . The subject has remained the same the entire time . Only thing that's changed is you've back peddled when I called you out for your statement and inability through server to shows any proof of your claims . I understand being called on a bluff is uncomfortable but is to be expected when simplifying a larger subject with a short l2p comment . If you are uncomfortable showing your skill , I understand and will not continue to ask bit would ask you also don't expect anyone reading to simply believe you can beat these builds on statements alone .

Well if you read properly you would've seen the part where i said you don't even need to know the build to find the weaknesses and like i said i would happily show you if i was the NA server so its not really me bluffing at all or being uncomfortable with my skill lmfao. By watching your demonstration of "tanking" by running to the safety of your zerg every time you are low it really shows you would call anything that can block for longer than 10 seconds an indestructible tank build lol. If you cannot find any counters to these builds by using your head it is an obvious l2p issue imo.

Ok I get it from you , you don't like what I said so now your going to poke fun . That's fine but we are done talking because this is just not productive now . Best wishes to you .

fastolfv_ESO

the game was unhealthy when everyone had enough pen that everyone pvped in their skin, and yet it was more balanced than every group being in full heavy and forming mega zergs too terrified of a destro train. Players need to die and for those that choose to be bursty you should be able to kill the untrained masses, the current meta is just horrible

WeylandLabs

Agree 100000%

News Alert !

If you can't die in PVP thiers something wrong.

Healing is 3x stronger than damage, and permablocking does not take enough resources via, sets, cp, or traits.

RinaldoGandolphi

The game has too much power creep now to take it seriously or to even care.

Rather then be bitter, im just a casual...i play enough to gold out one toon and then play maybe once a week if that. (No longer sub, have a few weeks left on my previous one)

The PVP in this game is far less fun then it was at launch. They have slowly drove the game into the ground from a pvp standpoint.

Example: in 1.x(before 1.6) if you animation cancel spammed like most folks do now, if you couldn't kill the guy you were fighting in 8-12 seconds you were out of resources and dog meat to a player who could withstand your fury....today? Everyone just animation cancel spams everything to their hearts content, or stacks shields, or tapes down their right-mouse button, etc and it simply doesn't matter.

The game is 100% focused around burst(who can deal the most damage the fastest) and has killed all other skillful ways to pvp(kiting, running your opponent dry, hard countering their skills) The days of reflecting most skills and meteors because of skillful counters is gone.

the game is dominated by Snares, Zergs, and BS mechanics and gear sets. Nearly every skill in the game snares...god forbid anyone can move. The Charge Snare is the worst cancer in the game, its one of the primary reasons(Along with unplayable primetime lag)that my playtime has went down big time....

The folks defending ZOS balance decisions are living in a dream. They don't see the house that is burning down around them that is PVP.

Here is a picture from from Feb 2017 of this year




As you can see we had nearly two campaigns that were "pop locked" or close at primetime, with the non-vet pvp also doing well hovering around 2 bar day time and locked at prime time with the off campaign around 3 bars...now we only have one campaign that gets any real population at all....Will anyone acknowledge the house that is burning down here?

We have lost an entire pop locked campaign worth of people in pvp since Morrowind on PC-NA

Despite these losses, Vivec is unplayable at primetime to anyone not running around in a 12-24 man raid...solo players just get drowned in lag and client FPS tanking, and gap closing into load screens and falling though the earth.. Its not the least bit enjoyable.

The tank meta is just the icing on the cake, PVP is the most unfun its ever been. Its absolutely terrible, and the upcomin changes with CWC look to make it even worse.

Joy_Division

Why go back to Feb 2017? Go back to Sept 2015, we had 3 servers on NA that were pop-locked, (that prompted ZoS to add a 4th, which is how we got True Flame).

I would say the whole endless fight between two players has always been a part of ESO, and this goes back to Beta, provided the two players knew what they were doing. It's just easier now and a dedicated tank can hold off more attackers.

Grimlok_S

What happens when two of these tanks run into each other?

CyrusArya

Grimlok_S wrote: »

What happens when two of these tanks run into each other?

Everyone dies of boredom.

NBrookus

Grimlok_S wrote: »

What happens when two of these tanks run into each other?

1) They build ult
2) They say hi because they know each other
3) They have a long and very boring fight
4) They tank each other until someone's zerg arrives

Pick 2