[VID] Why the Tanking Meta in PVP has become detrimental to PVP health .

Casul

NBrookus wrote: »

Grimlok_S wrote: »

What happens when two of these tanks run into each other?

1) They build ult
2) They say hi because they know each other
3) They have a long and very boring fight
4) They tank each other until someone's zerg arrives

Pick 2

So funny was last night I experienced 2 and 4. We sat with block and waited till our respective 20 man groups appeared. Was a glorious battle.

technohic

BuildMan wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Grimlok_S wrote: »

What happens when two of these tanks run into each other?

1) They build ult
2) They say hi because they know each other
3) They have a long and very boring fight
4) They tank each other until someone's zerg arrives

Pick 2

So funny was last night I experienced 2 and 4. We sat with block and waited till our respective 20 man groups appeared. Was a glorious battle.

Lol. I'm just picturing 2 guys just peering over their shields at each other.

FWIW; had a NB vs NB fight last night where I pressured, he cloaked and healed briefly while I spammed AOE to try to pull him out. He then pressured and I healed up. Then I pressured... It was going nowhere fast and I was far from tanky. He eventually cloaked and I didn't find him quickly, so I cloaked and went my separate way to my Zerg surf and I assume he went to whatever he was after at the time

I felt like we bonded

Casul

technohic wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Grimlok_S wrote: »

What happens when two of these tanks run into each other?

1) They build ult
2) They say hi because they know each other
3) They have a long and very boring fight
4) They tank each other until someone's zerg arrives

Pick 2

So funny was last night I experienced 2 and 4. We sat with block and waited till our respective 20 man groups appeared. Was a glorious battle.

Lol. I'm just picturing 2 guys just peering over their shields at each other.

FWIW; had a NB vs NB fight last night where I pressured, he cloaked and healed briefly while I spammed AOE to try to pull him out. He then pressured and I healed up. Then I pressured... It was going nowhere fast and I was far from tanky. He eventually cloaked and I didn't find him quickly, so I cloaked and went my separate way to my Zerg surf and I assume he went to whatever he was after at the time

I felt like we bonded

Most of the time it was me and him spamming emotes at each other. We understand that neither of us is going anywhere so may as well enjoy the company of a fellow tank. It's like a giant underground community created to aggravate others.

Drakkdjinn

Try NoCP

Takes-No-Prisoner

CyrusArya wrote: »

Grimlok_S wrote: »

What happens when two of these tanks run into each other?

Everyone dies of boredom.

But, what if no one is around?

vortexman11

The whole issue of the "tank meta" is so much more complex than people think. It's something that has been in ESO from the beginning and patch after patch continues to exist, and I'm doubtful it will ever be truly taken out of the game. People have to understand that this whole issue stems from what we love most about the game, the lack of skill cooldowns, the preference of active defenses (Blocking, Rolling, Shielding, Healing, Buffs) over passive defenses (Phys/Spell Resist, Health Regen), the abundance of sets, and the build freedom given to us.

Back months ago, I used to tank on my mDK, it was all I did for a while because for a fair amount of time mDKs wouldn't even dare step foot in Cyrodiil, I'm not trying to be conceited or what not but I used to tank 15+ people almost indefinitely, back at a time before Desert Rose was buffed, before Reactive, before Malubeth was bugged, before heavy armour buffs. When people would whisper me and ask me what I was wearing, to their surprise I'd tell them "I'm in 5 light". Why was I in 5 light? Because nothing made you tankier than the ability to actively maintain heals, shields, keep yourself purged, and keep up debuffs/buffs, sustain was everything.

Now how does that translate into the game now? Look at any "purely" specced tank build, and you'll see that gear wise it isn't very different than a mid tier DPS build, the major differences you'll find are in enchants, attributes, skills, and mundus stones. Look at Sev Drac, currently one of the strongest tanks on PC NA, he tanks using a sustain set and a damage set. His insane survivability comes from his understanding of sets and how they work and synergize with his skills in order to max out his healing and overall survivability.

What does this mean? ZOS can nerf the sets, and it'll effect well rounded builds more than the tanks, ZOS can nerf sustain, but thats already been done multiple times, they can change skills but that is again another blanket nerf that'll effect everyone equally.

Any real long lasting fix to what people call the "tank meta" will require a total overhaul of almost every game mechanic, because the most effective form of tanking ESO has seen takes advantage of all of them.

Now that all of that has been said, I have to point out that every build, even purely specced tanks, have a weakness. Some are more tedious to kill than others, but all builds have their faults.

Takes-No-Prisoner

vortexman11 wrote: »

Now that all of that has been said, I have to point out that every build, even purely specced tanks, have a weakness. Some are more tedious to kill than others, but all builds have their faults.

Rohamad_Ali

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Now that all of that has been said, I have to point out that every build, even purely specced tanks, have a weakness. Some are more tedious to kill than others, but all builds have their faults.

Yes . He is correct . They all have the same weakness .

Takes-No-Prisoner

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Now that all of that has been said, I have to point out that every build, even purely specced tanks, have a weakness. Some are more tedious to kill than others, but all builds have their faults.

Yes . He is correct . They all have the same weakness .

hahaha at least the lady isn't spilling a coffee cup onto his laptop

But full circle back here, debuffs is what kills most DK tanks. Killing resources with/without poison is a close second and is applicable to all tanky builds out there.

If my stamDK gets smacked with a heal debuff, game becomes legit hard mode til it wares off. TIL it wears off, it's kite central.

geonsocal

Grimlok_S wrote: »

What happens when two of these tanks run into each other?

pieratsos

amir412 wrote: »

I really dont get those "Nerf tanks builds",
If u wanna build a tank that cant kill any good players, its your choice.
ZOS needs to give this option too, as every MMO has it.

There is a difference between being tanky because of player skill and being tanky because the game carries you.

If you so much as light attack some people they pop snb ult, resto ult, trees. And no i cant ignore them when they spam stampede heroic lotus fan daggers silver bolts etc. I cant even move half the time.

These days its like im playing with prety much 100% uptime on major defile and minor maim. You run them out of resources? Who gives a [snip] when they have 30k+ hp and things like pirate skeleton, troll king, undeath, reactive etc pop left right and center. Its stupid.

Whats next? A set applying major maim to anyone light attacking you and giving you major protection and major vitality? But then again why would they need major protection. They already have it.

[Edited for profanity]

IxSTALKERxI

Not sure what to add to this thread other than a quick history lesson which some of you may find insightful. Tanking in PvP has changed quite a bit since launch.

During the first year of the game, tank builds weren't as survivable in 1v1 or 1v2 scenario's. They couldn't sustain their resources forever, and they had to sacrifice their self healing capabilities. Tanking was only possible when surrounded by lots of enemies to build ultimate quickly dynamically and sustain through battle roar / inhale, or get lots of siphoning attack procs with sap essence heals. This was quite balanced as it was easy to wear these players down if you caught them on their own or when they weren't inside a group of enemies as they couldn't sustain themselves. It also helped the outnumbered side which helped with overall balance of fights. The more outnumbered you were, the more survivable you became. This was good balance design.

The first tank that came to mind as being strong in 1v1 (due to obnoxious forum threads) was 'shaliza the unkillable' using malubeth and master sword on a DK, but even they were killed 1v1 despite claiming otherwise.

As time has gone on, dynamic ult gen was removed, more and hard counters have been implemented, and mechanics that increased survivablily and sustain the more you became outnumbered has been nerfed. On top of this, the power creep has gone to the point where you don't need any of these things anyway, as you can have infinate sustain in a 1v1 just through CP, and gear. More and more gear sets have been added that give ways to survive solo and sustain yourself when you aren't even outnumbered.

As a result of this you get the gameplay/meta you see today.

now... where is my zerg invite?

Publius_Scipio

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Not sure what to add to this thread other than a quick history lesson which some of you may find insightful. Tanking in PvP has changed quite a bit since launch.

During the first year of the game, tank builds weren't as survivable in 1v1 or 1v2 scenario's. They couldn't sustain their resources forever, and they had to sacrifice their self healing capabilities. Tanking was only possible when surrounded by lots of enemies to build ultimate quickly dynamically and sustain through battle roar / inhale, or get lots of siphoning attack procs with sap essence heals. This was quite balanced as it was easy to wear these players down if you caught them on their own or when they weren't inside a group of enemies as they couldn't sustain themselves. It also helped the outnumbered side which helped with overall balance of fights. The more outnumbered you were, the more survivable you became. This was good balance design.

The first tank that came to mind as being strong in 1v1 (due to obnoxious forum threads) was 'shaliza the unkillable' using malubeth and master sword on a DK, but even they were killed 1v1 despite claiming otherwise.

As time has gone on, dynamic ult gen was removed, more and hard counters have been implemented, and mechanics that increased survivablily and sustain the more you became outnumbered has been nerfed. On top of this, the power creep has gone to the point where you don't need any of these things anyway, as you can have infinate sustain in a 1v1 just through CP, and gear. More and more gear sets have been added that give ways to survive solo and sustain yourself when you aren't even outnumbered.

As a result of this you get the gameplay/meta you see today.

now... where is my zerg invite?

Ah yes Sheliza The Unkillable. Daughter of Murder Thumbs and Xylena Lazarow. Scourge of the Heart of Tamriel (Cyrodiil). She lived in the age of Ezareth son of Schmendrick the magician, WWE tag team champions Tea Pot and Pixy Stix, Brandon South GA, WRX and his Tinker Bell esque sidekick Winnimae in Decibel, Saint Columba of the COVENANT, the nefarious duo of Blinxy and his right hand man Bishop of (small biceps) Souls, the wild free spirited warrior Roechacca, Zazebra the Wicked Wombat of the Southeast Pacific and his caretakers Rylana and Brizz, the eccentric Blade Boques and his ever loyal pet flying squirrel, Lefty Lucy patient zero werewolf, and the MIGHTY PAUL SAGE watched over Tamriel (humble yourself Miat in the shadow of his memory).... Just to name a few.

It was during this time that a then young SypherPK, he must have been what? Sixteen at the time? Still in love with the anime maiden Atecherries.... Long before he signed his sponsorship contracts with Doritos, Mountain Dew, and Razer.... Long before a then fourteen year old Velukodi snuck out of his parents house to wait in line at the local Gamestop to have Sypher autograph his physical copy of ESO and to take a selfie with him.... A young SypherPK with the hair product in his hair still not dry, looking to make a name for himself (and with aspirations of one day getting an invite to move into the YouTube house with the FaZe Clan kids) challenged The Unkillable to a fight to the death.

It would be this boy, this young man, who would strike true ending the reign of Sheliza The Unkillable.... Legend has it that Sheliza The Unkillable was buried in a shallow grave in the exact spot where she fell in combat. There was only a small marker that marked the grave which has since been lost to time. Historians and archeologists to this day still search for the grave of the "super tank".

- The writings of Publius Scipio 2E 642

https://youtu.be/mCK_D_nc7Lo

Subversus

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Not sure what to add to this thread other than a quick history lesson which some of you may find insightful. Tanking in PvP has changed quite a bit since launch.

During the first year of the game, tank builds weren't as survivable in 1v1 or 1v2 scenario's. They couldn't sustain their resources forever, and they had to sacrifice their self healing capabilities. Tanking was only possible when surrounded by lots of enemies to build ultimate quickly dynamically and sustain through battle roar / inhale, or get lots of siphoning attack procs with sap essence heals. This was quite balanced as it was easy to wear these players down if you caught them on their own or when they weren't inside a group of enemies as they couldn't sustain themselves. It also helped the outnumbered side which helped with overall balance of fights. The more outnumbered you were, the more survivable you became. This was good balance design.

The first tank that came to mind as being strong in 1v1 (due to obnoxious forum threads) was 'shaliza the unkillable' using malubeth and master sword on a DK, but even they were killed 1v1 despite claiming otherwise.

As time has gone on, dynamic ult gen was removed, more and hard counters have been implemented, and mechanics that increased survivablily and sustain the more you became outnumbered has been nerfed. On top of this, the power creep has gone to the point where you don't need any of these things anyway, as you can have infinate sustain in a 1v1 just through CP, and gear. More and more gear sets have been added that give ways to survive solo and sustain yourself when you aren't even outnumbered.

As a result of this you get the gameplay/meta you see today.

now... where is my zerg invite?

Ah yes Sheliza The Unkillable. Daughter of Murder Thumbs and Xylena Lazarow. Scourge of the Heart of Tamriel (Cyrodiil). She lived in the age of Ezareth son of Schmendrick the magician, WWE tag team champions Tea Pot and Pixy Stix, Brandon South GA, WRX and his Tinker Bell esque sidekick Winnimae in Decibel, Saint Columba of the COVENANT, the nefarious duo of Blinxy and his right hand man Bishop of (small biceps) Souls, the wild free spirited warrior Roechacca, Zazebra the Wicked Wombat of the Southeast Pacific and his caretakers Rylana and Brizz, the eccentric Blade Boques and his ever loyal pet flying squirrel, Lefty Lucy patient zero werewolf, and the MIGHTY PAUL SAGE watched over Tamriel (humble yourself Miat in the shadow of his memory).... Just to name a few.

It was during this time that a then young SypherPK, he must have been what? Sixteen at the time? Still in love with the anime maiden Atecherries.... Long before he signed his sponsorship contracts with Doritos, Mountain Dew, and Razer.... Long before a then fourteen year old Velukodi snuck out of his parents house to wait in line at the local Gamestop to have Sypher autograph his physical copy of ESO and to take a selfie with him.... A young SypherPK with the hair product in his hair still not dry, looking to make a name for himself (and with aspirations of one day getting an invite to move into the YouTube house with the FaZe Clan kids) challenged The Unkillable to a fight to the death.

It would be this boy, this young man, who would strike true ending the reign of Sheliza The Unkillable.... Legend has it that Sheliza The Unkillable was buried in a shallow grave in the exact spot where she fell in combat. There was only a small marker that marked the grave which has since been lost to time. Historians and archeologists to this day still search for the grave of the "super tank".

- The writings of Publius Scipio 2E 642

https://youtu.be/mCK_D_nc7Lo

I get goosebumps every time I read your posts

Valencer

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Not sure what to add to this thread other than a quick history lesson which some of you may find insightful. Tanking in PvP has changed quite a bit since launch.

During the first year of the game, tank builds weren't as survivable in 1v1 or 1v2 scenario's. They couldn't sustain their resources forever, and they had to sacrifice their self healing capabilities. Tanking was only possible when surrounded by lots of enemies to build ultimate quickly dynamically and sustain through battle roar / inhale, or get lots of siphoning attack procs with sap essence heals. This was quite balanced as it was easy to wear these players down if you caught them on their own or when they weren't inside a group of enemies as they couldn't sustain themselves. It also helped the outnumbered side which helped with overall balance of fights. The more outnumbered you were, the more survivable you became. This was good balance design.

The first tank that came to mind as being strong in 1v1 (due to obnoxious forum threads) was 'shaliza the unkillable' using malubeth and master sword on a DK, but even they were killed 1v1 despite claiming otherwise.

As time has gone on, dynamic ult gen was removed, more and hard counters have been implemented, and mechanics that increased survivablily and sustain the more you became outnumbered has been nerfed. On top of this, the power creep has gone to the point where you don't need any of these things anyway, as you can have infinate sustain in a 1v1 just through CP, and gear. More and more gear sets have been added that give ways to survive solo and sustain yourself when you aren't even outnumbered.

As a result of this you get the gameplay/meta you see today.

now... where is my zerg invite?

Exactly.

Back then most people weren't wearing heavy armour either. People didnt have tons of passive mitigation and survivability on top of having competitive sustain. (let's face it, Constitution + heavy attack +25% resources is very much comparable to what light and medium give in the current meta)

You had to actually make good use of all your abilities to survive...

GreenSoup2HoT

reinstate a stamina gankers potenail and cryodill will solve itself.

Publius_Scipio

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

reinstate a stamina gankers potenail and cryodill will solve itself.

You'll make Miat flip out.

Escorpiao_Noturno

Vortexman, Draconis, Hatori, Gorrag = INCREDIBLE TANKS

technohic

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

reinstate a stamina gankers potenail and cryodill will solve itself.

I use Miats like crazy. Makes it so you hardly have to permablock as you see when big range hitters are coming in. That's just keeping bow blades away though. The good NBs are pretty much in your face instantly

Rickter

Fought a group of 15-18 last night. they had at least 5-8 magicka templars. It was an absolute miserable time fighting them.

can you imagine that? the emperor, and at least 5-6 other of his group of 15 all magplars piggy backing breath of life off each other? while built with heavy and sword and board?

It just wasnt fun guys. like, it wasnt fun. groups like that gave CP pvp a bad name.

OdinForge

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Not sure what to add to this thread other than a quick history lesson which some of you may find insightful. Tanking in PvP has changed quite a bit since launch.

During the first year of the game, tank builds weren't as survivable in 1v1 or 1v2 scenario's. They couldn't sustain their resources forever, and they had to sacrifice their self healing capabilities. Tanking was only possible when surrounded by lots of enemies to build ultimate quickly dynamically and sustain through battle roar / inhale, or get lots of siphoning attack procs with sap essence heals. This was quite balanced as it was easy to wear these players down if you caught them on their own or when they weren't inside a group of enemies as they couldn't sustain themselves. It also helped the outnumbered side which helped with overall balance of fights. The more outnumbered you were, the more survivable you became. This was good balance design.

The first tank that came to mind as being strong in 1v1 (due to obnoxious forum threads) was 'shaliza the unkillable' using malubeth and master sword on a DK, but even they were killed 1v1 despite claiming otherwise.

As time has gone on, dynamic ult gen was removed, more and hard counters have been implemented, and mechanics that increased survivablily and sustain the more you became outnumbered has been nerfed. On top of this, the power creep has gone to the point where you don't need any of these things anyway, as you can have infinate sustain in a 1v1 just through CP, and gear. More and more gear sets have been added that give ways to survive solo and sustain yourself when you aren't even outnumbered.

As a result of this you get the gameplay/meta you see today.

now... where is my zerg invite?

Pretty much this for everyone who played before 1.6 and the removal of soft caps. It's ironic that some of the best dueling in this game occurred during that time, where people could sustain themselves against larger numbers with softcaps and dynamic ult.

technohic

Rickter wrote: »

Fought a group of 15-18 last night. they had at least 5-8 magicka templars. It was an absolute miserable time fighting them.

can you imagine that? the emperor, and at least 5-6 other of his group of 15 all magplars piggy backing breath of life off each other? while built with heavy and sword and board?

It just wasnt fun guys. like, it wasnt fun. groups like that gave CP pvp a bad name.

Was this Dracyrys? If so; they probably could do this without BOL, heavy armor, or sword and shield. Could do with healing springs and barriers and other shields or whatever group support you can imagine. You need an equally coordinated group or to somehow get them in a spot to keep multiple siege on them; otherwise you're just being a lemming.

There's just a general force multiplier when targets are blobbed making it hard to hit the same target consecutively; but heals and buffs find them every time.

Rickter

technohic wrote: »

Was this Dracyrys? .

No this was not <Dracarys> It was a combined effort of <Generations of Heroes> (they were rocking the multiple templars) and <Raging Potatos>

I try not to use siege and generally conduct our groups against it. I didnt say we got stomped by them. I said it wasnt fun to fight against them. It was boring.

We killed them over and over. they had the numbers and defensive positions several times and emperor.

the counter says 13 but it was closer to 15-18 with on of my guildies reporting 16 on their counter:



As you can see we had 9 players (one was offline) and they werent giving much AP as we had killed them so much that night. My streak of 18 was ended at the time of this screen shot.

NOTE: this was shor btw. there was a large AD group out there too. So everyone can stop saying Shor is a dead campaign now kthxbye

NBrookus

Rickter wrote: »

No this was not <Dracarys> It was a combined effort of <Generations of Heroes> (they were rocking the multiple templars) and <Raging Potatos>

Generations of Honor; they usually play Vivec but one of their guildies had emp. He actually was in Vivec for a while last night.

Raging Potatoes usually plays Vivec too.

parkham

I haven't read every single comment, sorry - What exactly is the problem here?

Is this a skill line problem, a CP problem, or a gear problem , or a mix of both?

Rickter

parkham wrote: »

I haven't read every single comment, sorry - What exactly is the problem here?

Is this a skill line problem, a CP problem, or a gear problem , or a mix of both?

Its a: "too tanky hard to kill makes pvp no fun" problem. for the various reasons detailed in this thread.

I dont necessarily agree anyone is "unkillable" - but there are certainly hard to kill builds and it makes pvp boring for me.

Rohamad_Ali

What does it take it get any input from a Dev these days in PVP ? I don't care if it's a we think it's great reaction , totally opposite of mine , I would just like to read their thoughts on this . Doesn't require an agreement at all . Common , I will scour the Internet for a way to entice a dev to speak their mind for just a sentence or two . @Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler ?



Here is a random girl belly dancing for your entertainment after sharing your thoughts with us .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=goTaVjCfEyE

Beat keep OT fair , here is a random guy doing the same .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c29HV9aFCaM

Don't make me break out the big guns and post kitten gifs .

DHale

Wait, op don't/didn't you run with a tank player while you sniped from the side? Pretty sure X****a and you ran together in the not distant past.

Koolio

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

What does it take it get any input from a Dev these days in PVP ? I don't care if it's a we think it's great reaction , totally opposite of mine , I would just like to read their thoughts on this . Doesn't require an agreement at all . Common , I will scour the Internet for a way to entice a dev to speak their mind for just a sentence or two . @Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler ?



Here is a random girl belly dancing for your entertainment after sharing your thoughts with us .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=goTaVjCfEyE

Beat keep OT fair , here is a random guy doing the same .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c29HV9aFCaM

Don't make me break out the big guns and post kitten gifs .

when was the last time they did give their input?

Right now NA PS4 2 bar each in Vivec. Empty in ALL other campaigns. We need that input like last year.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Rohamad_Ali

DHale wrote: »

Wait, op don't/didn't you run with a tank player while you sniped from the side? Pretty sure X****a and you ran together in the not distant past.

Rohamad's-DK is my tank I am goofing around on in the video , the Khajiit . I'm not sure what you are asking with the x*** ?